Hi, everybody.
I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and this is Talking Dateline.
And our guest today, Craig Melvin.
Hi.
Mank.
Honored.
Honored to be on, sir.
Delighted to have you here.
You've done this wonderful two-hour Dateline about...
The Murdoch case, which, you know, one of the biggest true crime cases to come along in a while.
Also joining us is one of the producers of that episode, the fabulous Carol Gable.
Hi, Carol.
Hey, friend.
How are you?
It's so great to see you because normally, you know, you're just a voice on a phone.
We're divided by a whole country, yes.
Let me say now that if you have not seen this episode on the Murdoch case or if you have not listened to it in podcast form, it is the podcast right below this one on the list of podcasts.
If you haven't seen it or heard it, you can watch it on TV or you can listen to it in podcast form.
Do that, then come back here.
Okay, let's talk Dateline.
This is a story and this is kind of a challenge, because a lot of times when you do stories on Dateline, the audience doesn't really know anything about it.
It's from a town that people don't go to all the time, and it's about people that they haven't heard of.
But that's not this story.
Lots of people know this.
No doubt.
I mean, I would maintain, Mike, that was one of the biggest challenges with this one.
It was a case that people who had been following it from the beginning, which was...
You know, more than two years ago now, the people who've been following it were familiar with all of the ins and outs, the twists and turns.
So this time...
The goal was to lift the veil.
If you will pull back the curtain and take them inside the investigation.
And to do it, we talked to the folks who are on the front lines.
I mean he's, you know, he's the lead investigator, the sled chief, a guy named Mark Keel, who I don't know if he's ever done a national TV interview, but that was the goal this time.
And I thought it really worked.
I mean, those cops generally don't talk.
I started out as a reporter in South Carolina and I have to tell you in three decades I have never known them again to let you talk to them about any investigation that they have brought to trial ever.
But I do think Josh, I do think part of their motivation this time was they were acutely aware of the scrutiny.
They did not fully appreciate the way that they were treated in the media by some and certainly during the course of the trial by the defense attorneys.
So I think part of their motivation was to say, hey, Guys, we're really good at what we do.
Here's how we do it.
Here's how we did it this time.
And Chief Keel actually choked up when he talked about how proud he was of his investigators.
I mean, the lead investigator in this case was You know, it consumed him day and night.
And then on top of it, he's dealing with his own personal loss.
And so I think that was part of the motivation.
It wasn't just to beat their chest and say, oh my God, we're so great.
I think it was a sort of a belated response to some of the criticism that they'd received before during, even after the trial.
Well, and it seems to be sort of a recognition that you know the criminal justice system now sort of involves by all parties a certain amount of PR.
I mean lawyers are expected to sort of zealously defend their clients, not just in the courtroom but in front of the TV cameras on the courthouse steps.
Correct.
And then later on in that one on one interview, you know, with you or with me or somebody like that.
And law enforcement for a long time has not played.
They have not wanted to join that game in a lot of cases.
SLED certainly, you know, an example of that.
And I think maybe this is a realization that like, look you know, public opinion is getting cooked by the other side all the time.
You know, it's not just the jury pool.
It's also what people think of you after the fact and during the appellate process.
And I think I think. opening up is a smart call.
You have to choose somebody that you trust is going to tell the story fairly and accurately, which I think you guys exactly did.
Thank you, Josh.
But now to be clear Josh, Part of the reason that they talked is and you've worked with Carol Gable long enough to know this it's very difficult to say no to Carol Gable when she's asking you every day, for the better part of 18 months, to do something.
So I do think a number of- If you figure out how to do that, could you like send me an email?
But I think honestly, I think some of the- finally relented, just so Kira would stop calling them, just so she would stop showing up at the office.
Well, you know, I think there's determination.
Now, I have to tell you, I have one more interview in my sights on this story.
And I told that person yesterday that don't think you're off the hook.
Oh, dear God.
Yeah.
You want to tell us who that is or that's a secret because you haven't booked it yet?
I haven't quite booked it yet.
It's probably Alec Murdoch.
Well, that goes without saying, you know, fellow redhead and everything.
You know, you both have mentioned when this story broke.
The message that started coming out from the family and other people in the community was we're only talking to people from South Carolina, which was this way of sort of, you know, giving the Heisman to the national press, right?
And the problem is with that, Josh, Yeah.
Well, the the problem for them was that we have a correspondent who worked in South Carolina and knows his way around.
And we have you who is, you know, like a kudzu.
Yeah.
That is the most apt description I think I've ever heard of Carol Gable.
Y'all are killing me.
She's essential and omnipresent.
Right.
And won't let go.
You know, it's interesting, Josh, because you're right to a certain extent.
There was a natural skepticism from the very beginning, as there frequently is in the South.
There was a reluctance to talk to folks who were not familiar with the –
The ways of the South.
But I also think you know one of the things that helped us with the story, one of the things that's continued to help us.
You know, Carol has lived in South Carolina and covered South Carolina a bit longer than I have.
But I did have the benefit of working in Columbia and you know, a lot of the contacts that we both have are people that we've known for decades.
20, 25, 30 years.
And a lot of the central players in this case are folks that I've hung out with and grew up with, and went to summer camp with and called on frequently as the local reporters.
So you know I mean Mank.
You've been doing this long enough to know that I'd say 75 of access in a good interview is just trust.
And if people trust you, they're more than willing to open up to you and perhaps tell you things that they wouldn't tell other people.
People are still concerned down here that they're going to have banjo music behind all their video and dripping moss.
And here we go with Tara all over the place.
And I think they realize that Craig and I actually...
Our South Carolinians and, you know, we certainly see beyond the stereotype.
And I don't know about you Craig, but sometimes I get a little sensitive about I must not have all my teeth, or you know other things like that.
No question.
No question.
Yes, very much so.
And my favorite is it continues to be even now.
You're from South Carolina.
Where's your accent?
Have an accent.
Where are you from?
How long were you there?
Calm down.
There are so many interesting and unique things about the Lowcountry, one of which is Craig.
You and I have interviewed a few people that have the true, authentic Lowcountry accent.
Oh, yeah.
Very few people that...
Does that still survive?
I think the Cook family, they have it.
Someone you'll hear about, you heard about in this story, Rogan Gibson.
Absolutely.
And everywhere you go, at first I was thinking, are you just hell-bent on telling me how old I am?
Because people kept saying, Miss Carol.
And I'm going...
I'm not your kindergarten teacher and I'm not 82 years old, but it's just a sign of respect.
And you will hear a lot of people of Paul's friends describe her as Miss Maggie or Miss Gloria, the housekeeper.
It's just a style and respect that they have there.
One of the things that emerged for me something that I sort of wasn't aware of when this story broke and then as it kind of unspooled toward trial was what a good liar Alec Murtaugh was, at least at the beginning, right.
Yeah.
Even in the first conversation with the cops, he's talking about his son, who's dead, in the present tense.
He says he's such a good boy.
Murderers frequently make that mistake and talk about the person in the past tense, because they're the ones that put them in the past tense.
I thought to myself, oh, this guy's going to be very hard to crack.
And one of the things that I—one of the luxuries I think you had in telling this story was you didn't have to pretend we don't know who it is.
By now, we know.
So this is a story in which you're both explaining the story, but also taking people inside.
And—
That's something you usually don't get.
You know, sometimes they'll give you some details, but like sitting in the front seat of the car where the actual interview is conducted.
Yeah. you know, is great.
And I love the idea that like these cars are, you know, they're lit there.
They got air conditioning in a very humid climate or if it's raining, there's some shelter there.
And they're like the perfect little portable interrogation room.
Yeah, it's a mobile interrogation unit.
But you know it's fascinating Mac, and I'm glad you brought it up because I think that's one of the things that people have found most compelling about the story from the beginning.
There are and have been so many...
Unique characters.
Alec Murdoch, as sinister as he has proven to be, undeniably the most unique of the characters.
But I think that people from the very beginning found it hard to wrap their head around the idea that someone who has achieved so much professional success, material wealth, generational success, if you will that someone like that would not just be capable of committing crimes, just myriad crimes, but someone like that could be capable of and the Attorney General of South Carolina said this kill your wife.
Okay, we've seen that before.
That's not, but someone like that, to kill their son the way that he did.
Even the diehard true crime buffs From the very beginning, they were like, no way.
Not possible.
We've got to be missing something.
Not a guy like that.
And then as layer after layer is peeled back...
You're left with the obvious answer.
Like, well, it couldn't be anybody else.
Hard though it was to believe.
Impossible.
Yeah.
And that, I think, is the same reason why people are sort of fascinated by crimes involving celebrities because, you know, we have this like belief that, like the rich and famous and although the Murdoch's may not have been famous, they certainly seem to be rich.
You know, they're better than we are.
They're our royalty.
They're not shallow and venal like the rest of us.
And they're not capable of these horrible things that we do to each other.
Well, they're not.
They're just like everybody else.
And they're fully capable of the kind of horrific conduct that other people are.
That said...
Killing your family to avoid embarrassment is astonishing.
It is absolutely astonishing no matter who you are.
It is astonishing.
And one thing that we have in this particular program is we're able to show how close they came not to solving the case.
Paul's cell phone.
You've heard it said that Paul essentially solved his own murder, but that cell phone might as well have been a grenade if you touched it the wrong way it would crash and you'd never get anything out of it.
And so when they decide to not try a lot of passwords because they didn't know how many tries they had before, it would implode.
Had that happened, The Attorney General told us, it might have been hard to even charge Alex Murdoch.
You've led into something I wanted to ask about, which was the you know the extent to which this really was solved by sort of this combination of shoe leather detective work and the digital work that was done.
I mean cracking the cell phone, but also not just his phone, But you know, Alex's phone.
The cessation of activity on their phones which enabled to give investigators the time of death.
The data from GM.
So much of the evidence here was supplied not by you know squeezing information out of people in little interrogation rooms or the front seat of cars, but by you know digital information that was recoverable after a lot of hard work.
Kind of makes you wonder Carol, if this is a crown that would have been solved 20, 25 years ago, right?
Well, it does.
And the wonky part, as you know, the court proceedings were broadcast around the world.
And there's this surreal moment where GM they dial up right in the middle of the trial and go.
I think we've got some things you might be interested in.
And it was huge.
I mean, then they could track exactly how fast or slow Alec Murdoch was driving that night.
But by the way, to do it, they had to pull it all nighter during the trial.
I mean, they had a weekend to make that data make sense, which is again, it's a fascinating part of the story.
Which is a huge part of sort of forensic law enforcement now.
Because it's not just getting somebody's phone and getting all the records and then time-consumingly figuring out which which cone of the tower the phone was talking to.
But it's also presenting that in a way that can make sense to a jury because, you know, juries are not forensic scientists.
So you've got to explain it in a way that makes it clear to people which they really did in this case.
Yeah, they did.
I'm glad you mentioned the jury, Josh, because that's also a big part of this episode.
You know, we got to actually pick the brains of a few of them after the verdict.
And I found it most interesting that all of the evidence that we've been talking about, all of that was obviously very important.
But the jurors that we talked to, they said they leaned heavily on Alec Murdoch's own testimony on the stand.
His demeanor, you know, how he looked.
All that fancy timeline stuff was great.
And the GPS, it was wonderful.
But we just, we smelled him and he didn't smell right to us.
And that's essentially what they said.
And the flip side of that is that in trials in which the defendant is more persuasive than Mr Murdoch was at his trial, sometimes that can overwhelm forensic data and forensic testimony.
Sometimes you know if you've got a persuasive story to tell or if you're good at telling your phony story.
Sometimes that makes a big difference.
They never found the murder weapon.
You were talking about how you know.
If they hadn't cracked the digital devices, Alec Murdoch might still be walking around.
Murder weapon never appeared anywhere.
Yeah no listen, and that was something that prosecutors, in fact the Attorney General, talked about that.
I mean, that was something that did concern them.
Not only were they not able to find the weapons, there was no blood evidence that directly tied Murdoch to the murders that they were able to, Couldn't find any blood on his clothes or anything like that.
Right.
Not anything that they were able to establish concretely.
I have found that part of the case...
Because, by the way, we're not talking about one weapon.
We're talking about two separate weapons.
I mean, there were two different guns used to kill Maggie and Paul.
But...
We're also talking about 1700 acres.
We're also talking about someone who was intimately familiar with the geography of Hampton County, knew it well.
So you could make the argument that if anyone was going to be able to get rid of two family guns, it would have been Alec Murdoch.
No allegation at any time that somebody might have helped him move the or dispose of evidence.
No, prosecutors never said that to us, Mank.
Law enforcement never said that to us.
But during the course of over the last two years, I have talked to a number of people associated with the case who do find it hard to believe with regard to the financial crimes, specifically and explicitly for the purposes of this conversation.
A number of folks in law enforcement have said to pull off what he pulled off for as long as he did.
Likely would have required more assistance.
From folks exceeding the number of people who've been charged.
Does that make sense?
Sure.
Maybe the willful ignorance of other people.
Correct.
A lot of folks tend to look away when everyone's making money.
Yeah.
All that money he stole, not recoverable and not able to be brought back to anybody.
That sir, is the question I have probably asked more people during more interviews over the last two years.
And I asked the Attorney General of South Carolina that very question because, You know to your point, literally millions of dollars have gone missing, dollars that have been stolen from clients, dollars that have not turned up in any of Murdoch's accounts.
That's the biggest question for me, right?
I mean, some of it he clearly used to live on, right?
I mean, they have multiple residences and, you know.
But the math doesn't add up.
The math doesn't add up.
Right.
So it's unlikely we're going to come up with some bank account with all that money sitting in it.
Highly unlikely, they say.
There's been one big piece of news just as we're recording this.
So let's talk about that, involving the judge that you interviewed.
Judge Clifton Newman, who's been on the bench in South Carolina more than 20 years.
He's got a fascinating backstory himself, by the way.
And his daughter is also a judge in South Carolina.
But yes, it was revealed that Judge Newman is recusing himself from any of the hearings moving forward, but only those hearings that pertain to the double murder trial.
It's also important to note here that the judge is retiring at the end of the year as well, but the fact that he is recusing himself, It's a big deal.
It's a big deal.
As you know, the case is on appeal.
There are allegations of jury tampering.
One of the reasons cited for his recusal is he will likely be called as a witness in And in the jury tampering case, because the allegation by Murdoch's defense is the court clerk, who would have worked very closely with the judge, said something to the jurors urging them to convict and that the judge presumably could have known that or could have heard it or could have been a witness to that.
So that's why he's stepping back.
One of the reasons that he is, he is stepping back.
Yes.
I love, by the way, when you said, is there a lot of pressure on this?
And he's like, no.
No, got it.
This is what I do for a living.
It's fine.
And you know what?
Folks who followed the trial.
I think a lot of them were sort of taken aback by how cool and calm and reserved he was.
But again, full disclosure, you know, I used to...
Spend a lot of time hanging out with the judge's son and his nephew and his niece.
I've known the judge for years.
That's kind of how he's always been.
Like, it's hard to even fathom him raising his voice.
He's always been just right here in terms of his temperament.
And there have been other high-profile trials that he's conducted as well.
But No, no, I don't think he was.
He was legitimately surprised initially by the amount of attention the case was getting.
And he was also surprised...
After the trial, the amount of attention that he personally was getting and he's not the kind of guy that likes attention.
Okay.
Interesting.
So let's talk a little bit about Blanca.
Okay.
I'm guessing she was maybe just as difficult to persuade as the investigators were.
Well, she was very shy and very concerned because she had become a target in some ways for social media.
And, you know, had some pretty disturbing things said about her, not based on fact at all.
But I mean, just having your name bantied about was off-putting to her.
And I think as...
We got to know her more.
I think there was a feeling that some of the people involved in the case and around it had sort of treated her, even though she was the housekeeper, as being invisible when she had a lot to say.
And she saw many things and could add a dimension that she thought and I think we believe was very valuable.
I thought it was great.
Although I got to say when she said they treated me like family, my first thought was this is a family where you don't want them to treat you like family.
That's a fair point, right?
That's a fair point.
I had not considered that.
You know what, though?
I will say there are not a lot of sympathetic characters in this story.
But she's one.
Blanca.
Because she makes a good point.
And it's a point that I did not consider until I talked to her.
She can't get another job.
Everyone knows she was the Murdoch housekeeper.
I mean, she's like a sideshow at the circus.
And it's really frustrating for her because...
She did nothing wrong.
She didn't do anything wrong.
Never charged with any crime, never considered any kind of suspect, but just the notoriety.
Yeah, and you don't really think about that part of the story.
Yeah, and we see it in a couple of other stories.
I mean not just this one but other stories which have gotten some national attention, in which sort of the trailing edge of public interest ended up making public figures out of people who really weren't involved in the story but were accused on social media or were suddenly started being talked about in a certain way.
And the next thing you know, you're known by people who you have no association with at all.
And they're making their own judgments about who you are, how you've lived your life and your possible guilt or innocence.
When in fact there was never any allegation of anything.
Correct.
Blanca has Bubba now.
Yes.
I know that's a question that a lot of people had.
Yeah.
You know, it's funny.
I didn't know that until maybe about a month ago.
And not to give away too.
I assume people who listen to the podcast have probably already seen the episode, but I love the way that the genius producers at Dateline decided to end the piece with.
It was just such a fitting tribute to arguably two of the only people in the whole story worthy of celebrating.
Yeah, no, it was great.
I thought that worked.
And Bubba, of course, was Maggie's dog.
And having him around all the time is, I think, very comforting to her.
Here's the thing throughout the trial and throughout your entire two-hour episode, some people said Alex.
Some people said Alex.
Right.
Some people say Murdoch.
Some people said Murtaugh.
Is that a southern thing?
What's going on there?
Let me answer that, because it's taken me two and a half years, I think, to get to the bottom of the correct pronunciation.
And it's hard to do if you're really not from the Lowcountry.
If you pronounce Alec Murdaugh's name correctly, as they do down there, instead of Alex, it's Alec.
And instead of Murdaugh, it's Murdaugh, like murder, but no R.
So Josh, what I've done for the purposes of broadcast to a national audience is I have taken the low country pronunciation and the phonetic spelling slash pronunciation.
And I have tried to sort of create a happy medium.
But it's funny because the executive producer of the Today Show, a guy named Tom Mazzarelli, who's a good friend, Shortly after the trial started he calls me up one day.
He's like, hey, I'm trying to file this trial.
Can you explain?
Now, keep in mind, you know, he's rarely left the five boroughs.
He's New York through and through.
He says, he said, correct.
Why does nobody down there go by their real names?
Everyone's got a nickname.
Even the dog.
Is his real name Bubba?
And he's like, I'm having a hard time following the case between Pawpaw and Alec and Mags and Bubba.
I was like, I don't even know who the characters are.
That's a fair point, Mass.
That's a fair point.
Confuse and conquer.
Confuse and conquer.
Confuse and conquer was actually the alternate title for Talking Dateline.
I want to thank Carol Gable for joining us and this rare cameo appearance.
Craig, I know you're going to be back for other Dateline episodes and of course, also see you all the time on the Today Show.
Thank you guys for joining us on Talking Dateline.
