Hello, I'm Keith Morrison.
I'm here with Andrea Canning, and we are Talking Dateline.
Hello, Andrea.
Hi, Keith.
How are you?
I'm good.
This episode is called A Girl Named Egypt.
If you haven't listened to the show yet, it's the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts you just chose from.
So go there and listen to it or watch the TV show on Peacock and then come back here.
And when you come back, I have some questions for Andrea.
And she has an extra bit of material for me from her interview with some of the investigators.
And later, Andrea and I will put our Dateline knowledge to the test with some trivia questions.
You only kind of know the answer to, I find.
Anyway, stay tuned for that.
And let's talk Dateline.
You do that so much better than me when you say let's talk Dateline.
I feel like it has much more gravitas.
Yes, that's good.
Really good.
You initially did this episode a few years ago, a couple of years ago.
And then you took another pass at it because you got more material, basically.
Is that correct?
Yes, we got the Michigan State police detectives, which we did not have at the time.
Sure.
As you know, it's always a letdown when you do not have the police who investigated the case in your dateline.
It makes it very difficult.
Of course.
They like to be careful.
But your new version, it's a difficult story for the people involved.
Very difficult.
But it was a good story.
Yeah.
And those investigators were certainly on the ball.
You know, this was a case where the family tried and tried and tried.
You know, DeWayne and Lindsay sent that email.
As they had so many times trying to get the local government on board.
Then finally they get that reply.
All that says get me off this email chain about this murdered woman, which is Egypt.
Like Egypt didn't matter.
And that was really the straw that I feel like broke the camel's back.
And then they got the call that the state police would be coming on board.
And thank God they did.
Those two worked so hard for so long to get somebody to pay attention to this case.
Egypt would have been Lindsay's sister-in-law, you know, which is really sad.
Those two were never able to have a relationship.
They were never able to be like sisters.
But for whatever reason...
Lindsay when she did hear about Egypt from D Wayne, just you know, took an instant passion to the case.
And, along with D Wayne, they just kept pounding the pavement and decided that they weren't going to let this go.
She didn't even know Egypt, and yet she pushed and pushed and pushed.
People kept trying to warn her off and make her go away, but she wouldn't.
And I just don't know where that determination would have come from.
I know, right?
Lindsay is D. Wayne's girlfriend at this point, right?
They were not married yet.
And so there's all these people saying, like, who are you?
You know, you just met DeWayne.
You've just come into our family here.
You're not even married and you're taking the lead.
And yet you can see why other members of the family would think that, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah, you could definitely see it.
And unfortunately, as you know, it caused this big rift in the family, which was...
Because you've already got.
One of your family members has been murdered.
Egypt, who sounds like such a wonderful woman?
And then on top of that, then now you've got this family that can't see eye to eye.
It changes everything about those families' lives.
It was so sad when I heard that they had had this rift in the family that never apparently has been.
Not healed.
And largely it focused around the suspicion of different suspects, correct?
The part of the family was convinced it was this ex-boyfriend and wouldn't get off that dime.
They were convinced it was Kenny.
I think because the police were convinced it was Kenny.
They even publicly named him as a person of interest.
And imagine if that's you and you know that you did not commit this murder, but the police are naming you in this tight-knit community.
That can destroy somebody's life.
Just imagine waking up every day And you're Kenny and you're in some kind of really bad Groundhog Day where you wake up every day and this community thinks that you killed someone.
This reminds me so much of a story that I did in Virginia, where a young girl, AJ Hadsall our viewers, listeners may remember her.
She.
She was murdered by her stepfather, but it was her former boyfriend Corey, who ends up being, you know, in the community, the prime suspect to a lot of people.
He was devastated by this thing.
It's a terrible, bad thing.
And Corey, we interviewed him for an episode of After the Verdict that we do.
And I actually started crying when I saw him, because for me just seeing him seeming in a much better space just made me really happy.
It still gets to you.
Yeah, it does.
I mean, I can't help it.
Like, this poor guy.
I had another case in Massachusetts that just came up recently.
Same thing, but the guy was under a clot of suspicion.
I think it was for about two decades.
And now he's been elected to some local official position, which made me so happy to hear that.
I know what he went through.
But it takes a while to rebuild and get your life back together after such serious accusations.
I mean, my producer, Sergey, has talked to Kenny.
I have not.
So I can't tell you too much about Kenny.
But in this case, it definitely was not good news. for Kenny.
I was absolutely fascinated by the surreptitious recording that Lindsay made of their meeting with the police officers.
It pointed up something that we run into, as you know a lot the certainty that a local police department has that it's on the right path.
It shows again that if you really care about a case, you can sit back and wait for the police to do their job, or you can just get in there and push push push push, push.
Dwayne and Lindsay just had different instincts about it.
They actually talked to Kenny and so did Egypt's mom.
And they felt like when they talked to Kenny, that really gave them the sense that he didn't do it.
And so they just had this gut feeling. feeling about it.
They were the heroes of the story.
They really were.
They were.
Yeah.
Lindsay started a podcast.
She has 30 some thousand people on TikTok and it's to help other families in their pursuit of justice.
Give them a little advice along the way.
Yeah, give them advice, profile their cases, tell them what she did, how they can get traction.
This is sort of a movement for her, right?
So it's beyond Egypt.
It's.
I want to help other people who have gone through or are going through something similar to what we did.
I was interested in the fact that the state police investigators – and, by the way, we're deeply into spoilers at this point.
The state police investigators were prepared to talk about the local police department as forthrightly as they did, which was certainly on display in your story – the local law enforcement wasn't readily equipped to investigate such an in-depth case.
That required a lot of expertise with electronics and other forms of evidence.
Of course, there are two sides to this.
The state police blames Van Buren and Van Buren blames them.
And we'd like to just say it was all... you know, the Van Buren Police Department's fault.
They deny that.
So we should just say that that they feel that they have been sort of wrongly accused of botching the investigation.
And maligned, yeah.
I get you.
We know that In a lot of these cases it's you know you have to invite the FBI in or you invite the state police in.
Right.
Because it always starts with local information.
And then it's not just assumed that you know the state police or the FBI will ride in on their horses and save the day.
In this case, they were so resistant to bringing in extra help, which that part I don't understand.
If you have an agency that has greater resources than you do and you're struggling to solve a case, Why not bring them in?
Why fight it?
You would think, yeah.
It doesn't make sense.
We are going to come back in a moment because I think you have some material that you're going to play to us from that interview you did with the state police.
I noticed that your state investigators used a kind of a ruse to pry open a confession from their guy.
You know, we have so-and-so who's going to turn on you.
Well, they really didn't, did they?
But that was enough to make it happen.
I feel like you see that all the time on TV shows.
You do.
Non-dateline.
They say, well, your buddy's over there in the next interrogation room telling us all about you.
And meanwhile, they're telling him the same thing.
And then the suspect has to sit there and decide.
Like, okay, am I going to believe them?
What am I going to do?
Because the police are allowed to lie to suspects or persons of interest.
They do it often.
It's a crime-fighting tactic that they use. to get people to spill the beans.
So they say, oh well, this person said this about you or we know, we have your fingerprints, when in reality they may not, but they're hoping it shakes the trees.
They do, and it's thus an effective tool.
Although there are jurisdictions that don't allow it.
Oh, really?
Yes, many, many, many jurisdictions, actually, outside the United States.
In the U.S., it's pretty common everywhere.
Great Britain, for example, passed—well.
The rules are a little more stringent in Canada, but considerably more in Great Britain, where you can't—you're not allowed to lie in any way to a suspect.
It's tantamount to breaking the rules that could get them released from their charges, but—
The detectives, when that was brought into force, they all cried foul.
This will never work.
We'll never solve another case.
But in fact their clearance rate went up when they put that and several other rules into place that governed the way they did their interrogations mostly.
Okay.
They all have to be recorded.
They all have to be timed.
They all have to have somebody else in the room and you can't lie.
On one hand, if the person really did it, I sort of like, okay, whatever tool is necessary.
But then on the other hand, people should have rights and maybe not be lied to.
That's a tough one.
Have you...
I think you have done these, the Mr. Big Stings in Canada.
Yes.
Where, yeah, I've done a couple of those where they really lie to them.
I mean, they tell them you won a trip or you're, you know.
Sure.
They concoct a whole other world that somebody gets sucked into.
Right?
Yeah.
And then they elicit confessions through their undercovers.
And I did one where they got a confession in an ice fishing hut on Lake Simcoe in Ontario.
Yes.
And the fact that they are as effective as they are makes me think that probably they're not going to give up on those.
Yeah, I don't think so.
And there's a there's actually a case in Saskatchewan where you're from that that just wrapped a trial with a Mr. Big Sting.
And it was a big thing about will the Mr. Big Sting the confession be allowed or not?
And they finally the judge said yes.
So they do contest them, of course, the defense attorneys, but they usually end up, unfortunately for the suspect or the defendant, they usually end up staying in the trial.
Yeah.
Well, the investigation portion of this was really fascinating to me.
The first part in the local police department and their attitude toward it.
And when finally...
Those heroic young people managed to get the state police involved through their you know their unyielding efforts.
Yeah, and quickly.
You can't get away with murder these days because of the technology.
Yes, I know.
With the geofencing of the phones around the house, in the house.
Explain how that worked in this case.
So what they did was they took a look the state police at what phones were being used right in that area at the time Egypt was killed.
So they have the ability to download all the phones in use.
And determine whether something was in the area that didn't belong there.
Yes.
And so they found these guys from Ohio and then linking it to DNA that was left at the crime scene, then linking it to the video from the gas station.
I mean, it was all the pieces were there.
The Van Buren police just couldn't put those pieces together.
How did the interview with state police come about?
Because you didn't have it at first.
They were not ready to speak, but they did finally, of course, agree to do it.
And this was an extra clip that did not make the show, which is with Michigan State Police detectives Plummer and Street.
I wanted to know if the suspects ended up going into that right house after killing Egypt.
You can just imagine the fear Egypt would have felt not knowing who these men are, not knowing what's going to happen to her, getting tied up and then for it to end that way.
I can't imagine what she went through in those final minutes.
Based on the cell phone data, we know that they had entered and left within six minutes.
So they had entered tighter up, brutally murdered her and left with.
You know much like watching a commercial.
It just happened so fast.
Did they end up stealing the drugs from the other side of the duplex?
They never went into the right house.
After they murdered Egypt, they left.
They left empty-handed.
That is so shocking, isn't it?
It really is.
It's so shocking.
It's just imagine that this all happened because they went left instead of right.
An oops.
An oops killing.
An oops, as they say.
Oops.
I mean, what is wrong with you people?
Yeah.
It's just, oh, it makes me so angry.
Yeah.
It really is.
It really is awful.
And Egypt was just one of those people that like you could just see yourself being her friend.
You know, like she is out at the bars, like you know, selling the beer, and it just shows you what a people person she must have been right.
To be in a job like that.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And then for them to create a beer named after her.
A girl named Egypt just shows you how much people cared about her.
You're not going to make a beer for someone that you didn't care about or who was a jerk.
Did you try it, by the way?
I did.
Yes.
I think it had, if I remember correctly, I believe it had strawberry notes in it.
We went to the craft brewery location where they made it and I got to go get it.
You know, behind the closed doors where they make the beer and bottle the beer and all that, and um, they just loved her there.
They they, just she was just such a great person and, of course, everyone loved her voice.
You know, on top of her personality, she was such a good singer and um, It's not often that shows like Dateline and The Voice intersect, but in this case she had auditioned for The Voice.
And so it just makes me so angry that just an unnecessary killing that did not need to happen.
Completely.
Usually we focus on crimes in which personalities are very much involved and relationships and difficulties in those relationships.
And so naturally the police plumb them.
But then to be... to discover that these two goons did that just because?
Just unbelievable.
Just because.
Well, anyway, it was a story well told, Andrea.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And now we're going to take one little break and then come back and do some trivia?
My goodness.
All right, so I have a question for you, Andrea.
Okay.
Who started on Dayline first?
Was it me or Dennis or Josh?
Oh, my goodness.
Okay, I'm going to say no to Josh.
I don't know why.
I just am.
Well, we always say no to Josh.
Of course we say no.
No particular reason.
Okay, I'm going to say Dennis.
And you're right.
That's the official correct answer.
Although...
The unofficial answer, which I am still, I've got to go back and look in the files and prove.
I think I did a story for Dateline back in, 92 or 90.
Yeah.
Mid 92.
I think I did, but I'm not sure.
So I have to check.
And this was.
That would have been a freelance thing.
Okay.
So he maybe then was the first on the show, but you were the first to have a story.
There you go.
Well, maybe or maybe not.
We have to look it up.
Do you remember what the story was?
Not a clue.
Not a clue.
No.
I remember the first one I did officially on Dateline, which was in 1995.
And that was a story about a woman in Pittsburgh. who had opened up a transmission repair shop.
And in 1995, And she'd become a kind of a character in town.
And so we just did a profile of this woman.
Interesting lady.
Really?
Yeah.
Oh, my gosh.
Dateline has evolved so much.
Oh, it certainly has.
Yes.
Next question, Andrea.
Who was the correspondent with the highest rated Dateline of all time?
Well, that would have to be you.
Oh, no.
No, it is not.
No.
Well, I felt like it was appropriate, since I'm here with you, that I say you had the highest rated date line, because that might be offensive if I was like well, it definitely wasn't you.
It certainly wasn't me.
But I don't want to offend anyone else.
Well, why not?
You could offend Josh.
It's not a problem.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, we already had one with Dennis.
So I'm just going to say Josh because maybe we wouldn't have two with Dennis.
Yeah, no, it was Dennis.
Oh, I got it wrong.
Okay.
What story was it?
It was a story called Cliffhanger.
It was about a girlfriend who pushed her boyfriend off a cliff.
And we've done those kinds of things before.
We sure have.
Yeah.
We sure have.
Those are the ones where, when it's your anniversary or you're having problems with your spouse, maybe don't go for a hike in the mountains.
Maybe not.
I actually had the reverse of that in Colorado where the husband said she went over the cliff and then went down three waterfalls and then drowned.
But the sheriff... took a look at the location and said, why does this woman not have more injuries?
There you go.
That was, I believe it was two hung juries on that one.
Yeah, they have trouble with that because it's a hard thing to know.
I did one where a couple was on a romantic trip.
And the man, we think, pushed the woman off the cliff.
But then immediately, as soon as she went over the edge, went rushing down the side of this slope very, very steep slope, calling 911 as he went.
And the, you know, ambulance got there as soon as it was possible.
Of course, it was too late because the fall killed her.
But he seemed to be trying very, very hard to save her.
So then the question was, was it intentional?
Not intentional.
And juries sweated over that for quite some time.
Yeah.
Now, here are my questions to you.
Okay.
Which Dateline correspondent actually hung off the side of a cliff?
That would be you, Andrea.
That was me.
Yes.
That was me.
I'm trying to think whether or not any of us guys would be prepared to do such a thing.
And the answer is no.
So it must be you.
That was at Rocky Mountain National Park, and it was scary.
I remember we kind of got lost, and we had a guide and everything.
We had to cross this way to get to where the murder happened.
Mm-hmm.
And that was one of the scariest moments, I'm not joking, of my life.
I thought one misstep on this thing that we're crossing right now and like this, someone's going to die.
And I was kissing the ground when I got to the other side.
I'll be darned.
You went all that way for one good shot, huh?
Well yeah, but it was because we kind of went the wrong way and the sun was starting to come down and the hanging off the cliff part was fine.
I was totally roped in and, you know, felt perfectly safe.
It was the pass to get to that area safely.
That was like.
Just ask producer Susan Leibovitz about it.
She'll remember.
I'm sure.
All right.
I have one more question for you, unless you have something else for me.
No.
When is Dateline's 32nd birthday?
The answer is this Sunday, March 31st.
March 31st, indeed.
32 years.
Can you imagine?
Well done.
Well, thank you for joining us for this edition of Talking Dateline for this week.
Thank you, Andrea.
Thank you.
Thank you, everybody, for listening.
And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or Dateline, reach out to us on social at DatelineNBC.
See you Fridays on Dateline.
