Hi, everybody.
It's Josh Mankiewicz, and we're talking Dateline today with Andrea Canning.
Hi, Andrea.
Hello.
So this episode is called Facing the Music and it's about a young woman murdered and sexually assaulted in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.
Back in 1992, it was a cold case for about a quarter century until it was finally undone.
Now, if you haven't listened to this show yet or you haven't seen it on television, it's the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts that you just chose from.
So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock. and then come back here.
For this episode.
Andrea has a clip that she's going to play for us, an interview that's not in the story, somebody who's a former student of Christy the victim.
And then we're also going to answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media.
So stick around for that.
So let's talk Dateline.
Let's do it.
Interesting story.
When did this first run on Dateline?
2019, in fact.
I was pregnant with Tripp when I was shooting this story.
Wow.
Tripp's now how old?
Five years old as of last week.
Wow.
How's he doing?
He is doing great.
Yes, he's going to kindergarten in the fall.
Thank you.
That's great.
I was wondering when I was watching this, when this was, because I couldn't quite tell.
And when did you do the earlier thing where you had your... your genetic face mapping done?
That was for a different story in Albuquerque, New Mexico, with a woman named Brittany Marcel.
She was actually a teenager at the time when she was attacked.
One drop of blood was left at the crime scene at her house on a window pane.
He jumped out the window.
That's all they had to work with was this one drop of blood.
They end up doing this Parabon testing.
They get the sketch of the person and it looks an awful lot like a person Brittany named, while under hypnosis.
And turns out the name that she gave in hypnosis was in fact Brittany.
And so that was the first time that I had been introduced to this Parabon technology.
I sent my DNA into Parabon anonymously.
And I have to say, it was really, truly incredible when they showed it to me.
I could not believe how much it looked like me.
See, I did not think it looked like you.
I did not think that I would look at that composite and think to myself, oh, that's Andrea.
Like, if you showed me that, I would have said it's a woman with blue eyes.
But, I mean, it didn't immediately say to me that it was you.
Josh, remember, it's...
21-year-old Andrea.
That's how that program works.
It spits out a picture, a composite of the person at age 21.
Here's what I will say that was really remarkable about that composite.
I have a yellow ring around my pupils.
That composite had a yellow ring around the pupils. which just blew me away.
And remember, Josh, you're trying to narrow down suspects.
We already know male, female, obviously, from DNA testing.
But when you do Parabon, you can get hair color.
You can get eye color.
You can really eliminate a lot of suspects.
When you have no idea who committed a crime.
Yeah, and I think that's the real benefit of that molecular photo fitting, as it's sometimes called, or DNA phenotyping.
I mean, it still doesn't replace finding a name, which is what they eventually did through investigative genetic genealogy.
It focuses.
Because the composite that they had of Mr Rowe, I mean it doesn't not look like him, but you don't think like, oh yeah, that's the guy.
I agree.
I agree.
That one wasn't, you know, some type of dead on match or anything, but they did have the eye color right.
The hair was certainly similar.
I mean, when you held them side by side, you could definitely see the resemblance, but it wasn't like oh, that's him.
You know, it wasn't that close.
Look, I mean just a few years ago it was impossible to get DNA off a doorknob, you know, just because somebody had opened it.
Now you can.
You know you can identify suspects because they opened the door to the scene of the crime.
So you know, as we go forward, I mean I'm sure DNA technology as it advances is going to be better and better at creating what somebody looks like.
And we know that.
We know it keeps improving, just even through Dateline, from doing all these different cases over the years.
We've watched with our own eyes DNA evolve.
And a lot of times you and I go back in the time vault to these stories that were around long before we even started on Dateline in some cases.
Yeah.
I mean you talked about in this investigative genetic genealogy used to solve the Golden State Killer case.
And now, that's just kind of... wrote.
Now they're just oh yeah.
So they did investigative genealogy and they found his cousins and then they went through it and they found him.
And that was stunning and impossible science fiction just a few years ago.
And now it's just sort of accepted as sort of standard law enforcement practice.
Such an amazing tool.
It's really changed the face of law enforcement investigations.
Yeah, and forensics and the way murders are investigated.
I mean they're closing cases all the time and they're identifying people who were John and Jane Doe's for 20 30, 40 years.
And now they know who it is and an investigation can begin.
Or, in some cases, they're identifying suspects who otherwise would have just been walking around.
One of the things that that came up in this case is something that's surfaced in some other cases that we've done also.
That were DNA cases, which is when you look at this from the outside, you know uh.
Who's the winner here?
Law enforcement or the suspect?
I mean, this guy got away with murder for 25 years.
You can pretty easily make the argument.
He walked away a winner.
He lived his life, did whatever he wanted.
I don't know if he was DJing the whole time, but he got a lot of years to live his life and be free.
Yeah, I say he's the loser.
He got caught in the end.
And also, what kind of life is that when you know you've killed a woman and look, he was married four times?
And I had to wonder, is that because his life is unstable?
You know, is that because of what he did?
And, you know, I don't know the answer to that, but it's certainly possible.
I mean, hiding in plain sight, that doesn't sound like very much fun to me.
It doesn't sound like fun to me either, although it probably beats being in the joint.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Yes.
So you know, this wouldn't be the first case we've covered in which the murderer turns out to have a secret life.
Right. that is unknown to his family and the people in his life.
I mean the story I did just a couple of months ago, in which this guy got away with murder and then lived in this tiny small town in Northern Ontario.
And it was another DNA case.
And no one could believe that he was the guy because he had this whole other life.
People get pretty good at compartmentalizing, I guess.
I'm sure.
I totally agree with you.
That was absolutely the case with DJ Freeze, as they call him.
You know, not only did he go about his life, but was really a big part of the community because he was this DJ right.
That was there for all the life events weddings proms parties, and certainly in a community like Lancaster, you know where it's not that big.
He is a part of that fabric of that community, right?
When you're going to these big events that people are celebrating.
Well yeah, and if you're a playboy and you're a DJ, you're meeting a lot of dates that way.
And if you're a predator and you're a DJ, you're scoping out a lot of victims.
And he may have seen her Right.
I mean, he unquestionably ran across her tracks.
And I guess police think that she turned him down and that that that set him on his sort of stalking of her, because it sounds like they believe that he's the guy scared away from outside her house.
Yeah, I mean, you know there's a lot of unanswered questions, but the proximity was definitely there.
Because once they started narrowing down the DNA situation, you know okay what relatives live near Christy or who might be in her world.
And then when they narrowed it down to him, it turns out, oh, wow, that's his route to work is right past her house.
So it just clicked.
When we come back we have more from Andrea's interview with Christie's former student, Marian Fisher.
So, Christie's friends, you could really tell all these years later how much that affected them then and how it still affects them now.
Cause they're.
You know, these are all women who you know were probably young and carefree when this happened and going to clubs and dancing to the DJ.
And then, you know, now they've.
You know, gotten married, had kids, people living their lives.
And, you know, Christy never gets any older.
That's what happens with victims.
Like, they're always that same age in your mind.
It's so true.
They don't get a chance to grow up.
No.
It's so true.
You have a picture of that person in your mind and that picture stays the same.
And I always think about, I get to interview multiple women who were friends with the victim.
And it happens a lot on Dateline, where you find a tight little group of friends and maybe they're still thick as thieves.
Maybe they've, you know, they've moved around in the country or whatever, but...
It's just so nice that she was loved by these people and that they still care about her, and that they still care about each other and that they still talk about it.
And I feel like everyone needs little groups like that.
You know, like the world would be a better place if everyone had that tight-knit group of friends.
That just is full of love and happiness and has your back.
I agree.
Everyone loved Christy, including her fellow teachers, her students.
And we interviewed one of Christy's former students who spoke about what an impact Christy had on her life.
Her name was Miriam Fisher, and she's a teacher now herself.
And this was something that we had on social media.
Let's listen to this, because I remember that she was when they found her body.
She had wrapped presents with her that she was going to give to her students, which tells you a little something about what kind of teacher she was.
Let's listen to that.
That part of the interview now.
You wanted to be in her classroom.
You wanted to learn from her.
You just felt comfortable.
You felt welcomed.
You felt appreciated.
You felt encouraged.
She was a rock star to us.
You know, she not only was my teacher, but she and my mom got along so well.
I mean, they could rely on each other.
They became friends and she truly became more of family to me and my sister.
One of the beginning days of summer she asked us to be pen pals to her.
So she made us promise that we would write letters to her at least once a week.
So I have some letters from her, my sister has some letters, my mother has some letters.
I saved every note she gave me because she was just so special to me.
And right after I found out that she had died, I got little popsicle sticks and I made a little frame with little decorations on it.
And I still have them today and I still look at them when I'm feeling overwhelmed.
I make sure that I stand outside my room and greet every single student that comes in.
I always have a smile on my face because I want them to know that I'm there for them.
You know, I want them to feel that comfort and that welcome that we felt going into her room.
Oh, my gosh.
I was getting teary eyed.
That does tell you about what a good teacher she was, that she still has this impact on one of her students all these years later.
And she became a teacher and she's clearly thinking about her like all the time.
That's what you want in a teacher somebody who encourages you that you remember all those years later.
Yeah, because there's a lot of teachers that maybe you don't remember for the right reasons.
But then there's those special teachers that changed your life or that you always remember, or that inspired you to do something.
Shirley Adams.
I had her for fifth grade and I had her again for eighth grade.
She was the greatest.
Oh, that's really nice.
She's not with us anymore.
Yeah, she was terrific.
You know what you were talking about, reminds me of something that I always describe as the ripple effect of murder, which is it becomes this defining moment sure, in the lives of the victim's family.
But it also becomes this defining event in lots of other people's lives, people who are not related to the victim, people you're not thinking about.
Like it changes the way people get parented, people who never even knew the victim but, like you know, because that happened no, you cannot go to that party.
No, you I mean.
I mean those women that you talk to.
You know How many of them.
When their daughters say you know hey, we're going out clubbing tonight, they think oh no, you're not.
No, you're not, because I know what can happen.
Well, it's something you can never forget or never just erase from your mind because you want to.
I mean, I feel bad for the principal.
You know, he's the one who had to see that.
Who found her.
And not only bad because of what he had to see, but also bad because then now he's in the crosshairs of law enforcement.
And, you know, they're questioning, oh, well, who does that?
What?
And I even I, you know, I asked him that question.
I don't know too many bosses that would like, just you know, get in their car and drive over to an employee's house because they didn't show up to work.
Pretty rare, I would say they'd probably just let it go and just wonder where that person is.
Maybe try to call them a couple of times.
Yeah, this guy clearly, I thought was really connected to her and probably to the other teachers too.
I was surprised that the cops came in so hard on him without anything pointing to him, except he's the person who found the body.
I mean, the hit you get off this guy is not that he's, Like, you know, some predator.
I mean, he clearly must have been horrified when he made the 911 call.
I mean, ultimately, he came off as a nice, sweet guy who was really concerned about his employees.
And, you know, the kind of guy you'd want to work for.
Exactly.
And police... can come down hard sometimes because they're trying to solve a murder.
Public safety's at risk.
They don't know him.
Like, they don't know that he's sweet and caring about his teachers.
They'll certainly learn as they, you know, as they go along and they talk to people and talk to him.
But it's like relationships.
You know, sometimes a spouse didn't kill the spouse.
It was like somebody completely different.
But the police don't know that when they're embarking on this investigation.
They have to go into this with totally open eyes.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
So let's talk about Dagger.
Oh, my gosh.
Yes.
This is unquestionably one of the great boyfriend nicknames.
Well, it sounds exactly to me like Dagger should be on General Hospital.
Like, doesn't that sound like a soap star?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So first of all, it raises a question.
How often is a married boyfriend, a guy who's cheating on his wife with the victim is who's named after a thing?
You can kill people with right.
And they break up and he's not happy about it.
How often is that person not the killer?
Yeah, that person is definitely usually suspect number one, for sure.
Do we know why he was called Dagger?
Like his name, you know, is that part of his name or is that his favorite implement?
I honestly cannot remember at this point.
Does sound like a name that maybe parents would not give their child at birth.
I don't.
Right.
I mean, like your son, who was born not long after you shot this story.
Trip.
What's his actual given name?
George.
He's George III.
George, right.
But you don't call him George.
You call him Trip.
Yes.
Right.
But you never thought about calling him like the blade.
No, that would be a no.
No.
No, like scalpel.
That's not.
Yeah.
No, that's not.
No dagger.
Yes.
That's what I'm saying.
Potentially as a sinister connotation to it.
I presume we tried to get dagger.
Yeah.
And yes.
And I think, I think they didn't know like a whole lot about him.
He moved, and but it was very odd though, that he came into the school looking for, saying he didn't know she'd been murdered.
I mean, that was really weird.
I thought at the time that's the strongest evidence against his being a suspect.
Like if you're the guy you do not show up at school, like a couple of days later saying hey, I'm trying to reach her.
Right.
Unless you're extremely smart or extremely sharp.
See what I did there?
Yes.
Thinking that by doing that, you will make yourself look like.
Well, I didn't have any knowledge of it.
And, you know, so it isn't Dagger.
Dagger has an alibi.
Yeah.
Despite the fact that he's married.
I mean, he was keeping that relationship a secret from at least some people.
Maybe maybe her.
We don't know.
Maybe maybe Christie.
Certainly his wife, we think.
And he's named Dagger.
Those are all the things.
Yeah.
It was unclear if I'm remembering correctly.
The friends weren't sure if she knew if he was married or not.
They think she might have, but she didn't talk about it.
Okay, we're going to take a break and then we will come back and answer some of your questions about the broadcast from social media.
Let's hear what the people have to say about this story.
The people on social.
Kelly Kaler says arrest him for being called DJ Freeze.
Well, I don't know.
That's a...
The 90s were a different time, Kelly.
Yeah, I wonder where that came from.
Freeze without the E. Maybe he thought he was really cool.
Britt Burke says watching the Dateline special Facing the Music which happened in my hometown of Lancaster, PA.
I'm so glad the murder was found, even if it took 25 years.
Closure for the family is what matters.
And I'm going to tell you...
Britt Burke and everybody else.
There isn't any such thing as closure unless you can invent a time machine, because you know, I mean I'm sure that it makes sense.
Family and friends feel better when somebody is arrested, but there is no closure.
There is a life before she died and then there's the life afterward, and you're changed forever by this.
I always say closure to a chapter. you know, in this horrible story that they've been living.
You know, you close the chapter of they found the person, but the grieving continues forever.
And by the way, Josh, it's Lancaster.
Not Lancaster.
Lancaster, yes.
That's right, because Lancaster is here in California, but Lancaster County.
Yes.
I worked with a news anchor in Cincinnati from Lancaster so she taught me how to say it.
And also I had an ex-boyfriend from many many, many years ago who played for the Hershey Bears the hockey team, so I would go there and it was always fun to see all the Amish people at the games, because you know you're not used to that when you go to Just regular hockey games.
And you'd see, you know, obviously all the buggies and everything around that Lancaster area.
And there are like farms in your backyard.
You know, like Christy had a farm in her backyard which shows you kind of that sort of little bit of a city feel, even though it's not a city, but kind of meets.
You know, farming like it's, it's like old fashioned meets new.
I guess you could say.
I want to back up to something that I think viewers and listeners are going to find interesting.
How long were you involved with that guy who played for the Hershey Bears?
Oh, I don't know.
Maybe like a year and a half.
Like he moved around teams, maybe two years.
Yeah, he played for Denver.
You still in touch with him?
No, no, not at all.
He was on the winning team for the New Jersey Devils when they won the Stanley Cup.
He wasn't on the winning team in life.
He lost big this time.
No, he went on.
He got married.
He had children.
I'm sure he's very happy, and I'm happy for him.
I'm sure he's very happy, although he's not as happy as he could be, is he?
Did you ever have a favorite DJ?
I did not.
Yeah.
Well, in our hometown, we had DJ Lenny.
He was the DJ at my wedding.
He was so much fun.
Everyone uses him.
He's, Not like DJ Freeze, but is like DJ Freeze in the way that he's a part of the community.
So he's always at people's events and he does such a good job.
And our wedding kept going and going and it was like time to shut it down.
And we kept saying to Lenny we're like we'll pay you more money if you don't leave, and so so the wedding like went on and on much later than it should have, until like four in the morning, and finally it had to shut down.
This was a big party and dj lenny was a big part of that.
So so that is talking dateline for this week.
Andrea, thank you.
Always a pleasure, The pleasure is all mine.
Thanks, Josh.
And thanks, everybody, for listening.
And remember, if you have any questions for us about Dateline or about this episode or about anything else, you can reach out to us on social at at Dateline NBC.
See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
