Hi, guys.
I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline.
And I am here with the one and only Keith Morrison.
Keith, this is my first time seeing you on Talking Dateline since we saw each other in person in Nashville.
Hi, friend.
It was so good to see you there.
We had so much fun.
We had such a good time.
I know, usually we meet like this, but we saw each other in person.
Let's talk about our episode today.
Today's episode is called The Bucket Hat Mystery.
It begins in Wapahu Hawaii, where a beloved acupuncturist, John Tokuhara, was found shot to death inside of his clinic.
As investigators dug deeper, they uncovered a web of love and jealousy that went around some bends but eventually led to Eric Thompson, the husband of John's former lover.
Now, if you haven't watched this episode yet, you can go find it right below this podcast or stream it anytime on Peacock.
Then come right back here.
And when you do come back, we'll share more from one juror in the trial who had a lot to say about what unfolded inside the courtroom.
And of course, later on, we will answer some of your questions from social media.
So, Keith, let's talk Dateline.
Let's do it.
Well, Keith, I love the way that we opened this first.
I mean, it was beautiful.
It was picturesque.
You talked about just Hawaii.
We often talk about.
You know the locations where we do these stories, becoming characters in and of themselves.
Yes.
But usually it's not as beautiful a place as the island of Oahu, right?
Well, exactly.
Or any of the islands in Hawaii.
I have been privileged to be able to go to Hawaii often to do stories for Dateline.
Uh-huh.
It actually sounds like an oxymoron to say that, because they're stories about people who were murdered.
But it is such a beautiful place.
And the people are just wonderful.
The native Hawaiians are fabulous people.
And that's who makes up the population of Wapahu.
It's kind of a suburb of Oahu.
It's not a 20-minute drive from the famous sites and the surfing beaches, but it's a very different kind of community altogether from what the tourists normally see.
These are people who have lived there for many generations.
It's their island.
It's their home.
And they're a very tight-knit group of people.
And there's real love that exists among all of them.
So John Takuhara was one of those folks from Wapa'u who had gone to the mainland to become an acupuncturist and returned home.
Didn't have to.
Wanted to.
Wanted to be at home with his folks.
And lived with his mother.
Ran a clinic that was quite popular.
And everybody assumed that, you know, he was just living kind of a regular single guy life.
It was only later on, when things had happened, that discoveries were made that John Tokuera had a very interesting and somewhat active romantic life behind the scenes, because people loved him.
Women loved him.
And one thing would be to another, you know, they had affairs.
As things often do.
I wonder...
About the reception, how were you, how was our team received when you were shooting in the area?
Because, I mean, we often talk about obviously, small community a lot of people knew what was going on.
Just kind of give us a feel of what it felt like.
His friends were only too eager to talk to us.
And, as you could see in the story, they all assembled repeatedly to have conversations um with us, tell us all they knew about john and all they knew about what happened.
They all followed this investigation so carefully.
So did we so interestingly, i don't, this is something that will interest you perhaps, although maybe not the people, most of the people listening but this was the last story i was able to complete with Vince Sterla, producer I've worked with for many, many years here at Dateline.
He's retired.
So we went off to Hawaii to do this story together.
But he was there for months beforehand working on this story before I ever, you know, joined him.
And covering the trial, covering all the twists and turns of the story.
And as we approached the time to film, The authorities pulled back, didn't want to take part in it.
And we thought, well, that might make it too difficult for us to do this story.
But in the end we decided to because it was the kind of story that we felt we could tell and tell well, but also there were other ways to do it.
And so that's why you met Liz Thompson, the investigator we brought on board.
I thought that was a brilliant pivot.
And she did a fantastic job.
It took only a few minutes though, for me to realize okay, we had to do this in a different way than we typically do our Dateline stories, right.
Like we didn't hear from his direct family, from his immediate family.
We didn't hear from law enforcement or the investigators who worked the case.
And typically those are two very integral building blocks when it comes to telling our stories on Dateline.
Precisely.
And I think John's mother was just, she was not ready to go on television and talk about her son.
It's just, she's feeling kind of broken.
It just broke my heart to know that his mother was the one who found him, who discovered him.
Awful.
And just seeing her sitting there in the front seat.
Yeah.
Terrible, terrible.
And I found myself wondering.
What it was like for her as the hours went by and she knew there was something wrong and she was holding off to go see him because she didn't want to be too much of an interfering mother.
But then finally she felt she had to and found him there.
It was tough.
There was some video of her in her car being, you know, responding to initial police questions.
And you could tell that she was just so broken that I wanted to give her some space.
Of course, of course.
So, in the absence of those you know folks that we typically hear from, of course you had Liz Thompson.
But really the camera, the mini camera angles, also became kind of the main voice in this story in a way that you don't typically see.
Sure, sure.
And that was something Liz could help us with and tell us how that all worked.
What happened, of course, was in real time, was it some junior actor?
Member of the Honolulu Police Department was assigned to go through all the CCTV, everything that could be found that was in the vicinity of John Tokuhara's clinic at the time that he was killed.
And this didn't, you know, you just don't automatically encounter what happened.
He would go through hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of videotape before finally seeing hey, wait a minute, that guy in the strange costume way too much clothing for Hawaii and a bucket hat is you know appeared on this camera.
And now he's appearing on that camera.
And then you could follow him all the way down several blocks on the route to the acupuncture clinic and then see where he disappeared just before you know.
Right outside the door of the clinic was the last we saw him.
Then the murder occurred within a minute or so of that.
And then he reappeared a minute or two after.
So there was very little better evidence to show this man, whoever he was, must have committed the murder.
It felt like we were going on a journey.
I guess I'll say that.
It didn't feel like evidence was being presented, but it almost felt like we were going on a journey with law enforcement, as they kind of figured this out.
When I was watching this I thought this Keith, when I was in my very first market as a reporter, Augusta Georgia someone told me there okay, if you go through a day and you have an assignment turning a daily news story and you can't get officials or you can't get somebody to talk to you, then just do a story that, taking the viewer through your day, right.
Like we called the city, they put us on hold for two hours, then we knocked on the store.
So let's just go through the process and we're going to kind of go peek behind the curtain of what that felt like.
So I thought it was very effective.
I loved it.
Good.
Thank you.
When we come back, you'll hear more from Keith's interview with a juror who had plenty to say about this case, including what they thought about Eric Thompson and about the woman whose affair set this whole thing in motion.
Let's talk about this investigation because it became very clear.
One, you introduced kind of some of the people, the ladies in John's life.
And so you're thinking immediately love triangle.
Anybody who watches Dateline, you're thinking, okay, love triangle.
But there are a couple of different options that come out immediately.
I thought that was interesting.
Well, yes.
And so did the police.
That's why they looked into those relationships fairly carefully, because he had had other relationships before.
What was interesting about him was he could have an intense romantic relationship with a woman.
Then it would, you know, either peter out or they'd break up and, but remain friends.
And then pick it up again, maybe a decade later and have another affair.
And sometimes even after the husband or, you know, significant other in that woman's life was aware of what had been going on.
It was unusual because we do see a lot of those love triangles and there's an awful lot of emotion and anger that has built into them, but seemed to be less in this situation, except for one obvious exception.
And that was what they eventually got to.
The relationship that the Thompsons had was fascinating to me.
The backstory was fascinating in that he discovered she had had an affair with John Tokohara and that she'd been seeing a psychic.
And the psychic had somehow given her What she thought was permission, or at least yeah, you know, if you need to have an affair, have an affair.
And so this arrangement they made, this post-nuptial agreement that he made, he discovers this.
She stops seeing John Tokohara.
She had already stopped seeing him actually.
But he discovers that there was an affair and makes her sign a deal where, if the marriage breaks up for any reason at all, even if he just walks out, says I'm done with you and kicks her out of the house, then he gets the house and he gets custody of their child.
And under any circumstance.
That was the most unbelievable thing. document I had ever heard of in my life.
I mean, she simply signed it, just signed it.
She signed it.
Yes.
And I was stunned that on the stand he brought forward, he basically said, oh, it was her idea.
She was basically like, no, no, no, I'm never going to do this again.
In fact, I promise you that I'm never going to do this again.
So here, this is my offer to you.
And I love that the prosecutor came back and said, basically, you trapped her.
You then controlled every aspect of her life.
There was no way she could leave that marriage.
Otherwise, she would lose her child.
And to me that was if I was waffling before of like hey, where does this stand or which way will this go.
That is beyond controlling behavior.
That was kind of a clue about that relationship, wasn't it?
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly that.
Also, her silence, I thought.
I mean, she was there, but she was quiet the whole time.
That said a lot.
It was very strange.
But then you know, part of that post-nuptial was that she would never go back and see a psychic again.
But she did.
And I just thought that he wouldn't find out.
And the psychic.
I don't think the second time there was any encouragement to continue the affair with Tokohara, but she picked it up again briefly.
But interestingly enough, they signed the post-nuptial agreement at the end of December 29th, I think of December.
12 days later is when the man in the bucket hat walks across the street and John Tokohara is killed.
So was the thought, and I don't know if prosecutors laid this out, but was the thought that okay, sign the postnuptial agreement.
She goes back.
She sees the psychic anyway.
And you know he's thinking okay, obviously that postnuptial agreement didn't work, she may just flaunt that and decide to go pick up this affair anyway.
I need to go a step further and actually take care of this man.
I was trying to make that connection.
I know.
And there's a lot of speculation here that can't be backed up.
Some of which we asked the prosecutors and other people involved in the case about.
Vince certainly poked around a lot in that area to try to find out what he could.
And I don't think the investigation even went to some of these places, like the paternity of the child, the questions of some of the more intimate questions of that relationship and what happened.
I got the sense again, this is blame the viewer.
I got the sense that this was a type of person that does not like to lose, that yes, even though he had the post-nuptial agreement that was signed, even though he knew he got everything, if there were, he was just really upset that his wife chose another man, however temporarily, over him and he didn't like to lose.
I also think you know the conversation around psychics and everything and this was kind of an undertone in what you discussed.
There's a very good possibility that she was dealing with some sort of postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety.
I mean, going through having a child, right?
Like he talked about how, you know, maybe she wasn't as excited as he thought that she would be after giving birth.
That to me immediately speaks postpartum depression, right?
A lot of mothers have a hard time transitioning into motherhood.
You have hormones all over the place.
And so who knows what type of a role that could have possibly played in that as well.
Well, exactly.
Sure.
Let's talk about this bucket hat.
That turned out to be, And it's funny, you know.
I think our viewers know by now.
But the titles of our Dateline episodes Keith, you and I don't think those up ourselves.
We're not doing a story and then we say, this should be called the bucket hat mystery.
No, that's something that usually I know, at least for me.
And I have made suggestions before and so have others.
And they call them something else anyway.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So this bucket hat was really kind of a linchpin to this whole thing, right?
And the journeys of said hat.
Right.
The killer of John Tokuhara was going to great lengths to try to get away with it.
And had it not been for those carefully placed cameras...
And the fact that his bucket hat fell off in the middle of the street.
There's some question whether or not this ever would have been solved.
You know, it's harder and harder to commit a crime these days because there are cameras everywhere.
There certainly are, even in neighborhoods where you wouldn't expect them to be.
Arguably.
Had you just gone out there, maybe in some clothes that didn't look so crazy and this bucket hat that didn't stand out as much, might you have been spotted, or you know.
Yeah.
You raise a good point.
And, you know, as you know, there were two trials.
In the first trial there was a hung jury, partly because of the difficulties with DNA evidence, partly because of various other things.
But the evidence was... just not enough for the first jury.
And there was some concern that there wouldn't be enough for the second jury either.
You know I have to say that when I saw the trial, when we went to the trial so early in the Dateline episode, I said ooh, something else is coming.
You've got about three more different twists for us because we never go to a trial that early right.
Usually it's in, you know, part 11, part 12, act 11 or 12 when you're about to wrap it up.
Then there's the trial and you get on with it.
So I said, okay, there's going to be something here that... doesn't work.
And then came the mistrial.
I'm curious in your experience Keith, I mean, does a mistrial usually?
Does that usually spell good news or bad news for the defendant?
The defendants will take it as good news always because it's not a conviction.
And so there's at least a chance that the prosecutor will decide okay, I can't find anything better, so I'm just not going to bring it again.
And there's also a chance that a second jury will say the same thing.
In this case, They doubled down and, you know, got what else they could and it worked out.
But, as you saw in the story from the representative of the jury, there was still a lot of discussion, still a lot of argument about whether or not the man was guilty.
And that could have led to, you know, another mistrial, another hung jury.
You spoke with one of those jurors who didn't want to be identified but kind of gave some really interesting details about what it was like in that deliberation room.
Let's listen to a little extra snippet from that interview.
Sure, yeah.
He was a fascinating guy, actually.
Felt very sorry for Eric, for John, of course, who was murdered, his family, his mother who testified, who almost lost her mind because of it.
She could hardly even speak.
She broke down in tears.
I feel sorry for his wife because she was... She was there, right?
Yeah.
What did you think of the fact that she was there?
She seemed to be supporting him.
I think she has to put on a... a face so that he doesn't go to prison.
Did it seem to you that she was putting on an act during the trial?
Not necessarily.
I can't say that.
No, I don't know.
I don't know if she even knew he was the murderer or she didn't know.
We don't know.
The jurors talked about that afterwards.
We don't know.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So in the end, he was sentenced.
Eric was sentenced to 15 to life with the possibility of parole.
How did John's family take that?
How did all of his friends take that sentence?
Well, you know they, in a variety of ways some of them were, you know, wish there could be more retribution than that.
But, you know, essentially they were glad he was convicted, glad that it was done.
There is something about the completion of a case where and it's not so much that like okay, everything's going to be okay now, but that portion of it isn't weighing down on you all the time.
It isn't something that you think about constantly and worry about what's going to happen.
Or whether justice will be done.
One way or another, justice was done, or at least justice as the court and the jury saw.
Sure.
Absolutely.
Well, it was a fascinating story.
And after this, we will be back to answer some of your questions from social media.
As you can imagine Keith, we have a lot of social media thoughts comments, questions that we can bring forward.
So let me read a few of these.
At Adora2000, this is a very simple statement.
She says, this is the ugliest love triangle I have ever seen.
And mind you, that's saying a lot because love triangles feature kind of prominently on Dateline.
Well, yes, that's right.
I think there were several triangles involved, but yes, it was.
It turned out rather ugly.
Luckily, indeed.
Yes.
This is from at reality doc.
I felt very conflicted about this case.
Juror interviewed said they felt video could be a man or a woman.
So if they ignored video and DNA, since hat wasn't tested and lab was compromised, what was there, aside from motive and proximity of the white truck?
Which is precisely why that first jury said, no, can't convict, can't acquit.
We don't know what to do.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think this is interesting.
We had several people online who disagreed with the conviction, which is notable because we don't always see that.
So at MikeH1990, how they convicted Eric on no evidence, I will never know.
Similar comment from at DJ brainstorm for you.
I don't agree with that conviction.
Could the husband have done it?
Yes.
But I just don't think I could have been a juror on that case and convicted him.
Interesting.
There you go.
But we waited for the result of that, of the jury's deliberation for quite a while.
And there was great uncertainty about what they would decide because of that very problem.
This one's interesting from at Stacy Delilah.
She said she consulted a psychic for permission to have an affair.
A lot of people had thoughts on the psychic thing.
They do.
There's some question as to whether or not the psychic was giving her permission to have an affair, but I think probably the psychic was.
Who knows what that conversation was?
Whatever it was, that's how it came out.
Okay.
We have a few audio questions.
Let's listen to one.
This is from Tyler.
Was John Tokohara the father of Joyce's baby?
It seemed like there was a possible implication of that based on some of the things in the episode, but it wasn't fully confirmed.
Thanks.
There were some questions about the baby.
I could see how people wondered that.
Well, yes, and we did too, and just spent a certain amount of time trying to suss that out.
But the investigation didn't seem to want to go there, at least not in any way that we were able to find out about.
Your speculation is just as good as anybody else's speculation, but I don't think there's an answer to that question that has been revealed.
Yeah.
Oh, goodness.
Here's another audio question from Katie.
Okay, so our question, my sister and I are watching the episode now.
She finished it last night.
I finished it tonight.
And we are wondering what happens now if the wife wants to divorce him and he's in jail for 15 to life.
Does he still get the kids and all the assets because of that post-marital agreement?
Or does she get that stuff now that he's in jail?
Katie Baucus with a very smart question.
That's a great question.
I think that's the question of the day, don't you?
That's a good one.
And I don't think anybody has the answer to that question.
You know...
One would sort of assume, if you've been convicted of murder, you're not going to be able to get the custody of your child and the ownership of your house away from your wife.
But I don't know.
I mean, these things can wind up in court for a long time, potentially.
That post-marital agreement, post-nuptial agreement, is just going to be stuck in my mind for a long time.
I've never heard of something like that.
Certainly not as aggressive as that one is.
So that's just wild.
That was unique.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, Keith, a lot packed into this two-hour episode, my friend.
Fascinating to watch as always.
Thank you for talking Dateline with me.
Thank you.
And that's it for talking Dateline for this week.
Thanks so much for listening.
If there's a case that you want us to cover or if you have a question for our team, remember you can always reach us anytime on social media at DatelineNBC.
You can also leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252, which apparently goes directly to Josh's pager, I'm told.
Or you can send a voice memo and a DM.
And before you go, we want to make sure that you check out Lester Holt's new four-part podcast series.
It's called The Last Appeal.
It's an in-depth look at the case of Robert Robertson, a Texas father who's set to be executed on October 16th for the 2002 murder of his two-year-old daughter, Nikki.
Prosecutors say that the evidence against him is overwhelming, but a growing army of Robertson supporters, including the detective who led that investigation against him, say that new science and new evidence raise serious doubts about his conviction.
The first three episodes are available right now wherever you get your podcasts.
It is a fascinating listen.
So thanks again for joining us.
And of course, we will see you on Friday for an all-new Dateline on NBC.
