Hey everyone, I'm Andrea Canning and we are Talking Dateline.
Today I'm here with Keith Morrison and the producer of this episode, Liz Brown.
Hello to both of you.
Hi Andrea.
Hello.
Hi Andrea.
Okay, this episode is called Broken Circle.
If you haven't listened to it yet, it's the episode right below this one on your list of podcasts.
So go there and listen to it and then come back here.
Today, Keith has two interview clips that he's going to play for us that were not in the show.
To recap, in 2020, a 21-second video filmed secretly at a religious reform school in Missouri went viral on TikTok.
Within weeks, the local sheriff launched an investigation into possible abuse at the school and the school closed.
What was surprising, the person who had posted the video was none other than the daughter of the school's owners.
And Amanda Householder was on a mission to stop her father, no matter what the personal cost.
Okay, Liz and Keith, let's talk Dateline.
All right.
So let's just start with how sad this episode made me feel for these teenagers.
It was heartbreaking to think that their parents were sending them there to try to do right.
And then they're subjected to this, everything this manual labor, sexual abuse, and it goes on and on.
When I looked at the TikTok video, I mean, my gosh.
Knock her out.
Yes, sir.
I mean it.
Knock her out.
Yes, sir.
And that goes for the rest of you.
If she clenches her fist like she's going to hit you, that's a threat.
Knock her out.
Yes, sir.
That was.
It's like one of the great things about a little snippet of video.
Even if it doesn't show you very much, for very long you hear the voice of the person who is committing these.
I'll call them sins, whatever you want to call them.
You hear that person and you hear their real personality, as they are telling one little girl to hit another little girl and knock her out.
And the way it's said in those just very few seconds, it was amazing.
It's amazing how 21 seconds can be so powerful.
Exactly.
It was really disheartening to watch this, that there's places like that that exist.
Well, and more than you would think.
You know, I assumed at the beginning of this that it was sort of one isolated case, one bad seed.
But the problem is much more endemic to that.
And it traces back to an oversight in some state legislation, certainly in that context particular area, but also in some other parts of the country where religious schools are not regulated in the same way and not supervised in ways that other kinds of schools are regulated.
And Liz, can I just say just some excellent reporting.
Oh, thank you.
On your part, investigating to track all these people down and get to the heart of the matter and the truth of the story.
It was really good investigative work.
I do want to give a shout out to Tyler Kincaid.
He's a digital reporter at NBC, and actually he was the trailblazer on this story.
He posted an article when the school was first closing.
We thought we have to look into this.
But going back to what Keith was saying, If a school is founded or run according to religious principles, you don't want to judge, you don't want to get involved.
I think that's part of the hesitancy of some states to regulate schools.
But that was also kind of the lure for some of these parents that this is religious, this has some kind of morality, this biblical discipline that these parents were promised.
I know that when I first started looking into this story I was like how could you send your child to this school?
But the more parents that we spoke to, the more I kind of understood that they in many cases were trying to do the best that they could for their children.
Absolutely.
Well, if somebody offers you an option that is supposedly an option that is morally correct, which is a godly, biblical thing to do and you have been listening to sermons day in and day out from somebody who says that that's the right way to raise a child well, I guess maybe you'd think about it.
Well and clearly.
A lot of things are not shared with the parents about exactly.
You know what goes on there.
So you know, the parents were certainly duped to a certain extent.
You know, as far as like, just how tough the love was there.
And the fact that, you know, Tough love works would be the philosophy.
And in some cases indeed, tough love works, but it just depends on how it's supplied, where and by whom.
Yeah.
I want to talk about the mother and daughter, Teresa and Ashley, because as I'm watching them, I thought how brave of these two to go on national television.
And share this story because Teresa especially had such guilt for sending her daughter there.
And you would?
As a parent, it would crush you to know that you sent your child into harm's way even though she didn't know.
It was crushing for her.
Yeah.
You bet.
They were so brave.
They just felt so strongly that they wanted to share their story.
Teresa, she gave us a handbook that the school gives parents when you sign up your kid.
And in the handbook, it laid out some of the rules about being in communication with the children.
So she wasn't allowed to have any contact with Ashley for 30 days.
They were told they weren't allowed to whisper on the phone.
I mean, so there are all these controls to prevent that communication between parent and child.
How would you know what was going on there?
You would have no idea, but she still felt this incredible guilt and it's taken years for them to repair that relationship.
Yeah, well, you heard Ashley saying, I hated my mom.
I hated her.
I'm not going to lie.
I couldn't stand her.
I couldn't stand looking at her.
Feel guilty?
Yeah.
You know, how could I do this to my child?
Thinking I was helping her.
I have a question for both of you.
Boyd Householder, who ran the school along with his wife, Stephanie.
Going back to the religious element, do you think Boyd truly thought that he was doing a good thing?
Or do you think that he was a man with serious anger issues and that this was his?
They were his punching bag to get out this anger?
You know, he was drawn.
It was Boyd's wife who took him to church and said, here's the preacher you need to listen to.
And that preacher was preaching a message that resonated with Boyd because he had been a drill instructor.
He knew how to be tough with recruits.
You apply those same principles principles to an eight-year-old child who's been away from home for the very first time, living with a bunch of other kids who are, all you know, terrified.
It's not a good scene, that's for sure.
He also, remember, worked at that other school, Agape, before he opened his own school.
And from the conversations that we had with more than a dozen students there and staff former staff members, the environment was very similar.
The boys were treated in an equally physical environment way.
So yes, I mean we can't get in people's heads, but he also participated or witnessed or saw stuff at that other school.
Okay, after the break we've got an interview clip from one of Boyd's former students at Agape and a clip from a different former student who tells Keith her dramatic story of being taken to Circle of Hope.
Circle of Hope So you had a lot of brave souls talking to you.
And I was especially struck by the idea of these teen girls suddenly finding themselves at the school at Circle of Hope.
Ashley talks about being driven there by her pastor, but you have an extra clip from your interview with another student named Danae.
That was also very disturbing.
Let's take a listen to that.
What was your first connection with one of these places?
What happened?
I literally was awoke at like 4 am in the morning to a stranger in my bedroom being like you need to get dressed, we're leaving.
And I was carried to a car where I was handcuffed and put in a car where I couldn't get out.
You were at home when this happened?
Yes.
In your own bed in your childhood home?
Yes.
Yes.
My mother was nowhere around.
And then, once I was physically in the car, She ended up coming out and the car I couldn't get out of it.
There was bars that prevented me from getting to the front seat.
Like one of those cages that they have in police cars?
Yes.
And I literally sat there and just became a shell of a human.
Wow.
Just remind me what had led up to Denae's mom feeling hopeless, and that you know she had to do this.
Well, she was not behaving in the way that her mother wanted her to.
She was seen as a problem child.
But, you know, things that were not that unusual in any teenager's family, quite frankly.
Yeah.
And speaking of the teens, we have another clip that did not air in the original episode, from Colton Schrag, who was a student at Agape boarding school, where Boyd had worked before.
I'd watch him grab students and chuck them to a wall, grab them by the neck and slam them on the rocks outside, get in their face yelling and screaming, you know, just completely out of control.
He was out of control.
Yeah, he was.
I actually had an incident with him. myself.
So we used to do a head count every time we left, like the main dining hall or main cafeteria, we'd line up in a line and a leader student would take take, count.
And I was, I was standing in line kind of spaced out.
And I was making a simple beat with my mouth, you know, And Boyd Householder saw, walked up and punched me in the stomach.
He's like, we don't listen to that devil music here.
If I ever catch you doing that again, I'm going to take you to the padded palace.
We're going to restrain you.
I looked at Boyd Householder.
I said, why wait?
Let's go right now.
And so we did.
We went to that room.
I got restrained.
Oh, I hated hearing about the padded palace.
That was so awful.
Really?
You say in the episode that Boyd Householder denied getting violent with students like Colton or Danae.
He did say that he restrained them if they got violent for their own safety and other students.
But I keep coming back to that TikTok video and you hear him telling a student to knock out another girl.
Knock her out.
Yes, sir.
I mean it.
Knock her out.
I was gonna say what was remarkable about that video is just that it had such an impact.
Like it was, people have been complaining about the school for years.
So it opened in 2006.
This video is in 2020.
People have been complaining about this school since 2007.
Nothing had happened.
Then this 21 second video comes along and all of a sudden you know people are investigating, people are paying attention and things start to change.
And Amanda was a person who was making it all possible in the end.
Imagine her dilemma.
She has grown up in this family.
She loves her mother and father.
They have a certain philosophy about the way children should be raised and schools should be operated.
Amanda herself worked in that school, did the things that were required, which sometimes gave her a lot of trouble, a lot of pause.
But it was only when she was able to get away from the school herself, when she finally said enough, I'm leaving, I'm going off to live my own life and saw things from the outside, looking in, that she recognized that this was just a terrible thing and that really she had to do something on it.
But making the decision to turn on your own parents and keep that fight up, not just for a week or for a month, but for years and years, and keep at it, no matter how much, No matter how the parents had to answer for that legally was was just.
That was just remarkable.
And it was a testament to her staying power and her ability.
We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with some updates on the story.
There's a major update since the original episode aired regards to the legal aspect of all this.
So the big one is that Boyd and Stephanie were both criminally charged.
We're talking more than 70 felonies for Boyd, including abuse for child.
More than 20 felonies for Stephanie, including abuse and endangering the welfare of a child.
And they both pleaded not guilty.
Boyd actually died recently before he went to trial, which is pretty if you're talking about amanda and her relationship with her parents.
She hadn't spoken to them in years, so she had, when we spoke with her recently, very mixed feelings about that, because on the one hand, She was grieving but she was also angry.
She was angry that the survivors didn't have a chance to face Boyd in court.
The mom's trial is pending.
In terms of Agape, the boys' school where Boyd worked before Circle of Hope, Three staff members pleaded guilty to misdemeanor assaults on boys there.
And Agape ended up closing.
They said it was because of lack of enrollment and lack of funding.
But, you know, you can read between the lines.
And there's another person charged too, right?
Agape used to go take the boys to the town doctor, David Smock, if they were sick.
But in December 2021, he was charged with felonies, including multiple counts of sexual misconduct.
He allegedly committed crimes against children he met through Agape.
He's pleaded not guilty, and he's in custody with his trial pending.
The school hasn't made any statements about those charges against the doctor.
The fact is that these children were vulnerable, that they were not able to communicate with their parents, that they wouldn't have been believed had they told somebody they were being abused, which makes them absolutely the perfect victims for an abuser.
And abusers tend to be attracted to the kind of places where they can abuse children.
Yeah, it's always in all kinds of these stories, whether it's this type of story or a woman who's been, you know, taken advantage of by a man or whatever.
They're in vulnerable places, you know, and people prey on the weak.
Exactly.
And that's exactly what this is.
I mean kudos to the media, including you two and your team, for really shining a light on this problem.
It's just sad that it took that long.
And I think the biggest kudos is to Amanda and the group of kids.
Yeah, true.
Oh, yeah, very much so.
Yeah.
If it hadn't been for her, this wouldn't happen.
And they picked up the phone.
They pounded the corridors in the state capitol to say, this has to stop.
This has to stop.
They were demonstrating outside the school.
I mean, they did everything they could possibly do.
And their campaign went on for quite some time.
And can you imagine some of those kids Amanda had restrained?
Like some of the former pupils?
Yeah.
Like imagine trying to build that relationship.
Yeah, it's awkward when you think about it.
Like that initial, you know, coming together, right?
Absolutely.
Amanda with these various people.
I mean, yeah.
How did she gain their trust?
It took some time.
I think that they were all hurting.
And when they recognized that Amanda understood what she had done and that she was part of them hurting and that she wanted to make amends, they were only too happy to join her.
I'll call it a crusade to do something about this.
So thanks to the survivors, the law did end up changing in Missouri.
So now religious schools have to register with the state so the state knows that they exist.
Employees do have to do background checks.
It's a step in the right direction.
It was one that was really a privilege to be able to be part of because...
Something happened because of it.
And some children, you know, were able to avoid a fate.
That was not something anybody wants to think about.
So yeah, future children, you know that, future teens that could have gone off to those, those facilities that now will not.
Thank you both for diving into this very important story that has impacted a lot of lives and hopefully there will continue to be more change.
As time goes on, awareness is spread about these kinds of facilities.
Thank you, Andrea.
Thanks, Andrea.
That's Talking Dateline for this week.
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