Surviving bad bosses, with Mita Mallick | Before Breakfast

This is an iHeart Podcast.

Hey, listeners.

Today's tip is powered by National University.

As a listener of Before Breakfast, you know my goal is to help you make the most of your day without sacrificing work or family time.

That's why I'm so happy to introduce an institution that shares the same values.

If you are thinking about going back to school, you're probably wondering how to fit it all in.

National's flexible online formats, four- and eight-week courses and monthly class starts help you begin your degree sooner, finish faster and do it all on your own schedule.

So you have more options for managing work, family, and school.

With over 150 degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals.

Learn more today at nu.edu.

Hosts compensated for their time.

I've seen a lot of tough women in my life, women who fight hard and keep showing up no matter what.

And when one of them gets hit with breast cancer, it's brutal.

But here's the thing.

Even after treatment, breast cancer can come back.

That's why I'm telling you about Kiskali.

Kiskali ribocyclib 200 milligram tablets are taken with an aromatase inhibitor.

It's for adults with HR positive, HER2 negative, stage two or three early breast cancer with a high risk of recurrence.

And it can help reduce the risk of cancer coming back.

If you or someone you love went through it, talk to them.

Share this.

It may not seem helpful, but it's a real way to show up for the women you love, or maybe yourself.

In a clinical study at three years, 91% of people taking Kiskali plus an aromatase inhibitor were cancer-free. versus 88% taking an aromatase inhibitor alone.

Individual results may vary.

Kaskali may cause serious skin reactions, liver problems and low white blood cell counts.

That may result in serious infections.

Life-threatening lung problems and abnormal heartbeats can occur.

Your doctor should test your heart and blood before and during treatment.

Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening cough, chest pain, or dizziness.

Before taking Kaskali, tell your doctor all your medical conditions, medicines you take and if you're breastfeeding, pregnant or planning to be, as it can harm an unborn baby.

Common side effects include nausea, headache, and tiredness.

Visit Kiskali.com.

That's K-I-S-K-U-A-L-I to learn more.

And ask your doctor if Kiskali is right for you.

Lowe's knows you've got a job to do, and we help get it done.

With the MyLowe's Pro Rewards Program, eligible members save more with volume discounts on qualifying orders for a quote of 2000 or more.

Join for free today.

Lowe's.

We help you save.

Offer can't be combined with any other discount, contract, and or special pricing.

Exclusions, more terms, and restrictions apply.

Details at Lowes.com slash terms.

Subject to change.

Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeart Radio.

Good morning.

This is Laura.

Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

Today's episode is going to be a longer one part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.

So today I'm delighted to welcome Mita Malik to Before Breakfast.

Mita has worked extensively in marketing and human resources and is the author of the brand new book The Devil Emails at Midnight.

What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses?

So Mita, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited for our conversation today.

Yeah, I'm excited as well.

So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

So I'm Amita Malik.

I've been both a marketing and human resources executive.

I'm a passionate storyteller, and I'm on a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces.

And, as you mentioned, I have a new book coming out called The Devil Emails at Midnight.

What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses?

And what is top of mind for me right now is I'm on a journey to raise kind and inclusive human beings, and it's tough.

And I'm sure every generation of parents said the same thing, but it is rough.

Yeah.

It is rough.

Exactly.

Well, we all do the best we can.

Well, I want to start with the title of your book.

Is there anything inherently wrong about emailing at midnight?

I love that question.

Not inherently.

It is the persistent hum of it. the constant continuous rhythm of always emailing off hours.

And in the double emails at midnight, the opening chapter is the scene of the boss who never had time for me.

So I would chase her around the office like a golden retriever.

I just wanted to be seen.

I wanted to hello.

I wanted to thank you.

I chased her into the parking lot once, Laura.

I was trying, like she would never have time for me except between the hours of 10 PM and 2 AM where she would dump out her inbox.

Can you pay this invoice?

Can you work on this deck?

Can you send this?

And I was there willing to respond because I wanted to be seen.

And so that's the question is isn't the biggest complaint in our relationships that we don't have time for each other?

And so it's true in the workplace, too.

And so that's what that's what it really means about if you're only available at midnight.

Yeah, because when I heard that I mean one of the things you know we've talked about on this podcast and some of the research I've done and I know you're a working mom right that one of the things that happens is a lot of parents who are also professionals try to end their work day the hard stop at 530 for daycare pickup.

Yes, absolutely.

You're in it.

I know you're in it right now.

And so then, you know, you play with your kid, put your kid to bed and now it's email time.

And so you know the many people who probably are emailing in that, you know, 9 pm to whatever window of the day may not always be doing it to be terrible.

So i think you know we're trying to figure out like what, what is the way?

We can, you know, indicate to people that we're not trying to be terrible?

Yeah, and i love that you said that some people have an out of office or something in their signature that says these are the hours that work for me.

Don't feel the need to respond.

I do think when you're the boss, you hold power in your organization.

So if i'm repeatedly emailing and doing the second shift and then what happens is really interesting.

Right, You work for me and I will say to you not to email me back, but you will.

And then this back and forth, right?

So some approaches could be, Delay the sending of it, right?

But then I don't wanna wake up in the morning and have 30 emails at 9 a.m. that I'll arrive.

That's not helpful either.

But I think, Laura, what it forces people to do to say, why does this have to be an email?

Because here's what I have been guilty of.

I wanna get it off my plate and onto yours.

So I just wanna send it.

So if I actually paused and said, is this an email?

Or is this?

When I know I'm meeting with Laura on Wednesday?

I'm putting this on my list for the one-on-one.

I'm saving that email.

Or it's going to be in our team meeting that we do every month.

So it forces people to really think about you're just using email to dump your inbox out, which sometimes you've been guilty of.

Are you going to be more strategic of how you're going to communicate with your team?

Yeah well, making good communication is probably.

You know, thoughtful communication is definitely a good boss move.

So what are some other sort of more toxic forms of communication or bad forms of communication that bad bosses are known for doing?

Well, it kind of started during the pandemic, didn't it?

We have so many ways to interact with each other from a technology perspective.

So I had a boss who would you know send the email.

But then it's the Slack, the text, the phone call, the missed FaceTime audio.

You're like, wait a minute, I'm in a meeting.

Like, why do, like, I got the email, wait for me to respond, right?

And so it's your point of like, what are good communication tools, styles and vehicles?

And you have to think about like for me, if i go to like tier one, if something is urgent, my team is going to get a phone call from me and that means budget cuts, restructuring someone, leaving the team like it's.

If you get the phone call, you know i need you right away and then you don't abuse that often right, because if everything's urgent, nothing's urgent.

And then when you're emailing something and you don't need a response for two days or whatever the deadline is, let the person respond because likely they're not responding because they're in the bathroom, which they're allowed to do.

They're taking a snack break or getting some water or they're in a meeting doing work.

Yeah.

So so thinking about what is the urgency level of the communication and matching the appropriate communication to that.

So, I mean, let's talk about the idea of bad bosses in general, though.

I mean, are bad bosses born or made?

I mean, do people do good bosses become bad bosses?

Is that something that actually happens?

Yeah.

That's what I believe.

And that's what I've been studying.

Bad bosses are not born.

They're made.

I've gone from being a good leader to a bad boss in the devil emails at midnight.

I chronicle 13 leaders, including myself.

And what's interesting, Laura, someone who's a bad boss for me could be a good boss for you.

And so it's about context and situation.

This boss could be a terrible micromanager for me.

Like, oh, my God.

And then you might be newer to the team and say, actually no, I need this level of support and hold hand, hand holding for the moment.

And so I think that's really important.

But we can swing from being good to bad and bad to good.

OK, well, let's hope that we're going in the right direction then.

I'm going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Mita Malik.

Today's tip is powered by National University.

As a listener of Before Breakfast, you know my goal is to help you make the most of your day without sacrificing work or family time.

That's why I'm so happy to introduce an institution that shares the same values.

If you are thinking about going back to school, you're probably wondering how to fit it all in.

National's flexible online formats, four- and eight-week courses and monthly class starts help you begin your degree sooner, finish faster and do it all on your own schedule.

So you have more options for managing work, family, and school.

With over 150 degrees, credentials and certificates to choose from, they have a program that fits your career goals.

Learn more today at nu.edu.

Hosts compensated for their time.

I used to play team sports and shared a locker room with a whole lot of women plus 14 roommates in one college house.

I still text, call, or see so many of those women regularly.

We talk about everything, even breast cancer, which has affected several of my friends.

Breast cancer has impacted all our lives in one way or another, so we know talking about it is important to share understanding and to keep everyone updated.

If you or someone you know was previously diagnosed with HR-positive, HER2-negative early breast cancer and went through treatment, you might be surprised to learn that it could come back.

That's why I want to tell you about a breast cancer treatment called Kiscali.

Kiscali ribocyclib 200-milligram tablets are taken with an aromatase inhibitor.

It's for adults with HR-positive HER2-negative, stage 2 or 3 early breast cancer with a high risk of recurrence, and it can help reduce the risk of cancer coming back.

In a clinical study at three years, 91% of people taking Kiskali plus an aromatase inhibitor were cancer-free versus 88% taking an aromatase inhibitor alone.

Individual results may vary.

Kiskali may cause serious skin reactions, liver problems and low white blood cell counts.

That may result in serious infections.

Life-threatening lung problems and abnormal heartbeats can occur.

Your doctor should test your heart and blood before and during treatment.

Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening cough, chest pain, or dizziness.

Before taking Kiskali, tell your doctor all your medical conditions, medicines you take and if you're breastfeeding, pregnant or planning to be, as it can harm an unborn baby.

Common side effects include nausea, headache, and tiredness.

It's all about doing more today to help protect your tomorrow.

Visit Kiskali.com.

I know it's tricky to spell, so that's K-I-S-Q-A-L-I to learn more.

And ask your doctor if Kiskali is right for you.

Time for a sofa upgrade?

Visit washablesofascom and discover Anabay, where designer style meets budget-friendly prices, with sofas starting at 699.

Anabay brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation, with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly.

Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabay is the only machine washable sofa inside and out.

Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy.

Liquid simply slides right off.

Designed for custom comfort.

Our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink-in feel or a supportive memory foam blend.

Plus, our pet-friendly stain-resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years.

Don't compromise quality for price.

Visit washablesofascom to upgrade your living space today, with no risk returns and a 30-day money-back guarantee.

Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns.

Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Authors are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Well, I am back talking with Mita Malik, who is the author of the brand new book The Devil Emails at Midnight.

So let's, let's talk a little bit more about if somebody is listening to this and wondering hmm, am I a bad boss?

Hmm.

Yeah.

I mean, it doesn't always get, you know, written on the board like she's a bad boss.

She's terrible.

Right.

How can we suss that out if if our team members are unhappy with our leadership?

I love that you use daughter language for my daughter.

Suss it out.

Right.

I here's.

What I would say is that there are three moments when bad boss behavior is going to show up.

Typically one is something's happening in the external market.

There are tariffs.

Your competition has beat you to the market with innovation.

Something has an M and a acquisition has failed, right?

Something's happening.

It's causing havoc.

It's causing stress.

Second, your boss is behaving badly and in my house we say poo, poo trickles down, so now you're taking on this person's energy.

And then the third is something's happened in your personal life.

You've lost a loved one, you've suffered a miscarriage, you break up divorce, move all these things that are really like earthquakes in your life and like how do you handle that?

So that's important.

And then i think you know for me i'll give myself as an example.

I know that micromanaging is my toxic habit.

I love a good slide and I love the good details and I want to get everything right.

And so if I know those moments, I can catch myself.

And someone might ask, like, how do you do this?

It's like for me.

I've had career journals throughout my life and I will document things that are happening.

And I think most people, Laura, know when they're behaving badly.

This book is not for the baddest of the bad bosses who've made headlines.

It's for the rest of us.

And so most of us know that something's off.

And if we can start to document.

And then I think the next thing is to ask for feedback.

And how I like to do.

This is not a former boss who would say at the end of my performance review how do you think I'm doing?

Tell me how I'm doing.

And you're like, ah, and then I tell him the truth and he loses it.

And he's like, that's actually not true.

And I'm like, okay, never giving you feedback again.

But if you put something in writing, like I say Laura, looking forward to coffee on Friday when we chat, I wanted to share with you some of the things I'm working on in terms of my own career development.

One of the things I want to work on is how do I delegate faster and how do I help coach the team through some of these mistakes.

I'd love your feedback on that.

And actually, I wouldn't even use the word feedback.

I would say coaching, right?

Because feedback sounds so like, oh. black or white, right or wrong, right?

And so if I did that, I give you time to digest it.

I'm vulnerable.

I'm telling you the things I'm working on.

And then when we have that conversation, you might actually say that's not actually what I think you should be working on.

I actually think it's this.

Well, giving feedback to a manager is incredibly challenging.

And I think well, the first problem is if your manager is sort of open to good feedback, that manager is probably not that bad.

Exactly, exactly.

Yes, yes, yes.

There is a bit of a catch-22 here with this.

But I mean, is there a way to suss out using that phrase again if someone is a problematic boss before taking a job?

Like, what are some smart things we should be doing through the interview process?

Well...

A bad boss likely might also be sign of toxic culture, right?

So one example I have that I'll never forget is I interviewed at a big beauty brand and boy did I want this on my resume.

And so I'll never forget, I did 11 rounds of interviews in a day.

And they didn't even offer me a glass of water.

And my mom said, they didn't offer you a glass of water.

You shouldn't take the job.

Isn't that interesting?

She said, they didn't.

And I said, no, I'm gonna take it.

Like, that's such a stupid reason not to take the job.

And let me tell you the signs were there from the rushed interview process, from the back-to-backs to the.

Everyone i loved, except my future boss isn't that interesting and so was distracted disengaged, talked over me, didn't really seem interested in being there and i sort of overlooked it because i really wanted the job.

I mean other signs.

I say it's like i like a good movie trailer.

So it's the, it's the sneak peek into what it might be like to work there.

So if the organization is hot and cold, they want you to meet next week.

Two days of interviewing and then they go cold.

And then they re-engage you like two months later, and you see the job posting swirly on LinkedIn.

There's something up.

If the recruiter pressures you on the next day to accept the offer on the spot, something's up.

And then just watch for the nonverbals.

If people seem in interviews not that interested or there seem like they're going through the motions.

Everyone's showing up late with really no apology or excuse.

You could really sense a lot from what is being unsaid in those conversations.

And sometimes the signs are there and I've been guilty.

I haven't, I just ignored them.

I wanted the job.

Well, I mean, are they showing respect to you as a person that would potentially be working with them as a colleague?

Because people don't suddenly become more respectful than they were.

Also, yeah, and you should be on your best behavior.

Isn't that true when I interview people?

Yeah, I'm going to be myself, but I'm going to try a little hard to charm you.

Just a little. bit extra because I want you to come.

Yeah, if they be bothered to spend time with this candidate.

But here's the thing.

So if you do have a bad boss, if you're working for somebody who would fit in one of these categories in your book, is your only option to quit?

Or can you maybe you know either reach your peace with the situation or make it better, or move yourself around.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that's a great question.

The book is not about quit every time you have a bad boss.

And in my dedication to my children, I dedicated the book and I said you're going to have a bad boss one day and I'm going to hand you this book because it's about like we will all have bad bosses.

But, you know, when I talk about the 13, three of them really impacted my mental health.

And so, if it's to the point where you're finding yourself being chipped away, you're being screamed at.

You know, true story, the Medusa who threw a Chanel shoe at my colleague right.

These things like, yeah, that's not a place you want to be, but there's a few options.

Number one, you can try to manage the boss, depending on what the, you're trying to retrain them.

You go back to your question on how people communicate and over communicator.

I had a boss who would text me pretty much every other day at 6 am just random thoughts and things they were thinking and I wouldn't respond until 830 over email.

And I started to retrain them to go back to email and stop showing up in my texts unless it's important.

And then the third thing is if it's something that you don't think you can tolerate for much longer, then that's a decision you have to make.

But if it's someone who's a micromanaging boss and it's slowly start creating the exit plan.

But also take the time to say I'm going to work for META for the next six months.

And I'm going to make sure I get the right bullets on my resume.

Let me make the most of this, right?

Let me make the most of this opportunity and say I'm not going to leave until I've finished this project or learn these skills.

Yeah.

Well, that can help you feel a lot more in charge of a situation too.

That it's like OK, it's just business or transactional.

I'm not under this person's thumb for the rest of my life.

I am just here for the next six months until I figure something out.

All right.

We're going to take one more quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Mita Malik.

Hey, listeners, today's tip is powered by National University.

Before breakfast.

You know my goal is to help you make the most of your day without sacrificing work or family time.