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Welcome to The Chase.
Hello and welcome back to the show.
Patrick here, as always, with Ben.
How are you, buddy?
Doing good, Patrick.
We've got a listener question this time around.
It's from our Chase Club member.
His name is Jeff. Just as a reminder, Chase Club is our premium membership.
You can get ad -free episodes.
As well as every day, every weekday in the morning, we send out something called the Daily Chase, which is a short, focused essay for you to start your day thinking in the right direction.
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And then, of course, we try to answer Chase Club members questions in episodes here.
So this, again, is from Jeff.
Thanks for sending it along.
He said, I wanted to thank you and Ben for the episode on Maslow's hierarchy.
Ever since then, the hierarchy has been floating around in the back of my head.
One thing occurred to me.
Have you guys considered the interaction between people at different levels of the hierarchy or how close friends and family members can influence an individual's place in the hierarchy?
patriarchy there's a friction that can develop between people at different levels and i wonder how to cope with it i have a severely handicapped chronically ill child i have come to accept that i sit at level two which is safety yet i am surrounded by people at levels three and four in both my work and family work in particular is pushing for level three and four accomplishments but they just don't matter to me when i'm worried about surviving the night yet i need work as part of level two so just before we start kind of getting into the spanish i want to do a very quick reminder as to what Maslow's
hierarchy is. It was developed by psychologist Abraham Maslow in 1943.
It's a theory that describes human motivation and personal growth through a five tier model.
The hierarchy is typically depicted as a pyramid with five levels from the bottom to top at the bottom is physiological needs like food, water, sleep, above that safety needs like security and stability above that love and belonging relationships and connection above of that esteem, things like self -worth and recognition.
And then at the top is self -actualization, which is when we reach our full potential.
So again, just for folks, a little bit of context.
Um, I think there's a lot in this question, but where would you like to be?
Oh boy. Um, uh, maybe to start off with not a lot of Abrahams anymore, are there?
Not a lot. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, okay. Having established that, maybe the next thing is just And the episode's done.
I think that – I think Jeff's an awesome – like the amount of awareness that Jeff has is so cool.
And the humility to actually say that I'm a level two dealing with people at three and four is inspiring.
I mean it's like it's cool to just know that listeners out there are digesting and internalizing and having the humility because it's one of those things like I feel like if I take a some sort of like assessment quiz I'm like I hope I score well.
Yeah. You know it's like you have that thing where like I want to I hope I'm in the self actions I hope I'm the level five I hope I'm the and for Jeff to go like raise his hand and be like yo I'm over here at level two.
Two. Um, that's really cool.
And then to ask, have you thought about the dynamics or, um, dynamics slash interaction, interactions, challenges of people that are interacting between two levels is really cool.
And it's probably something that we should have addressed in the, the original, um, show about this.
So, uh, cool to, for, to get to Jeff, to us, to circle back on this.
I think it's a really great spot.
I think maybe the first place to start is to lay a little bit of groundwork, not only just the different levels that you explained, but maybe it's to just peel that word away a little bit because levels and this pyramid that it's always described as, I think is probably part of the crux of the matter.
It's one of the reasons we've talked about with, this is very tangential to the mindset, set yeah right which is yes yeah you don't graduate from pessimist or from victim to pessimist to optimist you don't graduate and now you are there it's not like i've gone through elementary school then high school and i get my diploma and i am a high school graduate you go to college and i have my bachelor's degree and it's like that's who you are now you go get your master's or phd and you you are now.
This is, um, maybe if there's a way to describe this better, it wouldn't be the pyramid.
Um, it might be more like a, like a landscape or even better than a landscape.
It might be like a house, right?
And in the house, yeah, you might be on the top floor of the house, but you're as life takes place, you don't just stay there.
You're going to move throughout the entirety of of the house.
And some people might be stuck in the basement.
Some people might spend more time in whatever the penthouse, the top, but you're not there forever.
And just because you might have strong love and belonging, it doesn't mean that you're never gonna have to worry about uh safety right and the example that is uh people get uh sick they get cancer or they get into a car accident now your health your stability is now the most important thing you um um are all of a sudden thrust into a bad neighborhood like guess what like you now are worried about your safety more more than anything else so it is that understanding that at different phases of life certainly different seasons of life you're going to spend different amounts of times in different
areas now having said that we all would like to climb up to this place where we're spending more time at higher areas because you know I think you've even said these words before is like the goal is is to have better problems. You have a nice way of saying that, it's like the problems are never going away, the goal is to solve better problems. And if we're solving for that first level, that's really, that's a really challenging life.
Meaning you need to try to scrape together your next meal.
You don't know where your food is coming from.
You don't know where you're going to sleep tonight.
You are extremely dehydrated.
Like you, that's a really, really challenging place to live your life.
So nobody wants to be there.
We would so much rather have this, the problems we're facing and being like, where's my space in the universe?
What is the meaning of life?
Am I living out to my fullest purpose?
Like that's the, that's the highest level.
now the idea is going back to our first episode recording this you can't you can't work on those problems if you're freezing to death you're just worried about getting warm so that's the idea behind this where jeff is is in this safety thing where he's trying to create health for his child and he's trying to get through the night, as he said.
This is where the friction comes in.
When you're there and you're working with people that are working on the esteem thing, this is the social game, right?
Naval Ravikant, he's working on hierarchy in terms of social hierarchy.
This is what esteem is.
It's like, I want to achieve.
I want to climb the corporate ladder.
I want status. I want recognition.
When other people are playing that game and you're just trying to make it through the night, if people don't understand those two different perspectives, it can feel like, back to the house analogy, you're in the basement with a leaky roof and you're trying to patch the roof because you can't sleep because you have this Chinese water torture dripping on your forehead every night and you're living in this kind of like really tough you're not sleeping you're cold it's damp you're in a basement it's dark the people up in the penthouse don't have that it's not leaking there so the The communication between those
two people can be really disconnected because they're having totally different experiences.
Trying to bridge that gap is, is the way to, is the way to kind of like smooth that over.
And you'll recognize that, you know, if you're in the basement and you're like, Jeff's probably hearing things like, probably like stuff that people like, Like it's honestly, it's stuff that we talk about.
It's like you should journal.
You should get a morning routine practice.
You should go to the gym.
You should, what's your five -year plan?
Have you set out a vision?
What are your routines?
Like he doesn't have space.
Like that's not on his radar yet.
And it shouldn't be.
You don't want to work on those problems. So the first thing is for Jeff to have a level of acceptance, which it sounds like he already does, honestly, that we need to fight our fights and it's okay.
What might be helpful, and this can be hard and I wouldn't say like just Jeff, go do this.
I would go think about this, feel it out.
Does it feel right?
Are there people there that really care about you at your work?
Trust you, believe that you have your heart in the the right place?
And if so, at that place is where you could go, hey, I know that you're looking for me to be a bigger contributor.
Hey, I know that you're asking me to help the company grow, improve these key metrics, improve this, work overtime, contribute more.
Just explaining where I am in my life right now.
I don't have the space for that and being really honest and vulnerable.
Now, I say that with that disclaimer before it, because if you kind of go and say this and you're a team of, you know, if you were on a part of Goldman Sachs, you might not have a job on Monday because if you're not a high performer, go get it.
If we're not improving week over week, you're not going to be here.
They're trying to weed people out.
That's a telltale sign of being like, hey, I'm not here to be the...
Essentially, what you can do though is you can be really honest with people and go, look, I'm not looking for a promotion.
I'm not looking for the next level.
I'm not looking for a raise.
Sometimes some employers go, whew, thank God.
God, because I was worried I might lose you unless we promoted that can be a relief to some people.
And so just being really honest, what I'm trying to put all of my extra energy and resources to is the situation I got at home.
And that could bring a lot of.
Clarity and understanding, compassion from the other side, when you are not bringing the 100 percent effort to the workplace because you can't, but if they're expecting that and they don't know the struggles you're going through outside that can be a big thing and just go you know I hope to be a huge contributor to this organization to this team in the future but for right now in this near term this is what I'm dealing with so I think it's a way to kind of like just put the cards on the table and recognize people are approaching things from different places and that's okay not everyone is in the same
room in the house house.
We're all living the same house.
We're not all in the same room.
Sticking on the work thing for a minute, the one thing I was thinking about, and obviously we don't know what Jeff does for work, so if it's the Goldman Sachs scenario, it's a lot harder than the situation many of us are in.
But I was thinking about this particular challenge at work.
And I think one of the things that Jeff or people in Jeff's position can start to think about is to is to recognize that the value they bring to whatever they do for work is it's easy to think that it's the value is well i show up at eight o 'clock and i leave at six o 'clock but the truth is the value you bring is probably very specific and very unique and if you look at it through the lens of like an essentialist and you say what are the one or two things that i do better than anybody else here that if i continued to be the best at this thing then my boss my manager my co -workers are gonna let
the other stuff slide because everybody knows like okay Jeff doesn't respond to emails quickly or he's never going to show up for the office birthday party whatever it is but man his sales his sales numbers are the best of anybody or he you know shows up in x y and z way that we can't replace in any way so just recognizing that what what is the value that I bring here at work taking pride in that taking ownership of that And then creating really strict boundaries around the things I say yes to and the things I say no to such that work never becomes the drain that Jeff can't afford. He can't afford
a job that like, I got to check my email at 730 on Friday every night.
I got to be on my computer at Saturday morning, whatever it might be.
And so just really getting clear on what value do I bring here and what can I do to make sure that the value that I bring is so overwhelms the people I work with that I don't have to be the guy who is first one there and last one out.
Because to your point, Ben, that's not where my life is and it just can't be what the priority is.
So good. Good. It's, uh, it, this is a little counterintuitive to the message that we espouse a lot.
Um, in health, um, in life, we're trying to work on our weakest links, right?
So if you can, um, back squat, 400 pounds, run a five minute mile, do 50 pull -ups.
Okay. You're great in the gym.
Um, how was your eating?
Great. You're eating well.
How's your sleep? Oh, there it is.
If you improve your sleep, it'll have a bigger impact on your health than improving your diet or there's the law of diminishing returns, right?
So what most people think about in business is I have to be that well -rounded.
I have to work on my weaknesses.
That is the opposite approach that we should be taking.
So what you're saying is, where am I going to have the greatest value and impact?
The really kind of buttoned up little thing is double down, triple down on what you're the best at like where are you what are your strengths and lean way into those okay email not a strength get it like filling out reports get it really times you're not that thing but you get someone on the phone and you can close a deal guess what like go and like just do that and tell your employer that this is what you're best at this is what you can do the have the most impact on and the other cool thing is what you're good at probably doesn't feel like that much work to you and this goes back to that like
do what feels like play to you but looks like work to other people you put me on the phone trying to close somebody i'm gonna fumble i'm gonna get nervous for the call i'm gonna take 45 minutes to try to figure out what i'm gonna do you get on the phone you're just like you can just do it because it's easy for you because you're so good at your natural lean into your strengths and try to at all costs avoid your weaknesses you don't have the the the engineer the the code writer be your public spokesperson you don't have a public spokesperson writing code for you like you have you take what someone's
really good at and this is how you move forward in business it's not even like a sports team necessarily yes you have well maybe it is you don't have your wide receiver blocking these defensive tackles right you know your defensive tackles trying to go and catch balls you like specialize in business and a good coach and a good manager will know i got the right guy in the right position and i'm gonna and i'm my job is to make sure nothing gets in his way so that my wide receiver is the best wide receiver that we can get you know what happens then as well is you start to get a little bit more towards
that next level which is the first one is love next one up is love and belonging yep um but you start to get maybe maybe get a little bit of that esteem because now you are a strong contributor i would really just go into like if you were if you worked at my gym um and you were like hey uh listen i'm really struggling with um some stuff at home right now i'm in a season of life where i'm not going to be able to um put in the extra extra bandwidth that I want to.
I hope to be able to do that later on.
But right now, the growth, I'm not really in that season.
I want to contribute.
I want to be a high contributor, but I need to use the space that I have right now in a different way.
Do you think that instead of coaching classes, maybe I could be the person that does all the one -on -one onboarding for new members?
You're like, yeah, actually, that sounds awesome.
We could totally use that.
The person is like, yep, now I don't have to be there at nine.
I don't have to coach the seven, eight, nine.
I can kind of work with my schedule.
I put in calendly. People figure out what time works for me and I'm kind of working together with them.
It's in a one -on -one setting.
I don't get stressed out before.
I don't have to be big presence.
I can just kind of be compassionate.
The thing I'm really good at, based off of my example with my own kid.
so yeah i would just go towards like you called it out but like really go towards the way you could be the biggest contributor add the most value what are your biggest strengths it would be the less stress on you helps helps everything right it's gonna help you with your all the other levels as well yeah and i love what you you so when i said it was like figure out what you're you're really you're doing that's really valuable and double but i also like what you just said which is sort of reverse engineer Jeff, like, okay, this is my life.
This is the, this is the space, the energy, the time I have for work.
How can I reverse engineer my own limitations, the constraints that I have to put on this, because this is the way that life is right now.
And what can I do within those constraints to be the biggest, to be the best performer, to be the, to have the highest impact.
So I think there's two ways to get at the same idea, which is how do I, how do I increase the value of my output without increasing the amount of my input?
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Okay. Now let's get back to the show.
Most of us define success by outputs, right?
And I think that what we want to do is probably for Jeff is also give ourselves, if we're having a hard time getting to that love and belonging and esteem, it probably might make sense to also reflect a little bit on how do we define find success because to have self -esteem, you need levels of success.
That's really where it comes from.
And instead of measuring your success by your next promotion, start to measure it by your presence at home.
That's what success can be.
As you said, you're aware enough to go like, like, hey, I just need this job for survival.
But success is not the job.
Success is, can you keep your job and can you bring true impact to the home?
It's not about how many boxes you're checking.
It's about how well you carry this weight that you never asked for.
Like, can you just do that to the very best of your ability?
And that's a hard thing because it's not society's definition of success, which is do you have the BMW, the pretty wife, and take fancy vacations and what's your Instagram account look like?
You're going to do it on a way more meaningful level.
Guess what? The people that are just chasing that esteem level and haven't done it for the right reasons don't get to that top level.
You can almost bypass that level in a way and get to true, authentic meaning and purpose to your life if you redefine success along the way.
Yeah, I love that. Speaking of the the sort of middle tier, the love and belonging.
The one thing I mean, again, we don't we only know very little about Jeff's situation, but I think one of the things that could be that could happen easily is self isolation in pursuit of taking care of his kid.
and and being really clear that it doesn't have to be isolating any more than it has to be if that makes sense like it it's going to be isolating to the degree that it's going to be isolating but it doesn't mean you can't build strong relationships with family members which he mentioned and colleagues which he mentioned for example like if he's just like I can't I don't have any relationships with the people at work because I'm here I do my job and I leave and I to go take care of my kid.
I bet you can do your job better if your colleagues understand why you don't stick around on Friday nights to go to the barn or why you are slow at answering your emails and actually being vulnerable enough and open enough to create relationships, to create bonds with people who, yeah, maybe, maybe don't have the same challenges as you, but being, but recognizing that it's the opening up to them about the challenges that actually create the love and belonging that it seems like Jeff is like, I can't afford that.
I can't have that. And when you do that again, to your point, Ben, like that's the ratcheting up to the self -esteem and that makes the safety and security level easier to the degree that it's going to be easier for Jeff because he's got a support system.
He's got somebody he can lean on.
He's not doing it it alone.
He's not isolated. He doesn't feel like it's him against the world.
Yeah. I think it's really easy to feel dismissed and misunderstood, alienated, isolated in Jeff's situation.
And I think the word you use is exactly right, is opening up and being vulnerable about your challenges.
There's nothing that connects people more and builds more trust than vulnerability.
It's the exact opposite of what we all kind of intuitively feel, right which is this idea of like if i show my weakness i'm going to it comes from like like life like warrior center like if i if i show where i'm vulnerable that's where i'm going to attack me that's where they're gonna attack exactly instead what happens is you go that's where i'm vulnerable and it's like putting out um tentacles that attach it's like you need to To attach through these areas of vulnerability.
It's the reason that I and so many people fall in love with Heather, my wife, is because she's so vulnerable.
Like there's nothing that's off guard. And you meet her for the first time and she's right away talking about these absurd things.
And you're like, oh shit, did we just become best friends?
Yeah, exactly. But no, that's exactly what it is, right?
That's exactly it, yeah.
You're like, oh my God, so we're already there?
We can do this? this is safe we can have these conversations like you're not going to try to impress me you're going to just like put this all out there people love it shows authenticity because we're all imperfect beings we are all imperfect now if you get surrounded by people that are hard -ass um um you know high performers in a negative way that don't want to be around that at all because they They see it as weakness.
That can't be your crew anyway.
So it's like you're not going to get any sort of meaningful life out of that anyway.
So as you are vulnerable, as you are sharing your true challenges, if that's not resonating – and you have to do it in an EQ way, right?
You can't just come out and burst out like, this is what I'm struggling with and this is what's so hard. And you have to do it appropriate time, place, tone, and level for everything.
Degree. Degree is the right word. Thank you.
But if we're able to do that and create those bonds, like it just allows for so much. First, as you said, is the obvious transactional aspect of why are we not getting emails back, you know, in 12 hours?
Like why sometimes does it take you 18 hours or even 24 hours?
why are we not why on friday night aren't you coming and hanging out with us when we all go to the pub afterwards and you're out of here right at five o 'clock like if they don't understand what actually is going on they're going to be storytelling they're going to be telling their own stories about it yep so i love that it's like that is a huge aspect of um crossing the chasm right you're in the basement trying to plug the leaky roof they're up in the bedrooms or the penthouses not dealing with leaky roofs you going hey guys just a heads up not complaining here just letting you know where i am
right now in life has a leaky roof um i'm willing to deal with that i'm willing to take that burden of making sure that the roof doesn't fall apart but it's just going to mean that i'm not going to be able to kind of do some of the things that you guys do when you're up in this sound weird but we guys do when you're up in in the bedroom.
You know, you guys are having, you guys are doing different things.
We're living in different rooms of the house.
Yep. Uh, last thing, and you, you hinted at it kind of at the top of this conversation, but I think it might make sense or might be worth talking briefly about the realist mindset.
And, and it seems like, and I thought about it because it seems like Jeff is pretty darn close to that, but I think it's also really important to recognize that it's one One thing to say, well, I can't pour myself into work and relationships because I've got to take care of my kid.
That's the realist. But if what you're saying is it's not fair that I can't pour into work or relationships because I've got to take care of this kid or nobody else has to deal with the things that I have to deal with.
And therefore, when they talk to me about their problems, all I see is silliness, right?
Right. That's different than than recognizing it, being honest, being clear and not storytelling about it.
And I think that that's where Jeff, again, from the little we got, it seems like Jeff is there.
But that, I think, is the danger is just making sure that we're a realist without lying to ourselves, without without pretending to be there, but really being a pessimist, really being a victim.
So good. I'm so glad you pulled on that.
Yeah, that's – Victor Frankl has – huge Victor Frankl.
I think everybody should read Mansford Tremini every year.
I have not done that, but I have read it a few times.
But now that I'm saying that out loud, I think I'm going to.
Yeah, it's just so good.
He has this awesome quote, which is when we – I'm going to paraphrase it because I'm not going to get it exactly.
But when you can't change the situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Yep. That's it. So to your point is like Jeff can't change his situation with his kid.
Like that's that's that's the reality of where we are.
It's so easy then to go in like, why can't this situation just like why did this happen to me?
Like, it's not fair that they get to.
It's your all you're doing is looking at circumstances and situations and not accept it.
Like what we're saying is Viktor Frankl saying, accept it.
And then now let's work on changing ourselves.
ourselves and jeff seems like he's pretty much there but i think there's a lot of us that might be a not as dire or not as challenging of situations that we look to you're in traffic like the easiest one ever right it's raining like instead of going like god i can't believe it did this that go like whoa internal can i work i can't change this can i this is what the realist does the realist just accept it and turns in the warrior is like yeah this this is the thing this is the thing that's gonna make me better they lean in so we're not even getting there just all we're doing is going like accept
and turn inward if we can just always do that accept meaning meaning let it go.
Don't carry the extra weight of this thing.
Let it go and turn inward. And I think if Jeff or anybody in Jeff or us, but folks in a situation like if they, if we are able to do that, that accepting, that turning inward, that not blaming, that not not storytelling.
Truthfully, do that long enough and you'll get to self -esteem.
Do that long enough and you'll get to this idea of self -actualization.
It's not, it's not a, like the situation is not the barrier.
It's the interpretation of the situation that is the barrier.
And so if we can change our interpretation, we can begin to elevate up this, up this hierarchy.
Hmm. Yeah. It's good.
If we change our kind of like perspective on the whole thing, right.
Sometimes, sometimes excellence, right.
Isn't, isn't about climbing, you know, it's about staying rooted right where you are and taking care of some really meaningful, important stuff.
Yep. That takes courage.
Yeah. Oh, totally. Yep.
A hundred percent. Absolutely.
Okay, let's wrap it up there.
Jeff, hope that was helpful.
Thank you for the question.
We wish you nothing but the best. Thank you very much for tuning into the show.
Make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening or watching so you do not miss another episode.
For more frameworks and daily practices, visit chasingexcellence .email.
And don't forget to tap the link in the show notes for today's full listener guide where we break down the key ideas and provide actionable steps to help you put them into practice Until next time, keep building health, finding freedom, and living with your heart on fire.
