I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
So good to see you again.
So good to see you too.
Now what is interesting, as I was saying to the audience, you actually have been fighting for women before the whole Me Too movement, before Time's Up.
You've been doing it in your own way.
You've been doing it internally and externally.
For over 20 years.
Yeah.
And so what was the thunderbolt moment for you that caused you to say I must stand up number one for myself and also do that for other women.
How did women's rights become a calling?
I think that just by observing the situation of the world, not just one country, and noticing that always we had it harder and we really did have it harder,
I think the one thing that moved me the most was the thought of mothers.
How hard it is to be a mother and have children and have less opportunities and be constantly judged, And it's not an easy road.
So I started with children and mothers, and then I became really passionate about domestic violence, because I think this is where everything starts.
This cycle of violence in the world starts at home, and it is also a reflection of what's happening outside in the world.
When a woman cannot feel safe at home, when the children cannot feel safe at home.
But when they take violence as the normality Even if it's very painful, deep inside of them it becomes normality.
So when they go out in the world, they think that violence is a way for resolving problems or expressing anger.
And then it starts a ripple effect.
Most of the people that have experienced a home where they grew up with violence.
They repeat the cycle.
So I thought one way to change the world was to change the mentality of what is OK and it's not OK inside a house.
And although the law, of course, supposedly says it's not OK, when a lot of women went to report it They were ignored.
They were ignored or made fun of or think this or that.
And sometimes they had no support, also from their own families, because they already think it's normal.
Well, we have seen how the Harvey Weinstein scandal has actually allowed this conversation about violence against women, sexual harassment against women in particular, become the catalyst for bringing those issues to the forefront.
What do you think happened that this became the tipping point?
Why was this the right time for a tipping point?
This is a very loaded question.
Yeah.
We could do the whole thing on this because it's very important.
Yes.
I think that sometimes we underestimate our efforts, everybody's efforts, and the power that it has for change.
The only reason that this is working right now.
It's not only because the women we spoke out, but it's also because everybody listen.
And I think that what happens is that we start making changes and we don't see the results, and we think the change is not happening.
Humans are slow to change.
Right.
It's the thing we fear the most.
Yes, and it's the thing we fear the most because we want to control the change.
We say, we want change as long as I know what is the result.
Yeah.
Where, when...
It's not a change.
If you can see the result, you are operating with who you are today.
We have to be brave and excited about the unknown result of the change by putting the effort into the right little things we do every day.
And then we have to trust that if the little things you do every day are morally correct, then the change you might not see it, but it will happen and you can never give up on it, because all these efforts of every single one of you, of everyone, they pile up until there is an explosion.
Yeah, okay, so let's talk about the explosion.
It's interesting.
I was on set with Reese Witherspoon, who's since spoken out and is a part of the Time's Up movement, and some other actresses who haven't spoken out, so I won't say who they were.
And this was like two days after the Harvey scandal had broken in the New York Times.
And everyone, including Reese I've said this to her was acting like I have seen some of my girls at my school behave who were suffering from PTSD.
Everybody was acting like they were afraid and that they were having a conversation.
And I remember Reese saying, oh, God, this is just so upsetting.
And every time somebody mentions his name, I start tearing up.
And every time I hear someone else speak, it just causes me to be upset.
And I haven't slept in two days, someone else said.
So I said, gee, you guys are suffering from PTSD.
Did something happen? happened to you, nobody said anything at the time.
So what I realized was happening is that the Harvey scandal triggered, within a lot of other people who had experienced sexual violation, sexual harassment from other people.
It triggered it even though it had not come from Harvey.
But for you, who had had a previous experience of violation by Harvey Weinstein, What did it trigger in you when you first heard about the scandal?
They contacted me to be a part of the first... Story.
The first story.
The New York Times.
The New York Times.
Already by this contact, it was all this turmoil.
So already I started crying when they asked me.
Yeah.
I ended up not doing it.
And you started crying why?
I started crying because of the same thing, you know?
PTSD, yeah.
Yes.
And I ended up not doing it, and then I felt ashamed that I was a coward, that I'd been working, you know, supporting women for
Two decades, and then I didn't come up.
I was a coward.
I thought of all these different things, including my child.
I don't want to talk about it.
But I was also.
You know what was the one thing?
I was the most ashamed Because shame, it's a cycle of shame.
You're ashamed of one thing, and it leads you to another shame, and another shame, and another shame.
That I was pretending everything was OK.
So I had been around Harvey acting like everything is OK.
And I didn't tell my husband.
I only told him, oh, he's such a bully, he was such a bully.
But by now, Harvey, he had a lot of respect for me.
Throughout the years, I ended up turning that, that man looked up at me and he had a lot of respect.
I earned it with blood, but he did.
So I was able to let go and move on.
And so So you were able to let go of having feeling violated or having been violated by him before.
Do you feel comfortable discussing what the violation was?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I feel comfortable talking about it.
So tell us what happened.
He never raped me.
Yeah.
But...
The article, one of the most difficult things about writing that article is that I have a book.
It was not one or two occasions, it was five years.
Because, for the people who have not read the article, is that he owned my project, that I had already been developing, of Frida.
He bought it.
It was very nice.
There was no signs of predator behavior.
He signed me to do other movies with him, and I thought this was the chance.
Oh my God, because I had really struggled and nobody believed in me, nobody thought much of me and this guy, who was very important really, I thought, saw my artistic value.
And so now he owned me.
And during five years, he didn't want to do the movie.
So in five years, there were a lot of different things.
Number one, he told me.
I'm going to kill you.
And I didn't write this in the article, but he said I am going to break the kneecaps of that.
The C word.
He called you the C word?
He called me the C word.
Well, you know, if you're Mexican, you don't really know what that really means or how different it is.
I have to say... How different it is in the B word.
Or from the P word.
Or the P word, okay.
You know?
They don't even know what the P word is.
It's the same meaning as the C word.
They know.
They know.
But with the P, it means you're like a, you know, like a sissy.
I don't know, like somebody who's not strong, you know, like a chicken.
Yeah.
But with the C word, then it means you're like the B word, no?
What does it mean?
No, I definitely, no, no.
The C word is definitely way worse than the B word.
Anyway, I knew it was bad.
I knew.
And anyway, I didn't care about the seat where I care about my knees.
I care about my knees.
That's good.
But he wanted me to do things.
I mean, all the massage, the this, the that. it was a constant and then when it wouldn't happen.
I don't want to go into the details, not because I don't want to go into the details.
I don't want to go into the details because we have more important things to talk about and we have to make sure that we don't get distracted with the gossip and with the details, because I'm not going to miss this opportunity.
But I was depressed.
I was paranoid.
I lived in fear.
I tried to get out.
I couldn't get out.
Every woman that's been in a similar situation that I can guarantee you is the majority, not just here or of the world understands that once you enter these dynamics it's really, really hard to you, don't see the way out.
There always is a way out.
The fear, the anger, the humiliation blurs your sight.
What do you see now that you could have done differently then?
Because I feel now that Women Speaking Out has given other women in other parts of the world and other businesses a feeling of I can say something.
I couldn't have done anything different.
I am actually very proud about how I handled it.
You are?
Yes, because the only different thing, maybe I could have said something.
Yeah.
But nobody would have heard you then.
Not only that, he was really very good at what he did.
Penelope was furious at me because I never told her something.
And then I told her I was running the thing.
And I said...
He made the best movies.
If I tell you, if I tell Robert Rodriguez, they have business dealings with him.
He's not doing the same to you guys.
And then I ruin your business opportunity.
I didn't know there were so many women. that he was the, I thought I was the only one.
That's what every good predator does.
Yeah.
That's what every good predator does.
And what's interesting in the experience I was having with the actors on that couple of days after the dance went, I thought oh, you guys are reacting the way I've seen molested children behave.
Molested children.
Hold the secret, hold the secret.
Hold the secret because you think you're the only one it's ever happened to.
And part of the triggering, part of the trauma, the PTSD that comes up is not just the guilt.
I held it, I didn't tell anybody, but I'm not the only one.
You mean, I could have spoken up and I could have had you and you and you and you, who also were going through the same thing.
And I think it's important that we say to the victims because I work with a lot of different kinds of victims you did what you could do At that time.
At that time.
That is true.
And you should not feel guilty.
And not everybody needs to speak out now.
It's really hard.
Because there's other women that can, that are at a place where they can and they have.
But you have to move away, you know?
So when the New York Times called you, you said you weren't ready to do it.
It caused you to cry and think about it in a different way.
You went through all the trauma.
When did you know you were going to write the essay and that the essay was the best way for the New York Times?
When it came out, I was ashamed that I didn't speak up.
And then when so many women came out, this is a strange sensation.
I felt that all the pain that I had that was so much and such important part.
And by the way, he was not the first time.
He was not the first time.
That's why I could handle him better.
And I'm just going to say this because it might help someone.
I was very strong in front of him.
And I was smart how I sneaked my way out.
But he didn't see me.
Maybe that's why I didn't get raped also.
He didn't see me.
I handled it really well.
But now that I saw there were so many And this is maybe the wrong feeling to have, but I want to be honest.
I felt like my pain was so small because there were so many that also had the same pain.
But for me, it was so big.
But when you see that everybody's had the same, you have that little moment when you say but what about how much I suffer?
Everybody the same?
That means I didn't suffer special.
There is a moment.
And I think it's human.
And I was like, well, there's no point for me to talk because it just happens to everyone.
And then I felt that by itself, it was just my own little drama.
But when we come together, put the drama aside and unite with each other, then it's not about drama.
It's not about pain.
It's about evolution.
It's about becoming part of something that moves powerfully and that can make the big change happen.
I just want to say that you said in your essay.
You listed all the times you had to say no to Harvey Weinstein's sexual advances.
No to me taking a shower with him.
No to letting him watch me take a shower.
No to letting him give me a massage.
No to letting a naked friend of his give me a massage.
No to letting him give me oral sex.
No to my getting naked with another woman.
No, no, no, no.
I think it's hard sometimes for people who work outside of Hollywood, in the media, to understand how women they perceive, like yourself, to be rich and famous and gorgeous, could be subjected to assaults like this.
Is it hard for you to imagine?
I've had struggle with assault before I was in every situation.
So he wasn't the first one?
No, no, but he was the only one for five years.
He was the only one for five years.
So the other person has that person.
I call them now fallen trees.
Has that person been named or been outed?
The other person
No, they're not all famous.
They're not all in Hollywood.
It's not about... I've had this problem since I was very little.
People don't talk about too much.
When they think somebody's attractive, people say, oh, she has it easy.
The attractive woman is never the underdog because they're attractive.
We are really really good subjects for rape and violation and attack and sometimes attack from other women.
I mean, I'm not complaining.
I understand exactly what you're saying.
But it comes with some issues too.
And so, would you say, from a very young age, you had to learn how to say no and keep the assaulters away.
Yeah.
Yes, it is full of contradictions, because we are told you have to be the Virgin Mary, but you have to do what I say when I say okay, you have to be attractive.
But you cannot be too attractive, because then you are telling me that I can do whatever I want with you.
What the do you want?
Jesus.
I mean, who the hell am I supposed to be?
I want you to be good looking for me, but not good looking for the other ones.
But don't come out looking like that.
But don't look too good.
So it's a learning to manage it, although you are aware.
So this is why I love the conversation with you.
You're obviously a very beautiful woman, and you've been beautiful your whole life.
And most women who are beautiful don't admit that they are or that that also gives you a, Gives you some power.
I was just going to say... But it comes with a price.
It gives you some power but comes with a price.
And then they expect you to continue to look beautiful for the rest of your life.
Which comes with some pressure.
Which comes with some pressure.
Some pressure.
But you know what it is?
The point how to handle it, I'm going to tell you when it comes. when you say, screw you.
I am going to discover who I am, not who you want me to be.
And I will maybe mingle in the things that I'm supposed to here and there, but I am going to be aware every second Where am I here?
Ask yourself this question every day.
What is your name?
I cannot hear.
Alicia.
When you're doing with your kids, when somebody is telling you you should have done something different, when you're trying so hard to get the job right.
When you're lost in the stress and the chaos, say, wait, wait, wait.
Where am I?
Where is Alicia?
What does Alicia want?
We don't even ask this question.
We just try to survive the day.
Which is the most important question, actually.
Where am I?
What do I really want?
Yes.
Yes.
What do I really want?
Yeah.
So you learn to say no early.
I learned to say no and I learned to use their madness.
Yeah, but when you were doing the Frida Kahlo story, when you were doing that story it was one of the most I remember interviewing you on the Oprah show about it.
You were so passionate about it.
You put your heart into it.
You had given everything you had to make that come into fruition.
And so was there a part of you that felt like it was necessary to take whatever you needed to take to get that done.
This was not to me, it was not a movie.
It was a calling.
Yeah.
There's something different.
Yeah, I got that.
I really knew...
And I'm not going to tell you.
I had a lot of strange signs also that I had to get this done, that it was an important spiritual journey for me, that I had a contract with this story somehow from before I was an actress.
So I was very, very driven, and also because it was so strong, it gave me this insane security when everybody said you're crazy, it's never gonna happen that somehow it was gonna happen because there was something magical about it.
But also, I was not willing to do anything for it.
Because when you have a calling, you know.
It's supposed to happen.
It's supposed to happen, but you cannot get lost in the way of your own calling.
Ah.
You cannot lose yourself.
You cannot lose yourself.
It was a constant struggle.
You cannot get lost in the way of your own calling.
Yes, you have to stay you.
You have to keep your principles.
And I struggled with depression also.
It's not just I struggle.
What he was doing gave me the depression.
And the depression doesn't want to make you do anything.
And I had to struggle with that demon too.
Because the depression, you feel so small.
You feel so small.
You feel like you're behind a veil.
When somebody is on top of you the whole time and you are powerless, you feel so small.
And I was trying to do something so big that nobody believed in. on top of already feeling small.
And, on top of it, he made sure because the abusive behavior is that the first thing they do is destroy your confidence.
Yep, yep.
That's the first thing they do.
Women around the world took to social media to share their support for you.
Once you wrote that op-ed piece for the New York Times.
A woman named Allison posted, Salma Hayek's New York Times piece, moved me to tears.
We are done apologizing.
Someone on Twitter said Salma Hayek is not only changing the perception of women, but changing the world.
How did it feel to hear that once you came forward?
Once I came forward, I hid.
I didn't read it.
I didn't take off the phone.
You didn't read it, so you're hearing it.
That's what women are saying.
Because I felt such a relief.
I was terrified.
It took me months.
You asked me why an essay.
I wanted to tell my story.
Was writing it healing and cathartic for you?
Yes.
Yes.
But it took me months.
I cry every time I would take off that pen because I don't know you do the machine.
I'm old.
I cry.
I'm awful with the things.
With the things.
But I don't want a picture for my Instagram.
OK, OK.
We'll get that.
We'll make sure that happens.
So you started writing it.
So after the New York Times called and you said, No, it took me a while.
Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.
Okay, I'm going to do it.
I would start, no, I'm not going to do it.
Nobody cares about what I have to say already.
Other people say it.
That was the other thing.
That was the next step.
And finally, I said it because there was something I felt nobody had talked about, which was it was not only the abuse, the sexual harassment, it's the undermining, the abuse of being constantly undermined because we're women.
And this was important too because it's so painful.
You say...
Women need to stop apologizing.
Why is that one of the keys to healing this trauma?
I cut it short sometimes.
Women need to apologize to themselves.
They have to have this moment Not to apologize, no, to forgive.
Yeah, that's the word.
To forgive themselves.
When you forgive yourself, you stop apologizing for others.
It's important to take responsibility also of the things we do to others.
It's important.
But we have to stop apologizing for being attacked.
And we must move into a place where you can actually have a conversation.
It is important to release the anger.
I don't want us to go from victims to angry.
I don't want our victimization to be our motor and then our anger to be our motor.
That doesn't mean that we're not angry.
I am a short, Mexican, Arab, angry woman.
I know how to channel that and transform it so that it doesn't blur my sight and I can see ahead and I can use that energy, transforming a motor that is productive, because anger is not productive.
Well, I've heard some people call the Me Too movement a moment and saying it's a moment.
I think that's because we live in a world where the news cycle changes and our attention span changes and people feel like okay, so now the women are having their moment.
How do you ensure this becomes a movement and not a moment?
It's not going to be a moment.
There's nothing we can do to stop it, because it's about changing the collective conscience.
And what I said is that change was not only done by the people who spoke, but by the people who listened, especially the ones that listen and didn't believe it, didn't think it was right, were uncomfortable.
They still had to stop and think about it for a second.
We have become aware of something.
There is a lot of men that really didn't even know there was something wrong with it.
There really is.
And now they're all confused.
Oh my God, what am I?
What can I say?
What can I not say?
They're all in a panic.
I feel for some of them.
But it's a beautiful thing because they are thinking.
They're taking a moment to take into consideration what would be the feeling of the other person.
And this makes a change on who they are as a man because They are stopping to think.
And it's a positive thing.
Anyway, you slice it.
Not only, it's not a moment.
It is a moment in time that has been coming for, we've been working for this for centuries.
Our moment came, and life will never be the same.
But also, it's very exciting for other reasons.
I will tell you why.
Why?
Tell me why.
It really proves that change can happen, because We are not patient with change, like we talked about before.
It gives me hope that we can change in other ways.
And it is very important that we don't become cynical about our little changes, that we acknowledge our little changes, every single person's changes, and also, as a community, that we acknowledge them and that we don't lose hope that it will continue.
I think this also happened now because we are so frustrated with the government getting away with incredible things and all the lying and all the covering, and it's It did something good in this case, I think.
People were frustrated enough that said, no.
What is this lie after lie after lie?
Because the constant lying, it's a cynical manipulation of our ignorance and our apathy towards our communities.
Final question.
Has this allowed you?
I've heard you speak before about the importance of honor and conviction in your life.
So has this movement your work with speaking out for yourself and being inclusive of other women.
Has it given you a greater sense of conviction?
And how important is conviction?
Oh, conviction is very, very important because you are alone in reality.
You are alone in life and it's a beautiful place to be if you make peace with yourself.
If you have a good relationship with yourself, there's so much to find.
We have so many possibilities.
We actually don't spend enough time with ourselves.
And many times we fall into the trap to do things so that other people have a perception of who we are.
When you do things with conviction, even failure is very bearable.
We're all afraid of failure, but if you fail trying to impress someone else or do it for others or want it all, then it's terrible, the failure.
It wasn't even really maybe what you wanted to do.
But with you fail with conviction, even that, it's veritable.
And at the end of the day, You can lie and BS your way through life, but you're going to end up alone one way or another.
We have to make peace with this.
You can have a lot of love, but the mystery of life, to me, is the relationship with you and you.
As long as you need the others to feel comfortable, you will always suffer from anxiety.
And conviction is that place where, even if you make a mistake, You are at peace why you made that mistake.
And mistakes sometimes are the greatest gifts that you can give.
Selma Hayek.
Thanks for your wisdom.
Thanks for your wisdom.
Thanks for inviting me.
Thank you.
Bye.
Salma Hayek, everybody.
I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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Thank you for listening.
