I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
One of the world's foremost food experts, Michael Pollan, challenges us to really look at the things we so often overlook, like the food on our plates or the plants that surround us.
A master of unlocking the mysteries of nature, Michael has written seven books, including five New York Times bestsellers.
He's also been named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World.
His brilliant 2006 work, The Omnivores Delima, opened our eyes in a whole new way.
Michael looked at four meals and asked one simple question, where exactly does our food come from?
From the elegant simplicity of food rules to the spiritual journey of his latest book cooked, stepping into Michael's mind, you won't look at your food the same way again.
Okay, so your journalist, your author, your professor, and activist who's, you know, now the voice when it comes to conscious eating.
Did you set out for that?
No, no. Because you really started out as a nature writer, right?
Yeah, and I still am. I mean, food is very much about nature.
And I think if you care a lot about nature and our engagement with the natural world, sooner or later you've got to take account of agriculture because we affect nature more through our eating choices than anything else we do.
Is it true that you're awakening, you're conscious awakening happened with you in nature?
In the garden. Yeah, from the time I was eight, I had a grandfather who was a wonderful gardener and he was in the produce business.
And I loved hanging out and harvesting in particular.
And we're just so magic, you'd get these, you know, ripe vegetables and fruits just came from nothing.
And so my first book was about gardening.
One of the things you say is that the garden is an unhappy place for the perfectionist because too much stands beyond our control here.
And the only thing we can absolutely count on is a virtual catastrophe.
It's also a way of looking at life, you know, with a garden as metaphor.
Well, the gardener, the gardener is a great metaphor.
And one of the things it's a metaphor for is the fact you can't control everything.
And that there are other living beings that you share this place with.
And unless they, unless you respect what they need, you're not going to get what you want.
And that's a really important lesson.
I mean, it's not I mean mine all the time.
Now you've now primarily given us the rules to live by for food, which are really quite simple.
I remember when you were on the show years ago, yes.
Eat food. Eat food. Not too much.
Mostly plants. Mostly plants.
You know, I spent two years trying to get to the bottom of what do we know about the lengths between diet and health?
What does nutrition tell us?
And the deeper I dug and the more science I looked at, it got simpler and simpler and simpler.
And, you know, the wonder is that we complicate eating so much.
And that we obsess about good nutrients and bad and, you know, we fill our heads with all this biochemistry.
I mean, where else in your life do you use terms like antioxidant and omega-3s and fatty acids?
And we feel like you must be a biochemist to eat.
And of course, people have eaten for thousands of years without knowing any of that stuff.
Well, interesting because on Super Soul Sunday, you know, we talk about all things spiritual.
And nothing actually more spiritual than the process of eating and cooking.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, when we eat, we're taking nature.
We're taking the world into our bodies.
That's a very profound thing.
And we're changed by what we eat.
And we in turn change what we're eating.
So it's our, I think it's our most profound engagement with the natural world.
Happens on our plates. It affects.
That's interesting. Our most profound engagement with the natural world.
Happens on our plates. Yeah.
Is that what you mean when you say in the book that food is about a series of relationships?
Yeah. Yeah. Food links us to other people, obviously.
And not just the people we feed, but the people who feed us, the farm workers and the people who cut up the meat in the slaughter houses.
We have a relationship with them.
And we have a relationship with these other species with the plants that we eat, with the animals that we eat.
And that's what's been invisible to us because we eat in such a thoughtless way.
And so much of my work has been a rediscovery of those links, those connections.
Now, and the reason why it's such a spiritual connection is because three times a day you say, which I'd never thought of it this way before either, that three times a day we get to express our values through it.
Yeah. What an opportunity.
What a power. Because what we choose to eat and what we choose not to eat is one of the ways we get to embody what we care about.
I mean, for example, whether you eat animals or not, it's a big question for people.
Do you want to eat in a way that supports the environment and clean water and clean air?
Do you care about labor and the people who feed us and how they're treated?
I mean, you have an opportunity to express that, to vote.
And in a way, we don't, in many other parts of our lives, we don't get that kind of power.
And that's a relatively new thing.
And yes, I think you are the master of bringing this to the forefront of our consciousness to get us to start thinking about, where does your food come from?
Yeah. That was really the essence of the movement was a knot.
And that's how my work began.
I was answering the simplest, dumbest question that I realized nobody knows.
Where does our food come from?
This is, you know, something that everybody knew a hundred years ago, right?
That's right. You could not write a best-selling book on such an obvious topic a hundred years ago because not even a hundred.
I mean, I am so I'm old enough that I grew up with my grandmother on a little tiny, little farm.
And you went out the door, she cultivated it.
There was a thing, a thing that we ate that she didn't plant and so and reap.
There's, there's just not a thing.
And that was typical. I mean, everyone either was a farm family or new farm families or went to farms to get there.
I longed for canned food.
I really did. I thought, gee, I want to be like those rich people who eat, you know, the peas from the jolly green giant.
I don't want to just go out and get a lot of people fled the farm.
And farm was hard work. And interestingly, if you also talk about the fact that we now live in a world where you go to any restaurant or you go to hotel, there's the children's menu.
Yeah. There was a time when children ate real food and ate the same food that everybody else did.
I think the idea of a separate children's cuisine is such a such a bad idea for kids and for parents.
It means they're they often get stuck.
I mean, we fell into this trap with my son.
We cooked different things for him because he didn't he didn't eat very much.
And the idea that yeah, kids eat, you know, kids food is hamburgers, french fries and pizza and nuggets.
And that's the classic children's menu, all of which obviously are not very healthy.
But it suddenly it drives a line through the dining table, you know, eating from the same pot, eating the same food puts people on the same emotional page.
And if everyone at the table is eating something different, you lose a connection.
So is your calling, do you think, Michael, do bring more consciousness to the way we consume food?
Is that your calling? Yeah.
I mean, you put it very eloquently.
I mean, that is basically what I'm doing.
I'm not telling people how to eat.
I don't have a prescription for everyone how to eat.
Because you still eat meat.
I do still eat meat. I mean, in a very selective way and not very much of it.
But I don't know enough to tell you how to eat.
And I feel that would be arrogant.
But I'm asking of people is just think about it.
Be conscious. Realize that it's a momentous decision.
It's also an incredibly empowering decision.
And take advantage of that.
And why is it empowering?
Because you do have this opportunity to support one kind of world or another agriculture to local farmers.
Exactly. You make a carbon footprint, whether you want to or not.
Yeah. And you can. So depending on what you value, whether it's the environment or the welfare of animals or farm workers or your health and concerned about pesticides, you now have this menu of choices, which we have not had.
Because it used to be only 30 years ago, 20 years ago, you went to the supermarket.
You know, it was all conventional food, so-called.
But now with organic and local and humane, you have opportunities that you never have.
So that's very empowering, I think.
And we should take advantage of it.
And not feel it's a burden.
So you call your most recent book.
I love it. Cut. And you say that this was the most spiritual book you've written.
What did your time in the kitchen really do for your soul?
Yeah. You know, I never thought I'd write a book about cooking.
I mean, I love food and I like to cook, but I never took it very seriously.
But the more I was working on these food issues and in my advocacy work, working to reform the food system, which is, you know, a high priority in mind, the more I realized that so many of our problems owed to the collapse of cooking, that home cooking is not happening the way it used to.
We only spend 27 minutes a day on average cooking, four minutes cleaning up.
We're letting corporations cook our food.
And that is at the heart of many of the problems we face.
The obesity epidemic, the epidemic of type 2 diabetes, these things are the result of letting industry cook for us because they don't cook very well.
They use way too much salt, fat and sugar.
And they engineer the food to get us to eat too much of it.
That's how they make more money, the more they can get you to eat.
They're not interested in your satisfaction at the table.
They're interested in your cravings.
And they're very good at engineering those.
So I realized if we don't...
That's why you eat things and can't stop because it's been engineered to make you not stop.
Oh yeah. They know how to press your buttons.
They're really good at it.
And the way they make you not stop, it's a combination of sugar, salt and fat.
And when you layer those together...
Sugar, salt and fat. Irresistible.
The potato chip is the great example.
And I have a weakness for potato chips.
We all do. As do I, yep. And so I realized, you know, we have to look at this cooking piece.
We're not going to fix these problems if people are fleeing the kitchen.
And so that's what got me started.
It was not my intent to write a book with any spiritual dimension at all.
And I was very surprised to find myself in that place because the meal is a kind of communion.
I mean, the meal is a place where we take the world, the body of the world into our bodies where we engage with these other creatures.
And most importantly of all, we're engaged with one another.
I mean, think about what happens at the table.
You know, whether we're eating with friends or with enemies, the kinds of conversations that happen.
I mean, it's the heart of our social life.
I love how you say it. And we're giving it up.
For is there any practice less selfish, any labor less alienated, any time less wasted than preparing something delicious and nourishing for people you love?
So let's begin at the beginning with fire.
I love that. Yeah. Well, that, you know, actually love is at the heart of it.
It really is. Cooking is an expression of love.
And if you think back to your grandparents, how much of their love was expressed to you through what they made for you and that, that gift.
And there's a gift in any act of cooking is a giving.
Now, and I love to that you experienced, you said, you know, you've never been a Zen kind of guy.
But when you're cooking in the kitchen, when you're stirring the pot, just stir the pot.
Right. And you know, we, we spend so much of our time living in the future, worrying and living in the past, worrying about what we might have done wrong.
And the present is inaccessible to us most of the time.
And in the kitchen, you can reclaim the present.
If you really attend to what you're doing.
And for me, it was chopping onions.
I hated chopping onions.
I rushed it. And you know, so many dishes begin with a chopped onion.
It's amazing. And when I learned to say to myself, this little mantra, when chopping onions, just chop onions.
Don't think about anything else.
Let yourself enjoy it. And it's not pleasant always, right?
It's painful. But even chopping onions, you can absorb yourself in.
And the world slips away.
And it's a, it's a great feeling.
But we're rushed. You know, we're so rushed in the kitchen.
And I think that sense of panic about time is part of what's driven us from the kitchen.
So the experience of writing cooked and cooking did what for you.
Well, it made me realize that meals are, you know, sacred occasions.
And that we should take them more seriously.
And you know, what we are as animals or as creatures are people who find meaning.
And especially find meaning in their food.
And we're giving that up.
We're eating at the gas station.
We're, you know, we're eating on the run.
We're eating at the fast food restaurant, you know, by ourselves.
Something like 46% of meals today will be eaten alone in America.
We're giving up the social component.
We're giving up the connection with nature component.
So what I realized is that just what a rich opportunity.
And it's available to all of us.
You know, this is, we all can get back to meals to eating with other people.
And so many good things will follow from that.
I mean, for your health, if you're cooking food, you don't have to count calories.
You don't have to worry of reading ingredient labels because you'll know what you're eating.
And as a matter of course, people who eat home cooked food eat a healthy diet.
There's a lot of research on this.
The reason is you would never put as much salt in your food as a company would.
You would never put as much sugar in that food.
And you would never make those labor intensive, but irresistible foods like french fries every day.
Yes. And so if you're cooking, you're not going to make all those labor intensive foods.
You're not going to make dessert every night.
dessert baking is hard.
You can do that once a week, maybe.
And so there's something built into the nature of cooking that will take care of your health.
What does it take then to become a more conscious eater?
Well, one thing that is not necessary, it is.
It is. It is the omnivore's dilemma.
One thing that is absolutely not necessary, but very helpful is cooking because when you cook, you're forced to remember that you're working with plants and animals and mushrooms, that this is this is stuff of nature.
You're putting your hands on it.
You know, when you handle a cut of meat, you know, a pork shoulder or something, which I love, you realize, you know, this is the muscle of an animal.
And it has a purpose apart from feeding me.
And you realize, I don't want to waste this.
This is, you know, something gave up its life for me.
Yes. And you speak about that so eloquently and cooked about there was a time when the hunters and gatherers, beginning with the hunters and gatherers, where you have a piece of meat, there was an honoring of the sacrifice that that animal had given for you.
And now we just sort of do it mindlessly.
It's, and you know, that was one of the more interesting discoveries I had when I was doing this research, is that in both the ancient Greek tradition and the Old Testament tradition, you didn't eat meat without a priest involved or rabbi.
And in ancient Greece, the priest, the butcher and the cook were the same person.
You see, really? Yeah. And it was a momentous because meat was very special.
It was rare and involved sacrifice.
And so you didn't, you didn't do it lightly.
And in fact, no one else was allowed to mess around with it.
The priest had to be involved.
And now, you know, we've come to a place where meat is very cheap.
Many Americans eat it three times a day without giving a thought to it.
But the system that can produce meat that cheaply is the opposite of sacred.
The way animals are treated.
Yeah, the brutalization of the animals, the brutalization of the slaughterhouse workers.
It's a system that takes any sense of meaning out of eating meat away.
Do you think then when we eat an animal who has been treated thusly or comes from a factory where people are treated thusly, that the energy of that somehow is transmitted to us?
I don't know. It's bad karma.
It has to be bad karma. You can taste the misery of animals in this very scientific sense.
When animals are stressed at slaughter, which many of them are, they release all sorts of stress hormones.
And that is why that meat often doesn't taste very good.
So an animal that's very well taken care of will taste better.
So there is a realistic sense in which you can taste that misery.
Have you thought of not, did you ever consider being a vegetarian?
Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, when I was writing on the worst dilemma, I was really grappling with this issue of, do we have a right to eat animals?
Is it defensible? And I'd read Peter Singer, the great ethicist who wrote a book called Animal Liberation.
And anyone who eats meat needs to grapple with the ideas in this book.
It's a very challenging book.
And he said at some point, while you're thinking through this question for yourself, you should not be eating meat during that period.
So I gave it up for about six weeks.
And I finally came out in favor of eating meat in a very limited way.
And I do think everyone at some point in their life should see what is involved in putting meat on their table.
I even think, and this will sound a little extreme, that you know, in high school, you know, there should be a field trip where people get to kill a chicken if they want, if they want to eat meat.
And see, can you look in the eyes of this chicken and still eat it?
I found I could. And there's no one right answer.
I think it's a determination we all have to come to.
But we're not even asked to go through that thought process anymore.
And that's yeah, if I'm trying to do anything, my work gets to engage people in that process.
You're trying to at least allow people to be conscious of what it is and where it's at stake.
Yeah, what's it's. Yeah, you're saying, look at this slaughter houses, look at how your food gets to your table, whether it's vegetables or meat, animals, fish, and then make a choice about it.
Yeah, exactly. There's no one right answer to these questions.
They're too complicated.
What's your favorite meal, Michael Pollan?
I have a lot of favorite meals.
One of my favorite meals, and it changes time to time, is roast chicken with root vegetables.
And it's a very simple thing to make and I'll often make it for guests.
And if I can get a pasture chicken, one that grew up outside, got to eat bugs and grass, these are the best tasting chickens.
And they're more common.
And essentially, you make a bed of you cut up carrots, parsnips, turnips, anything, root of bag is any kind of root vegetable, and make a bed for the chicken and potatoes.
And set the chicken on there, turn up the crank up the oven to like 400 degrees and roast it for 45 minutes.
It's a one-pot meal. It's really simple.
And then you have leftovers too.
So I love that meal. That's really great.
I mean, I really like fish.
Salmon is another favorite.
Another favorite day is a day when my wife and I are making a dinner party for friends.
I mean, I really like that.
You know, starts in the morning, list of what you need to buy, go into the farmer's market or the supermarket wherever going, and then we spend the afternoon cooking together.
As we sit down and have our evening meal, whether you're sitting with someone or they're just passing through, what do you want us to think about when we sit before the next meal?
Think about the wonder of what it is, whatever you're eating, that, you know, if it's meat that this animal lived and died for you, and think about who grew that broccoli or that salad and the place where it grew, imagine, imagine it growing in the earth.
And just take a moment. I mean, it's a way of saying grace, whether you voice it or not.
Grace is the institutionalization of conscious eating, right?
I mean, and although a lot of us...
Ooh, that's good. Grace is the institutionalized.
It is when you stop and you have a moment to say thank you.
Yeah. We knew all this. We've known all this all the time.
It's the institutionalization of conscious eating.
Yeah. It's stopping to make yourself aware of what this moment is.
This transaction. And, you know, we've had a great forgetting in our culture.
It's very recent. We can get back.
We can remember. And that's what I think that's what the food movement is about and all this conversation about food.
It is about remembering the value, the importance, the power of this relationship with our food.
And I'm very excited to see it catching on.
And I'm full of hope about where we're going with food.
Yeah. Okay. So when you're writing, do you read other people?
You know what I'm saying?
I'm a journalist. I spend a lot of time researching before I get to write.
It can be months. But when I'm actually drafting and I don't want to take in any new information, I read a novel.
And one of the reasons I read them is that the rhythms of pros and general novelists are better writers than nonfiction writers in general.
I mean, I think that they're exceptions on both sides.
Definitely exceptions on both sides.
But you need kind of good rhythms in your head to write well.
Writing is about music.
It really is. And finding the music of a sentence, the rhythms of it, the different.
If you read two sentences and one, you would just kind of feel as beautiful.
It's because the rhythms of it conform to the rhythms of the breath and the body.
And you don't always get it right.
But so I prime my mind with good fiction.
And I, you know, that's where I find the great story.
Next I watch Vigor Cook and Oyster, a process that involve choosing a single perfect ember and placing it beneath the plump dove gray o'hoid for the pair of boresps just so.
Yeah, it is rhythmic. It is rhythmic.
I never heard that before and I've interviewed hundreds of them.
Never ever heard it about music.
Oh, it's all about music.
Proves is all about music.
Just like poetry. That's why it feels that way.
And that's why you know the good stuff.
That's why when you're reading a novel or reading a poem.
You're carried along. You're carried along.
That's why. And you can tell too.
I mean, we don't do this nearly often enough, but we should all be reading a loud.
Oh, that's exact. That's what happened.
The last novel actually that I chose for Book Club Ruby.
So, I mean, at some of the sentences were so beautiful.
I had to read them out loud.
That's how I teach my students.
I teach writing. And whenever someone's having a trouble and their work is clunky or the sentences are too long, I make them read it aloud.
That's great. That's great to know that.
At least to be able to articulate.
Oh, that's what it is. Well, you know it.
I mean, I'm sure you know it.
And the way you pick books, it's reflected.
A lot of this goes on below, below the level consciousness.
But it's there. Yes. Yes.
I remember calling Toni Morrison and telling her about having to read things over and read about her music in her process.
I'm amazing. It's amazing, isn't it?
Yeah, she's got it. She's got it.
Now, you and I both love trees.
What is planning a tree or tending a garden really say about a person?
Well, planning a tree is is an incredibly optimistic act.
It's a statement about the future that you're looking ahead.
I mean, so few of us do anything beyond, you know, in business the next quarter in lives, you know, getting through our day or week to plant a tree is an act of faith in the future.
And it has always been thus.
And we don't plant nearly enough trees.
I remember being in France a few years ago.
And I was in a garden shop and I always look for seeds when I go to other countries.
Really? Yeah. They're interesting plants that we don't have.
And yes, you are allowed to bring seeds.
I was going to say, can you bring them back?
You can't. You can bring seeds back.
Okay. Just not fruits and vegetables.
Okay. And there in this store were seeds for trees.
Seeds. Seeds for a beach tree.
Seeds for a, you know, a really a redwood.
Yeah, I was like, wow. Now there is an act of faith.
It's a plant of seed, a tree from a seed.
I heard that you once built a little hut in the woods near your house.
Built. Yeah. I still have it.
Yeah. So it's a place today dream and right and just get away from it all.
And it's a place means the world to me.
Yeah. And so how important do you think I have that over there?
I call it my tea house over there.
Little house over there.
How important do you think is it to have a place of contemplation if you can?
I mean, most people don't have hut in the woods.
Yeah. Tea houses, but you can just a space.
But people have something like that.
You know, you can have that in a house with other people.
I mean, you can have that in a little patch of your yard where you go.
I remember when I was a little kid, we lived in a tract house on Long Island and there was this line of shrubs for Scythia or something.
And then there was a little space after that line of shrubs where no one could see me and I could go and hang out and in fact planted my first crop.
I spit out a watermelon seed and dug it in and it actually grew.
I was four years old and that was my hut.
And so kids can make a hut in the you know in the arch of a shrub.
I think we all need that place.
It becomes a physical expression of solitude.
What's a perfect day for you?
How do you spend your days?
Well, a perfect day is outdoors for me.
A day, you know, where I'm hiking.
That would be good. With a really good picnic, you know, something I've made.
And my wife and I have a ritual on our birthdays.
Whatever day of the week is whatever else going on.
We'll take it off and do just that and we'll go up and everything.
A hike in a picnic? A hike in a picnic.
Okay. And what's in your picnic basket?
Well, it's often leftovers.
Yeah. Yeah. What we had.
But I mean, I'd be very happy with like bread and cheese.
You know, really good baguette or loaf of bread.
I bake. As you just describe that, I think that I'm going to do that.
Maybe I'll do that with steadmin or the dogs.
I go over the bags. Dogs would be very happy with that.
Dogs would be very happy with.
But whole grain bread with a great cheese.
I don't know about the stinky stinky ones, but a great cheese and some why I consider that one of the greatest feasts.
Me too. Me too. And that's all I need to be happy.
What do you think is the world's greatest wound?
I guess I'd have to say human cruelty.
I would, I guess I would agree with that.
Yeah. I don't think it's controversial.
I don't think you'll get no debate from me.
And what do we have to do to heal that?
How do we start to heal that?
I think empathy. I mean, cruelty is based on a failure of empathy.
The inability to see things from the perspective of the person you're being cruel to.
And we put up a lot of screens.
You know, some are racial, some are ethnic, some are gendered that allow us to be cruel to people because we dehumanize them.
So that's why art is so important.
Art exercises are empathetic faculties.
So yeah, speaking of racial, what do you think is the root of racism or prejudice?
I think greed. I mean, I think when you look at the history of it, that's a very important part of it that you needed to cultivate racism in order to justify slavery.
And I think we see that sexism too is, you know, is often, you know, it's about one one type of person exerting power over another.
But I really think greed is at the heart of it.
So we live in this polar world, darkness and light.
How do you, first of all, how do you stay in the light?
Curiosity. You know, I'm a journalist and I am motivated by questions.
I'm more interested in questions than answers.
I mean, answers are great when you find them, but it's questions that drive you forward.
And a lot of us don't, I think you can cultivate your sense of curiosity by whenever you're in a situation, think about what, what don't you know?
What are the mysteries right in front of you and follow them?
So for me, light is knowledge.
You know, light is the knowledge that you come from learning about things.
What is the quality you admire most in other human beings?
Empathy, radical empathy.
Radical. Radical. I meet people who can really put themselves in the shoes of another.
And because it takes work, there's a lot working against empathy.
We have our own problems.
We have so many screens between us and other people.
Are egos. Are egos? I mean, yeah, the self.
I mean, just transcending the self is such a hard and big job.
And you need to do that in order to be a civilized human being.
And many of us are not civilized.
And it goes back to empathy.
So when I meet someone who has that quality, whether they're an activist or a novelist or a filmmaker who really can see the world from very different parishes, I have a great admiration for that.
Why do you think we're all here?
What's the purpose of this human experience?
I don't know that it has a purpose.
It's up to us to find a purpose.
We're not given a purpose.
We make meaning. And that's a huge responsibility.
We have to figure out our purpose.
I think it's preserving this world for people in the future.
I think that's really important and other species.
And we're risking all that right now.
So getting people to rethink their relationship to the natural world.
I mean, what a weird term that is.
We have a relationship to the natural world.
Where does that put us? We're in the natural world, but we also stand outside it.
And so resolving those questions, how to behave in nature.
That drives all my work in the end.
I mean, I think every writer, if you scratch deeply enough, you will find that they have a set of final questions that all their work goes to.
And for some people, it's power, it can be money, it can be love, it can be any number of big topics.
My final questions are all about nature.
Finish the sentence. I believe.
I believe in the possibility of change.
I'm not a discouraged person.
I look at some pretty awful things in my work, whether it's the way we abuse farm workers or our animals or other people.
And I study the environmental prospects before us.
But whether it's a matter of knowledge or temperament, I'm very hopeful.
I've seen change happen in our lifetimes.
That suggests that we're not powerless to change direction.
So that's what gets me up out of bed every morning, is that we're going in the right direction.
Do you have a favorite quote?
Well, there's a quote at the end of food rules that I really like.
This is my kind of distillation of food wisdom.
After I've given you all these rules for eating, don't eat anything, don't buy cereals that change the color of the milk, stuff like that.
There's a line at the end and said, all things in moderation, this is from Oscar Wilde, all things in moderation, including moderation.
Sometimes you have to cut loose.
I love that. I mean, breaking the rules is part of having rules.
That's the best. I'll end there.
That's perfect. Hey there podcast listeners.
I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in addition to Super Soul Conversations.
It's called Oprah's Masterclass.
The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures and athletes in their own words.
Listen as Jay-Z Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O'Neal, Riva McIntyre, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges.
I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class.
Oprah's Masterclass podcast will be available July 19th on Apple Podcasts.
Subscribe now and listen free.
Go to ApplePodcast.com slash Oprah's Masterclass.
