I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Last time, Maya Angelou and I reminisced about some of the most meaningful moments of her extraordinary journey.
She also spoke candidly and lovingly about her mother, Vivian Baxter, a charismatic, fierce dynamo of a woman.
Their deep spiritual connection is the catalyst for Maya's latest book.
It's called Mom and Me and Mom.
At 85, Maya Angelou is now a great-grandmother and is still taking the world by storm.
In addition to her writing and full schedule of speaking engagements, She remains ever relevant, hip and up to date with her active and enlightening presence on Twitter.
I'm one of legions of readers who've looked to Maya Angelou for comforting words, for courage.
We soak up her wisdom.
We marvel at her stamina and bask in the pure, contagious joy she takes in living.
Now, as we sit here, you're 85.
Yes, ma'am.
Yes, as we're 85.
What can you say about the 80s?
Oh my goodness.
Do it if you can.
Do it if you can.
If you have a choice, choose the 80s.
Oh my goodness.
I mean it.
If you've been caring for yourself, you know, moderation in all things.
Yes.
And even moderation in moderation.
Don't get too much moderation.
That's a tweet.
Don't even get too much moderation.
Moderation and moderation.
That's right.
Yes.
But when you get into your 80s and you find that you're still looking kind of all right and people still say hello hello, hello.
You think, hmm, I'm glad I got this far.
Yes.
Tell me what you've learned yourself about the aging process.
You know, because I think I learned this from you and what a wonderful mentor you have been for me for aging with grace and appreciation and heart and just embracing it.
And I see so many women around me who, even as early as their 40s, and some even in their 30s, they're trying to, you know, Botox themselves and, you know, change themselves and fighting it, just fighting it, fighting it all the way.
And I always look at it as, just as you were saying, my God, whatever age...
I think about the people who didn't make it.
I know.
As I sit here at 59, I think about all the people who didn't make it to 59.
And so were you ever anxious about it?
Were you ever, oh, I can't believe I'm turning 40.
I can't believe I'm 50.
I can't remember ever being anxious about it. even when I was very young.
I mean, I've always wanted to reach that other age, as far as I can remember.
I thought that if I could live to be 20, it was gonna be really wonderful.
And then 25.
And then 30?
My goodness, it was a knockout.
Every age, I've been grateful.
I talked to you about this years ago.
Yes.
His being grateful.
Yes.
Grateful, just constantly.
Get up in the morning.
Thank you, Lord.
Yes.
Thank you for this day.
Thank you for the light coming through that window.
Thank you.
Thank you that I'm breathing Thank you.
Thank you for everything.
Thank you for the phone call that told me that I have the job.
Thank you even for the phone call that told me I'm not wanted anymore.
Thank you because I know you have something better for me lined up.
Thank you.
Yeah, one of my life seminal moments, I had the farm in Indiana.
You remember the farm?
Yes, I do, and i was in the bathroom because there are people at the house and i closed the door and i was sitting on the toilet seat and on the bathroom phone calling you and i was crying hysterically about something, i don't remember it was, and you said I was calling for your open empathetic, loving embrace and you said stop it.
That's right.
Stop it right now.
I want you to say thank you.
And I was saying, but you didn't hear me.
You didn't hear what I said.
And you said, no, I want to say it.
I want to hear you say it.
And I went, thank you.
What am I saying thank you for?
And you said, because you know God has put a rainbow in the clouds for you.
That's it.
Yeah.
That's it.
That was life changing for me.
Yes, darling.
Yes, darling.
So when whatever it is hits.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Because I know something better is on the road for me.
So you fired me, good on you.
And very good on me.
Because what I'm going to get, darling, you would long for.
Darling.
Yes, darling.
So where did you get that?
Where did you know that?
From a long way.
From my grandmother, my father's mother, who raised me.
And from Vivian Baxter.
Maya describes her mother Vivian, as a dynamic woman, a spitfire with a larger-than-life presence, but she was someone Maya didn't really get to know until her teens.
Unable to raise two young children on her own, Vivian Baxter had sent Maya and her brother Bailey, to live with their grandmother in rural Arkansas.
When Maya turned 13, she rejoined her mother in San Francisco.
And while it took some time for them to get to know each other, it was obvious there was a lot of love between Maya and the woman she called Lady.
Vivian Baxter, she loved me.
Yes.
And encouraged me to develop courage. in Stockton, California, where she lived and died.
Yes.
There's a park named for her, because she was that kind to everybody whites blacks, Spanish speaking, Native American, Asian.
She was that kind.
And so the newest park in Stockton, California is called Lady Baxter.
I love that.
I love that.
And so that's on one end of town.
And a library on the other end of town is the Maya Angelou.
It's amazing because the library was named for me because of Vivian Baxter.
Your mother paved that way.
That's right.
She paved that way, which we were talking about last week.
That's right.
Every time I dare to do a good thing, I'm doing it in the name of my mother.
You say that this book has been written to examine some of the ways that love heals and helps a person to climb to impossible heights and rise from immeasurable deaths.
It's true.
Yes.
It's true.
Love does that.
Love does that.
Love liberates.
And love from a parent.
And I mean from a mother or a father.
Love, not sentimentality, not mush, but true love.
Love that gives you enough courage that you can say to somebody, don't do that, baby.
And the person will know you're not preaching, you're teaching.
Yes, yes.
Maya Angelou developed an even deeper connection to her mother when she became pregnant at 16.
She calls the birth of her only child, her son Guy, the greatest blessing of her life.
When Maya told Vivian Baxter she was gonna have a baby, her mother didn't get angry.
Instead, she welcomed the baby boy into their lives, even guiding the young mother as she struck out on her own.
When Guy was only two months old, you moved out of the house.
And I love the story about what your mother said to you as you were leaving.
She says, all right, you go.
But remember this.
When you cross my doorstep, you have already been raised with what you've learned from your grandmother in Arkansas and what you've learned from me.
You know the difference between right and wrong.
Do right and don't let anybody raise you from the way you've been raised.
Know you will always have to make adjustments in love relationships, in friends, in society, in work.
But don't let anybody change your mind.
And then remember this.
You can always come home.
She did.
She did.
And whenever I'd go home, the world would throw me flat on my face.
With this little baby I'm trying to raise and work and sing songs and dance.
And I would go home to Vivian Baxter.
She would act as if the best thing that has ever happened.
She'd call her friends.
Girl, you can't believe it.
The baby is home.
I'm going to cook this for her.
She loves Spanish rice.
I'm going to cook that.
Listen, don't try to come over.
I'm going to have her to myself for at least three or four hours.
Then you can come over.
She never, ever made me feel that I had done the wrong thing.
I know.
And even at 16, when you became pregnant, she did not shame you.
She said, we're going to have this beautiful baby.
That's right.
She asked me, she said, do you know who the father is?
I said, yes.
I only had sex with him one time, but then he's the only one.
She said, all right.
Do you love him?
I said, no.
She asked me, does he love you?
I said, no.
She said, we're not going to ruin three lives.
We're going to have a beautiful baby.
Wow.
Yes, she did.
Wow.
And she loved my son.
Yes.
She was a knockout, Vivian Baxter.
She was a knockout.
Tell me this.
You've been my greatest teacher.
Who's been your greatest teachers?
Probably my grandmother and my mother.
Really?
Mm-hmm.
Your greatest teachers.
My greatest teachers.
I watched Grandmother Henderson and I watched Vivian Baxter.
Vivian Baxter with this incredible anger whenever anybody tried to do her down.
This same woman was so kind.
I never in my life, she was very pretty.
She never laughed at anybody.
Ever.
I liked that in her.
Because she had everything.
She had money.
She had beauty and health.
And she never laughed at anybody.
And you didn't think of yourself as a pretty girl.
Oh, no, I wasn't a pretty girl.
There were pretty girls who had long hair and fair skin and that.
And I was so tall.
I was six foot 15.
So how did you learn to love yourself at that time?
Well, Bailey loved me.
My grandmother loved me and my mother loved me.
Because another book that you wrote that's a poem, Nobody Makes It Alone.
Nobody but nobody makes it out here alone.
Nobody makes it alone.
And everybody needs somebody.
And that's how love heals.
The love of the family, the love of one person can heal.
So it heals the scars left. of wounds left by a larger society, a massive, powerful society.
You say words are things and that they're so powerful.
So what words do you turn to for comfort?
Love.
And again see, I don't mean.
I think love is that condition in the human spirit so profound that it allows us to forgive.
And it may be the energy which keeps the stars in the firmament.
Yes.
I'm not sure.
It may be the energy which keeps the blood running smoothly through our veins.
I'm not sure.
But it's something beyond the explanation.
It can be used for anything you can't explain.
Any good thing you can't explain.
Absolutely.
Yes, ma'am.
Where do you go for solace, for comfort?
Are there books that you read?
When Maya Angelou needs comforting, what do you use?
I'm a student of unity.
And there's a book called... The Unity Church?
Unity Church.
I took a course in Unity about two years ago, online.
Not to become a member, a minister, but just to understand more deeply.
There's a book called Lessons in Truth.
Wow.
And in the book, there's a line which is, God loves me.
And when I came to read it to my then mentor, Frederick Wilkerson the late Frederick Wilkerson I read God loves me.
And he said, read it again.
And I said, God loves me.
He said, read it again.
Read it again.
And finally I said, God loves me.
It still humbles me.
That this force which made leaves and fleas and stars and rivers and you loves me.
Me, Maya Angelou.
It's amazing.
I can do anything and do it well.
Any good thing, I can do it.
That's why I am who I am.
Yes.
Because God loves me and I'm amazed at it and grateful for it.
Do you feel carried by the ancestors as I do?
Do you feel carried by them?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
When you said, when we talked last week about Your crown has been paid for.
Put it on your head and wear it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Do you feel... Do you feel...
Absolutely.
Your grandmother and her mother before her.
Yes, and great-grandmother.
Great-grandmother.
Who had been born a slave.
Do you feel that you're carried by that?
Absolutely.
And I'm responsible to them.
So wherever I am, I stand on the stage in front of 10,000 people.
My great-grandmother stands there with me.
Mm-hmm.
That's the line in the poem Grandmothers that you wrote, one of my favorites.
I come as one, but I stand as 10,000.
Oh my gosh, have I used that line for myself internally. on many occasions.
Because that's who you are.
I recited that to myself many times.
I come as one, but I stand as 10,000.
That's it, you girl.
The force of that.
That's it.
Yes, ma'am.
To know that none of us are alone.
No, ever.
Because you've been paid for.
Already.
Thank the Lord.
In 2000, when you were 72, I interviewed you for the magazine and I asked you if you considered yourself wise, and at the time you answered well, I'm in root.
That's true.
And how would you answer that now?
I'm in root.
You're still in root.
I'm further along than I was.
But I'm still in root.
I don't know when I know enough.
I know I know a lot, and I'm grateful for that.
I know enough to try to live what I know.
Now that's a lot.
Well, that's a lot.
But I still don't have it all.
What do you think that you, Maya Angelou, everybody who quotes you and I quote you and then they quote me to you and all, what do you think is the best piece of advice you've given?
Well, hmm.
Well, I'm thinking that the best advice I've ever given, I hope, was that which I gave to my son when he was growing up.
He said, I don't have any friends.
How can I get some friends?
And although I was very young, I told him two things.
I told him, in order to get a friend, you have to be a friend, be ready to be a friend.
And also I told him, there's a place in you that you must keep inviolate.
You must keep it pristine, clean, so that nobody has the right to curse you or treat you badly.
Nobody, no mother, father, no wife, no husband, nobody.
Because that may be the place you go to when you meet God.
You have to have a place that you say, stop it.
Back up.
Not who you want.
You must not know.
No.
Absolutely.
And that's one I told you 25 years ago.
Yes.
Say no when it's no.
Yeah.
Say so.
Back it up.
Because that place has to remain clean and clear.
And that has to be a place within yourself.
Yes, ma'am.
That is the best advice.
I know everybody who's watching is going to say when people show you who they are, believe them.
That's also very good.
It is good now.
Yeah.
But nothing tops having the place inside yourself.
That's right.
That nobody else has a right to invade.
No.
Yes.
And when the person comes with rude language to you or invasive language to you, you have to be able to say back up.
Not mean you don't.
Don't you know I'm a child of God?
What is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten?
So many good things.
I know.
Yeah.
I guess the greatest advice is to forgive.
I don't anoint it with anything.
I just forgive it.
But don't we forgive?
I've tried to let people know on the show, as you have taught me over the years, that when you forgive somebody it doesn't mean you want to sit down and invite them to your table.
Oh, no.
No, no, no, no, no.
Indeed not.
I just mean I'm finished with you.
You done.
Go away.
Yes.
Yes, you go away.
Now, I don't say go away and harm somebody else, but I do have to protect myself.
I look like a ninny if I ask somebody else to protect me, and I'm not willing to protect myself.
Yeah, that's one of the great lessons that you've taught me too.
You gotta be willing to take care of this first.
Yes ma'am.
Then you have enough to give to other people.
Yes ma'am.
What is your definition of God?
Ooh.
Hmm.
All.
If I was asked, say it in your definition of God in one word, it would be all.
A-L-L.
I love that.
There is no place that God is not.
No place.
In the prison.
In the choir loft.
On my knees, God is right there.
God is all.
Are there many ways to get to him?
I think so.
As many ways as there are.
Absolutely.
Like the highways that go to Rome.
But all roads lead to God.
Yes.
What do you believe happens when you die?
Oh, I go back to all.
That's all.
You go back to all?
Yes.
I'm in all right now, I just go back to all.
Go back to all.
Yeah, it's just another way of being in all.
Yes, and it's so interesting because you're the first person that said to me, in a way, I really got that there are as many levels.
You said everybody thinks that there's just one way.
There's not just one gate.
There's as many gates as there are people.
There's many gates and there are people.
And then Dr. Eben Alexander's book and movie.
Proof of Heaven.
He talks about all of the different multiple levels.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I love that book, by the way.
Wow.
And then to find and to see him on Super Soul just knocked my socks off.
Amazing.
What do you call the soul?
What is it?
What is the soul?
The soul is a spirit which longs for all.
And that spirit then uses itself to create the blues and gospel music and pop music and hip hop.
It's that spirit that longs, that says, let me say something which will help me, lead me to all.
Whether the poetry is a poetry of Nikki Giovanni, Sonia Sanchez or William Shakespeare or Maya Angelou.
Eugene Redmond, the poetry, I write it so I can get closer to all.
Let me tell so much truth, not facts, because facts can obscure the truth.
You tell so many facts, the places where the people who times when, the reasons why blah blah, blah.
Never getting to the truth.
So I want to tell the truth in my work.
Right.
And it will help me, lead me closer to all.
And is.
Do you see?
I remember Rainn Wilson was on Super Soul Sunday and he said that Art is another form of prayer.
Of course.
Yeah, do you see that too?
Exactly.
Yes.
And that's why you try your best to say the right thing, the true thing, the good thing.
Because you're an artist and you're using God itself to help you to get to God.
Oh, yes.
How do you define spirituality versus religion?
Religion is like a map.
You know, it can help you to see how to get where you want to go.
All it does is show you how to get there.
It's only a map.
Yeah.
And spirituality for you means?
Oh, surrender.
I surrender all to all.
What does prayer mean to you?
Oh, I know you're a praying woman.
I'm a praying woman.
You're a praying woman.
Yes, I am.
Yeah.
So when you say to me there have been times you've said to me I'm praying for you and I'm praying with you.
I know I'm going to be all right.
I know.
It changes things.
And you're connected.
Yes, I am.
And I thank God for that.
I know that when I pray...
Something wonderful happens, not just to the person, a person for whom I'm praying, but also something wonderful happens to me.
I'm grateful that I'm heard.
Because you know all hears it all.
That's it.
Where do you feel most at home or at peace with yourself?
With myself, in myself, always, when I'm in myself.
That is to say, I'm at peace with you.
I'm at peace with 40,000 cameras zooming around, that's fine.
I'm at peace in my bus.
I'm at peace standing in front of an audience as I did a couple of weeks ago for 10,000 people.
I'm at peace.
Once I know I'm centered in God, I live and move and have my being, I'm all right, Jack.
I'm all right.
Now, when I lose it, as you do lose it from time to time, it is human, I think.
It's unfortunate, but there we are.
So faith trembles and skids away.
And so for that moment, I'm dangerous and I'm in danger.
Yes.
But as soon as I make the statement, in God I live and move and have my being, I'm fine.
I thank you.
I'm fine.
And I use that.
I use that to calm myself.
That is my living mantra for myself.
That's right.
For in all difficult situations.
Yes, ma'am.
And in also good ones I use in God.
Because when you use it in good times, the all is pleased because it knows that you know that your good times are because of it.
Yes, that's right.
So you're just saying thank you.
Thank you.
And what do you know for sure, Maya Angelou?
I know for sure that love saves me and that it is here to save us all.
I know it's a sense.
It's more close to us than air, more loud to us than hearing.
I know it.
I know that we can sit in it.
Yes, love, honey.
And you know by that I don't mean much or any, I don't mean romance.
Or sentimentality.
No, I do not.
No, ma'am.
I mean something is so, it can raise the dead. can raise the dead?
Yes, ma'am.
It can make a mountain move.
I know it.
I haven't done it, but I know it as surely as I'm sitting here.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, that's what you've given to me always.
Thank you, my darling.
I love you and you know it.
Thank you.
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Thank you for listening.
