I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Malala Yousafzai was a young Pakistani girl not afraid to speak her truth.
She was a straight-A student growing up in her beloved Swat Valley of Pakistan.
Her father, Ziauddin, ran a school.
Her mother, Torpakai, looked after Malala and her two younger brothers.
Malala describes her childhood as peaceful and happy, until the Taliban came, when she was 11 years old.
Within two years, people were beaten and murdered in the public squares, televisions were set on fire and schools were destroyed.
When the Taliban banned girls from getting an education, Malala bravely spoke out.
Then, on the afternoon of October 9 2012, two masked gunmen stopped Malala's school bus and shot her point-blank in the head.
Two of her friends were also shot in that attack.
Both of them also survived.
Malala, just 15 years old, was rushed to the hospital and then flown to Birmingham England, for further treatment.
In what doctors called a miracle, Malala not only survived, but suffered very little permanent damage.
Malala embodies the strength, the power, and courage of the human spirit.
Is there a part of you now that believes that you are, first of all, more connected to humanity, in a way that you weren't before the attack, but that so much of your life belongs to the world?
Do you feel that What's, I think, unfortunate or fortunate?
I don't know how to explain it, but I have gone through these experiences of being deprived of education and seeing terrorism, seeing schools being blown up.
So when you see that situation, it helps you to know about other people and how other people feel when they go through the same circumstances in their life, when they suffer through the same difficulties in their life.
So now seeing around the world that children cannot get education and girls are facing so many difficulties in their life and they're deprived of independence and being themselves, it just reminds me of my past.
And then I think that what I have went through in my past, I should help people not to go through the same situation of terrorism.
So when you were giving your Nobel Peace Prize speech at 17?
First of all, how do you even begin to write a Nobel Peace Prize speech?
How did you begin to frame that, what you wanted to say to the world?
Well, just like a week or two before the speech, I had my exams.
So I was totally focused on exams.
I couldn't give five minutes to the speech.
And I said, I need to do well in my exams.
So I was just totally focused on the world.
For high school.
Yes.
Still.
But you're in high school.
Yes.
And you're talking about your exams.
You're the only Nobel Peace Prize winner who had to also focus on their exams.
But then, so I really wanted this speech to be the voice of girls, to be the voice of children.
And it was wonderful because we invited five girls from Nigeria, Syria and three girls from Pakistan, including the two girls who were attacked.
And all these girls yes, they had a story in representing girls within Nigeria who are abducted by Boko Haram, or girls in Pakistan who suffer from sexual violence, or Syrian girls who are now refugees.
So they had a story and that made my day very special to feel that I was not just one girl, but I was many.
I was speaking on behalf of those millions of girls who are deprived of education.
And that really made the award more precious to me.
And it felt like it was, I was receiving it for the children.
It's so interesting when extraordinary things happen in our lives.
They often begin with ordinary days.
You know, was the state of SWAT in such a way that you feared going out because there had already been all of these announcements by the Taliban that girls were not supposed to go to school and girls were not supposed to go to the marketplace, but yet you were still doing it.
Were you afraid in doing it?
Well, that was a very difficult time.
More than 400 schools were destroyed and women were not allowed to go to markets, and girls' education was banned completely.
And in that situation for me, I was not really afraid of speaking out, but I was afraid to live in that situation.
And I did not want to live in a situation where I had no freedom, where I did not have the right to be who I wanted.
And like thinking that I'm stopped from going to school.
And the next thought that would come to my mind was am I going to be just like the other women in my community, getting married at a very early age 13, 14 and then having children and then grandchildren and that's it?
That would be my life.
I wouldn't be myself.
You thought, if I don't get an education, I'm going to end up like all these other women.
And this was what I feared the most.
Yes.
Rather than fearing that if I speak out, I would be targeted.
Right.
So you were willing to be targeted, even knowing that speaking out, you could lose your life.
But you didn't think it was possible because at that point the Taliban had never harmed children, right?
Yes, you're right.
And they, like, people call them the most brutal people, terrorists.
And they have done things which shock people.
But then no one could imagine targeting children.
Yes. they have destroyed school, but they never killed a child, targeted a child who spoke out.
And so it was very unusual, very unusual.
And I always used to think about my father, because we both used to speak together about this campaign of education.
And I would speak on behalf of girls and he would speak for schools, for women's rights, for peace and for girls' rights.
So I was really worried about my father that he might be targeted, used to think what should I do if someone comes to our house?
And my mother had put a ladder at the back of the house.
So if someone comes, we would tell our father just to go away quickly at the back.
And my mother even decided to put a knife under her pillow.
But then she said, it's too violent.
She wouldn't do that.
And I always used to think that, how can I protect my father?
I thought it was interesting how you're describing you're on the bus and you're sitting there with your friends.
Someone stops the bus.
They come onto the bus.
You don't immediately think that they're there for you.
Do you remember the feeling of being shot?
Don't remember that incident.
You don't remember it.
I remember just that last moment when i was talking to my friend and thinking about the next day.
We had exams at that time and i my exam went very well on that day and i was thinking of the next day exam, so i was quite happy that moment.
And then suddenly waking up in birmingham in a hospital seeing doctors and nurses and had no idea what had happened in between.
So when the terrorist enters the bus and says who is Malala or where is Malala, did you think what?
I do not remember, but my friend says, my best friend Muneeba, she says that when the person came and he said who is Malala?
Some of the girls looked at you because they had no idea what was going to happen next.
And I asked her like, what did I do?
How did I react?
Was I scared?
And she said you said nothing, but you were holding my hand so tightly that I could feel pain on my hand.
And then she said, as he fired bullets, you fell down into my lap and you started bleeding.
And then they fired two, three more bullets.
And then my other two friends were hit as well.
And when you awakened from the coma, I heard that the first thing that you asked was where's your father?
Yes, because I thought he got attacked.
And I was very worried about him.
And I first thanked God that I was alive and I was surviving.
It's a very difficult moment when you want to wake up and when you want to prove that you are surviving, you are not dead.
And once I woke up, I said, yes, I am alive and I'm existing and I haven't gone from this world yet.
And then I asked, where's my father?
And it was a very difficult time because I could not speak because there was a tube in my neck.
And I really wanted to ask many, many questions.
And I would try to write them to ask the doctors.
But then 10 days later, when I saw my family, that was the first time that I cried.
It was a very emotional moment to see my family again.
In what way did your near death and the world's outcry, prayers, candles lit around the world.
In what way did that experience deepen the meaning of your life?
So when I was in the hospital, I had no idea that People outside had so much support for me and they were praying for me.
And the cards and the letters that I had received, I had no idea.
But as the doctors and the hospital staff, they would bring cards to the hospital, to my room, every day.
It just totally surprised me.
Before I believed in prayers, but then it strengthened my belief in prayers that the prayers of people are so powerful that it can give you life, and that God listens to them, and He just listens to their voices.
I know you believe there are two reasons your story is unique, prayer and love.
Did you feel, you could feel the love and outpouring from people, could you not?
I think there was nothing greater than the love and the prayer of people.
And it's so special that you can't buy it.
You can't buy it.
No.
It's a gift.
It's a gift of God.
You have been called.
You know now, wherever you go, people say and even as we introduce you here, we'll say she is the bravest girl in the world.
Now meet the bravest girl in the world.
What does your heart say when you hear those words?
Um, People think I did a brave thing, that I spoke out for education and then, even after I was attacked, I spoke out again.
So it's defined as bravery.
For me, bravery is when you speak up and speak out for what is right.
And it's our responsibility.
It's not that we do something, give something extra and do a favor to our community.
I think it's our duty and we should do it and we must do it.
And however you define it, it's our duty to speak out for what is right.
Where do you think you started to embody that?
I mean, obviously we see in the wonderful film He Named Me Malala that from a little toddler You're crawling around in the classrooms and you're listening to your father teach.
So obviously, the way you were raised had a lot to do with how you felt about yourself and the strength that you hold for yourself as a young girl and a growing woman.
But where does that come from?
Because the thing that you say at the end of the movie is so powerful.
I'm not going to give that away.
But when you say you worked to become this girl Yes, but who really inspired me was my father and my mother, of course.
And when I would listen to my father speaking out for education and speaking out for women's rights, it just really inspired me.
But then sometimes we just think that the person who would bring the change would be very special.
And he would be like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.
And they're very special people.
They can't be among us.
And we don't realize that they are just normal people like us.
Like Malala.
Well, I haven't done that much yet.
And it's my dream to be like them and the change they have brought in society, that I can do the same.
And it's like the beginning of the journey, but it's really to believe that they're just like you and it begins from a small step.
And when you, it's helping the community.
If you have truly that ambition once you started, then if you have strong commitment, then you can do it.
Malala's journey is featured in a documentary by Oscar-winning filmmaker Davis Guggenheim called.
He Named Me Malala.
She's also written a best-selling memoir called I Am Malala.
I love where you say, I know God stopped me from going to the grave.
It feels like this life is a second life.
People prayed to God to spare me, and I was spared for a reason, to use my life for helping people.
Do you believe that?
Yes, I strongly believe that.
I believe that this life is purely for a purpose and that is helping people, that is doing something for the world and doing something for the betterment of the society and for girls.
And this is a second life.
This is a new life.
You say, when people talk about the way I was shot and what happened, I think it's the story of Malala, a girl shot by the Taliban.
I don't feel it's a story about me at all.
Does it really feel kind of separate from you sometimes?
I think one reason for this is that I don't remember the incident.
So it does not make me feel like I was the girl who was shot.
She was just Malala, the girl who was shot by the Taliban.
She has got this definition.
She's now someone else for me.
For me.
I am this person with a heart which strongly believes that doing something for your people is important and you should do as much as you can.
You say that you've never been angry at the men who shot you.
Never.
Never.
Not a moment?
Not an atom?
Well, I think that in order to go forward, it's important that you have love in your heart.
And I want to have love in my heart.
I don't want to have any hate, any bad feelings in my heart.
And that's what makes me more happy.
So you never had a why me moment?
No.
You never had a why did this have to happen to me?
No, because I believe that whatever happened, bad or good, it's really important to focus on future and learn from your past.
But in order to go forward, you have to focus on your future.
And if, every day for the last three years, if I would have cried that why it was me, why it was me, nothing would have been done.
But instead of saying that, I said okay, Even though I was shot.
But I'm not just the only girl who becomes victim of discrimination in society, or being attacked in terrorism or getting deprived of education.
There are millions of girls.
And the best way to fight against terrorism is to educate girls, is to empower them, is to raise their voices.
And in those last three years I made to Jordan to speak out for Syrian refugees, and to Lebanon and Nigeria.
And this is like the best revenge you can ever take.
Tell me how you celebrated your 18th birthday.
So I went to Lebanon in Jordan, and we opened a school.
And that is like the wonderful and the great thing you can ever do.
And you see girls in their school uniforms, sitting there with books, sitting in the classrooms.
And you can see that what else can you do better than this?
You change the girl's life.
You give her books.
From a school you built, yes.
So that was like the most precious gift I've ever received.
That was the love of those children.
For an 18th birthday.
Pretty cool.
I think it's wonderful.
I was what, I don't know what, I was 50 when I built the school, not 18.
But when you have won the Nobel Peace Prize at 17 and you're building schools around the world and there's the Malala Fund, for which anybody can donate, and that's what you want to do is want to create educational opportunities for 66 million girls who don't have it, throughout the world.
Do you do normal 18-year-old stuff?
Well, I do have lots of friends now.
And we go for shopping and go to restaurants, enjoy time.
And I also like playing cricket and badminton, also fighting with brothers.
Fighting with brothers.
I really enjoy it.
So this is what's interesting, that living your truth nearly cost you your life.
You've said if you're afraid, you can't move forward.
And so is courage something that you think other people can develop or give to themselves.
This belief system that allowed you to stand up for what you believe was the right thing for girls to be able to go to school.
Are other people able to have that?
Well, so there's like this fight between courage and fear.
And sometimes we choose fear because we want to protect ourselves, but we don't realize that by choosing fear we put ourselves in a situation that has really bad impact on us.
So if I would have kept silent in Swat Valley and my father would have kept silent and all of us would have kept silent, then there would not have been that moment when change would have come in our valley.
So it's better to speak out, to have that moment when you say I'm going to do something from my side.
And that needs a bit of courage.
So our courage was stronger than our fear. what really changed our lives.
There was fear.
It wasn't that we just totally were fine with what was going on in our society.
We were afraid.
And that was the fear that to live in that situation, the fear that I would be away from school that really motivated me to have the courage to speak out.
To speak out.
What does it mean to you to be a Muslim woman?
For me, being Muslim means to be peaceful, to be kind, to always think about others and to always think that how the one action you take can affect other people's life.
So you feel a responsibility to embody what you believe to be the characteristics of Islam.
Yes.
And that is peace and love.
Yeah.
You've said that the people who did this to you were not about faith, but they were about power.
And I think that for so many people in the world, that power and that terrorism and that way of looking at life is what they see of Islam.
What do you want to say about what Islam is?
What do you want people to know about Islam?
As far as I know, Islam the word Islam means peace, and it's a religion of brotherhood, humanity and kindness and generosity.
And what I have learned is that you have to be kind to each other, you have to respect each other's religious beliefs and cultural beliefs, and that I don't understand Islam that the terrorists are showing, that is killing people.
And even in your family.
When this happened, I think there was a time where your mother was saying well, they're not Islam, they cannot be.
Yes, and when I was attacked.
So my mother was worried about me, but she also thought about the mother of the person who shot me, because she thought that how would that mother feel whose son just shot three girls in a school van.
It's like to be the mother of those people who shoot others.
Do you fear the Taliban still?
No, no.
Why should I?
When you go through the situation that you are attacked and you are nearly killed and after that you survive and you are alive and you're still speaking out, then there's nothing else you should be afraid of.
Like what else can they do?
They can only kill me and it didn't work, so it means nothing else can work.
And this moment is still alive.
This, this moment that girls deserve education, this campaign, this voice, it's still alive and even if they do kill you, they can't stop the movement.
And this is what i want to survive not me, but the moment and this.
Has this experience made you less afraid of death?
Yes, definitely.
Before the attack, I used to think that, how would it feel if you are attacked?
And I had these thoughts coming again and again.
And I sometimes used to think that I would be attacked, but not really expecting, but these thoughts were coming to my mind.
And after I was attacked, as I said in my UN speech, that They changed nothing in my life except that weakness, fear and hopelessness died and strength, power and courage was born.
I feel stronger than before.
Your father and mother raised some kind of woman child.
I want to meet your father.
I've met him, so I want everybody else to meet your father.
He's an extraordinary man.
I mean, what do you want to say about him before he's here?
Because it's hard, when you're sitting next to the person, to say all the things you really feel sometimes.
I could weep thinking about your father.
Because obviously I know that there is nature.
You're born a certain way.
And then there's nurturing and support.
But I marvel at the kind of man your father is, the kind of vision and foresight that he had to allow you to be a girl who could grow in her own truth, and to allow that in a culture that said, nobody else is doing that.
I mean, your father may be the bravest person I've ever seen.
About my father, I can say that he let me to be who I wanted.
He did not stop me.
And if he would have become the typical father who stopped their daughters not to go to school, not to be independent, not to have a say, not to have the right to speak, I wouldn't have become who I am today.
My father never ever, ever stopped me from having a say and from saying that I do have an opinion, even if I'm like 8 9 10, 11.
He said, yes, your view matters and you should give your ideas.
He would appreciate it.
He would say, oh, well done, amazing.
And that is not true of all women in your culture.
Yes, yes.
So I was asking your daughter.
You share that Nobel Peace Prize in a way, because to be able to raise a daughter who could live her truth the way your daughter is so exemplary speaks to you and speaks to your wife.
And for you to be the kind of man who could see this.
I mean we see in the movie.
It's a really precious moment in He Named Me Malala When you're brought the scrolls of your family tree and there is not one female's name on the generations and you look at it and say I'm going to put my daughter's name Malala.
Why did you do that?
In patriarchal society, usually women are associated only with men.
Mr. So-and-so's daughter, Mr. So-and-so's mother.
Even if you take a woman to the doctor and the doctor asks, what's this lady's name?
And the man says, just write Mr. So-and-so's wife.
Write Mr. So-and-so's daughter.
For me, it was unacceptable.
Malala had a name.
And were you doing this in defiance of the culture?
Yes, of course.
I mean, I can't say that in patriarchal societies, fathers don't love their daughters.
How you manifest your love?
Is your love only controlling your daughters?
Is your love, only to make them like slaves.
And you say that I am controlling your honor and chastity.
That's why I'm keeping you in four walls.
I'm not educating you because it is my love.
For me, love was something different.
For me because of my education, the way I was groomed, I learned that love means freedom, love means respect, love means independence.
And that made my treatment and my mindset and my behavior different towards my daughter.
So one of the things that struck me the most in He Named Me Malala is you said she was not shot by a person but by an ideology.
What did you mean by that?
Yeah, that's a very important question.
The way some of the terrorists take Islam is the way they define it.
I mean, if you ask the guys who attacked her, they don't know.
They have been just told that.
Oh, somebody told him that this girl she's campaigning for Western education, then she should be killed.
So she's forgiven them.
She never had any anger.
You didn't have any anger either?
Of course I mean.
I have an anger because of the power seekers who have defamed and distorted the true version of Islam.
I have anger.
About that?
About that.
And I feel pity on the youth and on the young men who have been recruited for this horrible job.
They don't know.
They have completely been brainwashed like robots.
I feel pity for them.
And I feel pity for the boys who did that.
In the beginning in the film, it seems as though you were blaming yourself.
You were blaming yourself that this had happened.
How did you release yourself from that blame or burden?
I had a worry that the world may be thinking that okay, she was a child and she should have been stopped by father.
But when I asked her mother and I believe in her because when I go out of my home I don't look in a mirror
I just stand in front of her and say, am I okay?
And she says, yes.
And then I go out.
So I just whispered in her ear and I said, What do you think?
Am I responsible what has happened to her?
And she said, no.
And since this day, while we are sitting with you, Malala has never expressed a single word, which conveys the difficulty she has gone through because of me.
And I used to tell my wife that if they kill me, I have no other option.
It's fine.
It's a bad thing, but it's fine.
But the worst thing I imagine if they attack my daughter.
And the worst thing happened.
And the worst thing happened.
And the worst thing happened.
But man proposes, God disposes.
Yes.
God has his own plans.
How do you define God?
I'll ask you both.
For me, God really is another name for love. for kindness, mercy, heart, all these feelings.
And I think God isn't that tiny, that conservative being who wants us to live a very strict life.
Like all the religious scholars used to say in Swat, like the Taliban, that you should dress in a specific way, you should talk in a specific way.
And I used to wonder like is God just sitting there and looking at my shoes and looking at my dress?
And thinking okay, so I have put on like my dress is too small, and now he's going to send me to hell.
And this is like how you think of God.
For me, God is the name of love.
He's the name of kindness.
I love that definition.
And you, Siyadi?
I think for me, God...
And when I become completely disappointed and in utter despair and I see nothing to help me, I find God beside myself.
And I have seen God when Malala was attacked.
You got closer?
Became closer?
Yeah.
Malala, finish this sentence, I believe.
I believe and I know for sure that if you have strong commitment within your heart, if you have love in your heart that you want to do something better, The whole world and the whole universe supports you and your cause.
And I had this simple one word or one sentence dream that was to see every child going to school.
And I spoke out for it and my father spoke out for it in this small valley in Pakistan, Swat Valley.
And that journey started and now it's going on and getting better and developing each and every day.
What do you believe about love?
Love is the greatest thing on earth.
It's what can be more beautiful than love.
And the love of your parents, the love of your brother.
And after that take, what I received was the love of people.
And that really strengthened me.
I might not have been able to go forward.
Yeah.
I think in many ways.
You know, I was praying.
I didn't know you and I was praying.
I think you were healed by the prayers of the world.
Thank you all for sharing this time.
Thank you.
You are the bravest girl in the world.
Thank you so much.
It's wonderful talking to you.
Thank you.
I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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