I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Jack Kornfield is considered one of the elders of American Buddhist thought.
Ivy League educated, Jack majored in Asian studies at Dartmouth and found himself drawn to Buddhism, though he was raised in a Jewish home.
He spends much of his time teaching and lecturing, sharing the wisdom he's gained over 40 years of practicing Buddhism.
In 1967, Jack joined the Peace Corps and requested a post in a Buddhist country.
He was sent to rural Thailand and when his assignment ended he decided to stay and devote his energy to the practice of Buddhism.
He then began formal training as a monk.
Through the rigors of monastic life, meditating for hours, eating very little and owning few possessions, Jack finally experienced the deep awakening he longed for.
After five years, he decided to leave the monastery and head home to share what he'd learned, integrating the ancient teachings of Buddhism with life in the modern world.
And that became his mission.
A prolific writer, he's authored 13 books.
His most recent, Bringing Home the Dharma, is all about applying Buddhist practices to our everyday lives.
Jack says we don't have to travel to the Himalayas or a mountaintop monastery to find enlightenment and peace.
We all can experience it right where we are.
So let's start at the very beginning if we can.
What is Buddhism?
Is it a religion or a tradition or a way of being?
Buddhism started with the teachings of the Buddha.
And then for some people it became a religion, so it's certainly a big world religion.
But on the other hand, as the Dalai Lama says, it's primarily a science of mind.
That is to say the teachings of Buddhism.
Don't ask anybody to become a Buddhist or change in that way.
Or to believe in Buddhism?
Or to believe in Buddhism.
So you can be a Christian and be a Buddhist?
Exactly.
You can be Jewish and be a Buddhist.
Exactly.
Yes.
You can be a Muslim and be a Buddhist.
You can be a Muslim and be a Buddhist.
Exactly.
That is to say you can be a Christian or a Jewish and use Buddhist practices.
Buddhist practices.
So what do Buddhists believe?
There's not so much about belief, which is why it's not exactly a religion.
Right.
Instead, you might ask, what is it that Buddhists practice?
Can you explain to us what Dharma means?
Because sometimes it feels elusive what it really means.
So Dharma is a word that means truth, but it also is a word that means the path or the way to awakening.
And in many traditions, certainly in the Indian traditions, the word Dharma is used as an invitation for people to realize that we can go through our lives kind of half-asleep, or we can be more present for one another, for our life, for what matters in our heart.
And the teachings of Dharma are ways to do that, trainings of mindfulness and presence and so forth.
You know, there's so many people who, out of their unknowingness or just ignorance, think that Buddhism is idol worship because there is the statue of the Buddha.
What is the significance of the statue?
There weren't statues for 500 years, and the first Buddhist statues were carved to look like Greek gods.
They'd learned from the Greeks.
And they're simply reminders, in the same way that you might go in a Catholic church and see a statue of Mother Mary.
It's not Mother Mary, and you're not worshiping her as an idol.
It's a reminder of the compassion and mercy of Mary.
So it's exactly the same.
Today, there are nearly 500 million Buddhists worldwide, and almost 99% of them live in Asia.
There are many different schools of Buddhism.
You may be familiar with Tibetan Buddhism or Zen Buddhism, for instance.
And the common thread they all share is the practice of compassion, meditation, and mindfulness.
The history of Buddhism begins more than 2500 years ago in the Himalayan foothills with the man who would come to be known as Buddha Siddhartha Gautama.
It is said Siddhartha was born a wealthy prince and lived a luxurious life.
But as a young man he became disillusioned when he realized that riches could not prevent sickness, old age or death.
As the story goes, Siddhartha was eager to find the answer to humanity's suffering, so he abandoned his worldly possessions and became a wandering monk on the search for enlightenment.
He did six years of training in the forests of India and came to this realization that not only is there suffering and difficulty in life, but there's also a way for the heart to be free, no matter where you are.
And that freedom, which is compassion and wakefulness, that he found and discovered.
He said here are some systematic ways that you can learn to do this in yourself.
And all of Buddhism really is the offerings of those teachings for the benefit of people who want to learn how to free their own hearts.
So he came to that sense of enlightenment.
Yes.
And then wanted to bestow that enlightenment upon the people.
That's right.
To offer that to the people.
And he was wandering down the road and the first story told about him anyway.
And a man came up and said, you know, you look like some handsome prince, which he was.
And obviously he'd had this amazing enlightenment experience.
You're extraordinary.
Are you some kind of God?
And he said, no.
He said, well then, are you a wizard or magician?
No, he said.
Well, are you a human?
And he said, no.
And then the man said, then what are you?
And he smiled and he said, I am awake.
And in that simple sentence, I am awake, really gave all the teachings that were to follow, or the invitations that we can live lost in our fear, lost in our confusion, lost in our or.
We all know at the moment maybe we're hiking in the mountains, or our grandchild was born, or we fall in love, or we listen to a piece of music and we realize that the heart also could be full of connection and love, which is the reality of our life.
Yes.
And how do you define being awake?
What does it mean to live an awakened life?
To live an awakened life is to be here, in the reality of the present, in the now, which is all we have.
And to recognize that thoughts about the future are thoughts.
You can use them, but you don't have to believe them because half the time they don't come true.
And thoughts about the past are gone.
The past you can learn from.
But to be awake is to live here, so that when you are with the person you love, you're really present, or with your dog, or with the work that you're devoting yourself to or your creative life, or whether you listen to your heart and realize that you can be caught in fear and confusion.
The poet Hafiz says, fear is the cheapest room in the house.
I'd like to see you in better living conditions.
I love that.
And so to live awake means to... That's a tweetable moment.
...means exactly, spread that around.
Fear is the cheapest room in the house.
I'd like to see you in better living conditions.
I'd like to see you in better living conditions.
So to live awake... I love that one.
Is to sense that the fear or contraction or confusion that we have is not the end of the story, that we have a capacity for freedom and dignity, no matter what.
And there is a way you say in bringing home the Dharma.
The whole book is about being awakened in every moment.
Yes.
Yes.
And I've tried to write that both in Bringing Home the Dharma and in this other book that you've seen, Path with Heart, which has the eightfold path.
It has the path of.
Here is right mindfulness, here is what's called right livelihood, where you take your work and say how can I do this work with compassion and presence and care for myself and for all those that I touch?
Yes.
Do you live this?
On a good day, you know, truthfully.
I try to live it and I've gotten much better.
But like all humans, I've learned a lot and I'm way more compassionate.
Yes.
So you decided to become a monk.
I did.
Yes.
What made you want to become a monk?
I became a monk partly because I read these cool books about Zen masters and I said I wonder if there still are any.
And partly because I had so much suffering in my family and nothing in my education taught me about my emotional life or my values.
How do I live?
That wasn't part of the curriculum.
Now it is.
Yeah.
I graduated from Ivy League education, Dartmouth College, but it was only half of an education.
I learned science and history and philosophy, but nobody taught me how to deal with my fear or my anger.
Nobody taught me how to... All that emotional stuff.
Emotional stuff, which is what plays out in our lives.
Yeah.
So I read these books, And then I thought, how do I find this?
And so I asked the Peace Corps to send me to a Buddhist country.
And they sent me to Thailand and I was sent way out in the Mekong River Valley working in tropical medicine, which was fantastic.
And then I looked around and I said, who are the good teachers?
I need to learn how to deal with my own inner life and my broken heart, really from my family, my grief and and confusion as a young man.
Well, I think that's such a beautiful acknowledgement.
I really think that is.
I think most people never acknowledge the broken heart that they have from their families.
And I can feel that for so many people who are listening to us and seeing us right now.
And in acknowledging it, for me, with all the pain in it, I needed help.
So then I said, all right, somebody help me investigate.
Somebody teach me how to deal with this.
Investigate, yeah.
And the first thing was just to teach me that it was possible to be with myself.
Because when I first started to meditate in the monastery, I tried to be very peaceful.
And because my family history was very painful, I had a violent and quite abusive father.
Were your parents religious people?
They were not particularly.
He was a scientist and in many ways brilliant, but also he would beat my mother, which terrified me as a child.
And so I was going to make myself peaceful in the monastery because I didn't want to be like him.
And there I am sitting and meditating.
And after a while, as I got quiet, I realized that I could get angry too.
I had stuffed it, you know, because I was afraid I would be like my father.
And then I realized, oh, I have this in me too, that we have everything in us.
And I went to my teacher kind of a little bit shocked.
I said, I thought I was this peaceful guy, and I was sitting here, and all these other stories come.
And he said, good.
This is where you really learn compassion.
It's not that you have to get rid of the anger, because I had to learn not only to be compassionate for myself, but for my father, for his parents who treated him the way he did, for all those generations and for people who get caught in things.
He said, Here's where you learn compassion.
And so, when I've now been practicing and living and teaching here in the West for all these years, that's really the place where people need to start.
Yes.
You say our Western culture.
One of the reasons why I believe that you thought that it would work here that our Western culture has produced a society suffering from epidemic, loneliness and self-hatred.
Can you speak to that?
Well, Annie Lamott, who was your guest recently, she said, my mind is like a bad neighborhood.
I try not to go there alone.
So what happens often when people first sit and try to quiet themselves, is they don't know how to do it.
And the main thing that comes up is self-judgment.
All right, I want to quiet and feel my body.
I can't.
I'm no good at this.
And not only am I no good at that, but my father or my teacher said I can't draw.
I can't act.
I can't.
And we've internalized a lot of the judgment or a lot of the shame, whatever was placed on us as children and we believe those stories.
So one of the first teachings is to be able to see those stories and say oh, this is the judging mind.
Thank you for your opinion, to laugh at it, really, and say, it's not who I am.
That's just a story.
And all of a sudden your identity begins to shift from the person who was told you're no good or you should be ashamed, or whatever it self-judgment to realize your own presence and dignity and that you carry this beauty.
The teaching in Buddhism is called original goodness or nobility of spirit.
It's the first teaching.
And with it, then, you can meet these difficulties and say, yes, I know you.
This is judgment.
This is anger.
Thank you.
That's not who I am.
When you practice little by little, you realize you can start again.
And we, as human beings, have this amazing capacity to be reborn at breakfast every day and say this is a new day.
Who will I be?
I love that.
I love that.
And so speak to the self-hatred that you were talking about.
You say...
We're a culture with loneliness and self hatred and that self hatred shows up.
Well, it shows up visibly when you look at our culture and you see one person in a car, big houses with one person in a room.
Instead of having extended families villages communities, where people were really engaged with one another, we're engaged by texting one another.
We're engaged by our work and distance from one another has grown over the years.
Yes.
And in some ways, we're much more prosperous.
But in other ways, we're really more lonely and isolated.
And in the same way, we live in a culture that doesn't know how to grieve so well.
We have losses and grief.
And part of the art of quieting yourself is also to honor the tears that you carry.
Oh, I love that.
And that the tears have a certain sacredness as much as the joy.
Honor the tears that you carry.
Because what happens when people begin to take the time to quiet is the unfinished business of the heart shows itself.
And this person you lost or this thing you cared about, all of a sudden the tears will come.
Oh, yes, I really need to honor them.
And then if you allow those tears, they wash you.
And from it, you become tenderized.
You become kinder, more compassionate.
And you get up into the world and you go, oh, this is really precious.
Now I really want to care.
And that just means allowing yourself to feel your feelings and not numb your feelings.
Exactly.
So how do we, each of us, begin to do what you talk about in one of the chapters?
That's chapter five, as a matter of fact, making our heart a zone of peace.
How do we begin?
How do we actually do that?
So in the years of teaching for people, what I've found is that it helps to have some time each day where you take deliberately 5 10 15, 20 minutes just to be with yourself and quiet your mind and tend to your heart.
Because we get so caught up that we lose touch with ourselves.
And that can be sitting outside in nature as we are in this beautiful place, or it can be finding some very simple meditation practice that uses the quality of loving awareness to your body.
Isn't that the question for all of us, though?
This is a question for all of you tweet-tweeters out there.
Is my heart a zone of peace?
And the truth is, If you just focus on making, if you, I focus on making this zone a zone of peace and the next guy focuses on making his a zone of peace.
That's how we get a more peaceful world.
Absolutely.
And that's really all we have control over, isn't it?
Exactly.
And when you do it, it turns out that by making your heart a zone of peace, it affects everybody.
You touch the clerk who's checking you out at the store, the people you're driving around, and they catch it.
It's like communicated somehow through your being.
And to do a little bit of the inner training that meditation or quieting the mind allows means that we can step out of the impatience or the judgment and go oh yeah, here we are.
We're just human beings with one another, with a more open heart.
With a more open heart, and that's what finding your dharma is all about.
Exactly.
Bringing it home.
So tell me, how is it that we can be mindful or practice mindfulness in our every day, in the busyness of the world?
And that's really the question, because we can get so easily overwhelmed by the speed and complexity.
So there are a dozen skillful means that help.
For some people it's taking a few breaths between their activities and by feeling their breath in their body they quiet themselves down.
For some, it's a practice of reflection on love, turning toward the heart.
And when you learn this practice of extending love almost like a prayer, to that teenage girl there and that older man over there.
And pretty soon, in about two minutes.
Instead of being caught up in your worries, you start to fall in love with all the people around you.
There's this sense when you deliberately train the heart to touch into your own loving kindness, it changes you and changes where you are.
Isn't that called the loving kindness meditation?
It is exactly right exactly, loving kindness meditation.
I do that sometimes on the way to work, just sort of, you know, offering them love.
You see the woman crossing the street and you see the man on the corner.
You see the same thing.
Correct, exactly exactly that.
And what's amazing is that we can be lost in our worries and our stories and kind of not so present.
And there's some way in which we're not so here.
And then, with a little bit of the practice of loving, kindness or being aware of your breath and body, you can actually become more present.
It's so interesting that we're having this conversation because In 1992, when I first thought about having my own network, I was looking at the landscape of television and thinking I would like to create a space where there's actually mindful television.
Fantastic.
Yes.
And as we were just sitting here, I realized that's what we've done.
Yes.
Mindful television.
So you use the acronym RAIN, R-A-I-N to help remind us of the four key principles that help us become more mindful.
You say there first must be recognition.
Yes.
Acceptance.
Yes.
Investigation and non-identification.
Let's talk about those four things because, you know, my goal from now on is to live my life as a more awakened person vibrant, alive human being, is to not let any moment pass without my acknowledgement and full experience of it.
Let every encounter be something that makes me more fully alive.
Is that possible?
Yes, it's possible.
And I think it's really our human birthright.
You can live in a fully awake and caring way.
And what it asks of you is that you devote yourself to it, that you quiet yourself periodically enough to learn.
And in order to do that, I've got to practice.
You've got to practice.
Exactly, because otherwise we get caught up when we lose it.
We all know how we lose it.
Yeah, yeah.
And so you have some practice or some way.
For some people, it's walking in nature.
For some, it might be doing tai chi or qigong.
For me, it's walking in nature.
It's being with my dogs.
It's actually meditating.
And it's also being fully present.
If I am at the sink making a cup of tea, I happen to love masala chai.
I love the process of meditation, boiling the water and letting the tea steam and steaming the milk, and all of that.
So daily ritual is also a way that I am able to.
When they say in Zen, there are two things.
You sit and you sweep the garden and they're both sacred.
So that's what you're saying.
You sit.
Everybody needs to take some time in some way to quiet themselves and really listen to their heart, whether it's in the grocery or washing the dishes, to realize you know to feel the soap and the.
You know to delight in the present.
All right.
Acceptance means what?
Acceptance means that you have to accept the way things are before you can move on.
Yeah, I get that.
Even if there's some terrible thing in the world, we'll say racism or nuclear weapons, that we want to somehow find a way to disarm the nuclear world.
The first thing that we have to do is acknowledge there are a lot of nuclear warheads or there is racism.
We can't close our eyes to it.
So we recognize it, we see it, we accept, yes, this is the way things are.
Now I can respond wisely.
Now that I see it clearly, without wishing it weren't so, without denying it, then it becomes possible.
What is the wisest and most compassionate response?
And that's where it goes to investigation.
How did we get here?
What constructs this?
Oh, racism is constructed out of fear.
Out of fear.
Fear and ignorance.
Fear and ignorance.
There's a beautiful passage from James Baldwin where he writes I imagine that the reason that people cling to their hate and ignorance so tightly is that they're afraid that once hate is gone, they will have to feel their own fear and pain.
And so he really describes the mechanism of it, and this is investigation.
That's perfect.
It's not just that it's there, but that, if we're unwilling to notice that we've constructed it out of fear and ignorance,
Yeah, and that hatred and ignorance defers your having to feel your own fear and your own pain.
Exactly, and you project it on, it doesn't matter.
Whatever other.
Whatever other, because you can't bear the truth that we're all so vulnerable, all of us are.
And to recognize your vulnerability and to honor it brings respect, tenderness, appreciation.
And in a different way, a kind of fearlessness.
Not the fearlessness of being afraid of the world, but saying yes, as humans we are vulnerable and I will walk through the world with compassion anyway.
And non-identification means what?
It means that... we don't take it personally.
And there's this beautiful practice.
For example, if you are dealing with a parent who has Alzheimer's, we'll say and you could take it very personally.
Oh, my life, my mother, who you love a lot, and you're worried and you want to tend to all that's correct.
But then there's a practice of compassion where you quiet yourself and you say I wonder how many other people's mothers this week are also suffering from Alzheimer's.
And you realize there's 300000 of us this very day and your heart kind of softens and you say let us carry this with care and dignity.
It's not about me.
It's about this world.
This thing that's happening to me.
Exactly.
And you meet it with a dignity of heart and a care.
With all that, you know, What is it you would most want to offer to our Super Soul Sunday viewers about beginning to live a more awakened life, starting today.
This is like getting three wishes or something.
And I might have three wishes.
So the first would be to say that it's worth it to stop and quiet yourself.
Do whatever you need.
If it's getting up earlier in the morning or staying up a little bit later or building in that walk, or even waiting a few seconds and taking a breath before you press the send button on the email or the tweet and quieting yourself and saying what's my best intention.
Because if you listen to your heart and ask what's my best intention, it will answer.
There's a kind of conversation you can have if you quiet yourself.
So the first thing is to look for moments in the day and times that you can build in, to come back with respect and listening to yourself.
Okay.
And the first wish that people find their way to quiet themselves, that find their own art.
Just as they learn how to cook, just as they learn how to drive, they can learn an inner art and find a practice that works for them.
The second wish is compassion and forgiveness.
It comes up all the time.
You can't live without it.
Without forgiveness, the world is lost.
It's like those two prisoners of war that met years later and one said to the other you know, have you forgiven your captors yet?
And the second one said, no, I never will.
And then he said, well, then they still have you in prison, don't they?
So there's some way in which, as we talked about, you can free yourself from the past through forgiveness.
And it means forgiveness for yourself for all the foolishness and ways that you've been caught, that you didn't know.
And people do it in ways that they don't even know, in myriads of ways.
And the beautiful It is possible for you to let go.
And there's a very simple practice of forgiveness, of looking into the heart in which you hold yourself with forgiveness, and you repeat it over and over in these very, very simple ways.
And at first, it doesn't feel like it works at all.
It's sort of like water on a stone.
I'll never forgive that person.
I'll never forgive myself.
And then at some point you realize they could be on vacation in the Bahamas right now having a great time, and you're there resenting and suffering.
Yes.
We've all been foolish at times and instead of treating ourselves with lack of forgiveness for ourselves or for others, we actually can see it, hold it with compassion, forgiveness and say now, this is the third wish is that you could live with joy and well-being and that this is your birthright.
The Buddhist teachings begin with this kind of exhortation do not forget your original wholeness, your original goodness and beauty, and turn yourself toward what is good.
Turn your heart towards what is good by cultivating forgiveness and compassion and mindful presence.
See the good in one another Nelson Mandela said, he said, it never hurts to see the good in someone.
They often act the better because of it.
And there's some way to see when you see the beauty.
If you're a school teacher and you see the beauty in those kids, they love you as a teacher and it gets reflected and they feel I'm going to do my best because this man or this teacher sees me and gets me.
And so you can choose, you can actually turn toward your innate goodness.
Isn't that what everybody wants?
I mean in all of my talks and you know understandings.
Over the years doing thousands and thousands of shows, I came away with the thread that runs through all of our human experiences that we all want to be validated.
We all want to be seen.
We all want to know that we matter.
And the most you can ever do for somebody is to show up and allow them to know that they have been seen and heard by you.
It's music to my ears.
And it's there forever teachers with their students.
It's there if you run a business and you respect your employees, yes.
Or when somebody says you know, i'd like a little attention.
It's not a little thing, they're asking.
They're actually asking that, that attention.
I like to think of it as loving awareness that when you give someone attention, it's somehow some marrying of your presence and also in that presence that there's love, that you really see the beauty that's behind those eyes of that person.
What's your definition of God?
Do you have one?
I don't tend to use the word God because it gets confused with all these images of, you know, the Sistine Chapel guy with the beard and masculine.
I'd rather use... And the roll call and the black book.
Yeah, exactly.
The world is holy and sacred and the spirit that brings this world and the galaxies into being, that mysterious spirit.
Yes.
And which brings us to life.
If I were to use something for God, it would be that holy sacred spirit that infuses everything, that is everything.
What is the soul?
Now you're asking a mysterious and wonderful question.
I'll do this.
When I look in the mirror, I notice that I've aged, right?
Yeah.
A few more wrinkles, lost the fur up here, whatever.
But that's not who you are, that body.
Who you are is the spirit that was born in this body.
Who you are is the spirit that's hearing these words and sensing the Hawaiian tropical breeze.
And who you are is timeless and... unborn and not limited by this body and mind.
And if you want to use the word soul for that, that would be fine.
I love that.
How do you define spirituality versus religion?
Spirituality is innate.
It is our birthright.
We are spiritual beings because who we are is sacred.
The spirit that was born into every beautiful child is inviolable and pure.
And yes, it gets caught in fears and conditioning, but that's not our true nature.
And spirituality brings us back to that.
Religion is the organized stuff that people talk about or use as forms.
Sometimes it has a little spirituality in it.
Sometimes it doesn't.
What do you think is the purpose of human experience?
To learn to love and to learn to be free.
And to learn to be free.
Yeah, or maybe another language would be to remember who we really are.
You know, to remember the sacredness that you were born with.
What happens when we die, when we lose this body?
What do you think?
I think that all this is practice to die well, but to die well is also to live well.
Each day and each moment we're born anew and we can be present and open and fearless and carry our dignity and compassion in this moment and this and then when death happens, and we'll see.
I've sat with a lot of people who are dying And it's a mysterious and beautiful thing to see, because instead of yes, there can be physical pain and fear, but there also become these moments of incredible love and gratitude and preciousness.
I get to say goodbye to this person.
I get to see this person.
One more day, I haven't died yet.
Oh, I'm so glad to see you.
You know, and there's just this sense of communion of spirit that's outside of time.
Are you optimistic about the human race?
I'm completely optimistic.
It's too wildly mysterious.
And yes, things can get bad.
But I see we are growing and learning and just as we've learned all these outer developments, now is our time to match those with the developments of the heart.
And I see it spreading, and I believe it.
I have tremendous respect for what's possible.
Thank you, Oprah.
Thank you, Jack.
Beautiful.
Perfect.
Perfect.
I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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