I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Nominated for a Tony, an Oscar, a Grammy, an Emmy and a Golden Globe.
Carol has co-written hit after hit, like Nobody Does It Better.
Author's Theme Don't Cry Out Loud, and It's My Turn.
Just saying the words makes me want to sing them all, but I'd spare you that, Super Solars.
Her roster of legendary performers include Barbara Streisand, Dinah Ross, Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, Celine Dion and Stevie Wonder.
In her new book They're Playing Our Song, Carol reflects on her spiritual journey both in and out of the recording studio, including the funny, difficult and deeply personal stories behind many of her hit songs.
You know, when you look at the sheer volume, your success is really kind of staggering.
It's kind of awesome because you've written all these songs over the years that are the themes for our lives.
It's more than just the soundtracks.
They're themes for where we were in our lives.
And I'm just curious as to what you tap into to bring that kind of art that resonates with the world into a form that's called songwriting.
Well, I've always believed in my heart that the best songs, the ones that resonate in my soul and therefore go out into the world and resonate in other people's, don't come from us.
They come through us, and I always say a little prayer before I go into my music room, and it's a sort of a prayer of intention.
You know, please let me bring forth something help me that will help heal.
I mean certainly later in my songwriting.
I tried very much for my songs to have some ability to touch others and help them be in a better place than before they heard the song.
But I do try to write in the most simple way feelings and whatever I'm writing about that touch the heart.
I think there's something magical about it.
You know my love for books and my love for authors and my love for people who know how to take the written word and turn it literally into.
You know, a song for our life.
But I think there's something magical that, something of not really of this earth that happens when it becomes music.
I think you're right.
And I think it's when the perfect, the lyric that fits a melody just perfectly.
It's not the melody, it's not the lyric, it's the combination where one and one become three.
And I feel that those songs they can be.
It's so unfair really, because they can be written sometimes in two hours, like that, but that song can cross boundaries all over the world and because music is so universal and someone can slave on writing a book for three years, four years and may not touch as many people as one universal song that goes out into the universe.
And you can read a book and not remember one single phrase, or you know words, but there are songs and themes that stay in our head forever.
Yeah.
That's how it was for me always from when I was very small.
I'd hear a song and it would just become a mantra in my head.
It would go over and over.
And the same.
Once I was writing them over and over, almost to the point of like I don't want to hear that.
But I couldn't help it.
We've all had that happen to us.
You go and you hear a song and then you get up in the middle of the night.
And it's still playing.
It's still playing.
It's still playing.
So when did you know i am a songwriter?
Was it when you had the first hit groovy kind of love?
No, i well, that's when i knew i could write a hit song, uh-huh.
But i knew i was a songwriter in high school, when that's all i wanted to do was go back home and write songs, just finish my homework and write songs and just keep listening to the radio and writing more and more songs, and Of course they didn't go anywhere.
But I knew this is what I wanted to do and this is what I had to do.
And I wrote songs as a very little girl.
I would put my lyrics to melodies that were on the radio at the time or on television.
And I would sing them for my parents.
So writing songs is your calling, your passion, your purpose?
Well, it certainly has been.
There came a point where, as I got older, that I felt the same number of people weren't calling me to write film songs.
They weren't calling me to write for so-and-so or do you have a song for so-and-so.
So I shifted and started painting.
And then I wrote this book.
Because what I learned in my life is, for me, I need to be creative.
I need to use this energy that's inside of me to create.
Creativity is your spiritual practice, or songwriting is your spiritual practice?
Creativity is my spiritual practice, which has taken the form of songwriting for most of my life.
But it can be used in other ways, even in giving back to others, which is very important in our third act.
But what I get from their playing our song is not that you were just a songwriter.
It wasn't something that you just did.
It is also who you are and what you did came out of who you are.
That it's an expression of a deeper, higher self.
Yes, and it's also where I lived.
I was a songwriter.
That gave me my identity.
My songs were expressing my feelings.
And there was no place else in my life that I was as connected and as high functioning and as positive as I was in the lane of songwriting.
When I got outside that lane, it's kind of like channels on a television.
Some channels come in perfectly clear and other channels are all fuzzy and you go.
What's the matter with my television?
Well, if you think of all of us as giant televisions, some of our channels come in clearer than others.
Songwriting was perfectly clear.
Nothing could mess that up.
When I was writing a song, I wasn't being a hypochondriac.
I wasn't afraid of dying.
I wasn't afraid of all the fears and anxieties that plagued me as a small little person and stayed.
You weren't worried about your weight.
Oh, I wasn't worried about my weight.
I write in the book my weight was perfect only once.
Yeah.
About six pounds, seven ounces on the day I was born.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't know.
You know, I know I'm not heavy today and people hear me and they go, what does it matter with her?
What are you talking about?
Yes.
But I do have a picture in my book of me at 10 years old and I was kind of square with a head on top.
And it doesn't matter.
It's a message you get.
Well, of course you.
I was just going to say it doesn't matter, because you know we were at a, we were, we were at a party, and And you were telling me this story.
We were talking about our mothers.
And you shared this story of your mother telling you to walk behind me Fatty, which you know You're embarrassing me.
...made my eyes water.
Walk behind me, Fatty.
You're embarrassing me.
Yes.
My mother saw me as an extension of her, I guess, narcissistic self.
Yeah.
And it wasn't good enough for her, you know.
And I actually I do write about that.
We were going out to get me a party dress.
And shopping was another one of those horrible experiences.
It's like other friends of mine, oh, we're going shopping.
And it was like, oh, no, I have to go shopping.
If you're the heavy girl.
If you're the heavy girl.
And we went to one store and nothing fit me.
You know, I'd outgrown the sizes.
How old were you when that happened?
I was about 12 years old.
I just feel for you, Cal.
Yeah.
And then my mother said, OK, we're going to go to a plus-sized store.
And they had children's clothing.
And I'll never forget this.
We get off the elevator at the children's floor, and there's a lady there.
I don't know what she looked like, but I do remember that silver tray filled with chocolate chip cookies.
And she said, would you like a cookie?
And as my hand reached out to take the biggest cookie on the plate, my mother pushed that woman away.
And she said, they should be ashamed of themselves.
I mean, what do they want to do?
Just keep their fatties, you know?
And so she wasn't wrong, but it was like, you know, Then I had to go put on all these clothes that did unfortunately fit me.
And we bought this very unattractive hot pink dress.
And, as I write in the book, when I wore it there was a lot of pink coming at you because i was a fat little child.
And and that mindset of my, you see, we internalize as well.
You know, messages we got in our childhood behind me fatty, that's a tough one, that's a tough one, that's a tough one.
And that voice though, years later my mother was so proud of me.
But that voice becomes In your head.
And you don't need anyone to tell you that.
You're saying it to yourself.
Over and over and over.
That's your replay.
That's your tape.
And it's how you make yourself feel bad about yourself.
And it's why And I've worked out a lot of things in my life that I'm very grateful to be able to tell you
But I have never worked out, to this day, a healthy relationship with food.
I mean, I...
It's just either I'm dieting or I'm gaining weight.
And I'm so conscious of what will I eat for lunch?
What will I eat for dinner?
Will I eat dinner?
Maybe I won't eat dinner tonight.
Maybe I'll just have a protein drink because I ate so much at lunch.
Oh, but that looks so good.
I mean, it's just a constant.
And who cares?
I mean, I say.
At this stage in your life when you're still.
I'm old already.
I mean, who cares?
Who's looking?
What am I doing to myself?
It's just a mind game to just not allow yourself complete peace.
Forget about success, you know, in terms of songs.
That's fantastic.
I'm grateful for that talent and I'm grateful for the success I've had.
But I've struggled to become better, more conscious, more loving, more giving person in my life, you know, and those things have come to me later in life, with more awareness and more awareness, and studying Kabbalah and studying Buddhism, and studying and reading, and always searching, always searching for that place of peace and open heart.
After 50 years of writing some of the most popular songs, Carol Baer Sager has finally written her own life story.
In her new book They're Playing Our Song, Carol shares the most vulnerable times in her life, including her nearly decade-long marriage and painful breakup from composer songwriter, producer and singer Burt Bacharach.
Together, Burt and Carol wrote 13 hit songs, including the now classic number one worldwide smash.
That's What Friends Are For.
Performed by Stevie Wonder, Elton John, Gladys Knight and Dionne Warwick That's What Friends Are For broke global sales records and won two Grammys in 1986.
That song of the year also raised AIDS awareness and over 3 million for the American Foundation for AIDS Research at the time.
I want to talk about the process a little bit for you.
I think it is all art.
Actually, Rainn Wilson was on here couple of years ago and said there's no difference between art and prayer, that there is a way of connecting to that which is beyond yourself, and that out of that alignment with something bigger than yourself comes the art.
I think there's some true, some real truth in that.
For me, being primarily a lyricist, although I studied music most of my life for me I know That when I hear something that has the potential of being a beautiful melody, it moves me in a way that I suddenly hear words that would not have ordinarily come to me.
And they just start to come because the music moves me to a place.
But the best story is that that's what Friends are for, where Bert played me.
Da-da, da-da-da-da, da-da-da.
And I said, oh, that's pretty.
How about, I never thought I'd feel this way.
And he said, that's not what I played.
I played da-da, da-da-da-da, da-da-da.
I said, yes, that's lovely.
I never thought I, Carol, I'm playing da-da.
Oh, but what's the difference?
It's just a 16th note.
It's a difference to me.
I'm playing da-da, da-da-da-da.
Okay, so then just say and.
And I never thought I'd feel this way.
That's where the and came from.
And guess what?
It is so much better that way.
It is so much better that way lyrically.
It is so much better that way melodically.
And it's so much better to start a song like that because you're coming in in the middle of a thought.
And who knew any of that at the time?
That's when you're being, that's when something greater than you is inspiring you to make something more than you thought you were making.
So when you heard the melody, the words just came to you?
In an instant.
Wow.
In an instant.
And I didn't know what we were going to write about.
But certain melodies bring out feelings in me that then come into words.
And then those words came.
So, and so I never thought I'd feel this way.
First line of the song, you added and to fit the 16th note.
And I never thought I'd feel this way.
And then do you then try to tell a story through the writing or then what comes next?
I don't know what happens.
It's pieces.
I just knew that the next line when he played it to me was and as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad I got this chance to say that I do believe I love you.
I mean, it just felt like that's what I was hearing.
Oh, wow.
And, um... That feels psychic.
Well, as I said, they come through me.
Yes, it feels like... I don't think them out in advance.
So then you get, I wanted to believe I love you.
If I should ever go away, well, then close your eyes and try to feel the way we do today.
And then if you can remember, keep smiling, keep shining, knowing you can always count on me.
For sure.
That's what friends are for.
Did you know that that's where you were getting to?
No, but when I heard, I knew the verse.
And then Bert had a melody.
It was about, you know, Friendship, and that's the title came to me.
In good times, in bad times, I'll be on your side forevermore.
Forevermore.
That's what friends are for.
And Elton said, if this isn't a number one record, I will leave the business.
We know he wouldn't have left the business, but still, it was a very positive statement.
And I agreed with him.
You put all of those voices together.
Those voices, together with Bert at the keyboard and Bert's orchestration and strings coming in when they came in.
And Gladys,
Everybody lifted it one step.
See to me a great record sometimes yeah, is when it just keeps lifting you higher than you thought you could be, and then you're just, you're there, you're just there, and and it's so much more than what you wrote, it's so much more than the song.
Now it becomes the song, the artist, the arrangement, the record.
You know wow, that's A magical spiritual thing.
Yes.
That's a God thing.
Yes.
That's a God thing.
That's when God steps in and says, I'll take it from here.
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Looking back on her 50-year career, Carol says some songs feel like strangers to her.
Others define who she believes she is.
She calls those her soul songs, including her radiant 1998 hit, The Prayer.
Performed by Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli.
The prayer was called Breathtaking and Exquisite by Billboard magazine.
Carol considers it her most successful offering to the world because she believes it sends healing to anyone who hears it.
So how did the prayer come about?
The prayer is the song I'm proudest of writing, of any song in my life, co-writing.
And I wrote it with David Foster.
We were doing an animated film.
And the prayer was written for the mother.
It was written, exactly.
The mother was sending her daughter off on an adventure that had danger in it.
And I said to David, she should sing a prayer for her daughter.
He said, that's a nice idea.
And he started to play.
I mean, when David starts to play.
I know.
You know I have been so fortunate because I have written Babyface Kenny, Babyface Edwards, David Foster, Carly Simon.
Carol King.
I mean, they just have to play.
Yeah.
And it was so pretty what he was playing.
And I said, wait, wait.
And I said, play that again.
Which I think is my, that's the line I say the most in my life probably.
Play that again.
Because they can go buy it.
A musician can go right by that moment that you just heard that you want to grab.
That you're tapping into.
Yeah.
Play that again.
Yeah.
And he did.
And it was beautiful.
And I suddenly started to hear, I pray you'll be our eyes and watch us from above.
And I suddenly...
You know when I think about it now.
The song is beautiful, but what is that song without Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli when they sing it together?
They take me to a place, and I say that, I guess I say that in the song, guide me to a place...
Lead us to a place and guide us with your grace.
They take you there.
They take me there.
I know.
There's something... You hear that song?
It's like it has... gone to its fullest potential, you know?
And that's what we all hope to do with our lives.
That's what we hope to do in this conversation, right?
That's what we hope to do.
Yeah.
They are the ultimate when you put those two voices together.
Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli.
Have you heard Yolanda Adams and Donnie McClurkin do it too?
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
And Josh Groban did it beautifully with Charlotte Church.
And, I mean, I've heard so many versions.
It's hard to mess it up.
Well, yes, if you have two.
But you must have two wonderful voices.
You must.
So when you finished, did the prayer come all at once?
Yes.
Yes, it did.
And it came, I'm sorry to say this, it came effortlessly.
Wow.
And it came, and we knew.
We knew it was, I knew.
Sacred.
Yes.
And David has since told me that the prayer is one of only three songs in the world that's played at both weddings and funerals.
The other two songs are Ave Maria and Wind Beneath My Wings.
That's true.
Oh, yes.
And when I hear the prayer, even today, I just feel thank you God, for allowing this song to come through me.
Because it's everything.
I think it's my theme of my life.
I think all I ever wanted in my life was to feel safe.
Mm-hmm. to feel safe, to feel loved, and to feel like I could help others feel the same.
And that song does that for me.
And don't you feel in many ways that the prayer is your offering?
Yes.
It is literally your offering to the world.
Yes.
It's what I can give.
Yes.
Do you experience or feel God when you're writing this song?
Like when you finished the prayer, did you feel like the peace or presence?
I felt light.
All was right.
There was no anxiety inside of me.
There was only this sense of... Tapping into something higher.
Yes, something more than us.
Like so many artists, Carol Baer Sager used songwriting to heal her own troubled heart.
Her music gave to others what Carol says she struggled to give herself.
As a child, Carol was plagued by painful criticism and self-doubt, which manifested into crippling lifelong anxiety.
As it does with so many other people, success only magnified Carol's difficulties.
In 1977, when she should have been celebrating her first Academy Award nomination with the James Bond theme Nobody Does It Better.
Carol says she was paralyzed with fear.
The fact that you, Carol Bear Sager, you're at the Oscars.
I remember this vividly.
You're at the Oscars, you hate your dress, you're looking around at everybody else, you're thinking you're too fat, you don't want to even, you know.
So you miss so many moments by not actually being in the moment.
I was at you're talking about when Nobody Does It Better was nominated for an Oscar and i swear to all of you, i was partly praying we didn't win, because i didn't feel that i could make it from my seat to the stage and be coherent or even get there.
I don't know what i was feeling, but i i felt Disappointment and relief at the exact time that they announced the winner.
Was you, light up my life?
And you were somewhat relieved.
I wasn't ready.
I wasn't ready to be me.
I now I will say when bird and I run the Grammy for that's what friends are for I was thrilled, I was delighted, but I still wasn't at peace with myself because I
One week later, I was supposed to go in and be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame.
And it was with, if you can imagine, my idols.
My idol was Carole King.
She knows this.
So it was with Carole King and Jerry Goffin.
And get this, it was Paul McCartney and John Lennon.
And we'd just won the Grammy.
And I was supposed to go in.
And I sort of had a mini nervous breakdown.
I couldn't move out of my bed.
I couldn't go to New York to accept that because I feel and this sounds so crazy, but I feel somewhere back in time I made a deal with the devil.
Give me a fantastic life and I promise you I won't enjoy it.
You know, and it's so hard and so difficult.
So sad to have missed not being present for so much of what other people enjoyed around me.
But it all changed.
That's why I wrote this book.
It all changed.
I mean, it's like when I met Bob and I was in my late 40s.
When I met Bob, my life changed because finally in my life And it's wrong to say it took a man.
I'd rather say to you, I found myself and I went through this world.
I traveled the globe and I came into my own.
And then I had inner peace and then I met this man.
But no, I met this man and he said he loved me and he didn't care what I did or what my accomplishments were.
And he meant it.
And nobody had ever said that to me and meant it in my life.
Nobody.
I mean, and he didn't do it by giving me lavish things.
He just did it by meaning what he said and doing what he said he was going to do.
And suddenly I felt safe.
Feeling safe gave you the opportunity to do all the inner work, all the work that i had been doing.
Yes, suddenly clicked in.
Yes, it's not like i wasn't doing the work, oprah.
I was in therapy at 21 years old because i, not because i thought oh, let me explore myself.
No, i couldn't function, i couldn't.
Sometimes i sat in my therapist's office for a day when she couldn't even see me, but she was kind enough to let me stay in her living room because I didn't know how to live in the world without fear.
I mean, I was very damaged as a very little girl.
Some people are more sensitive.
Sometimes it's in the womb.
Who knows?
I don't blame anyone.
I forgive my mother completely.
I wouldn't be sitting here talking to Oprah Winfrey if I didn't have my mother, who brought me into this world.
I forgive her because she made me push and strive to be seen and heard.
Yeah, and my father loved me unconditionally.
I love him.
There was no, so you were loved, also through your work and your music and those of us you know.
I say thank god that i was raised the way that it was, because if i'd been brought up in a home that was loving and i was nurtured and i got all the things that i saw, i believed maybe you'd still be.
Yeah, i would be in mississippi or milwaukee.
Yeah, i certainly wouldn't have.
I wouldn't be here.
I wouldn't be having this conversation with you, which I'm so grateful for.
When you look at the thread that's connected all the dots of your life, what do you think your real purpose has been?
Well, I think I've had a personal purpose which was to transform from what was a very dark childhood and maybe i could say, i'm sorry to say first 35 years of my life.
I wasn't even when i was having great success.
And this is why i say people shouldn't compare their insides to anybody else's outsides, because i think people could look at me and say Wow, I'll take her life.
Look at her life.
Burt Bacharach.
Look at her life.
Marvin Hamler.
I wasn't inhabiting all of me.
I was only half in my life.
There was part of me that was in fear.
There was part of me that was so insecure I could barely...
I would say my personal purpose was to transform from dark to light.
From fear to being able to love yourself.
I think my purpose here on Earth has been to connect other people and have them feel less alone, because I think my songs at their best made people feel as people came up and told me oh my god, you got me through a painful divorce or your first album, you know they were little cult.
What a legacy to have made people feel less, less alone and more safe.
And I
That's what I wanted all my life.
So if I could put that out there so others could feel it, then I feel I did what I was supposed to do.
And do you feel that your life force is most fulfilled when you're writing or being creative?
Completely.
Completely.
And when I'm giving back now.
That's another way.
I feel very fulfilled when I can give back to others.
And I've gotten so much from this life, and I'm so blessed.
And, you know, you asked me a question.
You asked me, how do you get to this place sooner?
Yeah.
And I listened to you, and I put the answer in my book.
I didn't say it was you, but I said a friend asked me, how do you get to this place sooner?
And my answer was, you don't.
You don't.
You get there when you get there.
You go through everything you go through.
You set an intention.
You know one day you want to be in that place, but you don't get there until you're there.
And it took me that long to get to that place where I can say, I love my life.
I love my friends.
I love my family.
I love my Seven grandchildren, which I came from a very small family and my mother was not inclusive of family.
It was like, oh, no, they're coming.
Oh, shut the doors.
Your sister's coming.
So I didn't know how to open my heart to family.
But it took till now for me to have appreciations. for all that God had always laid in front of me.
But I didn't know how to accept and say, thank you, God.
I knew how to make a gratitude list, but I didn't know how to live it.
So now you're finally doing it.
Yes, I am.
I really am.
You're finally doing it.
You're doing the thing we started to talk.
You're living with a full and open heart.
Yes, and that was the big thing.
God helped me open my heart.
Help me open my heart so that it can be available not just to the people I love, but to anyone who comes in my path.
Let me be able to be loving.
Let me be able to give something.
Thank you for sharing this story.
Oh, thank you so much.
Thank you for sharing this story.
I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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