I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time.
Taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Born in San Antonio, Brene Brown is a fifth generation Texan.
The oldest of four, Brene was raised with tough old fashioned pull yourself up by your bootstraps, Texas values.
It wasn't until her mid 20s that she discovered a deep seated passion for teaching and after earning her bachelor's, master's and PhD, she became a professor at the University of Houston Graduate College of Social Work.
Her research focuses on vulnerability, courage, shame.
It led Brene to reexamine her own life and gave her the strength to open up about her own spiritual awakening in a 2010 TEDx Talk, a regional version of the famous idea sharing TED conference that spotlights innovators and thought leaders.
Much to Brene's surprise, sharing her fears resonated with people, not just in that Texas auditorium, but around the world, garnering more than 8 million views on TED .com.
Brene's research, I thought it was just me, the gifts of imperfection and her New York Times number one best seller daring greatly.
I can't even tell you how long people have been saying, you should have Dr.
Brene Brown on. You should have Dr.
Brene Brown on. And I'm like, who is Dr.
Brene Brown? Now this is so interesting.
Your name starts coming up and I see you in the TED Talk and then I see you on, I think it was Katie's show.
Somebody gives me the book.
I'm like, okay, I hear you.
I hear you. And now you are here.
Oh my God. I know. I know.
And when I met you, it felt like, and when I was reading Daring Greatly, I say, oh God, this is everything I know to be true.
This is, oh my gosh, I should have written this book.
Oh my gosh. So when I met you, it felt, it feels like a reunion.
It feels like kindred spirits.
Well, I feel like I've always known you.
Yes. Yeah. I feel like I've known you my whole life.
I do. I feel that too.
Kindred spirits. So I'm excited about Daring Greatly and I'm excited about you talking to this audience because you watch Super Soul Sunday.
I do. You talking to this audience about what it means to dare greatly.
This came out of the TED Talk, right?
Yeah. It was born on the TED Talk and it was born of just a dozen years of vulnerability research.
And the title itself was a very personal moment in my life.
Yeah. The Theodore Roosevelt quote.
Theodore Roosevelt quote.
Yes. Would you give us that quote?
I will give you the quote.
Which is at the beginning of the book.
Yeah. Yeah. Can I tell you a little bit about what the story is?
Yes. Behind the quote.
I had done TED and I was everywhere all of a sudden for the first time.
I was on CNN .com. I was doing an NPR interviews and my therapist tells me, don't read the comments.
My husband says, don't read the comments, but I read the comments.
Oh, no. Right. Oh. So one day I was reading the comments and I was devastated.
I know. I've read comments before.
It's just devastating how nasty people can be.
Yeah. Yeah. And they were comments like, of course she's embracing imperfection.
If you were Brene Brown, you'd have to, what choice would you have?
Oh. Or less research, more Botox, or maybe you'll be worthy in 20 pounds.
Oh. I mean these kinds of, and you're anonymous, which is such chicken crapola.
I'm not going to cuss during my thing today.
It's just chicken. So I send Steve to work and I send the kids to school.
Your husband Steve?
My husband Steve and I stay in my pajamas and I sit down on the couch and I watch about 10 hours of Downton Abbey reruns and just numb myself out.
I eat some peanut butter.
I'm just sad. And when it was cold, you read the comments.
I read the comments and I was like, this is not worth it, man.
I'm not doing this anymore.
Were these comments posted on the tech talk?
No, no. That's very curated, which I really appreciate.
Yeah. These were like anonymous on news websites.
Oh, I know. Those are the worst.
Like, successful of humanity.
Yes. Those are the worst.
Yeah. So I'm done with the Downton Abbey and I'm like, I don't want to go back to my world where all that hurt is.
So I get out my laptop and I start Googling like, well, what was happening in the US during the Downton Abbey period?
And Theodore Roosevelt's quote comes up because he, yes.
So I read it and it says, it's not the critic who counts.
It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit goes to the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with the man who's sometimes victorious.
But when he fails, at least he does so daring greatly.
And it changed my life, that moment.
You know how when you hear something and you're ready?
Yeah, yeah. And three things happen to me in that moment.
The first was that is who I want to be.
I want to be courageous.
I want to be daring.
You want to be the man in the arena?
I want to be in the arena.
Yeah. The second thing is, Oh my gosh, this is everything I've ever learned about vulnerability.
Yes. It's not winning.
It's not losing. It's showing up and being seen.
And the third thing, which was really helpful for me is from that second, that millisecond forward.
I made a commitment that if you are not in the arena, getting your butt kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in your feedback.
Whoa. I love that. Yeah, yeah.
And anonymous comments, you're not in the arena, man.
You're not in the arena.
Put your name on it.
Own it. If you've got something constructive to say, own it and put it in there.
Yeah. Yeah. If you can't say it in front of me in person, and in front of my kids, don't say it.
And if you can't say it to me in person in front of my kids, duck, duck.
I love that. I love that.
So you go and do, how did you get invited to do that TED talk?
Well, you know, the first TED talk.
The TEDx. The TEDx.
Yeah. So it was the first time the curators put together Houston TEDx.
They invited me to speak and it was a complete God thing for me because I said, yes, I'd love to.
And I get there and I don't even remember them saying, hey, we're going to videotape this or anything.
And I thought I'm going to do some major crazy experimenting because this is University of Houston where I teach.
It feels like home.
It's Houstonians, my people.
And so I said, I'm going to try being vulnerable and talk about vulnerability.
It was a complete experiment.
I even told Steve what I left.
I was like, this could be a disaster, man.
Wow. And then eight million people would watch it.
Eight million people around the world have now watched it.
When you did the TED talk last year, you were talking, oh, 500 people may see it.
Right. And then another couple of hundred on YouTube.
Yeah. And when I was done with it, I came home and I had to come home early from the event because I was hosting my daughter's like 10th birthday party.
And I remember I had the worst vulnerability hangover ever.
I was like, I just admitted to like being crazy in front of 500 people.
Yes. I have a therapist.
Break down. Spiritual awakening.
Yeah. In 2007, Brene was researching and writing about living wholeheartedly when she realized for the first time she wasn't walking the walk or talking the talk.
It hit her hard. Brene called it a full -on breakdown, landing her in intense therapy where she began to recognize it as a spiritual awakening.
And that's the story Brene told to the 500 people at TEDx.
Like you're not supposed to break down as a human, but as an academic, what do you mean spiritual awakening?
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Because it's all about the research.
Yeah. And the numbers.
Yeah. Right. Stats.
Right. Yes. Yeah. Intelligence equals non -believer.
Yes. Yeah. So were you a believer before the breakdown?
What kind of believer were you?
What was your faith -based practice?
Well, I was born and baptized in the Episcopal church, then raised Catholic because I went to Catholic schools in New Orleans.
When I went off to school, I guess it was late, early eighties, was the beginning of there was no line between politics and religion anymore.
And I felt disenfranchised.
And I felt like, and people were using theology that I believed in to push social beliefs I didn't believe in.
And I just got really confused and super pissed off, to be honest with you.
Yes. Yes. And I said, I'm out of here.
I'm not going to do this.
And I believe in God.
I never stop praying because that's in my DNA.
So I've always had a relationship with faith, but probably never stronger than I do now.
Wow. So what does it mean then to dare greatly?
To me, it means the courage to be vulnerable.
It means to show up and be seen, to ask for what you need, to talk about how you're feeling, to have the hard conversations.
You know, when we asked people in the research, you know, what is vulnerability to you?
And let me tell you, I was raised that vulnerability is weakness, like most people.
Yeah. Yeah. Like that was, most people think vulnerability is weakness.
And you know what, after reading, Darren, greatly what I realized and the gifts of imperfection, what I realized, first of all, is I live in the space of vulnerability.
And that is what has made me so successful, is my vulnerability with the audience.
And I think that vulnerability is sort of the cornerstone of confidence.
I think it's the cornerstone because I believe that because unless you can allow yourself to take the risk, to be open, to live as a wholehearted person, when you can do that, you recognize that you're really just like everybody else.
And that gives you the confidence to be yourself, which is all you really need in life is to be more of yourself.
And I do believe, you know, coming from vulnerability is weakness.
When we ask people, what is vulnerability?
And they said things to us like the first date after my divorce, trying to get pregnant after my third miscarriage, sitting with my wife who has stage four breast cancer, making plans for our young children.
You know, the biggest examples that came up from the research was picking up the phone and making a call to someone who's just had a great loss.
Yes. And I thought about that in my own life, like, you know, there's the phone.
I walk up to it and I'm like, what am I going to say?
What am I going to say?
That's what everybody fears.
It's going to make it better.
There's nothing I can say except I'm here.
I'm hurting with you.
You're not alone, but you know what?
I'll call in an hour.
And then I come back in an hour.
I'm like, oh man, it's dinner time.
I'm going to make a casserole.
I'm going to make an expensive casserole.
We've all done that.
Right. And then what happens when an hour turns into a day, turns into a week, and then it's a month later and you run into that friend at the grocery store.
Well, you know what?
You didn't call. Just to show up.
That's all people want.
That's it. It's for you to show up and say, I don't know what to say, but I'm here.
I can't fix this, but I'll walk through the pain with you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
But then what is the feeling that we get when we make the call and we hang up?
To me, that feeling is when I'm aligned with my values and courage is my value.
Absolutely. And you can't get to courage without walking through vulnerability, period.
Now, what is so interesting is you do the Power of Vulnerability TEDx talk and then you go home and have a vulnerability breakdown.
Totally. Totally. And your friend says, you're the worst role model for vulnerability ever.
She is. She's like, oh my God, you suck at this.
I'm like, you know what?
I think this is as good as it gets.
Because you were so accustomed to being the professor, the statistician, the researcher, all of that.
If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.
That's, yeah. Right.
Right. So when you opened yourself up that way, it felt like what?
It felt terrifying and liberating and liberating at the same time.
Which has got to be that tension that you know really well.
But couldn't you feel the audience?
See, when you open yourself up that way, you can literally feel the audience because they're feeling you.
Absolutely. And you're feeling them.
I mean, I just think that's the talks.
I don't let them, I don't let people tape them very often because there's something that happens in that conversation when you're both vulnerable and open and connected.
So you talk about the power of vulnerability and being able to dare greatly to open ourselves up to live as wholehearted people.
When you were able to do that for yourself, did your world shift?
Yeah, it shifted radically, but I didn't just say, oh man, vulnerability has emerged as really critical in the research.
I'm going to be more vulnerable.
It was a street fight for me.
I was like, you know what universe?
You want me to be vulnerable?
Uh -uh. Yeah. Because most people think that it is weakness.
It is. But you say, I love this quote that you say here that it is the key to having meaningful human experiences.
Let's talk about that.
Yeah. When I look at my husband and we're on the verge of a fight.
Yeah. And I say, let's stop because I'm making up this story about what's happening right now.
It's that you don't think I look cute or that you're disappointed in something.
And he's like, what are you talking about?
And I say, no, I'm, I love you and I'm in fear right now and I'm getting, and I'm feeling dangerous.
And he says, I'm in some fear right now too.
And I'm feeling like I'm shutting down.
Those are the moments.
Whoa. Yeah. As opposed to what I would normally do, which would be, you know, anger and blame or my go to places.
Yeah. And doesn't vulnerability open the door to having greater intimacy?
I think it's the only door.
Yeah. I would agree with you on that.
I think it's the only door.
There is no intimacy where there is invulnerability.
You would be shocked how many people when we asked them what is vulnerability, how many people said initiating sex with my wife.
Wow. Yeah, I would be shocked.
Initiating sex with my husband.
Because they feel like they're going to be turned down, rejected.
And it wasn't, it didn't matter where they were married for five minutes or 15 years.
Wow. That, you know, but how, think about this.
We wake up in the morning, we armor up, we go out into the world with this, Hey, take no prisoners.
You're not going to see me.
You're not going to hurt me.
We come home and we don't take that armor off.
And so then all of a sudden, you know, when you talk about sex or intimacy, you get in bed and all of a sudden, you know, it's like two people and big honking armor outfits.
Yeah. You know, and it's, it doesn't work.
I think that that being open is what allows you the confidence to know that everybody else has also felt the same thing.
That there's no emotion that you can have that somebody else hasn't had ever.
Yeah. Isn't that amazing?
Yeah. And that is what carried me through, you know, thousands of interviews.
I know that whatever I'm feeling, there's at least 10 other people who are feeling the same thing.
Which is vulnerability and courage.
Ride and shotgun. Ride and shotgun.
Yeah. I think that was the biggest learning of the breakdown for me.
That in the very same second, I can be brave and scared.
Brave and scared. Yeah.
You say on page 34 here, if we want greater clarity in our purpose or deeper and more meaningful spiritual lives, vulnerability is the path.
Can you explain that?
Greater courage, greater clarity.
So people ask me all the time, you know, they say, I want to go into the arena, but I'm scared and I'm scared to walk through the door.
The one thing, you know, can I take a little armor with me?
And the one thing I, I have found in my life is the only thing you need when you go in is clarity of values and faith.
Clarity of values and faith.
Yeah. Explain to me what that means.
When a person is clear about their values, clear about what they will and will not do, what they will and will not do.
The boundaries about what they're going to do.
And also that I am in my conviction here.
You know what? This is my, this is the article that I wrote.
And if you think I need to lose weight or you think I suck or you think I'm not pretty enough to be on this thing, that's okay.
But I'm standing in my values.
And for me, faith is the organizing principle in my life.
I'm standing in my faith.
I'm standing in my values.
You cannot knock me over.
And you know what else it is?
I think, I think it's also something that I learned on the Open Show years ago.
I think it was Phil who said it when somebody was wondering whether or not they could go back into a relationship where they had, where there'd been infidelity.
Yeah. And he said, can you trust yourself?
You don't have to worry about trusting the other person.
If you can trust yourself that if I am betrayed again, I will be able to love myself enough to make the right decision for myself.
So being able to trust yourself is, is, is key.
God. Would you not agree?
Yeah, it took my breath away a little bit.
Yeah, no, yeah, no, it did.
Yeah. It's that whole idea of owning our story and loving ourselves through the process of owning our story is the bravest thing we'll ever do.
That's a huge belief I've walked out of this with.
I love in the, in the TEDx talk, I think it was a TEDx talk where you talk about the original definition of courage.
Can you share that?
Yeah. I love that. I do too.
It's from the Latin word meaning heart.
And so the original definition was to share all of yourself, share your whole story with your whole heart.
It's an act of courage with an act of storytelling, which I think is true.
I think so many of us, you know, I watched Super Soul Sunday and I love when you talk, you know, you talk a lot about the ego.
Yes. To me, I call the ego the hustler.
He's my, he's my hustler.
Yeah. That's a good, that's a good term for it.
Yeah. He's the hustler.
And the ego says to me, you have no inherent worth.
You got to hustle for it, baby.
How fast are you going to run?
How high are you going to jump?
How many, you know, how many likes do you have on Facebook?
How many comments do you have on that post?
That's the hustle. Yeah.
And isn't it? We now live in a culture that measures itself, ourselves, by how many likes we get on Facebook.
For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
We are in, I feel like scarcity culture.
Never enough. Never good enough, thin enough, rich enough, safe enough, certain enough.
And you know, what I think is interesting is I wanted to get your thought on this just because you've also been looking in the faces of people for the last many years.
Right. Yeah. I started my research six months before 9 11.
Hmm. Obviously coincidentally, we are afraid.
I would say the last 12 years have been marked by a deep fear in our culture.
It's a collective post -traumatic response.
All of a sudden. Oh my God.
I just had a big aha.
I just had a big aha.
Finished speaking, but I just got that.
I got that in a big way.
No, I hope everybody else, I hope other people got it too.
Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm telling?
No, no, no, you go.
No, you go. No, that was such a big aha.
Tell me, no, I can't talk back.
You just said that.
I just realized that we shifted from being on alert and afraid of whether it's the orange code or the yellow code.
We somehow internalized that fear and it shows up.
It shows up in the bickering and the snarkiness and that.
Yeah. That we have internalized the fear.
So we're not worried about what the code alert is anymore because we think we're safe there.
We got Homeland Security looking at that, but that fear has been internalized.
That's what I heard you saying.
That's it. There is a thin.
I got that. No, I think there's like a thin film of terror wrapped around us.
And so if it's not, I'm not safe enough or I'm not secure enough.
It's I'm not liked enough.
I'm not promoted enough.
I'm not loved enough.
I don't have enough.
I don't have enough.
I am not enough. At the very bottom.
Yeah, I'm not enough.
Yeah. Well, that's big, big, big, big, big, big, big.
Somebody rings some bells.
We need some bells to ring on this show.
But that's it. That's it.
And so guess what the number one casualty is of a scarcity culture?
What? Vulnerability.
We shut down. We shut down.
Because I'm not going to let you know.
No, because I'm already scared.
I'm not all together.
Right. Yeah. And the thing is that people are like, oh, well, we lose a little vulnerability, but vulnerability is not just about fear and grief and disappointment.
It's the birthplace of everything we're hungry for.
Creativity. Joy, creativity, faith, love.
Innovation and all of that.
Yes. And the whole thing is there is no innovation and creativity without failure.
Period. So you got to be open enough to take the risk to fail.
Yeah. One of the things that I love in, I think it's the first book, The Gifts of Imperfection, you talk about being a wholehearted person.
Now, my definition of spirituality is living an openhearted life.
So openhearted, wholehearted.
What does it mean to be a wholehearted person?
You have actually, you know, a list of 10 different qualities that wholehearted people have in common.
And so cultivating authenticity, letting go of what people think.
That's the first one.
Let's talk about that.
It's so hard. I thought doing this research, I thought going into it, there were authentic people and inauthentic people.
I had, I did not find any evidence of that at all.
What I found is authenticity is a practice and you choose it every day, sometimes every hour of every day.
And it's a practice.
It's not, I just wake up and say, hey, I'm authentic.
It's that when you walk into a meeting, you have to make the choice.
Am I going to show up and let myself be seen?
Am I gonna, if I can raise my hand and say, wow, y 'all look super excited.
I don't know what in the hell you're talking about.
I'm so lost. You know, that's a choice, right?
And to make that authentic choice, you gotta let go of the fakearoo, I say, I call it the fakearoo.
But you know what? I have found, I mean, I consider myself to be an authentic person, but when I am inauthentic is when I've allowed myself to be around people who were not, and then I have to fake it to be with them.
Oh, it's contagious.
Yes. So they're faking it.
And then, and you know, you're in that situation when you do that, that kind of, you're laughing at jokes that aren't funny.
You're pretending to be comfortable when you're not and lose your own authenticity.
Yeah, I do it. So letting go of what is actionism, because there is no such thing.
No, and I would, this was, you know, first of all, you know that this is what led these 10 guideposts that emerged from the research, is what led to the breakdown.
Yes. Like this did not make me happy.
Because you were like two out of the 10.
I was two out of the 10 and it was, I was cheating.
And you're writing the book.
Right. And so I was, so I had to put the data away.
I didn't write the book until I was in therapy for a year and a half.
Wow. And I went to a therapist with an Excel spreadsheet that said, here are the things that I need more of.
I've got six weeks.
Go. Fix me. Fix me.
Fix me. She said, yeah.
But no. So here's what I learned about.
Oh, I love that you went to a therapist that sees therapists and that you started out by saying, look, I just want to be fixed.
And I want to talk about that mother stuff and all that.
No, no childhood BS.
No childhood BS. Let's just get to it.
Tips and techniques, baby.
Bullet points. Bullet point me.
Save me. Tell me what to do.
Yeah. So perfectionism, what emerged for me in the data was that perfectionism is not about striving for excellence or healthy striving, which I'm for.
Yeah. It's a cognitive behavioral process, a way of thinking and feeling that says this.
If I look perfect, do it perfect, work perfect, and live perfect.
I can avoid or minimize shame, blame, and judgment.
You know what I thought when I was reading this?
I had another aha, aha.
Two people. This was my other aha.
That perfectionism, I never gotten this before, Tom, right?
That perfectionism is the ultimate fear, that the people who are walking around as perfectionists who have to have everything so, yeah, that they are ultimately afraid that the world is going to see them for who they really are and they won't measure up.
There's no question.
That's what it is for me.
That's correct, right?
That's exactly what it is.
Yeah. It's fear. Because it's very different than trying to be excellent and working hard and doing your best.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I call perfectionism the 20 -ton shield.
We carry it around thinking it's going to protect us from being hurt, but it protects us from being seen.
Yeah. It's interesting because I know people who are, and I actually think, you know, kind of bad because you're striving for a world that doesn't exist.
Yeah. And I can see right through it.
Got it. It's so slippery.
I'm like a recovering perfectionist.
Really? It's like one day at a time.
Yeah. Because like with on feeling ...
How did it show up for you?
Academically in my work.
Like if we're, if we've missed church for a couple of Sundays, my kids are going in starched outfits on that Sunday, the next Sunday, like, you know, just, you know, just beyond judgment, which there's no such thing.
Yep. Yep. I love cultivating a resilient spirit, letting go of numbing and powerlessness.
A lot of people are numbed to life.
Yeah. I'm a nummer.
I like it, but it's not, it's not good for me.
Oh, I am too. That's what food is for me.
Food, me too. Yeah.
It's my number. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, sometimes I think, and I've learned a lot from the 12 step community and I've learned a lot and I don't drink and I don't smoke and I'm really watched some of the food stuff carefully.
If they started having like vulnerability aholic meetings where people just said, hi, my name's Brené and I'm scared to death to be vulnerable, you'd have to rent out football stadiums.
Wow. You know, I think we all numb and those people, those of us who can do it chronically and compulsively, I think it's addiction.
We need to have a bigger table at which people can pull up chairs and get help around the numbing.
Does that make sense?
Makes a lot of sense.
Makes a lot of sense.
So I think the numbing is just, yeah.
And I think for me, God is for me, the divine reminder of our inherent worthiness.
Oh, yes. That's what God is for me.
Yes. Because isn't that the key element that you discovered from people who are successful or not who live a wholehearted life or not, is that they feel a sense of worthiness.
That was the absolute bottom line.
Yeah. That they engage with the world from a place of worthiness.
Mm -hmm. Number four on living a wholehearted life and being a wholehearted person is my favor.
I think the way to course correct everything, that's why you and I are soulmates.
Yes. That's why we are, because you understand that the cultivation of gratitude and joy is the way home.
Whoa. Whoa. And people have to know that it is something, and you say this, it's something you say this in here, and you say it in the gifts of perfection, that people, you have to work at it.
Yeah. I was so off base about this before I did this.
I had, you know, oh my God, this is so huge.
Like, I made a commitment to everybody I know.
I said, I will never talk about joy for the rest of my career without talking about gratitude.
Because for 12 years of research, I have never interviewed a single person who talks about the capacity to really experience and soften into joy who does not actively practice gratitude.
You are absolutely right about that.
Period. See, I have done no research, except with my audience for 25 years.
Yeah, except for the 30 years of the research you've done.
Yeah, except for that.
Yeah, but I've done, no, obviously, critical research, but I know that is true.
As you say that, it just, a part of me, it just resonates, and I know that is true.
There is no joy without gratitude.
No, and you know what's tricky?
What? As someone who studies shame and scarcity and fear, I will tell you that if you ask me what's the most terrifying, difficult emotion that we experience as humans, I would say joy.
You would say that the most terrifying is joy?
No question. Why? You know, I often ask parents, I say, you know, I'll have 5 ,000 parents or something in the audience, and I'll say, raise your hand if you've ever stood over your child while he or she was sleeping and thought to yourself, I love you, look, I didn't know it was possible.
Yeah, and then in that split second, picture something horrific happening to yourself.
What if something happened to you?
Yes. How many of you have ever set up and said, wow, work's going good, good relationship with my partner.
Yeah. Parents seem to be doing okay.
Uh -huh. Holy crap. What's going to happen?
Right. So what is that?
You know what that is?
What is that? When we lose our tolerance for vulnerability.
Lose our tolerance for vulnerability, yeah.
Joy becomes foreboding.
I'm not going to feel you.
I'm not going to, I'm not going to soften into this moment of joy because I'm scared.
I'm scared it's going to be taken away.
The other shoe is going to drop.
So say that again. When we lose our tolerance for vulnerability, you said in the book, but I didn't get it this deep, go ahead.
When we lose our tolerance to be vulnerable, yes, joy becomes foreboding.
And so what we do in moments of joyfulness is we try to beat vulnerability to the punch.
Yesterday I'm on the plane.
I'm getting ready to leave.
I'm taking pictures and tweeting them out of Alma cockpit, super soul Sunday, girl, for a bus, baby.
I'm taking pictures.
The plane gets down the runway and has to come back because something's wrong.
I was like, I knew it.
I called Steve. I said, let me just tell you something.
I know because I'm fixing to meet Oprah that I'm going to die at my funeral.
You better say she was going to be on super soul Sunday.
Oh my goodness. And she's like foreboding joy, foreboding joy.
Right. I interviewed a man who told me my whole life, I never got too excited, too joyful about anything.
I just kind of stayed right in the middle.
That way, if things didn't work out, I wasn't devastated.
And if they did work out, it was a pleasant surprise.
Oh my goodness. And so many people say, he said in his sixties, he was in a car accident.
His wife of 40 years was killed.
Wow. And he said the second I realized that she was gone, the first thing I thought was I should have leaned harder into those moments of joy, because that did not protect me from what I feel right now.
We're trying to, we're trying to dress rehearse tragedy so we can beat vulnerability to the punch.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
So you want, so you know what happens?
This is what the joyful people do.
This is what I learned from them in those moments were like, they're getting ready to come here or something.
They're looking at their children or their partner or something great.
They get that shutter too, but you know what they do?
They don't say, oh, there's that shutter of terror about feeling joyful.
I'm going to dress rehearse tragedy.
They say, I'm going to practice gratitude.
So I just said on that plane on the runway for 20 minutes going, I'm grateful.
I'm grateful. And I think I was like BSing a little bit.
I was faking. I am grateful, but gratitude is a practice.
It is tangible. You can see it.
Yeah. It's not an attitude of gratitude.
Absolutely. It is a practice.
And what I found is that when you actively practice gratitude, where you concentrate on not just thinking about it, but write things down, you go through the day looking for it.
There's no question.
You go through the day looking for it.
Isn't it amazing? It's like magic.
It is. And you know what?
I think we appreciate the little things.
Yes. I think one of the things that happens in a culture of scarcity is we're all chasing the extraordinary and we forget, like when I interviewed people who went through horrific things, I mean, I'm talking about the loss of children, genocide, violence, trauma.
And I talked to them about what's the hardest loss.
They never talked about the extraordinary things.
They said, I miss the ordinary moments.
I miss hearing the screen door slam and knowing my husband's home from work.
I miss hearing my kids fighting in the backyard.
I miss the way that my wife set the table.
And those are the moments that are in front of all of us every day that we could stop and say, God, I'm grateful for this.
So I'll just say right now, I'm so grateful for this.
Oh, me too. No, I am.
I'm so grateful for it.
So number five, cultivating intuition and trusting faith, letting go of the need for certainty.
Tell me what that means.
I thought you loved certainty.
Oh, I love it. Gotta love it.
Yeah. It's no good for us.
And that's where you used to live in that space all the time.
Oh my God, yeah. Lock and load, lock and load, lock and load.
Yeah. No, I mean, I think I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure.
To be human is to be invulnerability, to be uncertain.
And I think what happens, you know, I had a very hard assignment for my therapist.
She said, I said, I don't, I think I am pretty, I'm vulnerable enough.
And I'm not sure, you know, I don't, I'm not sure I'm so attached to certainty as you think I am.
He said, go home and ask your husband what you, what he thinks you do when you feel uncertain.
So I said, Steve, Steve.
And then he gave me the look like, does my butt look big?
And these jeans look like this is a no win right here.
And he said, I said, what do I do?
And he goes, you are a bull in a China shop.
I said, what do you mean?
He said, you'll make bad decisions for yourself.
You'll forget about what you believe in.
You make a beeline for certainty at any cost.
Wow. You can't stand the uncertainty of not knowing.
Wow. And so I think we're dangerous.
And I think that's what happens with faith.
Yes. That's exactly what you were talking about in the TEDx talk.
Yeah. People have to know for sure that this is what God said.
Yeah. Faith. Minus vulnerability and mystery is extremism.
Oh my gosh. Or worse, politics.
Please say that again.
Yeah. No faith. It's equation.
This is my equation I think about faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism.
Don't call it faith.
If there's no vulnerability or uncertainty, if you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do faith.
That is so good. I'm going to end right there.
You know what? We're going to come back.
I'm ready. This was too good to try to end in one hour.
Let's do it. We could not.
We have to dare greatly and do another show.
That's it. I'll be right here.
Okay. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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