hey ted talks daily listeners i'm elise hugh today we have an episode of another podcast from the ted audio collective handpicked by us for you we've all heard how important it is to relax and recharge but in reality a lot of people don't use their vacation days or even unwind on the the weekends at all.
This week, we're breaking down why that might not be a great idea in an episode of Work Life with Adam Grant.
Today's pick from the archives is all about the science of taking a break.
You'll learn how to prevent burnout and make the most of your time off to bounce back stronger than ever.
You can find Work Life with Adam Grant wherever you get your podcasts.
Learn more about the TED Audio Collective at audiocollective .ted .com.
Now onto the episode right after a quick break.
We'll be right back.
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It was just so alien that I thought, this is something I definitely need to implement and try out.
This is Shashank Nizam, founder and CEO of a small aviation consultancy, SimpliFlying.
A few years ago, he noticed that some of his team members were overworked.
I don't think they had taken the time off in the longest time possible.
We're going to try something new.
So he made an announcement.
Everyone's going to take a week off every seven weeks.
That's right. Mandatory vacation for everyone.
So we actually added a stick to it as well from day one.
Wait, so you punish people if they are working?
Yes. On their week off, we will punish you if you are working.
What happens to me?
How much money do I lose?
You lose a week's worth of pay.
Wow, that's very serious.
If you reply to any email, WhatsApp, or Slack message, internally or to a client, your pay will be docked for the week.
Shashank is on to something.
We're not just failing to take enough vacation.
Even when we do, we're failing to use our breaks effectively.
And the result is a workforce that feels like it never really gets a rest. It's time to reimagine our time off from the ground up.
I'm Adam Grant, and this is Work Life, my podcast with the TED Audio Collective.
I'm an organizational psychologist. I study how to make work not suck.
In this show, we explore how to unlock the potential in people and workplaces.
Today, time off from work and how we can remake breaks to actually get the rest we need.
We know that taking time away from work is vital to health, well -being, and performance.
But many people don't even use their paid vacation days.
When my mom retired after three decades as a teacher, she had almost an entire year of unused sick days.
She felt a responsibility to be there, and she was saving them for an emergency that never came.
You probably know people who do something similar.
Nearly half of Americans don't use all their paid vacations.
Some companies have tried to solve that problem by offering unlimited paid time off.
It sounds great in theory.
Instead of restricting freedom, treat people like adults and trust them to manage their own vacations.
Sign me up for as much vacation as I want.
But the research paints a more complicated picture.
On the one hand, unlimited vacations do convey trust and autonomy.
economy. On the other hand, people often end up taking fewer vacation days.
When no one knows how many days off are okay, people start hesitating to take them.
They're afraid to take more vacation than their peers.
They don't want to look like slackers.
Soon an arms race ensues, where everyone minimizes time off to prove their commitment.
It's a vicious cycle.
Shashank Nizam saw it happen at his startup, Simpliflying.
We started with an unlimited vacation policy and it worked very well for certain employees, let's say in Europe, who would definitely take that up.
But then for the other half of the company, which was not in Europe or North America, that was a bit of a challenge because some, like me, and some staff in Singapore or India, we just never took time off.
There was was an employee in spain who was giving us a lesson a master class in taking vacations he was off every week in april in the summer he's off for his birthday week and then he's definitely off for christmas to see his grandmother growing up in singapore this was unheard of singapore is polar opposite end of the siesta lifestyle in spain so this was new this was surprising but But I have to admit, I learned to respect him for holding his boundaries and showing the team why vacations are important to begin with.
That employee, Marco, was careful to set boundaries.
He didn't just take vacations.
He protected his nights and weekends.
Seeing this was transformative for Shashank.
And in the end, it allowed me to rethink my own paradigm.
time. Work is all about work, work, work, work, work, which I'm sure a lot of people listening, let's say, from Singapore or New York or even London would relate to, whereas Marco showed us this can be holistic.
Shashank learned about evidence that taking a sabbatical can reduce burnout.
When people are able to take extended leave from work, their stress declines and well -being rises, especially if they really detach from their jobs and leave their home countries.
Sometimes they also return with a better appreciation for work -life balance.
Shashank came across a designer who would shut down his company every seven years, forcing himself and his employees to take a year -long sabbatical.
But sabbaticals are rare outside academia in the military.
And I was not in a position, business -wise, personally, to take a whole year off at that time.
But that was the lightbulb moment.
He realized he could start mandating short, regular vacations.
Hey, even if we can't take one year off every seven years, what if we take a week off every seven weeks?
And that's where it struck, huh, okay, let's do this.
One week of vacation for seven weeks of work.
We typically think the longer the vacation, the better we'll feel.
But research suggests that the frequency of vacations is more important than the duration.
A number of studies have shown that taking a two -week vacation isn't any more restorative than going away for one week.
So if you want to reduce stress and boost well -being, instead of one long summer holiday, you're probably better off scheduling a few separate week -long vacations.
If we have these short bursts of vacation throughout the year, you're always recharged and happy at work.
It's like a rocket trying to leave the Earth's atmosphere with those little boosters at different stages rather than just trying to, you know, burn a huge, one big piece of rocket?
I thought it's a really interesting approach to offer because he was willing to really give everybody one week off every two months.
I think that's a lot.
This is Baiba Drayman.
She lives in Valencia, Spain, and she's a project director at Simpliflying.
She started as an intern in 2016, right when the new vacation policy was being implemented.
And she saw some resistance.
distance. They were like, what if I wanted to take more than one week off?
There were so many questions in the beginning.
So the first few weeks were just like, OK, let's just try all of my colleagues one by one.
They took that week off and they were really like pushed not to use any communication tools, not response messages, anything, anything.
And from what I saw, they were super happy.
One of them would start painting classes.
The other one, I think he went to a yoga retreat.
So the first vacations, these mandatory vacation times were like people really paid attention to them.
But it's also something new.
It's something different.
It was quite exciting.
But like many good experiments, it took some iterations to get it right.
Because SimpliFlying is a service provider, they learned that they needed to alert clients weeks in advance when their project manager would be off from work.
They also needed internal backup on projects.
So rather than just one person on a project, there would be two minimum.
And the vacations were staggered, so they weren't taking their time off at the same Think about your role.
If you took a week off every other month, who would cover for you?
And who would you cover for?
Shashank's team found that based on the nature of their work and the size of their company, they needed to make more adjustments.
adjustments every seven weeks was a bit too often for a small team like people were just in and out in and out and they were they were taking weeks off back to back from each other and that did not allow for transitions to happen within the team and that was a bigger challenge because we are we were not a very large company there were not a lot of systems and processes a lot of things were based off on our daily stand -up call which we did every morning for 30 minutes.
So imagine if, Adam, you are my manager, and you're off one week, and you come back, and I'm off that week.
There is no handover.
And then by the time it's the week after and someone else is off.
So Shashank changed the policy from every seven weeks to every eight weeks.
He set a rule that time off needed to be spaced out.
People on the same team couldn't take back -to -back weeks off.
And employees would stick to one week off at a time unless it was an extenuating circumstance.
So we made a few changes in that first iteration.
That was very, very important.
And then we learned from it.
And since then, the policy has stayed the same and it's been more than five years now we've been doing this.
In toxic cultures, time off is a reward earned by working to exhaustion.
Burnout is proof of dedication and vacations are required to recover.
In healthy cultures, time off is a right granted to everyone.
Well -being is a a top priority, and vacations are encouraged to rejuvenate.
I feel the purpose of this week off is to let your guard down, is to try something new, which is energy giving and not necessarily energy draining.
It is my responsibility to ensure our business survives.
Our business can only survive and thrive if the employees are themselves thriving.
And thriving needs to be holistic, which can only come if they are taking regular time off.
And I would rather have a happy employee working on a task that is slightly delayed than a completely exhausted employee delivering on time.
Let that sink in. It's better to have a happy employee working on a task that's slightly delayed than a completely exhausted employee delivering on time.
Shashank can back that up with data.
We did a statistical analysis analysis after our first few week offs and we learned that productivity creativity and employee happiness were all up significantly i i used to have this guy he loved sitting in numbers and being in excel and he comes back from his week off i don't know what he did or what he didn't do that week and here he is inclined brainstorm sessions giving the best ideas in the room and And I'm just looking at him.
People were coming back and participating in meetings like they had not previously.
And we see this uptick in general in employee happiness.
Like, you know, if I ask them, how happy are you after the week off?
You can see the smiles.
You can say, oh, you know, I'm an 8 out of 10 or 9 out of 10 today, rather than completely burnt out and exhausted.
Even if your workplace doesn't have mandatory vacation time, there's a lesson here for motivating people to take their vacations.
If you ask people why they don't use all their paid time off, most will tell you they feel worried about falling behind and guilty about leaving extra work for their colleagues.
In an experiment with thousands of employees at a professional services firm with my colleagues Reb Rebbeley and Grace Cormier, I found that asking people to reflect on the personal benefits of time off didn't motivate them to use more vacation days.
What made a difference was inviting them to consider how their time off would benefit others.
Just reflecting on how their family members and colleagues would appreciate them being well -rested and energized was enough to spur a 5 % increase in vacation time.
People started to realize that taking time off wasn't a selfish decision.
It was an investment in well -being that would have ripple effects on the people around them, too.
Those ripple effects were apparent to Shashank.
And here at Simply Flying, because different people are taking different times off at different times of the year, everyone is bringing back a different type of energy, a positively different type of energy, which is needed on a constant basis.
Someone just had a week off a week ago, and they come back fully rejuvenated and happy to continue to work.
And that affects the mood of every single person in the team, which I do not think can be achieved if you're taking two to three weeks off a year, or you're taking six weeks off in the middle of the year.
Baiba, the project director at SimpliFlying, has noticed another benefit of the mandatory vacation policy.
It gives people permission to take time off.
It's basically allowing myself to rest and not feel guilty about it.
Because you see the rest of your colleagues on Instagram sharing things from work or whatever, you are allowed to not care for a week.
It's lovely. It's nice.
Recommended. And she's learned to detach completely during her week off.
I will just directly switch off all my notifications From Slack, from Gmail and everything.
It can wait until Monday.
It's only a week. Do you think that this mandatory vacation policy, a week every, let's say, eight weeks, is that feasible in an organization of 100 people, 1 ,000 people, 100 ,000 people?
I truly believe this can be implemented by any company with less than 100 employees.
employees and you can implement this by staggering the week offs, ensuring that everyone has great visibility on who is off which week.
I need to know seven weeks out when you will be off.
So for example, for my staff, I know six months in advance when someone is going to be off.
The clients know months in advance and weeks in advance when someone will be off.
So first, transparency is key.
Second, you don't have to implement the model exactly like we are doing it.
Please iterate based based on your organization I find your perspective so refreshing except for one thing there's one thing I just vehemently disagree with I don't think this is limited to small organizations at all I think in a company of 100 ,000 people or an organization of a million people this is completely scalable number one, the bigger your organization the more people there are who have skills to backstop you or cover for you Number two, as a manager, you could implement this in your team.
And obviously, if you have interdependencies with other teams or with clients, you need to sort that out, right?
But within your span of control, this is something you could implement in your own world.
What I would say is this is an experiment worth running in any organization of any size.
Absolutely. And you will see impacts and results that I may not have seen.
I have seen certain results in my employees and in my company and larger organizations might see completely different results.
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Imagine your dream vacation.
Maybe you're on a beach with a cool drink in your hand.
Or perhaps you're looking at beautiful architecture in a foreign city.
The stress of your job and everyday life have melted away.
And now it's Monday and you're back to work.
Your dream vacation is over, and so is the lift you got from it.
The benefits of the vacation fade out quite quickly.
This is Sabine Sonnentag.
She's an organizational psychologist at the University of Mannheim in Germany, and she's one of the world's foremost experts on time off and recovery.
So about two weeks after the end of the vacation, People are again at the level of their well -being as they were before the vacation.
And this can be even stronger when they face heavy stressors when they come back from vacation.
So is it fair to say that a vacation is like a Band -Aid?
It might temporarily stop the bleeding, but it doesn't heal the wound?
It's enough just to stop the bleeding again and again.
again. Sabina has published landmark studies of job stress and how we recover from it.
So I'm very much interested in finding out what people can do to unwind, to recuperate, to feel better after a hard day.
I find it just the thing that keeps me alive and keeps me happy.
This is Dan Pelosi.
He has a background in marketing, but his real passion has always been cooking.
It's his favorite way to unwind.
I might have, like, not, you know, had a great day at the gym or, like, you know, jumped off my Peloton, like, 10 minutes early.
Those are not easy wins for me.
Making myself dinner or having my friends over, it's an easy win.
When you think about unwinding, cooking may not be the first thing that comes to mind.
It might sound a little vigorous for something that's supposed to help you relax.
Maybe watching TV, taking a bath, or reading a book sounds more like your speed.
And for good reason.
That's the familiar form of recovery, what we call relaxation.
But Sabina finds that there are actually two very different kinds of recovery activities, both of which can have benefits.
Relaxation is that what many people think when they think of recovery, unwinding, maybe doing nothing, just relaxing.
And so in terms of more physiological processes, it means a low sympathetic activation, so lower blood pressure, lower heart rates.
But that is not the only avenue to becoming recovered.
The second kind of recovery activity is what Sabina calls a mastery experience.
So that could be physical activities, physical exercise that is in most instances not immediately relaxing, but activating activities that are challenging.
So, for instance, learning a new language or having a hobby that really asks to step outside one's comfort zone.
So that can be experiences that are recovering as well.
Part of what I loved about this distinction is people have been giving me a hard time for failing to relax.
But I feel like everything I enjoy doing with my time and what recharges me also is, you know, is doing something that's mentally or physically stimulating.
So playing word games, you know, going on a run or a bike ride or playing a tennis match and actually feeling exhausted afterward physically, but feeling for some reason mentally refreshed.
How does this work?
There are several processes in place.
So one can be the physical exhaustion that results very often in a state of relaxation when the sort of undoing of the depletion kicks in.
In other words, when you complete a fun challenge, you feel joyfully exhausted.
Maybe you've felt this when doing a crossword puzzle or an art project.
Part of the benefit of mastery activities is a sense of progress and confidence, but they also help us detach from work -related thoughts.
So these really challenging activities ask us for focusing and putting our attention on a very specific topic, a specific thing, activity, could be a specific person.
And therefore, our thoughts are not distracted, but really focused.
And that can provide some aspect of recovery.
I think you're helping me justify my preference for mastery over relaxation.
Yeah, happy to do so.
Take cooking. Your mind doesn't wander to your job because you're focused on the recipe.
You're immersed in preparing the ingredients and assembling the dish, maybe even getting creative and adding your own flair, which Dan has enjoyed doing for a long time.
I mean, it started day one.
I was born into an Italian -American and Portuguese -American family.
So it was sort of my birthright.
My mother tells stories of having me on the counter as a baby, sort of, you know, hanging out with her while she cooked.
And I would just sort of happily be there.
And then as I grew, I would be helping her cook.
And I was sort of the official taste tester.
And I remember my grandfather saying, do you think the marinara is done?
And I would always say no, because I didn't want to stop tasting it.
Each time he experiments with a recipe, he gains a skill and accomplishes something new.
That expands his sense of mastery.
Being in the kitchen and cooking is like kind of an easy win.
Like I think that's why it's relaxing to me.
Like I'm pretty much like never bummed out or disappointed with what I think because I'm like, this is like a fun space for me.
It's like a safe space.
The wins are easy for me in the kitchen.
And for me, it's never about the result.
Like what do I learn from the result?
I think it's similar to why so many people choose a game like Wordle.
as kind of their mini mastery hobby?
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Mine just results in something edible.
So how do you know whether to aim for relaxation or mastery?
Go for where the greatest need is and or explore doing this, one of the experiences or the others.
If we look in terms of outcomes, I mean, they have many overlapping consequences, but the most striking difference is that relaxation results more in positive, effective states.
They are calm, they are quiet, they are serene, whereas mastery results in more activated, positive states.
So being excited, being alert, being active, and so on.
And so, therefore, in the evening, it could sometimes be better to strive for relaxation because that should help to sleep better.
Whereas in the morning, if it's possible, it's better to do something that stimulates and that results in positive affective states and not necessarily in calmness and serenity.
Sabina's research applies not only to evenings and weekends, but also to full -blown vacations.
Depending on the kind of relief you need, you might opt for a relaxing beach vacation or a mountain climbing expedition and feel rejuvenated either way.
Of course, it can be hard to find time during the work week for full recovery.
So some researchers recommend treating weekends like vacations.
Dan remembers one particular weekend like that.
After a few stressful weeks, he planned a little vacation with his friends out to Fire Island in New York.
But instead of lounging by the pool or dipping in the ocean, Dan found himself relaxing by going to the kitchen.
I was at probably my peak of stress and being overworked.
And it's just so beautiful.
And getting into my groove and handling beautiful produce, firing the grill, making a beautiful meal, it just is the thing that brings me back to life.
It feels like I have air around my thoughts, like I have that space.
I have room to sort of breathe in my mind so I can really focus on that task in front of me.
And so therapeutic because I'm focused on one singular task and I'm really driven by the payoff, which is putting the food on the table, saying let's eat and letting everyone dive in.
And that to me is just the best. When COVID hit, Dan's go -to method of relaxing resulted in something unexpected.
expected. I started just basically creating teachable content on my Instagram and suddenly the followers just sort of started flowing in.
And every day I was just like, here's how you make tuna.
Here's how I make pizza.
Like here's the five things I keep on my counter.
Here's what's in my pantry.
And that allowed me to really take off and realize like, wow, this weekend hobby is actually something that I can use to help people during this global pandemic.
And then from there, It's just been sort of like the first year I worked my job at Ann Taylor at the brands that I was working at and I built Grossi Pelosi and it was the hardest I've ever worked in my whole life but it was the most joyful amazing thing and it kind of got me through the pandemic.
He ended up gaining so much mastery in cooking that he left the marketing world behind.
He's now a full -time recipe creator.
As Grossi Pelosi he's one of Instagram's most beloved recipe developers and and lifestyle creators.
He's a regular on Good Morning America and he has a new cookbook called Let's Eat.
Dan's idea of relaxing has brought his fans a lot of joy.
And now that cooking has become his job, he might need a new mastery activity to recuperate.
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Whichever hobbies energize you, we need to reimagine our workplaces to make space for them.
I hate it when leaders say, I hope you get to recharge.
Breaks shouldn't be a time to recharge.
They should be a time to rejoice.
If work is exhausting people to the point that they're using their time off to recover, you might have a burnout culture.
A healthy organization doesn't leave people drained in the first place.
Bad bosses see breaks as a lack of dedication to work.
Good bosses recognize breaks as a source of energy for work, so they're happy to grant time off.
But great bosses see breaks as a right, not a reward. They care about your life beyond work.
So they insist on time off.
I'm my own boss. So what did I do during a recent long weekend?
I put the finishing touches on this episode.
Do what I say, not what I do.
But not long before that, I took our teenager to a conference, and she got to plan a few days of vacation in Norway.
We hiked up a mountain overlooking a fjord and went whitewater rafting.
Out of the five whitewater levels, she picked class four.
she was all about mastery as for me and you were the only one who fell out next week on work life and so I would rather people learn how to effectively hack a bureaucracy so they don't actually make the bureaucracy worse This episode was produced by Courtney Guarino. Our team includes Daphne Chen, Constanza Gallardo, Dan O'Donnell, Greta Cohn, Grace Rubenstein, Daniela Balarezo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quinn, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Heilash.
Our fact checker is Paul Durbin.
Our show is mixed by Ben Shano. Original music by Hans Dale -Sue and Alison Leighton Brown.
Special thanks to our sponsors, UKG and Destination Canada.
For their research, gratitude to the following lead authors.
On paid time off and vacations, Jessica DeBloom, Sabina Gertz, Jana Kuhnl, Charlotte Fritz, and Cassie Mogilner -Jones.
On recovery, Bonnie Hayden -Chang and Christina Guthier.
And on sabbaticals and extended leaves, Dalia Etzian, Kira Shabrum, Orinete Davidson, Dove Eden, and DJ Dadana.
The laughing. The laughing is bad?
That's okay. It's funny.
No, because it sounds fake because I know what your laugh sounds like.
It's usually more pronounced like, oh.
Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad.
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It's so fun to shop in the store and online and the products are just too good.
No regrets ever. For example one of my favorite beauty brands is Makeup By Mario who just launched his new lip gloss that I absolutely love.
So the next time you're in the market for great beauty shop all the hottest products and brands only at Sephora.
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