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in -laws. This week we're sharing an episode from Fixable, where hosts and business leaders Ann Morris and Francis Frey help a frustrated listener work through disagreements in her family business.
They offer some helpful tips on how to better navigate personal relationships in order to overcome organizational problems. Whatever you're dealing with at work, Fixable is there to help offering actionable insights to create meaningful change in your life and Listen to Fixable wherever you get your podcasts.
And if you have a problem you want fixed, call their hotline at 234 Fixable.
That's 234 -349 -2253 to leave Anne and Francis a voicemail with your workplace problem.
Learn more about the TED audio collective at audiocollective .ted .com.
Now onto the episode.
so I'll see you after.
Hello everyone. Welcome back to Fixable from the TED audio collective.
I'm your host, Ann Morris.
I'm a company builder and leadership coach. And I'm your co -host Frances Frey.
I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Ann's wife.
Frances on today's show, we are talking to a caller who goes to work every day with her husband.
Kind of like you and me, baby.
I get asked so often, you know, with like a conspiratorial whisper, how do you do it?
The more they say, I could never do it.
You know, what's going on?
They're always asking in such a puzzling way.
So it'll be a pleasure to talk to a fellow traveler who has also walking down this beautiful path.
I know. So she is navigating the tricky territory of, yes, working with her husband, but also working inside a family business that includes multiple family relationships here.
So siblings, parent -child, in -laws, and so it's a little bit of a harder climb than what you and I have. So, my guess is that the family dynamics are going to be a bigger deal than the spousal dynamics.
That's my suspicion as well.
So let's listen to the voicemail.
Hi Anne and Frances.
After being in business for more than 35 years in manufacturing, the small family business my husband and I work for is faced with a pivotal decision.
Turn the business around or sell, not only are we dealing with a generational divide between the owners, who also happen to be my in -laws, but also changes in automation, personal spending, and a lot more.
My husband and I wear a lot of hats trying to keep the business evolving.
We are tired and want change.
How do we work through the challenges of evolving an old business model impacted by our family dynamics and entitlement?
Oh yeah, I mean the extended family dynamic — that's very tricky.
The Spousal Dynamics — we can get that to work.
Yeah, and if we can repurpose some of that energy that's going towards managing family dynamics and just put a fraction of it back on building this business, which I think has some exciting possibility to it, then that's going to be transformation for her experience of work.
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Welcome to Fixable.
We're gonna call you Lily.
You are the first caller on our show who is also here to talk about your spouse, who we're gonna call Steven.
As a couple, we are thrilled to get into with you.
We're really excited to chat and connect and gain some insights or perspective on some of the things we're navigating right now.
So I'd love to start by just getting to know you in this situation a little better.
So talk to me about marrying into this family.
So through the years of being married, I ended up staying at home.
And then once my kids became teenagers, I said, I got to get back to work.
I need something to do.
But yet every single day we were talking about the ins and outs of this family business.
And - You and Steven.
Yes. So he said, why don't you come work for us?
And so it's a beautiful relationship where we can have the flexibility to allow me still to take care of the kids and still be at home but also help him and the business as much as I can.
The con to that situation is that there are times where he's like, enough, we're at home, it's a Sunday, I don't want to talk about work, leave me alone because it's just always He's on my mind and he's there and it's like, I just want to go, go, go.
But I think because we do work so well together that it's like inspiring and motivates you and it's like, what else can we do?
And when we get this positive feedback from employees about something that we both took initiative and did like this feels good.
Or when we are connecting with vendors and customers in ways that we've never done before.
It's so much gratification.
I love that. And maybe that's why I don't look at working elsewhere, because I enjoy working with him so much. Beautiful.
So set the scene for us a little bit.
So this is a small manufacturing business.
Yes. And so my in -laws bought the business approximately 35 years ago.
They have relocated, they have expanded, built the building, and a lot has happened.
So we had a meeting just recently, And, um, I think the numbers don't lie.
And the meeting was asking us what our intentions were.
Did we want to buy the business?
And it was kind of a not take it or leave it situation, but like either you kids all need to like step up and like, we have to really make 2025 matter, or we're going to be in a position where we potentially have to sell.
We're at a crossroads right now with the business.
I think the problems that we've encountered and some that are out of our hands that a lot of businesses are struggling with coming out of the pandemic, working in manufacturing with automation and technology changes, we are fatigued at trying to influence some positive change.
You reached out to us for help, which we were thrilled to receive your call.
So, what are you hoping to get out of today's conversation?
Yeah, so looking at sales, there's a dramatic decline, and so trying to find new avenues and new venues, I'm trying to influence investment tapping into some of new opportunities, let's say, or maybe even from an operations perspective, changing how we're doing things internally so that we can deliver on time and offer the basic customer service that customers are demanding now more than ever.
My father -in -law, he's part of the Old Boys Network in that if we go to a local trade show that I can just go walk the floor, cost me nothing.
I come back that day, and he's like, well, do you have an order?
And the reality is, is convincing him that it takes time to network and to build trust and that we have to invest in our marketing efforts, whether that's improving our website or doing very like subtle things even, is that the expectation is so great.
And this is kind of that shift in a generational business model that we're struggling with.
Is it fair to say that you are optimistic about the prospects for the business with the kinds of changes that you just articulated?
I'm optimistic, I think, if I can get everybody on board, and I think there is a frustrated sentiment between some of the family members.
And that's where we've tried to look at, OK, it doesn't cost us any money to clean and organize and try to be more efficient in a lot of ways, right.
We have to get these processes in order before we spend tons of money, let's say, on an ERP system or new equipment.
We have to kind of reel it back and start there.
And so sometimes we get a lot of pushback like we're a machine shop.
We don't need to be clean.
Why do we need to be clean?
And I say, well, if I'm bringing a customer in here that works in defense or in the medical industry, this place needs to be as pristine as possible.
And so I am optimistic that change is possible.
And it's just a matter I think of influencing the stakeholders to shift their mindset.
Beautiful. If we are wildly successful in this conversation today, what is different for you?
Oh, gosh, that's a loaded question.
I think just job security would be really great.
And I know that if this were to go away, the impact that this would have on the business and the family would be so detrimental to our whole family unit.
And not to mention our 20 employees that depend on us.
I look at these people every day and the things that they tell me, and we had an employee, she, we had a tornado that came through our state two years ago.
And it hit her area really, really hard. And I messaged her that Saturday.
And I said, you take as much time as you need.
You let us know how we can support you.
And she messaged me back.
And she was like, I can't tell you how much that means to me.
My prior employer would have said, why aren't you coming to work?
Like when will you be at work?
What do you mean you need time off?
She didn't end up having water for, like, 10 days and electricity.
And the livelihood of these people matter as much as my own.
that I'd just like to see that job security for all of us.
And so best case scenario for you is a plan to build this business into a thriving going concern.
Yes. Rather than, than sell it?
Yes, correct. Let's say the finances were not a constraint, like can you see your way through the strategy of how to grow demand?
Yes, I'd love to be attending trade shows, I'd love to be getting the marketing material a hundred percent up to date to put that lipstick on a pig and get out there.
But the costs of some of those things are very high.
And so that's again, where we've creatively tried to seek out some of these manufacturing platforms that don't cost us anything or very nominal investment.
So when we connect with the right businesses, the opportunity is there, but I also feel operationally, we worked so hard, and this is where we have some issues with some of the employees that as far as organization and getting orders out the door, I can't grow the business if I don't have cooperation to meet the customer needs and demands.
So, that's where I've tried to work on fixing some of the operational deficiencies so that we can continue to retain and grow.
Yeah. So, this is a wonderful drama.
I can see it in It's Shakespearean.
It's Shakespearean.
So, you have the in -laws who are, grew up and created the business and had the business flourish under a different time and under a different operating system.
You're the next generation, you see that operating system that they used outdated and it wouldn't work today, but they still hold on to it.
And so the natural thing, the parts of the story that I love is they're essentially like, then you go do it your way, which is exactly the right thing to say.
Like you buy the company and then you can put in your own operating system.
So in many ways that feels like the very natural progression of their money, their decision rights, your money, your decision rights.
I'm even encouraged that they would like that to happen.
So that's, I think at the first level, the second level is you appear to me to be optimistic that you could fix the internal workings of the company and you could go out there and cultivate demand.
So I don't know if your in -laws would be employees after you buy the company, actually, would they be employees after you buy the company?
I think they would like to.
I think that would be probably a part of their terms. I think our concern is with that, if they remain that involved, whether it comes with a paycheck or otherwise, it's going to be challenging to move forward. So we compare it to an episode of Arrested Development meets Succession, you know, we have - Meets - There's a lot of dynamics here, right?
Yeah. But the clarity through it is, your parents, I mean, in the Succession thing, it was cause the guy didn't wanna let go.
Your parents are willing to let go, you're, and it doesn't sound - I think they have to let go.
They're either handing it over to the next generation or handing it over to someone else.
A buyer who's going to come in with strategically less confidence, less optimism and a low, bold number because any buyer is going to suss it out.
So, to me, it's about making a deal.
And the deal has to have salary -slash -money that your parents take out.
And my advice is to figure out what you need those to optimally be.
And then you're in a position to negotiate.
But you should figure out, imagine you had magic dust. What do you want it to be?
If you design what you optimally need it, then you'll know where your walkaway numbers are.
But I wouldn't walk away prematurely because to Ann's point, as soon as they start talking to other buyers and they realize they're not going to get nearly as much money as they thought.
And you might be a far more attractive alternative.
So I don't want you to negotiate against yourself.
I want you to figure out what would it take for you to buy the company and design that and then make that discussable.
And if you can't get that, then you won't buy the company.
Now separate thing, you two should definitely work together and go to the same.
And we can talk about what you should do with all of your awesome creativity and can do spirit.
This is not the only playground for you to go and do there.
But I think you want to figure out what is your, what is the deal you're willing to strike for this?
I want to pull back for a second, on just a thread that Frances started, because I want to really underline this.
Here's to me a very cool headline in this story.
You love building a business, and you love working with your husband.
Like, however this, like, convoluted way you arrived at these two things, those are amazing conclusions to have reached at this point in your lives and in your kids' lives where both of those things are possible.
Do you feel that? Like, are those statements that resonate as true for you?
I think you're going to make me a little emotional because I hadn't really ever put that all together.
And so when you put it in those terms, yeah, it's a really nice set of circumstances.
It's, I'm very fortunate and I feel that way.
And I think that's why there are days where I'm like I'm done with this.
I'm tired. But then there's other days where that inner feeling and gut is I do this for my husband when I see how tired he is, or there's things that he can't do.
I'm like, I'll do it.
Give it to me. We'll figure it out, you know?
So, the way that you said that is so beautiful.
You present to me as a natural entrepreneur, like that moment where you're describing where your husband is finally like this and I, honey, I can't talk about this company anymore.
It's Sunday afternoon, the football's on.
You know, but that your mind is constantly thinking about how do I find leverage here?
How do I solve a problem?
How do I not spend any money?
those are the signals and underlying kind of mindsets of people who succeed in building businesses like this.
So to me, that's a very strong and exciting signal.
And then it's clear that you plus Steven is like one plus one equals some number bigger than two, which is really the test of whether these partnerships are going to work.
I suspect you make each other better in this operating environment.
So that's very exciting to me.
And so I think you have a ton of leverage, right?
To say we have to sell within the year when like no work has been done to package it up, that is a very short timeline, right?
Really the only viable solution is for the next generation to step up.
So I think what you're saying makes so much sense And there are conversations that we've had for, not just in this moment, we've had this for years about the spending and the responsibility with cashflow.
But so may I step in here?
Those conversations are not the conversations I think you need to have because what you're doing is trying to influence them as owners with decision rights.
You got to stop that.
OK. Don't try to get them to change.
You have 35 years of information about how these guys are going to run a business.
It's not changing. So I think we just let go of all of that.
Radical acceptance of that.
What you're going to talk about is if we buy the company, by the way, then they no longer have access to the checking accounts and things like that.
They will receive only the money that you give them, and that will be predetermined and it will be part of the deal.
So I think the two most important, there's three important deal parameters.
What are you going to pay for the business and then how are you going to pay it?
Are the parents' employees in an ongoing way, or are they simply receiving distributions?
Like right now, you see doing this or some horrible other big bureaucratic company, that's not your next job.
I promise you. Oh my goodness, you too are going to be working on a startup.
So I need you to negotiate the purchase of this company as if you have other great alternatives.
And that other great alternative is not part of a big, stodgy, bureaucratic mess.
It's some scrappy awesomeness where you can get rewarded for thinking about it on Saturdays and Sundays, and you're really a part of it.
Yeah, and maybe it's a services business, not a manufacturing business.
So it's asset light, and you guys are super scrappy, and you are just helping people make connections.
You're solving some problem in this industry that you've gotten to know so intimately as a couple between the two of you.
But I think this is a really important point that I want to underscore.
This beautiful insight you have that you love to build businesses and you love to work together.
And oh, by the way, you love freedom and agency, right?
For all kinds of reasons.
Yeah, so you can be a fucking awesome mom, which you clearly are.
But also, because it is important to you on a bunch of levels to live the life that you want to live.
All of those things are possible outside of this company as well, maybe even more possible, which is why it's so important to really try on these alternatives.
You hit something on the head, and I think they recognize the value of my husband.
That without him here, it would be very problematic to continue in any capacity, whether it's, you know, us or a buyer.
I think, by the end of 2025, you will both get other jobs if the decision rights and ownership structure of the company isn't changed.
And that's the way I would be approaching it.
And you can say to them, look, we're going to give you 2025 to work out a deal with us.
And here are the parameters that matter to us.
And we totally understand if you can't do it.
It's your business.
It's your decision rights.
We're just telling you what our parameters are and we will walk away happy if we don't reach it.
It's totally fine if we don't.
Anne often calls this sexy indifference.
Yeah, get to the point of sexy indifference.
And one tactic here might be to bring in a banker who can be the messenger, this is what it's going to take to package the business and this is what we think you could get for it if we can find a buyer.
This is not a fast -moving market.
So, if we can find a buyer, this is what I think the price is and this is the changes you would have to make over the next year to make this even a viable purchase.
And so you get some third party data and you can have someone else from the outside come in and price it, and say, okay, well, here's our offer, see if you can go get a better one.
And here are our terms. The liberty I want you to feel is you are no longer going to push the rock up the hill of trying to influence your in -laws.
It will not work. That odyssey is over.
That is over. That's over now.
And now you're talking about a plan for the next six to 12 months, which is find another buyer, we'll get our own offer to you.
Like let's package this up, you're selling it to us or you're selling it to someone else, so let's go, let's go.
If we have to clean it, like what's the minimum viable that we have to do to make this sellable.
But let's figure out what the real economics of the business are, let's make the basic changes and then let's come up with what a fair price would be.
Then you can start to weigh your options But let's weigh them with some expansive optimism here that this is not the only place you can go to get - And get agency.
Get agency and freedom and the chance to also do these other things that are critical to your life, like raise these teenagers and work with your husband and build something.
Like all of those things are also possible outside the four walls of this company.
Yeah, no. It's so much - the third party piece of this is huge because I think one of the dynamics we struggle with is like, you know, I'm dad, like what I say goes.
It's harder to kind of separate that.
There are no objective parties in the room.
Everyone is conflicted.
Everyone's conflicted financially, everyone's conflicted emotionally.
You gotta bring in some neutral third party to get you through again, we're talking about the next 6 to 12 months.
I want your in -laws to feel you're walking away because right now they feel you as captive and they're going to treat you differently.
But as soon as they feel you are one foot in and one foot out, I promise you everything is going to start to feel different.
Yeah, he has been told he's just an employee and that still is one of those comments.
And so we're going to talk about he's so much bigger than a boy in this situation.
And I think what you're saying is, by the end of 2025, I'm either gonna be an owner or not an employee.
How might I be helpful to you during 2025?
That's what I would say to the parents.
We're gonna give you a year for us to try to figure out if we're gonna buy it or we're leaving.
That's your decision, right?
Oh, this feels like a Dr. Laura episode, doesn't it?
Like, it's so, so much drama, so many dynamics.
It's a lot. But I mean, we just had a meeting this week because I said, we got to talk about 2025.
We have to start planning some goals.
We have to brainstorm.
We have to be forward thinking versus this month -to -month existence.
Yeah. But you're no longer trying to influence the behavior of anyone else.
Those are your decision rights.
How do you want to behave?
And then how do you communicate that to people who will be impacted by your decisions?
But this is not a company meeting about goals.
This isn't a brainstorming session.
No! No, I don't think you want to participate in those anymore.
I think what you want to do is say you're deciding whether or not you're going to buy the company or whether or not you're going to leave the company, and then you can also leave the ball in their court sometimes, because if nothing happens, the default is you're leaving.
Yeah. Yeah. And you're going to be good.
You know, you're going to be a good daughter -in -law and you're going to be a good son, and if That means they wanna package the company up for the next 12 months and see what they can get for it.
You'll help them. You'll help them.
Yeah, you're delighted.
You're delighted. Get it, tiger.
So I feel very validated that this thought that we could change an influence, which has not happened, is something that we have to stop doing.
And without everybody knowing who these characters are, I think that is a big hurdle for us that we have to accept and we have to approach differently.
And I think for a long time, we took it upon ourselves to think it's our delivery.
You know, we have to sell it.
We have to change our perspective on things to try to get them to side with us or understand it differently.
First of all, you tried.
You tried. In good faith, you tried.
Have the peace to know that that was plan A, and you tried to execute in very good faith.
Yeah. And I don't think that's something that we've really considered.
We just kind of do, versus, really, okay, if we're going to continue working in these capacities, what does that look like, especially approaching the new year?
It's a good time for us to revisit and say, okay, what do we want our role to be like?
We want security for the entire family, but not at the expense of the family.
So, I appreciate and love the insight to think about the next year a little differently.
I'm a very good guesser, and I don't know if you're going to buy the company or leave the company.
So, to me, it's like truly 50 -50.
Like, I usually have a very good instinct, and what I hope to you is that you get to to have an sexy indifference by you not knowing either.
And so when you talk to them as if both of those are perfectly legitimate outcomes, a lot of good things will happen.
Thank you so much. I started to feel a little emotional because you made me see some things a lot differently than I have when it comes to my marriage and my family and what our future looks like together and appreciate the past in spite of so many hurdles, whether it be with family or business or otherwise.
So I'm really grateful for the time to have these conversations.
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Oh, Frances. I have to say, I'm feeling some optimism for Lili.
I am too. And this company.
And having the clarity of, look here are the terms of engagement.
I can either do this or that?
It's so clarifying for ourselves and it's so clarifying for other people to do it.
Because otherwise we'll just replay the family dynamic script of, I say this, you say that, it's like going to a perpetual Thanksgiving dinner.
I mean, generationally, there's going to be a difference, and let's start from the point where we just radically accept that Yeah.
... as where we are.
And it's not clear to me that this isn't good advice for all of us.
When we think about what we want people to take away from this episode.
So I would put that on the list, that just the power of radical acceptance.
What else is on your list?
I know of so many magnificent family businesses, in fact, some of the most well -born organizations, but there is so much intentionality by everyone to understand that the business is this other, this thing that we all contribute to.
It's this thing outside of us that we all respect and honor, and we want to do things to keep it going.
I want to underscore that point, because you have colleagues that only study family businesses.
And they are like my happiest colleagues.
They are your happiest colleagues.
Family is not a synonym for dysfunction, but you do have to bring deep intention to parts of the business.
Family businesses, I might get this wrong, but it's something like 50 % of all businesses.
It's an astonishing number.
And there's some myths about family businesses that it starts, it goes to the next generation.
Then it gets ruined by the third generation.
But what I find amazing are the ones that get stronger with every generation.
And so, you know, my favorite family business in the world and it's Sewell Automotive.
Oh yes. And they're car distributors in Texas and they are creating communities.
here's my favorite fun fact about Soole, when 9 -11 — when the tragedy of 9 -11 happened, people went to the dealerships just because they wanted to be in community with other people and that felt like the right place to go.
That's the power of family businesses.
And it's one of the great leverages for wealth and prosperity and humanity and dignity in the world.
And scaling your values and worldviews.
Yeah, I mean, it's such a beautiful example.
I, if that's the measure, I want Sewell to be a worldwide organization, could I, because I think we should scale their values to the planet, yeah.
Two more thoughts I just want to offer.
One, I got in touch with how important...
just a reminder, because you and I spend a disproportionate amount of time with big companies, just a reminder of how important small businesses are, not just to the economy, but to every single person who shows up, everyone who builds them, the opportunity to embed these organizations with your own values.
I mean, they really have an outsized role in the health and wellbeing of a society.
And to me, it was energizing to see that come to life.
I agree completely.
And then the other one is that the mom's on your payroll may be your best workers.
And that if you can give them some flexibility and agency to craft the how of the work, you can still define the what, but you will get back in terms of loyalty and creativity.
And I don't know that she would use the word passion, but that's how it presented in terms of solving problems for this business.
She presented so much as, Like, she's willing to gnaw off a limb to get things done.
And she wants to be able to go to the soccer game.
If you provide the flexibility to go to the soccer game, you will get such an outsized return.
So you're right, like, the employee management system for moms, I still, to this day, consider that to be the greatest one, because they know what it's like to not have flexibility and they'll do anything for it.
Yeah. And I speak Midwestern.
I grew up in the Midwest. And so for anyone listening, that's fucking Midwestern passion right there.
You might not have heard it, but I did.
Thank you our listeners for another wonderful season in year.
We have had such a great time making this show with you and solving problems together.
We have loved it and we have learned so much along the way and we couldn't be more grateful.
Yes. My heart is full that we get to do this and that we get to be Thomas the Train Useful engines as we're doing it.
And of course, we are coming back with more episodes in late January.
We're going to have some great stuff in the interim from podcasts that we love.
So keep showing up on Monday morning, we will have some great content for you.
And keep sending us your workplace issues and let us know if you'd like to come on the show and workshop them together with us.
If you want to be on Fixable, please call us at 234 -FIXABLE.
That's two three four, three four nine, two two five three, or email us at fixable at Ted dot com.
Fixable is brought to you by the TED audio collective and Pushkin Industries.
It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances Fry.
This episode was produced by Rahima Nasser from Pushkin Industries.
Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Ban Ban Chang, Daniella Ballarresso, and Roxanne Hylash.
Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard. track your progress, and get stronger.
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