Ted Audio Collective Hey Ted Talks Daily listeners, I'm Elise Hugh.
Today we have an episode of another podcast from the Ted Audio Collective handpicked by us for you.
We all wonder if we're doing things right.
Do I have enough friends?
Should it take me this long to get over my ex?
Should I move or stay where I am?
Am I normal is here to answer those burning questions.
Host Mona Chalabi is an endlessly curious data journalist and she's ready to dive into the numbers.
Mona is also consulting experts, strangers and even her mom to fill in the gaps.
The answers might surprise you and make you ask does normal even exist?
To find out if you're normal, find Am I Normal wherever you get your podcasts.
Now on to the episode right after a quick break.
The closest thing I have to a fun day out these days is going to look at curtain fabric with my mum.
I am Mona's mum, I used to be a gynecologist and then I switched into family practice or general practice.
I worked for Mona just over 20 years and I retired six years ago and then enjoying my day.
Okay I think all you needed to give was just your name for that one but that's okay.
I do enjoy her company.
The thing is though, I'm not gonna go to the bar with her after a rough day but since the friends I used to go to the bar with and now washing baby's bums at tequila time, I was left with my mum and so I thought I may as well ask her how mother had changed her friendships.
Did my baby bum ever get in the way of her having a good time?
What advice did she have for me about navigating old friendships with new mums?
I think you have to accept it that's the real life.
She has had priorities her husband and her children, not you.
Growing up I don't remember you or dad having any friends.
Literally people came to the house to visit us for a meal maybe once a year.
We didn't have that many friends.
When I got married I felt I have different coverage meant when I started working I come home tired.
I want to look after my family.
I was trying to enjoy you and your sister as much as I can.
You know the friends that kind of disappeared a little bit while they had kids while you had kids?
Did you feel like those friendships ever came back when me and my sister got older?
Yeah some of them but I changed when I have my children.
You become my world.
You don't feel any regret or sadness about any of your friendships that disappeared?
No no no no no because those who disappeared they weren't good friends.
The thing is friend is a big big huge blanket to cover so much.
It's like carrying a fruit basket or apple basket with you.
You know it was put apple in it and you're happy to carry it all the way but then every time you open it because you need to have one the good ones are no longer good and so on.
It's just you drop some of them on your way to wherever you're going.
This is another one of my mom's analogies and I don't know if I'm into it but let's just go with it for a second.
Maybe I have just dropped too many friends out of my basket.
Or maybe my friends dropped me out of their baskets and he makes it into this weird fruit basket thing anyway.
I put this to evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar.
Can you define what a friend is for me?
After 25 years trying to figure this out I'm not sure I'm any nearer to a clear definition.
I think in the end it's about relationships in general.
Those relationships can be people you regularly interact with or have positive feelings for.
I mean ideally it's both and the more you interact with them or the more positive your feelings the closer the friendship.
According to Dunbar our apple basket of relationships has an average of 150 people in it.
This 150 figure is referred to as Dunbar's number.
Now it might seem high but what Dunbar is looking at is the number of relationships the brain can handle at one time.
This includes family, best friends, acquaintances, workmates, even the bartender you know by name.
So they're friends of a wide range of types or as my mum calls it a big blanket.
Dunbar has studied social relationships since the 70s first in primates then in humans.
He developed the number while studying primates social networks and that was when he noticed that the size of those social groups was relative to the size of the primates brains.
And so I just out of kind of idle curiosities I thought well what happens if we stick human brains into this equation and when we did that it gave this figure of 150 and that number then just kept turning up all over the place.
The figure popped up in surprising places offices communes militaries even Christmas card lists.
150 is the estimated size of neolithic farming villages in the middle east and 11th century Britain.
The number of people that you have these kind of relationships of obligation and reciprocity that have a historical depth at the population level 150 is very very consistent.
Dunbar says 150 for simplicity but really it's a range between 100 and 250 depending on several factors.
One is obviously personality so introverts prefer to have fewer friends they probably sort of hover around the 100 to 150 mark.
If we think of time as our currency we all have the same amount of it but it's how we spend it that varies and introverts they just prefer to kind of ladle that on thick on a few friends to make sure they're there when they need them.
Whereas extroverts they tend to spread their social capital more thinly in order to have a larger number of friendships they trade on the fact that if somebody stands them up they just try somebody else.
Another factor is age.
The size of personal social networks over the lifespan increases as you grow through childhood it hits a peak somewhere in the late teens early 20s at something approaching about 250 and then from about the 30s surprisingly coinciding with reproduction it drops to about 150 after which it remains very
stable. And that's exactly what happened to me.
My friends started having babies and started disappearing or actually Dumbo would say they started shifting.
You see within that 100 to 250 friend range there are layers or concentric circles.
The first layer is about 1 .5 people that often represents your parents or your romantic partner.
Then the next layer out is somewhere around about five we think of those as your intimate friends the next layer out is 15 those you might think of as best friends and this is a layer 50 good friends layer 150 just friends a layer at 500 which we think of as acquaintances.
50 good friends five zero that feels like a whole lot of people and I think this is the tier where I'm having the most trouble.
And the research shows that you need to invest around 200 hours over a three month period to turn a just friend into one of those good friends.
Even if it is quicker to turn someone that you already know back into being a good friend well if Dunbar's 50 number is right that is still a whole lot of time maintaining friendships and I just don't know if I have that kind of time.
I feel like I'm kind of stuck between a rock and hard place here.
The more I think about it part of the problem here might be that some of the people who were once part of that super close friend group maybe I just didn't do enough to keep them there.
Certainly your research shows very clearly that if you fail to maintain that level of investment friendships start to die slowly but surely six months after you've not contacted them they will have dropped down from being a good friend to maybe just a friend and if it carries on for a couple of years
they will end up as an acquaintance.
But we haven't been meeting in person because of the pandemic so does that mean that everyone's friendships are suffering right now?
The short answer is yes.
Oh god. But what about all the zoom calls and my incessant meme sharing during lockdown?
Does this mean that all of my DMs were in vain?
Digital media and that even includes the telephone are really just a sticking plaster.
By the way a plaster is a band -aid.
They seem to slow down the rate of decay but they're not going to stop the inevitable happening.
So once in a while you just have to meet up again and give each other a hug.
That sort of resets the relationship if you like.
And this is what I'm afraid of.
Even though we can see each other in real life I worry that too much time has passed for my London friends and I to be able to reset our relationships.
But I have to say there is something about this whole Dunbar number thing that just doesn't feel right to me.
Having only five super close friends in my top tier feels way too few and 50 just good friends in the lower tier feels like way too many.
For me at least it feels like I never had a life that really looked like the one he describes here.
And that's even when I was feeling satisfied with my friendships.
Maybe I was just never normal to begin with.
Or maybe I'm misremembering my pre -covid life.
To find out I took out the old colouring pencils and decided to plot my friends.
We learned from Professor Dunbar that as humans we can successfully maintain around 150 friends.
Those friends fall into different layers depending on how close they are.
So I wanted to see where my friends fall and if you'd like you can try this along with me.
Grabbing some paper and some coloured pens.
I am going to draw a smallish circle about the size of my fist.
And then one just like a piece.
So I drew a circle that represented my inner most friends and put in their initials and then there was the next circle out some more initials and the next circle out beyond that.
I'm actually going to write my sister down.
Who else? In touch with regularly.
God there's so few people in New York.
Most of them where else where?
I'm just going to move on to the next category because I am struggling a little bit.
So the next. It feels so shocking to me that some people didn't immediately come to mind when I love them so deeply.
In fact I had to go into my phone to remind myself of the people I've been texting recently.
Funny that I am revising occasionally my innermost circle you would have thought those are the people that it's impossible to forget.
I used a standard letter sized piece of paper and honestly I wish I'd had a whole whiteboard.
The thing turned into such a mess.
Basically the thing that I'm taking away from this is that there are two friends that were in the middle who I've fallen out with over the space of the pasture which is quite significant.
A lot have lost two but I guess the thing that is interesting is that since they have left two people who were in an in an outer circle have moved in.
You know you can think about the number of friends in the abstract in terms of data and statistics and the Dunbar number but then there's like staring at a sheet of paper with the reality of your friendships on it and that feels different because this isn't just a tally there are names that I'm looking
at in front of me. So I asked Professor Dunbar what all his research taught him about his own friendships.
It is the nature of social networks particularly the friendship component that they turn over with time we don't retain the same friends throughout life it's a very very very small number of people that retain as lifelong friends.
When I took a closer look at my friend data I realized that I have nine super close friends which is way more than this Dunbar average of five.
So I'm friend rich but then why do I still feel lonelier in London than I did in New York?
Well the answer might be in my lower tier of quote unquote good friends.
You see according to William Rawlings friends serve three purposes someone to talk to someone to depend on and someone to have fun with.
So while Dunbar counts up how many friends we have Rawlings research is way more interested in why we have those friends what they do for us so rather than me focusing on my totals here I wanted to better understand how my friends make me feel.
My layer of super good friends the ones who are now mostly married are great at satisfying the first two qualities or as Dunbar puts it they're those relationships where you know the person in some considerable depth so that when crisis happens the cavalry will come racing over the hill straight away.
But they're too busy for their other friend purpose the fun part.
See my lower layer of good friends in New York was huge and they were the fun ones.
I could call them up for a drink to go dancing they were the Friday night cavalry but they weren't necessarily the Monday morning I am so depressed cavalry.
In London I don't have enough of the fun friends.
I had been really worried about how to have fun with my existing friends but really what I needed to do was to find my new floozies.
While I'm digging into the numbers I realized that I don't have enough friends to just have fun with.
It wasn't simply the number of friends it was also the type of friendships that weren't fulfilling my needs.
And I think this is a really important point when we're trying to figure out if something is normal we tend to gravitate towards averages but an average which is what Dunbar's number is doesn't actually tell us what normal looks like.
Normal and average are not the same thing and I'm not even getting spiritual with you here I'm getting statistical.
See the average just takes all of our deeply varied experiences and flans them down into one number.
Let's say you have a group of people some of them their favorite fruit is plums and others prefer apricots.
The average favorite fruit there is not a plum cot.
That tells us nothing about the actual people we are looking at.
See for me it wasn't the average it was the qualitative data that really helped me to understand what I needed and if you did your own friendship mapping when you look at your drawing are you seeing what you need in life.
In doing this exercise I noticed something else that shifting that had happened between the layers.
In losing two friends I gained two others so maybe I just needed to trust I will always have nine close friends they just might not be the same nine friends as sad as that is to accept.
Do you think that like changing friendships is just a natural part of life?
Yeah yeah I was curious how my mum's friends fluctuated throughout her life.
How many friends did you have when you now that you are in your 70s?
Since I retired and I have met recently some friends who some of them are surprisingly younger than me but they are very good very much caring and there are people that I didn't do much for them but they seem to be doing a lot for me.
Do you have friends of different ages?
Yeah I have friends who are 20 years younger than me.
And her young friends they're have fun friends.
We got out and if I got out with them they just treat me like a princess they love me and I love them what more I want from them.
My mum has her fun friend cavalry I just need to build that back up in London for myself.
It's going to take a while and in the meantime there's always my mum.
Hi Mona just seeing what you are doing tonight I'd like to know if you are free to come look at Badesample with me call me back.
Am I Normal is part of the Ted Audio Collective.
It's hosted and produced by me Mona Cellaby and it's brought to you by Ted and Transmitter Media.
This episode was produced by Joanne Deluna and Wilson Sayer.
Wilson is also our managing producer along with Lacey Roberts.
Sarah Nix is Transmitter's executive editor and Greta Cohn is our executive producer.
The Ted team is Michelle Quinn Bam Bam Cheng and Roxane Hylash.
Jennifer Nam is our fantastic researcher and fact checker.
Additional production by Domino Sound.
That original theme song was by Sussami.
Michelle Maclim is our sound designer and mix engineer.
Additional help from Kim Baikumma and special thanks to our very popular contributor my mum.
For the transcripts and research that I talked about in this show you can check out the link in the description.
We're back next week with More Am I Normal.
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PRX.
