Strategic Networking Isn’t What You Think — It’s How Careers Are Made | Negotiate Anything

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Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of negotiate anything, with over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds.

We've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone.

And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

Hey everyone, it's Kwame Christian host of Negotiate Anything asking you to.

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Hey, listeners.

Welcome to our private convo.

It's me and Jewel.

Jewel, welcome to the show.

How about you start off by telling the listeners about yourself and what you do?

Absolutely.

So I'm originally from California, San Francisco Bay Area specifically, and grew up very multicultural environment.

Good upbringing ended up going to UC Santa Barbara for college, majored in black studies, went to Antioch University, got my master's in clinical psychology.

Did my 3000 hours quite a few, quite a long time there and then got my license to do therapy in the state of California.

So psychotherapy.

And I started this organization called Black Executive Men.

We focus on black men in corporate America.

I looked around, if you will, the Black community and said, who am I going to work with?

I knew I was going to work with brothers, but I didn't know the kind of segment and sector.

And there's a lot of diversity.

So I started out working with kids, and then teens, and then brothers getting fresh out of prison, like blue collar and this, that and the third.

And I didn't really discover.

It was just newer for me.

There was a brother who came in Harvard Business School, grad suited and booted.

Two-parent family grew up in San Francisco, just On point impact driven, earning good money.

I'm like, who is this guy?

And just had it together.

And I started learning more and more about black men in corporate America, specifically the United States.

And I was just blown away by number one how much these guys are earning impact driven driven, family focused, morally upward.

Just all the right things.

And I was just blown away.

And that's when I actually found the name for Black Executive Men.

I was doing that for six years.

About two years ago pivoted to coaching and now actually pivoting from doing one on coaching to a membership network where guys come in and get different services and things like that.

So just a bit of background on me, my passion and my life's work.

Man, I love it.

I appreciate it.

It's so important.

It's very, very important.

And listeners, I know we have a very diverse audience from people from around the world.

And so I don't want the focus of this niche to make you think that this episode isn't for you either.

Because the thing is, we have these foundational skills that everybody can use.

And if you can find a way to take the gems from Jewel...

In this episode, you can find ways to apply it in your own life.

And for people who want to be allies as well.

It can help you to understand other people's perspectives and lived experiences so you can connect at a higher level.

So Jewel, I think a great place for us to start is focusing, just starting, with your foundational approach, with your four pillars.

And then we can talk about how negotiation and conflict resolution skills really amplify what it is that we need to do to be successful in the professional world.

Absolutely.

And I just want to follow up.

These skill sets and mindsets, we could be talking to anybody here today.

It's just in the world of business, at times we choose a niche, specialize and focus.

But absolutely, these are going to be applicable for anybody in any background.

So I hope you all find some value in this.

In really working with over 500 Black men, different levels of seniority over the past eight years and doing workshops, Google and Microsoft and NVIDIA and Capital One and Medtronic and all these organizations, made it a study like some were getting their PhD this is how much I focused on what are the skill sets that help people advance let's say toward the c-suite just in their careers as opposed to others that really hold them back and came up with these four pillars and these are some things I'm talking about my upcoming book as well but we're gonna go over them here now so the first one is the hundred percent formula Simply put, it's just giving it 100% at whatever it is that you're doing.

This is key.

Number two, it's your internal marketing campaign.

This is what I would say the pin rules of success in the workplace.

These are things we often don't get taught in college or grad school, but these are the things that people are doing behind the scenes to get promotions.

It's your internal marketing campaign, letting the right people in the organization know not just what you're doing ie activity but the value that it brings to the organization.

Key.

Number three is your professional development.

Many times folks are Maybe not so focused on that, just thinking hey, I know what I need to do to get the job done, that's sufficient.

But when we talk about the hidden rules of success and moving ahead, making sure that you are ideally one of the best in your company, if not the world at what you do is going to be tremendously helpful for you.

And much of that comes through professional development.

Not only what your company provides.

Many times people do those activities.

They go to the annual conference and they think you know what I've done it.

But folks, there's a whole world out there.

There's whole conferences associations, different networking groups where you can learn the best practices from your industry sector, level of seniority, your role.

Bring that back to your company and advance.

And the last thing is networking.

And even though it sounds simple and it's number four in this list, It quite possibly is number one in terms of importance when it comes to building out your career, not just at your current role, but the overall arc.

So we're talking about your job, but we're also talking about your investments, your impact, your personal brand, things of this nature.

Networking is typically what opens those doors for access, for incredible opportunities that may be closed if you didn't have those connections.

So of course I'm happy to go into detail, but I just wanted to give you all that overview of what those four pillars are.

I love it.

This is great.

I think we should just take it from the top, the 100 formula, giving it your all, because let's channel the voices of a skeptical listener.

They say, well, Jewel, of course, isn't that a truism?

Shouldn't we always be giving our all?

So what is it that people often miss or misunderstand when it comes to the 100% rule?

So when we talk about the 100% formula, this is really like an introductory rule.

And many people, like you said, might be thinking, well, either how important is this?

Or, you know what, I'm already doing this.

And I've thought the same in my own career before I started working with coaches.

But I'll give you an example.

There was a client that I was working with who was doing good incredibly intelligent guy, very motivated and he brought this example to me.

He says you know what?

I'm trying to get a promotion, I'm trying to get the raise, but they're not really looking at me in that way.

So we start to dissect, well, how are you showing up?

Let's look at your performance, let's look at your presence.

So let's talk about a few different scenarios.

Let's talk about meetings.

How's it going for you there?

And he says, oh, well, let me tell you about meetings.

When they happen, other people are sharing their opinions and insights, and I'm not sharing so much.

And so I say okay well, an easy solution might.

Be well, you just should share your insights and just solve that.

But As a coach, I wanted to dissect the situation to find out really what's going on here.

I said, well, how is it that they're sharing and you're not sharing?

What is it that they know or they're doing that you don't know and are unable to do because of it?

And he says, well, we actually get some notes that come to us before the meeting takes place.

And it's about what we're going to be talking about today. at the meeting.

Now, I already know exactly where we're going at this point.

I said, OK, got it.

And do you read those notes?

And he says, well, Yeah, I do read them.

Okay.

When do you read them?

He said, well, during the meeting.

I said, okay.

Okay.

I love that you're reading.

This is great.

I just got to land this plane with him.

Because you're reading it during the meeting, not before the meeting.

Is that taking away from you being able to prep at all in order to have an opinion?

Have some insight during the meeting.

He says, absolutely.

I said, okay, no problem.

Homework is to read those notes before the meeting next time so you can prepare, have something insightful to say.

They can see you as a high value contributor, leading to you getting ideally, a promotion and a raise.

How does that sound?

He says sounds great, he does it, they love it.

He's finally contributing and they're starting to look at him in a positive way.

This is over the course the next two or three weeks.

So, Even though he thought he was doing 100, we were able to find out that there were areas that he was actually and I know this may sting a little bit, but we're just going to kind of look at it from just a purely coaching lens was underperforming.

Not even compared to other people per se, just compared to what he could bring, to his role and to the perception of him, which is key in his business.

So that's an example of the 100% formula.

It's a very simple concept, but when we put it into action, we can uncover all of these potential blind spots where we can actually do more.

Oh, this is great.

I love this for several reasons.

First of all, Listeners, I want to make sure that you recognize this point.

Jewel just gave us a masterclass in coaching.

Because what you said Jewel, as you were going through that scenario with him, you were asking questions.

You weren't telling him what to do.

You were asking questions.

And then you started to recognize a pattern and you knew, hey, I have a hypothesis.

I assume I understand where this is going.

But you didn't jump in at that point and say, I know this is where this is going.

This is what you would have done and this is what you should do.

You still kept on asking questions, leading him to this conclusion and showing him the respect of allowing him to tell his story, not you tell his story to him for him.

And then you got him to that point where he came to the conclusion himself because of the incredible coaching questions that you asked.

So I think this is something important that us as everyday negotiators should keep in mind.

And then when you think about the 100 rule, When you think about negotiation, the definition we like to use on Negotiate Anything is anytime you're having a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something.

And so you're recognizing there's like a negotiation aspect to almost every interaction that we're having in the corporate space.

And so the question is, how much are we putting into these meetings?

Are we putting 100% into these meetings?

How much are we putting into every single conversation?

Are we taking the time to prepare for these individual conversations?

And you're recognizing how this flows really organically into the other pillars, like the internal marketing campaign.

You are your own major marketer and we're missing out on these marketing opportunities by not taking advantage of these everyday negotiations.

Yeah, and I mean, beautiful segue into the internal marketing campaign. campaign.

And when I think about internal, I think about your organization that you're at.

It's what I want you all to keep in mind.

Marketing, highlighting value, campaign being ongoing.

And even being here down here in Mexico and Guadalajara, and I'm able to look out over the city from where we're at

And one of the things that I see here is the McDonald's Golden Arch.

Now I can see a lot of the city from where I'm at.

And yet that's probably two of the signs that are recognizable from just miles away and what i like about that is they're always letting you know there they are come get a hamburger come get a happy meal or whatever it is that you might want to buy from there even when the store is closed they're marketing here we are come do business with us now many of us have gotten the message that the best way to go about our jobs is put our head down and get the work done and that will be rewarded that people will see it they will notice it and we will get rewarded now sometimes that happens but what you may not know is that there are some hidden rules to success and that your colleagues other people whether they learned it from family or a book or school or wherever are actually communicating with and these are the folks i want you all to keep in mind their executive sponsor get into that in just a moment but the person at the organization senior leadership that's opening the door for their promotion different from a mentor at their company but that's the second group of people that they're communicating with their mentors one two three four five in the company most times at a more senior level of seniority and leadership and they're communicating with them with the activity is that they're doing and the value that they bring and the last piece is their manager or skip level manager now there's two pieces of information that they're communicating number one is the activity that they're doing went to the meeting signed the deal spoke with a subordinate about this that and the third but the second piece is actually most important it's the value and just about everything we do in the world of business can be converted into some number some level, some percentage, some way it's impacted the bottom line of the organization, the market share in the organization.

And for folks that are probably a little more higher up, potentially even the stock price, depending on what kind of activity that you're doing communicating this value to your executive sponsor, your mentors and your manager.

Skip level manager.

Typically I like to say weekly for your manager, monthly for your mentors and quarterly for your executive sponsor.

It creates an ongoing narrative of activity and success in their minds, which is key when it comes down to new projects, promotions.

Who are they going to elevate?

Now you might be thinking well, these people might be micromanaging me or they might be great and just kind of let me go do my thing.

But they're aware of the activity and value.

And the reality is that these are busy people.

You know they have a lot going on in their lives and although you may talk to them with some regularity, you may not probably, or not.

Their number one focus, so i like to share with my clients that's a part of your job is to make sure they know what you're doing in written format, by the way, in an email, something like that and they know the value that your activity brings to the organization.

So that's, that's pillar number two, your internal marketing campaign, and this can be a game changer from going from doing the work well and then to getting the rewards of doing that work.

Oh, this is powerful.

This is powerful.

This is a masterclass because let's just think about this in a very simple way.

So if we're thinking about opportunities to advance within a company, let's just think about it in a yes or no question.

Do you deserve to have a raise?

Do you deserve to advance at the company?

Yes or no.

And if we're not getting that, that means that, either actively or passively, the response from leadership was no.

And so we ask ourselves, is that the truth now?

Here's what I love about this.

One of my buddies gave me a great definition for truth.

Truth is nothing but the narratives we choose to believe.

And what you talked about with this ongoing marketing campaign is that it is a narrative of activity and success.

Another word that you mentioned before was perception.

So if we are not telling this story, if we are not intentional about creating this narrative of success and continuing to tell our story of success, then nobody's going to believe it.

So what's true?

To them, to the person who cannot perceive your narrative of success.

What's true is you don't deserve the opportunity.

You don't deserve the raise.

But what's true to you is you see all your work.

But the question is, did you communicate that?

And did we communicate that persuasively?

And so again, I love the fact that you were.

This is empowering, because you're giving the responsibility to the person who has the story, who's living the experience.

It's your responsibility to tell the story.

So if you're not getting the outcomes that you want, then you need to become a better storyteller and become more consistent with that narrative.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, there's so many levers of power that we actually have control over, especially in place.

I mean, we could talk about entrepreneurs as well.

It definitely exists there as well.

But this is mainly for the, you know, the W2 side of the equation, 100%.

Absolutely.

And I think one of the most powerfully persuasive tools that we have at our disposal that is often underutilized is just consistency and persistence.

Like when you think about sales, it requires like a certain amount of touches in order to be persuasive, but just being sticking to that narrative and being consistent and recognizing that it might sound like redundant to you, but other people forget, they're busy.

So keep that narrative going.

Let's pause real quick.

You can plug in.

No worries.

Ready to rock.

Perfect.

And, by the way, it was funny, man.

While you were gone, I saw a message from my editor, my producer, here.

He's like, I want to get more episodes on networking.

I was like, oh, this is perfect.

So I think we touched on personal professional development at the beginning.

So I think we're good there.

If we can transition into the networking portion, that would be good.

I'm excited about that one.

All right.

And so now with the time that we have left, because we could just keep on talking about this.

I'm really loving the conversation, but I want to focus on networking because again, networking is one of those terms that we've heard throughout our careers and it's become utilized almost to the point of meaninglessness.

I know with your approach, there's so much nuance to this.

So I want to give you an opportunity to talk about how we can utilize networking more strategically in the corporate space in order to get the results that we want.

Yeah, absolutely.

So many times i don't know if you all have had this experience.

You go to, let's say, a networking event and you know, maybe some people are whiskey or other people are laughing.

You get slaps on the backs and people that kind of know each other, some people are brand new.

This, that and third, and back in the day, i don't know how much quite it is now but handing out business card and just end up with a stack And you don't really know what to do with that stack of cards that you have.

So you may reach out to everybody on LinkedIn or wherever and just follow up.

Hey, great to meet you.

And it just doesn't go anywhere.

And it kind of begs this question of, what really was the point of me going to that event?

I met some good people and maybe made some new friends and maybe colleagues were there, but how did I really get the most out of it?

So the key thing to think about is, having a goal for your career.

And this is something that many of us don't think about.

We just, you know, we go to school, we go to undergrad, we go to grad school.

We think I'm gonna get a good job, this sounds like a good profession career, and we just do it.

And we're just going about it.

And we have our family life and health stuff and hobbies and all these other activities.

But really thinking of when I am 40, when I am 50, when I am 60, This is where I want to be.

This would be the pinnacle of my career.

Let's say, being a CEO or being a VP or being an entrepreneur, something like that, being a coach, you name it.

And this is how much I want to be making the money. doing it.

I want to be an investor.

I want to go into the VC world, the private equity side of the equation.

What is your goal?

Do not leave this to your boss.

Do not leave this to somebody else or Tony Robbins.

Shout out.

I love Tony Robbins and everything that he's doing.

But this is your decision and you get to make it and you're empowered to do so.

Your mind is incredibly powerful.

That's the first thing to decide.

What is your goal career-wise?

Where do you want to end up?

So not where you're at right now, not even necessarily your next job or the job after that, or your next raise and the raise after that.

What is your ultimate goal?

Once you have all that, you can wrap around the 100% formula.

You can wrap around the internal marketing campaign.

And now networking, especially professional development.

But for networking you can wrap around.

Who do you need to meet?

We're just going to be very direct.

And who's not important?

This isn't about the importance of another human being as far as just a humanitarian standpoint.

This is your goal, specifically that.

Who is important for you to know and have a professional relationship with that can open doors, coach you, mentor you, provide you with insight on how to get to that goal.

So now, when you walk into a room, there's going to be people that you really want to meet and other people.

It's nice to meet, but it's not your focal point.

Remember, be friendly, be nice, be cordial, but you're there for business.

You're there, you know, in business pretty much trying to make a profit through the services and products that we deliver, and you have one to deliver to an organization or to a market.

So this is being very strategic about who you're going to be networking with.

That can then open doors for you to get there quicker or to get there at all, and i'll even give you an example.

You know how this works.

So in my own business here at black executive man, i'm constantly learning about new topics and these days it's around like private equity and the vc equation and hedge funds and like what's going on with that, people that are having an impact in that way, working with founders, things of this nature.

So I start writing about it on LinkedIn.

If you all aren't.

I know pretty much everyone is on LinkedIn, but if you're not, it's a phenomenal place to build your network and to meet new people that can open doors for you.

So I start publishing about that or writing about this on LinkedIn.

However, the algorithm works.

People that are in the VC and private equity world they start to see it.

And I can see in my profile views that they're checking out my account.

That's my goal.

It's very strategic.

And from there I hop on.

You know, I ask you know, can I hop on your calendar?

15 minutes?

Just learn more about this topic and your experience there.

Many people are happy to hop on their calendar.

These are people, you know, Harvard, MBAs, MIT, Yale, you name it, Oxford, you name it.

The next thing I know, I don't know these people at all.

Next thing, I know I'm on a conversation with them and I'm just talking to them, picking their brain, learning from the inside.

What does it take to run a hundred million dollar fund?

Folks, my background is in psychotherapy.

I've never been to business school.

Important but secondary, because networking can open up doors to rooms that you normally would not have access, to people that are willing to bring you in.

And that is the power of network.

Now, with that information, I get to bring that back to my community.

I get to build out my own career, see if there's a future for me in that space or not.

But all the access to whatever industry level seniority, it's all there for you.

But the key is to decide what you want to do.

Then you can put your networking strategy to use to get there.

And with this, what you said here Joel, of my favorite word was strategy, and strategic because everything you said was so intentional.

And I see this in negotiation all the time, too.

You might have somebody who has incredible skills and great tactics, but if they don't have an overall strategy or a clear goal, negotiate effectively in the negotiation.

Get exactly what they want.

And it could be not only unhelpful but maybe harmful, because they didn't think about the direction that they actually want to go outside of the negotiation.

And so what we're moving from here is just tactical thinking to strategic thinking.

Because if any of the listeners are like me, as you were talking about the networking, I realized sometimes the problem is that you're just in the wrong rooms.

It's not that the networking doesn't work or you had the conversation the wrong way.

You were just networking in the wrong space with the wrong people because it wasn't strategic.

You were just thinking tactically.

You're saying a tactic for my career is networking.

Here's a random networking event.

Here I am.

And so if we start to think more strategically about it now, we can piece this together in a way that actually takes us to where we want to go.

Absolutely.

I mean, if your goal is to get to the C-suite and you're hanging around product managers, program managers, I mean that's good to have your kind of level of seniority cohort.

But what if there's programs that can help you to become a C-suite leader?

You probably should be networking in those circles.

Or there's an opportunity at your organization to get mentored by somebody that's a VP or an SVP.

You definitely want to take advantage of these opportunities.

And probably start networking less on how to advance your skills as a product manager, program manager.

Very important.

But if you have your goal in mind, you can kind of met out what opportunities you should be taking advantage of to help you get there quicker, if at all.

Because sometimes people have a goal, but they don't do the activities in order to get there and they fall short.

Networking is one of the best ways to get there.

And just can I add one more piece of the puzzle here?

Absolutely.

So the corporate world, it's kind of like a club.

I don't know.

You could think of it like this.

Go back to maybe third grade and there's the treehouse clubhouse and you got your buddies and they're in there.

And then there might be another kid who, I don't know, you don't really know that well.

And there's the question of, does he belong or not?

Or should we let him in or not?

And whether that's nice or not is secondary to just the way of the world of business.

If your goal is is to get into that clubhouse.

That is in many ways how the business world works.

It's a club, different businesses, higher levels of seniority, certain circles.

It works like that.

It's a club and networking and networking well can open those doors for you to enter into conversations and deals and opportunities that would not be on the table for you.

You just would not even know about them if you were not in that circle.

Frankly, you could be mediocre in a fantastic circle and have more opportunities coming to you than being phenomenal at a circle with limited opportunities in terms of results.

Brilliant.

You're spot on, man.

And especially when you think about this in as it relates to marginalized communities.

You might be racial minority, my gender minority, whatever it happens to be in that space.

You recognize a lot of times we focus on the bias.

We focus on the bad.

Oh, this is working against me.

But now we're recognizing that through the power of networking and through the power of negotiation.

Now we start to generate positive momentum and generate those biases in our favor.

When you break it down, trust is just a positive bias.

If we think about bias as a subconscious preference toward something or a subconscious prejudice against something, bias should be an integral part of our strategy, no matter who we are, because there's no such thing as neutrality.

Understanding that psychologically, let's just say, all right, cool.

So an integral part of my professional strategy should be to get as much positive bias ethically as I can moving in my favor.

So, like you said, this is more important than the skills, because there are so many times where people look at somebody on the news, somebody who's getting an award, and then you say that person is objectively bad at what they do.

How in the world are they so successful?

And then we say, oh, it's biases, prejudice, whatever it happens to be.

Okay.

How do you get that working for yourself?

You network.

You create these connections.

You put yourself in these rooms.

People become familiar with you.

They start to know, like, and trust you.

And now, when these opportunities come, now they come your way because you're on their radar and they like you.

And so, when you're recognizing this, you say oh, now this is how I can blend psychology with negotiation skills, with networking as well.

Because now you can use those negotiation skills to ask questions in a nuanced way to make people feel safe, gather information and you can use that information to find new opportunities.

So all of this comes together.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And I just love the negotiation.

Take on it, how everything can be seen through the lens of negotiation, like all of these different pieces, and just how it constantly plays a part.

And even in all of this as well, there's ways to engage.

This is, you know, definitely not well i'm definitely not an expert in this realm but to negotiate to get more out of it or come up with less in the in the deal.

These are all many deals that are happening.

That's just why i think what you're talking about is so important here.

And just going to add a side note, I just love studying your material that you put out and applying it to my own life in different ways and tweaking what I'm doing as well.

So thank you for this.

Hey, man, my pleasure.

This is great.

I appreciate this.

The work you do is so important.

So keep it up.

And I want to make sure that you have an opportunity to remind the listeners about you, your company and your upcoming book and how they can get in touch with you.

Yeah, absolutely.

So the best way to get in touch with me, I'd say probably just reach out to me on LinkedIn.

My name is Jewel Love, J-E-W-E-L-L-O-V-E.

You can also head to blackexecutivemen.com.

That's our website.

It's spelled exactly how it sounds.

You can learn more about the community there that we're building.

And if it speaks to you, go ahead and apply on that website.

And, as far as the book Born Driven, the Executive Blueprint for Black Men in Corporate America that's due to come out in July.

So just I'd say, check my LinkedIn page for that, because I'm going to be advertising it and celebrating it left and right there.

Awesome, man.

Hey, we appreciate you.

And thank you again for coming on the show.

This was a masterclass.

Thank you.

That was the first part of today's masterclass.

Up.

Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.

Let's keep it rolling.

Whitney and Stephanie, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, we're so glad to be here.

Yes, thank you for having us.

It's our pleasure.

So Whitney, how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, my name is Whitney Abraham.

I am a business coach for women who build online-based businesses, leveraging their expertise and their personality.

And I am the co-owner of a digital marketing company here in Columbus Ohio, called Real Social and also the co-host of the Capture Confidence podcast with my darling partner, Stephanie.

Yay.

So I am Stephanie Hanna.

I am a lawyer by trade.

I have a business called The Other 85 where I do professional development coaching for attorneys and other professionals.

And I am also the co-host of the Capture Your Confidence podcast with Whit.

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Awesome.

And everybody, you might remember Stephanie.

She's been on the show a number of times talking about networking and negotiation.

And in today's episode we're here to highlight an exciting new program, but also here to give some really practical tips about how you can change your mentality around business and collaboration and communication and negotiation in order to move your career forward, and how we could use networking and negotiation as a tool for that growth.

So, Whitney, let me pass the ball to you first.

Can you tell the audience about the exciting event that's coming up in October?

Yes.

So you know it's new to so many people, but it's not new to us, because this is our third year putting on the State of Women Conference.

But it is so new in the way that we're doing it this year and we're so excited to share it with everyone.

But essentially it's a day of a fusion of personal and professional development for women to help them get out of their own way, to help them go after the things that they want, make the connections that are going to help connect them to the next right step in their careers and in their lives and really pour into themselves, because obviously women don't take a lot of time to do that.

This is great.

And the American Negotiation Institute is an affiliate.

Of course, we have to disclaim that, but it's because we believe in this.

It's so important.

And I've seen the transformation and heard about the transformations that people have gone through after going through the conference.

So for me I'm excited not only to support and kind of be a part of it in a little way, but also to utilize some of the magic that will be in the event for free here on the podcast for all of you.

And so let's set the stage here when we're talking about this, because there's a mental side to this game and then there's going to be a strategic side to this game.

And Stephanie, I want to pass the ball to you.

When it comes to the mental side of the game, what is the transformation that you want to see in the people who go through the program?

Yeah, we really want people to leave the conference feeling like they can accomplish whatever it is that they want to accomplish.

So people often come to us with lofty goals, but they have families and lives and people telling them it's maybe not a great idea and their own voices in their head giving them all the reasons why they shouldn't be doing something, why they shouldn't be going for more.

And when they leave the conference, they have kind of shattered their own glass ceiling.

They recognize that there is more.

They are capable of more and they're just as worthy as everyone else that they see going after it.

So the mental transformation, you know, aside from the strategic and the practical, is really critical because we can give you the tools all day long.

But if you don't believe that it's for you and that you are worthy of receiving them and implementing them, they're not nearly as effective.

So the thing we love the most about the conference is the mental transformation absolutely, and what i've seen in this in in the negotiation space when it comes to anybody who is starting their negotiation journey, and even with experienced negotiators, a lot of times we are limited by our own ambition And so, for example, if we were to go into a negotiation and let's say it's a salary negotiation or you're, you're an entrepreneur and you have this contract with a longstanding client and prices have changed, inflation is up.

You have to adjust your prices.

If I go into those types of negotiations and I say I want to negotiate for one percent more.

Most likely, the most I'll get is 1% more.

But if I say I want to increase by 30, I might not get 30, but I might get 10 or 20, which is better than where I was before.

So when we are limited by our own ambition, we're putting a governor on our success.

And when you start to recognize that there is more, that you could possibly get more now we can actually change our mentality to move in that direction.

But if we don't make that shift mentally internally, for ourselves first, then we're going to be really limited.

And I think you know you raise a great point because a lot of the times where we don't even go for the 30 is not because we don't want more, but it's maybe we just don't think we deserve more or we don't want to take up that much space.

And so really changing the mentality to but if I win more, then I can help others more and I can do more good.

And so it's not selfish.

It's.

Really just having that growth mindset and knowing that you are going to take the more, whatever it is that you get, and you're going to pay it back and you're going to make your programming stronger or you're going to make your product better or whatever it is.

But to just really think that you're worthy of the more, so that you can take it and put more back out into the universe.

Yeah.

And, you know, I think women count themselves out, especially.

And I will always tell women that I coach you better be sold on yourself before you ever enter into an arena with another person.

You better believe wholeheartedly that the thing that you're bringing to the table is worth everything that you're asking in return for it, before you ever open your mouth and try and convince someone else otherwise, because you'll lose the battle before you even walk in the room if you don't believe in yourself.

And I think women have to continually put themselves into positions where they stretch that upper limit, where they face what they're limiting themselves to and ask themselves whether or not, on the other side of their fear, if there's more possible for them.

And I hope that this day becomes a space where they can sort of safely confront that upper limit and ask themselves what they really want and why they're holding themselves back from it for sure.

This is crucial.

This is crucial because I think, even if you're somebody who struggles with this, hearing it described this way can sound a little foreign, can sound a little strange.

Deserving more, of course I deserve more, okay?

But do you really believe that you deserve more, right?

We can say it logically, but do we feel it emotionally and viscerally?

Those are two different things.

Because what I'm recognizing is that there are different layers of belief that we need to overcome.

So first, we have to believe, yes, I can aspire for more.

I can ask for more.

That's great.

Because going from not even believing that you can and should to believing it, that is a massive improvement.

But then there is a little bit more resilience that comes from a true deep, visceral belief that's in your bones, right.

Because if I say all right, I believe that I deserve more, and then I go into the negotiation, I might feel some resistance.

And then as soon as I feel that resistance, I say to myself, you know what?

This was a bad mistake.

They brought up a really good point.

I don't actually deserve more.

Let me sit down in my place.

Right.

But when we meet that anticipated resilient resistance that comes now, we can greet it with more resilience too, because we're like no actually, thank you for your suggestion that I don't deserve more, but I actually do.

And let me continue to walk through this fire.

And so it's.

It's about recognizing just the depth of this belief and where we might be, and recognizing where we might want to go.

And these are the soft skills.

I think that people have a hard time wrapping their minds around how to actually build.

Right.

And this is part of the reason why I love partnering with Stephanie, because so much of her work is wrapped up in helping people establish and cement some of those soft skills that are harder to quantify.

But man, they make all the difference in the outcome.

Absolutely.

And this actually gives us an opportunity to talk about some of those soft skills with a little bit more specificity.

Because Stephanie, I know this is where you shine, because networking is near and dear to your heart.

So can you tell us a little bit more about how the role that networking and connection plays into just growth and advancement in general?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think we've shared before this idea that people have to know you, like you and trust you to want to do anything with you right to be your super fan.

And the more that we can work on the know, like and trust, the easier it is for people to collaborate with us and the easier it is for us to be in partnership with others, so that we can both achieve greater things.

The other really important piece of, I think, collaboration and relationship building is having an abundance mindset.

I think it's very easy to go into these situations with a scarcity mindset and to think that You know, I don't want to collaborate because I cultivated this relationship, or I built this book of business, or what if they leave me?

And that is probably one of the quickest ways to derail both your own progress and the compounded progress that could be if you were to collaborate.

So, I think, coupling the know, like and trust with an abundance mindset and recognizing that there's enough for everybody.

And if I grow and they grow, then we all grow is important. part of the secret sauce.

And we focus a lot of our workshop on that, because it's not just going to help you if you want to create a business or do something more, but it's going to help you if you are, you know, trying to talk to your landlord or your supervisor or your spouse, right?

Like there's so many areas where this mentality comes into play and it's really useful.

Yeah, you know, as you were saying that Stephanie, I was thinking about the map that I put together on the domino effect of all of our relationships for the women that are participating in the state of women.

So I put together this map of how everyone met each other and how they started to collaborate with each other, and what that turned into.

And it was this beautiful domino effect of relationships like bigger things than we could have ever imagined for ourselves, because we started collecting one another and playing together instead of competing with each other.

And to me I just think gosh, so many people who are afraid to collaborate and afraid to network and share their connections and their expertise.

They miss out on the possibility of so much more from that place of fear.

And I hope that the room that we're creating is one where connections create something that is beyond what they could have imagined possible.

Right.

We're looking for those synergistic connections.

And it's really interesting because I never really explicitly made this connection between networking effectively and the abundance mindset.

And let's go a bit deeper into this, because I don't want to assume that everybody fully grasps this, because I think there are going to be different levels to this.

Because when we say, all right cool, we want to have an abundance mindset, sometimes we might have an abundance mindset as it relates to ourselves.

But then you incorporate somebody else and you're like wait a second, you're going to take some of my stuff.

So we don't we haven't gotten that far yet.

So it seems like we need to have an abundance mindset where it's like yes, there is more than enough for me and there's more than enough for you.

And if we work together, there can be more than enough for both of us.

But we need to both kind of adopt this mentality in order to move in that direction.

Yeah, I mean look, I think you can very quickly find out if someone has a scarcity mindset or an abundance mindset.

And what I mean by scarcity is just that there is a limited pool of resources and opportunities and information.

And so whoever can get the most of it will ultimately be the most successful, versus an abundance mindset, which you know you've touched on, but just there's, there's tons of it for everyone.

And it's not a race to who's going to get the most the fastest, but it's how can we work together so we all can get everything right together?

Like, how can we all get as much as possible?

And I think, I mean, within minutes now, as much as we've been doing this work, I can tell, right?

I can tell it was a yes or it was a no.

Like, is this going to work or not?

And it took a long time to get there.

But you know, I think you start to get a spidey sense about someone's true kind of core values and their beliefs about resources and collaboration and relationship building right.

And so you can.

Once you're able to sense it, then you can make decisions that are the most effective for you, because it is very hard.

It's going to take more than your relationship to undo someone's scarcity mindset.

Right.

It takes a lot of work.

So it's going to be easier for you to navigate when you're able to you know, know where you stand personally and then be able to gauge where your partners or potential partners are.

Yeah, Stephanie talks a lot about givers and takers, too.

And I think this has been a really good example of recognizing scarcity, mindset and action when you're networking and you're in a room and someone's you know maybe asking a lot of questions and trying to play this like name game instead of being really curious about the person in front of them and being a conversationalist.

Yeah.

I have aspired after doing that work and working with Stephanie.

I think abundance mindset also.

I just want to give the disclaimer it's a never done job, in the same way that confidence is a never done job.

We're always working on it.

We're always trying to strengthen it and grow that.

I mean so, after having started that journey and started to do that work, my goal when I walk into a room is To to find out as much about the people in the room as I can and to try and make connections where I can.

And we were talking earlier about creating win win scenarios with as many people as possible.

And so you know if, if I can enter into a conversation or into a room and be of help to someone else without expectation that it comes back to me, I actually end up getting way more back from that than I would have if I had gone in and being being me me me my my, my right.

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This is great.

And you're absolutely right.

And Whitney, I love the point where you said, you know, we're constantly working on this.

And I smiled because I know I currently am.

And it's humbling because I realized that last night, where I was thinking about a different type of expansion.

And then I said, man, when did I get so scared?

When did this happen?

Probably kids.

But when did this happen?

Because I used to be able to think a little bit bigger, take bigger risks.

But I realized, oh, I grew in my abundance mindset at that stage.

And now I've leveled out.

I've kind of topped out.

And now I'm going to require it's going to require a similar amount of effort to overcome this new level again.

And it was just humbling because I was saying, my goodness, I thought I was past this uh, but it's not like uh, you know a grade where i don't need to keep on revisiting second grade.

It's one of those things we just keep on pushing through in life and one of the things that i want to focus on here, because it is subtle and maybe the people who are only listening to this they can't see the video, they might not appreciate this, but there is a glow and energy that both of you all have as you talk about the connection and the networking, And I think a lot of times when people hear networking, they get nauseous.

And so I'm recognizing that there is.

We are using the word networking, but it has very different meanings for different people.

And so, when you think about the aversion that people have toward networking, what are those self-limiting beliefs and problematic beliefs that often hold them back?

So, in addition to networking, i also teach a negotiation class at the law school here and there is that same aversion to those words right to networking, to negotiation and you know whitney talks a lot about marketing and sales and that same aversion.

And so how interesting that we have to build businesses around words that people generally don't like.

And so for networking in particular, i would say the It feels very inauthentic.

It feels salesy or I'm trying to pitch myself.

I'm trying to take up too much space.

I could just work hard and keep my hand down and someone will notice me.

I don't want to go into.

Like you know, they just have this vision of, like a cocktail party where you know everyone is talking and nobody wants has anything to do with you.

And that, you know, everyone's like scheming to exclude you.

Right.

They've concocted like the worst possible scenario in their mind and then use that as a picture their mind goes to every time the word networking comes up.

No, nobody wants to walk into a room where they feel like they're gonna have to small talk or posture.

But they do if you ask them hey, do you want to go to a place where you're going to meet your next mentor?

Hey, do you want to go to a place where you literally meet the person that changes the trajectory of your career?

Do you want to meet your best friend in business?

They all say yes.

They want to find their people, but they don't.

They're starting to look at networking as the negative space, not the space of possibility.

Right.

And so, if you think about panning for gold, of course you're going to have a lot of conversations with people that might not end up being anything in order to find the one nugget of the person who's like oh my goodness.

Can you imagine if I didn't go into that room that night?

Can you imagine if I said I would rather just stay home?

And hang out instead of doing this thing.

Can you imagine what he would have missed out on?

And so I encourage people, if they have this negative lens on networking, to start thinking about the possibility of what can happen when you walk in the room, instead of the laborious effort that it takes for you to, sort of like, become a person who can network.

I love this.

This is so helpful because it's like, imagine if you say, okay, well, you have to network.

People would say, okay, yes, begrudgingly, I'll do that with their typical mindset.

But if you ask, do you want to be networked?

Like, what does that mean?

That doesn't it doesn't sound good for me at all.

Right.

And I think about some of my most valuable relationships that I've come away with from these networking events.

And it's the people who were just ruthlessly authentic, where they were just saying hey, this is who I am, and let's vibe and barely talk about business, if at all.

I remember one of my friends that I met still friends to this day.

This was about nine years ago.

It was a speed networking scenario and it was around Halloween times and we have a minute and a half and everybody's just like hi, I'm so-and-so, this is my business, this is how I can help you, and it gets old really fast.

And he said, hey, what do you want to be for Halloween?

I said, wow, what a great question.

And we just vibed.

And then in the last five seconds, he said, OK, I do this.

And I said, I'll do that.

Friends to this day.

Right.

And when you think about going all the way back Stephanie, to what you said, when we're saying no like and trust.

When you think about business, who do you want to do business with?

You want to do business with your friends.

And then if your friends are just slightly not as good as another option, but functional but just not that great, you're still going to go with your friends because you vibe with them.

And when you think about it in terms of just going out there, being yourself and making relationships and helping people.

Now it's an exciting opportunity.

But if you have that biased lens around networking as a bad thing, it's a chore.

I have to pretend that I care only about business and I'm not a whole person.

Now it's not fun for anyone in the interaction.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, look, at the end of the day, this gets easier the more you do it.

There is this piece of equipment at the gym called the ladder.

I don't know if you're familiar with it, but essentially it's like a bunch of rungs on this electric ladder.

It's essentially like a treadmill, but it's all self-powered.

So the faster you go, the faster the thing moves.

And I just have been having that as I'm on it, I'm like there are so many parts of life that are like this.

You're starting out slow.

You're just trying to figure it out.

But then like, the more you're able to go, like the faster the thing is going, but you're able to keep up.

OK, then you slip.

So hold on.

Then we got to slow down again.

But that's just like relationship building.

Right.

You're able to weed stuff out and go quicker. the more that you do it.

Like I am not going to the same things that I was going to 12 years ago, for sure.

I am very easily saying no to those things at this stage, but I'm still going to other things and new things that are serving my relationship building goals.

So the more you do it, the quicker you are and you're able to weed it out and do you know and just make smarter choices and it becomes less laborious.

Note to self, Stephanie is way tougher than me because I know the ladder.

I am not acquainted with the ladder.

I will never do such a thing.

So kudos to you.

But you're absolutely right.

Like a positive ladder, things in life, they just keep on coming back.

And I think it's really humbling to recognize that, to just say okay yeah, I can't, I'm not going to graduate from these challenges.

They're going to shift.

They might manifest themselves differently, but you just have to keep on going.

I like to think about it like a clock, you know, just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

We just keep on moving forward methodically.

And I think that's really powerful.

And when we bring that mentality to our career and our relationships and we just keep on advancing, that's really where we make those gains.

And the other part of the event that I know is going to be really exciting is the planning part, because we've talked about the mentality, the mindset side.

We've talked about the people, the connections that you'll make, but you're actually going to give people an opportunity to create a plan.

So, Whitney, can you tell us about that element?

Yeah, you know, we hear from thousands of women who have goals, whether they're professional or personal, and there's no question that if they knew how or what to do, they would be doing it.

And so tactically, we're going to have part of the day where we're making the plan for whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish and we're connecting the dots in how to get some of these things done, whether it's building a personal brand, or whether it's having a more compassionate relationship with yourself or deepening your relationships, or maybe you wanna build that business right.

And so then, we have to make the plan of what those next right steps are gonna be in order for you to actually create momentum, And there is a significant part of this day that's focused on helping you create that plan.

And then, of course, plunking in the pieces of the people that are going to help you move the needle, so that, when you leave, you not only know what to do, how to do it and who's going to help you get there too.

Yeah.

And I think you know the tactical piece is really important because sometimes you could leave a lot of conferences and seminars where you do feel that rah-rah right.

And then I used to call and put it on the shelf workshops, right?

I feel great, but I'm putting all this material on the shelf and hopefully this good energy carries me a couple more days.

So not only are you getting the good energy, you're actually getting the next steps.

OK, so when I leave here, who do I need to call?

Who do I need to schedule a coffee with?

What plans do I need to follow through on?

You've got the blueprint and it just makes it so much easier.

You know, in diversity and inclusion work there's an exercise that we do where we give everyone a puzzle to solve.

And then the facilitator gives one person kind of the answer key, the blueprint, not the full answers, but just says here are the different quadrants of the page so that you can find the solution.

Just give them that blueprint.

And then the participants all go through the exercise.

And the person with the blueprint, of course, is able to accomplish more of the exercise than anyone else in the room.

And the idea is all I did was give them a roadmap of And then they ran with it.

But everyone else is still stuck trying to figure out the roadmap and see if there's a pattern.

And they're kind of twirling among themselves and not able to make real progress.

But when they just got the roadmap from someone else, then they were able to run and they were able to get where they're trying to go much quicker.

And so...

That's what we hope to give you is the roadmap.

We're not doing the work for you, but we hope to help you change your mindset and then give you the roadmap so that once you leave, you know what to do.

This is great because so many events are just hyper motivational and hyper emotional.

And then, once that fades away which it often does people are just exactly where they were before, but guilty that they haven't done the thing that they were going to do.

Right.

So this is important.

And I know some listeners are saying why are we talking about business strategy on a negotiation podcast?

Well, I've got a little twist for you.

Because, let's say, people go to this event and they have a plan, they have connections and then they're confronted with the real world.

Because when you create a plan, that is only part of the battle.

We have to execute the plan.

But as we execute the plan, there are going to be things that will get in our way, that will often be well-meaning and try to lead us astray.

And so we have to be able to set boundaries in order to protect this.

And the thing that's tough is that sometimes we have to set boundaries with the people who we love.

So it might be a partner.

It might be a friend who wants to continue to socialize without moving forward.

Hey, no, I need to focus on this.

I might be a partner who wants more time, which partners often do.

But then you say, hey, I need to lock in for this moment.

So in those times where you have to protect your boundaries and say no, What is a framework or approach we could use to handle that particular difficult conversation?

Well, lucky enough, the session that I am leading at the workshop is all around boundaries.

And so because we know that those that's real life and that and that happens.

And I think the first part fundamentally is to understand that boundaries are something you control.

They're not something that someone else can break or not break.

Right.

It's just have you enforced it or not enforced it?

I think a lot of times it's very easy to pass the buck when we talk about boundaries.

You know, I told them, don't call me after seven.

And here they are calling me, like they just keep violating my boundary versus.

Oh, you know, I told them not to call me after seven.

So I'm not going to answer this so that I can enforce this boundary.

Right.

And that mindset shift is really critical.

And then the other thing is the language shift. to help you enforce that boundary.

Because a lot of times we just can't ignore people.

That's not how we want to enforce our boundary.

That's not how we want to show up.

So it's having the language to say, hey, here's why I'm doing these things.

Here's how I plan on enforcing them, on enforcing my boundaries or staying true to my word.

And here's what I hope that you're able to do.

And if you're not, that's completely okay too.

Right.

But here's how I'm still going to show up.

And here's how my behavior might change.

So we give a lot of little.

You know you might notice me fill in the blank and just key phrases.

That may help.

Hey, do you have a minute?

Right.

I mean just the basics of how we introduce a conversation, how we let someone know that we're trying to talk about something that you know maybe we don't feel great talking about, but we know is important in the long run.

So those are the things that, you know, we'll be covering more in depth.

But you're right.

Boundaries is a huge piece of it.

And so it's mindset and language.

And it doesn't.

It doesn't matter if you're on the corporate track or if you own a business, or even if you're a stay at home mom who wants to articulate better boundaries so that she can accomplish some of the things for herself that she wants.

These are life skills, right?

And so I love being in a room and watching people explain their circumstance to Stephanie and watching Stephanie help them wordsmith the language that looks sound and feel like them, in order for them to be able to set those boundaries.

Because again, if they knew what to say, they'd say it, but they don't know where to start.

And so sometimes having a coach to help walk you through that process is transformative, and we've seen some incredible boundaries come out of this conference.

So if you struggle with that, might I introduce you to my friend Stephanie, who is very, very good at it.

The other cool thing I'll say about the conference is that the makeup of the attendees has really transformed in the last couple of years.

Um, we actually have a lot more corporate um folks.

We have a lot more attorneys, a lot more people who probably will never have a side hustle right, who probably are going to go to work and go home, and that's how they want to show up.

But i think it's this mindset that, like you are still the ceo of yourself right, no matter if you work for someone else or you have your own business like you still are an entity that deserves a ceo and a board of directors, and so we want to help you fashion that so that you can put yourself in the best position.

So if you're listening to this and you're like well, I don't want a business or that's not for me, that's completely fine.

The really cool thing is that the audience is now being made up of folks at all stages right in the game and finding this content very useful.

Incredible.

Stephanie and Whitney, I'm so excited for this and excited to help promote as well.

And for the people who are interested in learning more about the conference and buying their ticket, there will be a link in the description.

But before you go, can you make sure that you give them the details and make the final pitch for why this is the best move for them?

Yes.

Well, I will go first.

So this is going to be on Thursday, October 10th, and it's going to be in Columbus, Ohio.

It's from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m.

And it is for women who want to dial up their impact, scale back their stress and create meaningful connections.

The transformations that we have been lucky enough to be a part of over the last three years have been so inspiring and so encouraging.

And just by dedicating a day to your own personal growth is one of the best gifts that you can give yourself.

I love the timing of the conference.

It's right in the final quarter of the year.

So you can finish planning out the rest of this year strong, but then also really look ahead to 2025 so that you can walk into that with a plan, with some direction and with some confidence to see it through.

Whitney?

I would just say, I would say if you're a woman who wants more, then we want you in the room.

And you'll know, you'll know in your gut if that's you.

And we would love to see you and support you and cheer you on and hopefully become one of the people that you actually want to keep in your life.

And we'll happily join your group of cheerleaders behind the scenes as we watch.

Whatever it is that you're trying to pull off.

Amazing.

Thank you both for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.

Let's dive in.

Frank, thanks for joining us again.

Well, I appreciate being on the program, Kwame.

It's always nice to be back.

It's always nice to have a conversation.

Yes likewise, we're excited to have you again.

So, for the listeners who may have forgotten, since it's been two years since your last episode uh, let them know who you are and what you do.

Yeah um, my name is frank agan.

I am in columbus, ohio.

I run an organization called am spirit business connections and uh, you know, People are always trying to work up their 30-second pitch and trying to get it down.

I'm 25 years later.

I'm still trying to hone it.

I'm still tinkering.

But we're kind of a no-nonsense networking organization that – connects driven small business people to reliable sources of referrals.

I mean.

So there are weekly meetings where people come in and they uh, they develop relationships and as a part of that they really want to help each other and they learn how they can help each other and uh, from that referrals happen.

So that's, you know really what i do.

Um, I think we're at 18, 19 franchisees, you know maybe 10 states.

I don't know.

I'm always the last to know.

Right.

I mean, if something's happening, who is this person?

I mean, which is a good thing.

Right.

But so I don't always have accurate numbers, but order of magnitude.

Yeah, no, this is great.

And listeners, again, you'll see with my friends, they're very humble.

So Frank is one of the most connected people I know.

And AmSpirit is incredible.

So we'll put links in the description of this episode so you can check it out, because it's like the reach is significant.

So if you have a company, having a company is that takes a lot.

But then to have a company successfully franchise it once, that takes a lot.

But 18 times is really impressive.

So kudos to you.

Well, it's actually like 26, but I've had some failures along the way.

Listen, you wouldn't be a legitimate business person if you didn't have failures.

So well, but I always tell people you know, like with, when I go out work with these chapters I think we're 120 chapters now and I'll go and I'll tell them there have been 200 chapters, you know.

So I have failed.

But I learn a lot from my failures.

You know, I mean, the Buckeyes, let's pick on the Buckeyes.

Buckeyes win a game by 50 points.

I don't know if there's any learning in that.

Right.

We're on the heels of the Penn State game.

There was some learning in that game.

You know, so, you know, failures, challenging times.

We learn a lot.

So I'm you know, I'm I'm I embrace my failures.

That's good.

No, this is great.

And listeners for this episode.

What we're going to do.

We're going to make this one of the open conversations types of episodes.

Those have been getting a lot of positive feedback.

And because of Frank's background and his success in business, I think it would be great to just open them up and see what's inside.

And let's dig into what you just said about The failures, because that's a major part of what it takes to be successful in business being able to own the failures, learn from them and improve upon them.

And your openness about the failures, especially with the people who are in the chapters.

That's really interesting because a lot of times people try to hide that because it's something that causes them shame.

So, when you think about your mindset around failure and building upon that, what does that look like for you?

Well, I think it depends on the failure.

I mean, sometimes, you know, in the moment that you screwed up.

Right.

I mean, and I am only human.

I can get I can have my buttons pushed.

And I remember years ago somebody pushed my buttons and I forget what it was, but I just turned to them and told them to F off.

It was horrible.

It was just a horrible moment for me.

Right.

And it's And, um, I knew the second it was out of my mouth that I'd screwed up, you know?

And, um, you know, it's, what are you going to do?

You know, you're trying to come back from that.

And it's, I mean, I did, I own the organization.

So it wasn't like I could be canceled or fired or anything like that.

Like, well, I guess you can be canceled in this day and age for pretty much anything.

But um, you know, I built up enough credit enough um uh, social capital, with a lot of people like yeah okay, that wasn't good.

But you know stop, stop flogging yourself.

Right, it's done, it's over.

Um, we didn't like that guy either, kind of a thing.

So um, you know.

So you kind of know in those moments that you've you've failed, but then there are other times where there are failures and you don't necessarily know it and you know the.

The wonderful thing about people certainly in the midwest, people are really nice.

The bad thing about people in the Midwest is that they're really nice and you don't know, a lot of times right,

Um, I mean, I've talked to people in New York, I mean, and they'll just pretty much tell you you know they'll being.

Nice is when they say no.

And there's not an expletive, right?

I mean, it's still, I mean, in the Midwest, it's like, well, we'll think about it.

You know, let's think about it, you know, get back to us in a year or whatever.

And you just, in their mind, it's like, oh, he's, you know, he's never coming back.

Um And so the same sort of a thing you might fail in a relationship and not really know that you failed in a relationship because they didn't give you a straight answer, trying to spare your feelings.

It doesn't really help you improve.

And then you kind of come back, maybe a year later through hearsay or something like that, and find out.

Yeah, here's the reason why.

And those are harder to deal with.

Um, you know, having an outburst with somebody is, you know.

You just learn to correct those things.

I mean, we all, you know, okay, I'm not going to let my buttons be pushed.

And when I feel they're being pushed, I'm going to walk away or I'm going to take a deep breath.

I'm going to count to 10 and, and, you know, try and deal with it that much better.

But when you don't know that you failed and then a year has gone by and it's like, oh my gosh, there's other things that I probably screwed up as well.

That's really kind of a lonely, desperate feeling of, geez, what opportunities did I miss?

Because you know, when you don't have the outburst OK, you know it's.

You know it's kind of like those signs and companies, right.

Zero days since or 100 days since the last accident.

Right.

So, you know, right.

Hey, we're doing OK.

But when you have an accident that's really unseen, you know, a faux pas of some sort, that's really you know.

So you have to, you know, you have to.

You just have to kind of take it a day at a time.

And, you know, we're always learning, as I indicated about how I describe my business.

I mean, I'm always learning, you know, listening to other people.

You just have to kind of keep after it.

Yes.

Oh, this is a great response, Frank.

I appreciate this.

And I appreciate her candor, too, because a couple of things.

So first, when you talked about that incident, you had to go way back for one of those like a flagrant foul.

Yes.

And one of the things that you said is that you have to stop flogging yourself and move forward.

And I think a lot of times when we feel guilt or shame for what it is that we do, our internal voice can be our own worst critic, where we continue to beat ourselves up far beyond the point of utility.

And so a lot of self-compassion and self-forgiveness is embedded within what it takes to learn, improve and grow, because you have to say, I am human.

I'm going to make mistakes, but my goal is to make sure I don't make the same mistake twice.

And we've gone years since the last accident in this example.

But you bring up a really good point when you're talking about the mistakes that you don't realize that you make.

Because you're right.

The Midwestern nice is one of our greatest strengths and weaknesses at the same time, because it helps us to avoid important conversations that need to happen.

But doing it with a smile that kind of hides our pain.

And in those situations, what are some signals?

When you look back and you've heard, you realize oh, there was a mistake that was made.

I didn't realize that.

When you look back, do you see any signs that you missed that something was off?

You know, I don't know that I...

There's actually a sign or a specific incident that I can think of, mainly because you know the the outburst which was actually at a Frisch's Big Boy in Dayton Ohio.

I mean, I remember it clearly because it was only one.

Right.

But the little faux pas of every day of maybe not treating somebody how we should be treating them.

They happen all the time.

And and some in, you know.

Math and science is great because one plus one always equals two.

But interacting with people is never the same twice.

You know and I hear people saying that we probably talk to all sorts of people on the Negotiate Anything podcast.

But people are different.

And they're different on different days.

Um, situations are different.

I mean, a year ago we didn't have inflation.

Like we have inflation um, you know, and so things change and people's mindsets change and how you deal with them, and and and so it may have been something that happened, you know, during the pandemic.

You know, but they, they hang on to it in a different way.

I don't know it's.

You know, it's really hard to.

You just have to try and improve day in and day out.

Um, And just, you know, just learn to, and maybe it's just with years I've learned to mellow and not, I think, patience.

Somebody asked me on a podcast, you know, if I could change anything about myself, what it would be.

It was patience.

You need to be more patient.

And I've always been impatient.

I think, well, you're an entrepreneur.

You kind of want it.

You want it now.

Right um, i left the firm.

I was making x at the firm.

I figured i'd make x times two in a year, because i'm hard working and doesn't work that way.

Um, not in a year.

It takes time and um, you just kind of have to keep after it and you have to keep after it and you have to keep after it and you know um, and so you just you know you have to.

So i've learned over the years to be more patient and um, you know, i know in the past there have been times i've really tried to for lack of a better term push people in the organization.

I know this works right.

I need you to do this.

Well, you've got kids, you get it.

You know you need to do it this way because it's worked for me, you know, and what i have found is is that to the extent i push somebody um, i get resistance.

But if I go to them and say listen, and I do this all the time, I will love you any which way.

I'm here to support you as a business person.

I think you should do this.

If you choose not to do it, I will still love you and I'll still support you.

But I think this is a better way for you.

And what ends up happening more often than not is they will take my advice.

But if I come in and I say, you know what?

This is my way.

This is how we're going to do it.

Because this is how we always do it.

I get tons of resistance.

It's just not worth the effort.

But if you kind of back off and just like you know however, you know, in fact there's a study I just I just printed off

Are you familiar with this?

It's a newsletter out there.

It's called Cyblog.

Oh.

Yeah, it's it's like sixty dollars a year to subscribe.

Really inexpensive.

Every day he's got something coming out.

It's out of the UK.

But this is this is one of the articles that came out a couple of weeks ago.

The one really easy persuasion technique everyone should know.

It's it's and it says he goes says it's supported by 42 studies on 22000 people.

It's the easiest, most practical persuasion technique available.

And what the answer is or what it is, is it's called the but you are free technique, right?

You should do it this way, but you are free to do it your own way.

And by giving people that choice.

You know, I mean, I just read this a week ago, but I've been practicing it, for this is really affirmed.

I've been practicing it for years.

I think you should do it this way.

It's my best advice.

If you don't, I still love you guys.

I'm not going to make you feel bad.

I'm not going to say I told you so.

You guys can do it your own way, you know, and you know it might be immediate where they're like.

OK, let's follow you.

Or it might be a year later saying, yeah, you were saying last year.

Yeah, I did.

And I still believe that.

And I still love you guys.

And, you know, if you if you need help getting back on track, I'm here.

This is so good, Frank.

It makes so much sense.

And I think again, it's one of those things where the counterintuitive approach is actually the most powerful approach.

And I love the fact that you brought in science here.

And I love the fact that you gave me another resource.

So the A&I team who's editing this podcast, your homework is to find the guy.

You said Cyblogs?

Oh, I'll email you a link.

Perfect yeah yeah, i'll email you the article.

And uh, and i mean, every day, there's like two that they put out and some are, you know, some aren't worth my time.

They're not of interest right, mental health sorts of things.

It just doesn't.

They're important, it's just not important to me um, but a lot of them are, you know, relationship persuasion um Well, we were talking, before we hit record, just about being active in life and how having an active lifestyle, what they're finding.

We're on the cutting edge of really finding some neat stuff about people.

I wish I could live another hundred years just to benefit from it all.

Hey, listen, depending on where the science goes, you might.

Yeah.

Who knows?

My kids are rolling their eyes.

Oh, my God.

No.

That's funny.

No, this is great.

And we'll have we'll reach out and see if we could get somebody from their team on the pod, too.

But you're right.

And I think the kind of.

It's so funny.

It's kind of like when you think about Taoism and like the study of like, the art of, like trying not to try somehow, like just going with that flow to better results in other aspects of our life.

It's really interesting to see how that same concept applies in interpersonal relationships, because you think about Newton's third law every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

When it comes to persuasion, a lot of times, the harder we push, the more resistance we get and people just are saying it's not about in their minds subconsciously, it's not about the idea, it's not about what it is that you're saying.

Is how you're saying it that me, as a human, i feel an innate drive to fight back in order to assert myself, to demonstrate to you and to me that I still have agency and autonomy in this situation.

And sometimes we push so hard that the only way that they feel as though they can assert themselves is by resisting, even if it is in their best interest to go with what you're saying.

Well, and it's true of really anybody over the age of two right, i mean your kids, right before kids are two, i mean it's like yeah whatever right, just give me a bottle, you know, change my diaper and but you know, at that point, terrible twos, they're really asserting themselves.

You know hey, i'm gonna do this.

Um, you know, but you know that's again, it comes down to patience and i have franchisees that i try to coach through this.

You know listen, i know what you want and i totally agree with what you want.

The best way to get it is not to try to get it.

You know, it's all no, Frank, you got to push them.

It's like, yeah, it's I'm just telling you.

And some of them wake up to it and realize, yeah, OK, I just need to I need to be understanding.

And some of them.

Keep learning the same lesson over and over and then blaming other people, right?

It's they're dumb, they're dumb.

Well, they're not, you know, maybe in this they are, but they're just.

You know they're, It's human nature and you're pushing their buttons in the wrong way.

Absolutely.

And let's let's stay on that, Frank, because I think it demonstrates something that I've seen a lot of times, too, is that sometimes people are too smart for their own good.

And what I mean is that they say to themselves, I have the right answer.

I have deemed myself the sole arbiter of truth in this interaction.

It's my job to educate the uneducated and let them know what the right answer is.

And then the uneducated air quotes now heavy air quotes as I'm saying this.

They push back, they resist.

And then the person who's educated says, you see, they're too dumb to absorb my brilliance.

The problem is them, not me.

But really, when you think about it, when you think about the science that you just shared and just the decades of psychological research,

Who's really the dumb one?

Because what you're doing is you're trying to persuade people in a way that is frankly unscientific, because the science demonstrates what works.

You know, because if you push too hard, you're too egotistical.

You don't give them an opportunity to agree without while still saving face.

Right.

There are just decades of psychological research that demonstrate that this super aggressive approach exists isn't scientifically sound.

And yet people are guided by their emotions and their ego, and it pushes them to approach it in this way.

And so I think a lot of times again.

We have to realize that, even though we will point the finger at other people, we have to take some responsibility for the quality of our conversations by recognizing that there is something that we can do.

We can adjust our approaches.

We just have to be humble enough to do it.

Yeah.

Well, in the end, that's all we can control is ourselves, you know, and it's We want to control other people.

We can't motivate them.

We can just kind of put things out there and hope that they you know, hope they take the right, the right path.

I mean, I've learned that with my kids.

I mean, they're my kids.

I have three kids.

They're all very different.

My oldest.

Well, they're all smart.

But my oldest is he's kind of a software developer and he cannot be sold.

Right.

You can't.

Hey, we should get this phone.

He's got he wants to look into it.

He wants to come to the conclusion that that's the phone, you know.

Um, and I've got other kids where you know my daughter.

It's like okay, if that's what you say, then we'll go with it.

You know, she might have opinions on other things, but they're just, they're different.

Are you familiar with the bank program?

Have you ever had people on about the bank?

Bank is an acronym.

Um, basically what it is, it's a, it's, it's, there's a basis in science for it.

But, uh, what this woman has discovered is that people have different buying personalities.

OK, yeah.

So some of us are.

You know, I know there's, you know there's.

What are some of the other behavioral science or behavioral assessments?

But this really has to do with approaching people differently based on.

What they're buying style is some people you can sell with.

Oh, it's great.

You'll make a million dollars.

Right.

And they're OK.

OK.

And that's how they buy.

For me, that's a total turnoff.

For me, it's got to be very organized.

I kind of need to see what it's about.

And my son is kind of a – he's a knowledge base.

So the bank is an acronym.

B is for blueprint, right?

Somebody who kind of approaches things very methodically.

The A is action.

They're the people like, oh, how much money can I make?

And the nurture person is more about –

You know, more about just kind of creating, creating community.

I guess, in your terms, you know the end.

You would sell an end person on hey, you know, my program will teach you how to get more out of situations and still have great friends.

You know the k person you would promote.

You would promote to them saying you know what this program really delves into, science and how the brain works to get people to do what you want them to do.

The b person would be yeah, we're going to step you through this course and we're going to take you through a and b and c and we'll do this and at the end you'll come out here.

And the A person would be like man, you're going to go in guns ablaze and you're going to come out with everything.

And so you have four different approaches to selling, and you figure out what people are on the front end before you go to talk to them.

And there's a lot of people put a lot of signals out there, certainly on LinkedIn, how people put their LinkedIn profiles.

In fact, this particular company has a tool that will take people's LinkedIn profiles and analyze them and say okay, this is this type of person.

Um, and I mean, it's not perfect.

It's humans.

It's never perfect, but there's certainly something to it.

So very interesting.

That's fascinating.

No, I've never heard of that, in particular, the bank approach.

But it makes a lot of sense.

And Frank, it's fascinating, too, because like you said, it's not perfect.

We're never going to be able to read.

Yeah, let me not say never.

Who knows where technology is going?

But at this stage, we're not able to read people perfectly.

But what we can do is become better with our analyses, right?

Yeah.

And so the more tools that we have at our disposal to filter through as we're analyzing people, the clearer we can get with our persuasive approach, our communication approach.

How I build rapport with you will be different from the way I build rapport with other people.

And I remember this saying.

I forget the specifics of it, but what they would say is well, if you had an hour to top, chop down a tree, how would you spend your time?

And they said well, i'd spend the first 50 minutes sharpening my axe.

Yeah right, right.

And i think, when we think about persuasion, a lot of times people are looking for a silver bullet, they're looking for magic tricks.

Use this simple trick.

It wins every time.

If anybody says that they're lying And if they're telling the truth, get them on the podcast.

We'll see.

But what we want to do is at the beginning, with our relationships, as we're building rapport throughout the conversation.

We're aiming

We're aiming.

Who is this person?

What do they want?

Why do they want it?

What really drives them?

How do I truly empathize with them and see it from their perspective?

And then, once I get a pretty solid analysis, now I can start shooting my shot, but at the same time not pushing too hard, because then I invite the resistance.

It's a really it's a really interesting blend of art and science when you put these things together.

Yeah.

Well, and like I say, it changes day to day.

It just changes on, I don't just how we're doing, you know, somebody's, somebody needs money.

Their approach to life is going to be different.

You know, you just, you don't know, or they're having a bad day or I don't know.

So it's all very interesting.

It's, It takes a lot of energy.

It takes a lot of energy to, you know, I have this conversation with my wife all the time.

She's here's a corporate job.

She's very successful.

It's a lot of spreadsheets.

And, you know, she interacts with three or four people pretty consistently.

And.

I say, yeah, I just I was on two podcasts today.

I'm exhausted, you know, because, you know, it's like, really, what's so tough about that?

But it's like you're on a podcast with somebody you've never been on before, or maybe on a Zoom call with people you don't know.

And we don't realize it, but our subconscious mind is trying to read everything that's going on.

And that just takes a ton of energy.

Communicating well and connecting at a high level takes a lot of energy.

And, you know, people expend energy differently.

But I've also run into some people who just seem to expend no energy when it comes to interacting with people.

I'm like, why aren't you analyzing anything?

And but again, I think it is the the burden that you carry, that of being an expert communicator because you see the world differently.

You're seeing the nuances, you're seeing the micro expressions, you're thinking about the on a subconscious level, like the psychology that you've seen in your own life, but also, since you're constantly studying, it's like oh, does this apply in this situation?

There's a lot happening beneath the surface for you to appear as calm, cool and collected as you are in these high level business meetings and podcasts, interviews too yeah, and so it is very, very exhausting if you're communicating well.

Yeah no it's, i feel it.

I feel it, you know, just have sometimes i just have to just go sit in the chair or go for a walk, you know, and just i'm just 10 minutes, i just need to kind of it's like, you know, we reboot a computer right to kind of get it functioning better.

It's kind of the same thing.

I just need to walk away and well, you probably talk about it and you know uh, with the American negotiation Institute is just telling people sometimes the best negotiation is just stop negotiating and walk away and just, you know, let things sink in.

Um, because people, people, people throw up roadblocks needlessly.

And then when they calm down, realize that, yeah it, you know we're not fighting over, we're fighting over something stupid.

You know yes, you know, i'm sure, like you know, marriages that break apart right, they just they get hung up on little things.

Just what principle?

Principle is a very expensive thing right, it's very expensive.

Yeah um, they get hung up on little things and if they can just calm themselves and just say okay, you know what it's, it's really not worth it.

You know, it's not worth it for the kids.

It's not worth it for us.

You know we're going to be paying attorneys more than this.

You know, whatever it, whatever it's worth.

Right.

You know, time at this, that the, uh, The timeshare, which was a bad decision to begin with.

Right.

It's really true, because imagine like imagine, if you're talking to a construction company and you say hey, can you build this house?

Describe the house.

I'll say, sure, we could build it.

OK, I want you to build it today.

Like all of it today.

Yeah, I want all of it today.

That's simply not possible.

Now let's bring it back to these difficult conversations.

Sometimes we are dealing with some big, hairy issues right, and we want to try to solve it all.

Today you're trying to.

You're trying to accomplish something that psychologically, is untenable.

It's impossible to get somebody to move that much with that level of emotionality in that period of time.

I remember one time coaching somebody through a difficult conversation that she was having and she was describing the situation And I was like all right, so we're going to approach this incrementally.

The first conversation, all you're going to do is you're going to listen.

You're just going to listen.

You're going to empathize.

And you're going to ask some probing questions.

They might not have the answer.

I don't want you to provide them with your answer or your version.

Just ask those questions.

And then just tell them you appreciated the time.

And then I want you to wait.

Then she called me like the next day.

She's like, yeah, I had the conversation yesterday.

And then they emailed me today and they changed their mind.

I didn't even push.

Exactly.

A lot of times we don't have to, but we have to remember that if we're trying to create a beautiful dish of persuasion, sometimes one of the most important ingredients is time.

And it goes back to what you said about patience too.

Yeah.

Well, that's I mean, that's it.

You know, it's we.

That's been if I look back at.

Relationships that I have not destroyed, but just created unnecessary tension in.

It's been lack of patience.

You know just.

You know, back when I had this blow up at Frisch's Big Boy in Dayton Ohio, it was just patience.

I should have just walked away and said you know I don't need a resolution to this today.

I'll come back and really think on it and, you know, come up with other arguments that you know.

You know another way to explain my position.

Maybe there's a middle ground where we both can get what we want.

I just knew what i wanted and he knew what he wanted and they were incongruent and you know he wanted a decision then and i didn't want to give a decision then, and you know.

And so the rest is the F word right.

So you know Frank, one of the things that I love about this story is that, like every time you tell it, there's more detail at that precious big boy in Dayton Ohio Monday, October 31st 2002.

It was a Wednesday.

It was Wednesday, Wednesday in the winter.

Um well, but I think you know that's where we just start.

You know we start beating ourselves up.

You know, we remember the bad things.

Um, And you know, I'm sure that's not the only bad thing, but it's certainly.

Certainly something comes to mind.

You triggered it.

I don't know for whatever reason.

Listen, that's that's what I do from time to time.

I've described as triggering from time to time.

But, hey, you know, it makes good podcast spotters.

Yeah, appreciate it.

Yeah, this is good.

Frank, it is always a pleasure, my friend.

This was phenomenal.

As usual, I appreciate you, and I appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom here.

Before you go, let the listeners know again about you, everything that you do, how they can get in touch and also give franchise information too, because the work that you do is incredible and you're creating communities in meaningful ways.

Yeah, I run an organization that connects small business types entrepreneurs, sales reps, professionals into weekly meetings where they learn about each other and they exchange referrals.

Um, you know, the best way to get a hold of me is i have a website frankagancom, and it's really kind of the central hub it's.

It'll take you to am spirit if you want to go to am spirit, but what i have found over the years is that not everybody is a good candidate for our program, but everybody needs help negotiating and i have.

We um, i have resources, other resources, books i've written that people can tap into and just, you know, go to frankagancom.

I'm starting to pull more stuff together on a website called networking-rxcom or networking hyphen rxcom, where i just i have there's some paid stuff there from paid videos, but there's just a lot of free information and um, i mean, relationships are everything it's they really are.

So 100.

My friend, I appreciate you.

Thanks again for coming on.

All right.

[Mastering Negotiation and Professional Growth: Insights from Experts]-[Strategic Networking Isn’t What You Think — It’s How Careers Are Made]

📋 Summary

Professional Mastery: Negotiation, Strategy, and Growth

The Four Pillars of Professional Success

Shifting from Scarcity to Abundance

The Art of Strategic Persuasion

Conclusion: The Synthesis of Strategy and Psychology

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Mastering Negotiation and Professional Growth: Insights from Experts]-[Strategic Networking Isn’t What You Think — It’s How Careers Are Made]

📋 Summary

Professional Mastery: Negotiation, Strategy, and Growth

The Four Pillars of Professional Success

Shifting from Scarcity to Abundance

The Art of Strategic Persuasion

Conclusion: The Synthesis of Strategy and Psychology

Deep Learning with ListenLeap

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

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