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Here's a negotiation skill that almost nobody practices.
That was it.
It's silence.
Not awkward silence.
Not I don't know what to say silence.
The kind of silence that keeps you calm while the other person talks themselves into the truth.
A lot of times they say negotiation is the art of letting them have your way, and in this episode we talk about how you can do just that.
My friend Varun Sharma explains why silence is power, especially in sales and business development, and how it helps you to control your reactions, stop chasing the outcomes and keep your confidence under pressure.
We also talk about what to do when you're dealing with someone aggressive, unfair and straight up playing games.
If you want to negotiate better without becoming colder, louder or more pushy, let's jump into this interview.
So Varun, I think a good place for us to start is by making it clear that you are not the typical negotiator.
Because we typically don't do super long backgrounds here.
And we're not going to go too long here.
But I think it's important for people to understand how you got to where you are.
Because that unique background informs your unique perspective on how to handle sales negotiation.
So thanks for the question, Kwame.
I'm happy to be here.
So for me, I think it started pretty early because my dad was in the military.
And we used to move around all the time.
So I ended up studying in 12 different schools.
My third grade, my dad had to move three times.
And since we had to move all the time, I didn't really know another way of life.
And I think that's when negotiating and settling into different environments really started for me.
And eventually I had the opportunity to go and study in Switzerland and that to hospitality and tourism in Lausanne.
And when I got that opportunity, I jumped on it.
I worked for a year before.
And you know, working in hospitality and tourism, I think, is one of the toughest environments, where you need to deal with people and emotions.
While you're completely exhausted, working 12 to 16 hour shifts, maybe sometimes even 18 and 20 hour shifts.
That I've done.
And that teaches you how to handle pressure and also at the same time keep smiling.
So I used to always joke around about how, between hospitality and being in the military with my dad, how being in hospitality is much harder because in the military you can still be grumpy and cry about it.
But in hospitality, you still have to be in front of guests and smile.
You know, so I think that's where it started.
That's amazing.
And where did you grow up to?
So mostly India in the early years.
But then my dad got stationed overseas with the UN.
So I traveled back and forth.
I was in Europe for a little while, went and lived in Dubai for a little while.
And, of course, eventually I was in Switzerland and now Estonia.
This is, we got james bond on this episode.
Man, this is amazing.
You're you're like an international man of mystery and i i really wanted to make sure that we started off with that background, because there's there's no other experts in this field with this unique background, so i wanted to make sure the, the listeners understood that, because it's not just the hospitality though, because that shows how you have the uh, like the, the people-centered approach.
You're incredibly warm and charismatic and And for the listeners.
We met in Amsterdam at the Mindvalley conference.
And I was immediately drawn to this guy.
He's amazing.
And so I wanted to have you on the show.
But tell us also about the work that you do in Estonia, where you were doing some of the government work too.
So after Switzerland, so let's start with the fact that I was working in hospitality.
And at one point, I realized that while I enjoy the environment, It's not very purpose driven.
And so I decided to look for purpose.
And that brought me into this fear of international relations, economic trade relations, things like that.
And I was back home in India visiting my parents, and at a business lunch which my uncle was organizing, I ended up bumping into the Estonian consul officer.
And he started telling me a lot of interesting things about Estonia, how it's the world's most advanced digital government.
It's the only country in the world where people vote online for national elections.
Skype, by the way, where all of this video conferencing started is an Estonian invention.
And it has the highest per capita startups in the world right now.
Also because it's a small country, but still.
So there was a lot of interesting things he told me.
And then at the end I was trying to really understand why he's pitching me the country and why are we there.
He said you know, you have this interesting background and you've been living in Switzerland and you speak a few languages.
We just established our embassy.
And I think you could be a good fit in helping us develop bilateral trade relations with India, Sri Lanka and Myanmar, because the embassy at the time was covering these three regions.
And I think I was 23 or 24.
And when I heard this opportunity, you know, I had to really control myself because I wanted to jump at it, because I was like hey, This is purpose driven.
Economics is really what the world sort of works on right now.
I mean, you see how trade economic policy is being weaponized in the world right now.
And I thought that's very interesting.
And, of course, at that age, when you're really building your profile, if you get an opportunity to work at an embassy and you're that young and you're getting this out of.
You know hospitality and tourism, it just sort of happened.
And I said yes.
Then I went for my interviews.
Long story short, I got in.
I started off as the trade and investment representative for the Estonians at the embassy in India, Sri Lanka and Myanmar.
And then I think three and a half months down the line, things were going pretty well.
So they made me head of trade and investment for the entire region um, and simultaneously, estonia launched something which is really unique and interesting in the world.
It's called e-residency.
It's the only program of its kind which allows anyone in the world to get a digital id card from the estonians.
And so you get this digital id card because it's connected to estonia's digital government platform, which has over 3 000 e-services.
You can establish a company online from anywhere in the world and run it in the EU single market.
Because every European Union country.
It's sort of like a single market, sort of how the US is for economic reasons.
And so when that started, then I was already helping them launch in India.
We developed a good relation with the founding team and other members, the core members of the team.
And later they offered me an opportunity to come and join them in Estonia.
And since I'd always been moving around, I had no problems.
I was like, yeah, let's do it.
This is sort of normal.
You know, I've been back home in India for about two years.
And why don't I move again?
So I moved.
And now it's been nine years that I'm here, not working for the government anymore.
But, you know, that's the sort of work I was doing.
So I joined them as the first Head of Partnerships.
It became a big thing.
Went to the World Economic Forum in 2018 to talk about the future of digital identification.
Started doing keynotes on other stages.
And, of course, doing many partnerships with the private and public sector to help grow this program and really democratize entrepreneurship.
So that was my real focus when I was working there.
Amazing.
Amazing.
So listeners, you see why we had to take some time to establish this background, because it is not intuitive.
You're not going to look at Barun and understand exactly how he got to where he is, but it just shows the key competencies you have when it comes to understanding people.
And so again, we have public, we have private, we have all these different countries that I'd be interested to explore when it comes to the art of deal making.
What are some of the surprising consistencies that you've seen across all of these industries?
The first one is being in check of your emotional reactions.
Think everyone has emotions, but being able to control your reactions is where the magic is.
I also think being able to structure things and really think things through from the other person's point of view is really important, and and and that's where the prep work is.
So I think that's what, in my mind, differentiates a good negotiator over an amazing negotiator that they can really understand what is the other side looking for.
And that obviously involves listening.
And I realize that a lot of negotiators and salespeople they're very much in love with their own voices.
So quite often, even though they are pretending to listen because they understand that you know consciously that it's important they're not really listening and processing it from a standpoint where they're like okay, how can I make this person win?
So good.
So let's talk about the emotions first and then let's get into the structuring the points, because there's a lot to unpack here.
When it comes to the emotional element.
Why do you think it is so tough for people to get this part down?
Because I think everybody listening to the podcast they understand that emotion management is important.
And yet there are moments when each of us will struggle in the moment during an actual conversation.
And again we have to remember.
For you, coming from hospitality, you couldn't show anything And but at the same time, not only were you feeling everything, but you were sleep deprived and overworked at the same time.
So all of those things make it much more difficult for you to manage your emotions.
How what holds people back from doing that effectively?
And what were you able to to do to overcome those challenges?
Okay so um, i think uh, it's kind of like training a muscle.
You know you, you need to practice more and more on on how to manage your emotions better.
Uh, there are some things, some which people might be aware of, some which might be new, which i will try to share now uh, which have really helped me.
But um, I think the first, most important thing is being comfortable with silence.
That really helps.
So in a conversation, if you can really just be silent for a while and wait and be uncomfortable because everybody wants to react.
I think that really helps.
Also, I feel and I've gone through this, too.
Right.
I can't handle my emotions all the time. either.
There are situations which are very triggering for a person and you will lose control of your emotions.
So if you're, I think if any of us is trying to say that we can have 100 control of our emotions all the time, then that's never going to happen, because we're human right.
And I think that's a good thing, because sometimes you do need your emotions to emerge beyond your emotional threshold, as they should right.
Otherwise you might also get taken for a ride if you're never really expressing your emotions right.
So I think you just have to establish a very strong and comfortable threshold for yourself until which you can control and handle your emotions and beyond which they should come out right.
Because maybe someone's crossing a boundary and you do need to react in that time and you don't have time to think.
So I think that's important to sort of differentiate between those two things.
But talking about handling emotions, I think, or let's put it like this.
Everybody will have emotions.
What you can control is the reaction.
So that's why I want to separate a little bit those two things.
Stop being emotionally overstimulated.
That's a really important thing.
So being constantly exposed to I don't know drama, even if it's just content or movies right, if you're watching too many movies which make your emotions go really high and really low, or you know, you're living in an extreme environment where the summers are Like they are in Estonia white nights, the sun never sets and the winters are absolutely depressing.
The three hours of daylight, that's not good.
So whatever is emotionally overstimulating you, I think try to reduce that.
That's the first thing.
And the other thing which is different and which really helped ground my emotions is disconnect from the outcome.
It's easier said than done.
But the way I started to disconnect from the outcome is I developed a very deep sense of faith in the universe, in God, in a higher power.
And why that helps you disconnect is when you're negotiating or when you're speaking to someone.
Even if you don't get the desired outcome, you know that things are still going to go right for you in the long term.
And so when you have that deep sense of trust, I think in general you'll be able to handle your emotions and your reactions actually in a much better manner.
There's so much to explore.
So much to explore.
Okay.
So we have, first of all, controlling the reactions, utilizing silence to gather yourself.
But at the same time recognizing that if somebody crosses a line, sometimes it is okay, appropriate and sometimes necessary to let that go.
But what's important to recognize is that you're doing that with intentionality. right?
I think about emotions kind of like nuclear energy.
So nuclear energy can be really powerful.
It can power a city cleanly.
And then it could also blow up and vaporize everybody, right?
And so with that nuclear energy, you have to say to yourself okay, how do I use this in a clean and effective way to generate the right type of energy?
So take that time, you pause, you slow down and realize okay, I need to focus, keep that smile on and re-enter the conversation.
Or sometimes, hey, This person is crossing a line.
I've got some energy for you.
And we're going to make sure that you respect that boundary.
And the other thing that you said, which I think was incredibly terrifying and disheartening for people, was recognizing hey listen, you're probably overstimulated when it comes to negative energy.
Think about that's the essential purpose of social media.
If they don't get you to feel things, then you're not going to stay on the platform.
And so we are hyper exposed to lots of toxicity, lots of conflict emotionality, in ways that don't move us forward.
So we need to think about what our daily appetite is for this negativity, because it will translate into other areas of your life.
You know, just it's just how the brain will work.
And then the I think a big part I want to take some time to, to go deeper in this is disconnecting from the outcome because, especially when you think about the Western mentality as it relates to business and life, it's always outcome oriented, very effortful and driven toward the outcome.
And so I think for a lot of people it's hard to reconcile the fact that you're here teaching us how to negotiate effectively and the fact that you have negotiated exceptionally well in all of these industries.
And at the same time, you've gotten great outcomes while being disconnected from the outcome.
So can you help us to reconcile this?
Because I think a lot of people are confused but intrigued.
So where should we start?
Let's start maybe with the social media and all of the stimulus that we have exposure to right now.
I think I was having this conversation with a friend the other day and we were talking about you know she was like I constantly keep ending up in these situations where, you know, certain negative things happen around me.
And I said, you know where you should start?
Because this is where I started about three years ago.
I said, start listening to better music.
I said, you may like the music and the melody and the rhyme.
I said, but have you actually tried listening to the words and what they're saying?
And then she said, you know, I recently started doing that and I realized how negative it is.
I said, it's influencing you.
And it used to influence me.
I just.
I found one track, you know, when I was in Denver on a trip, and it was some kind of Christian rock, pop music, but it sounded really good.
And it was also very meaningful.
And I was like, listen, this is great.
And then from that, I started looking for, you know, similar music.
It's not all it doesn't have to be religious.
Yeah, that's not where I'm going with this.
But I just started finding similar music, which was positive as well, you know, with the lyrics.
Right.
And started listening to a lot of progressive trance when I'm in the gym.
So Armin Van Buren is always on my playlist.
And that's uplifting.
That's taking you in a different direction and it helps you visualize things better.
And so it's a combination of many things.
Also stop watching dystopian movies all the time.
I know they're great and they sound amazing, but if you keep doing the same thing that everyone else is doing, you're going to have the same life.
It's that simple.
So, I think, being mindful and becoming more and more mindful as time goes by, around what you're surrounded with.
And it obviously also goes down to the company you keep.
You know, they say a man is best known by the company he keeps.
So that's very important, obviously.
But I think that's already been talked about quite a bit.
But these other aspects, they're micro-influences, right?
And they really color our perspective when we talk to people.
You may be negotiating with someone and you might be suspicious because you've been watching a lot of James Bond movies recently right,
Yeah.
And and you're like, why am I so suspicious all the time?
Because if that's the energy you go in with, that's what you will find.
Right.
Yeah.
So I think yeah, just being mindful of what you surround yourself with, go with the best intentions and
Disconnecting from the outcome, I don't mean, you know, don't look for the outcome.
Like, of course, you're going in there with some objectives.
Right.
Otherwise, you're just negotiating things without a name, which is the worst thing anyone can do, because you're wasting everybody's time.
Right.
But I would say go in with an objective but be okay with the fact.
Even if it doesn't work out, something better will come along.
Right.
Or, you know, it's not end all be all.
If this doesn't work out, then you'll go back and maybe come up with a completely new proposal, and And then things will work out.
But through the process, you always learn something.
So that's really important.
I think those two things.
So you need to ground yourself somehow that my emotions are not connected to the outcome, but the outcome is important.
100 percent.
This brilliantly articulated, because you're so right, because what you're recognizing is the the work that is required to negotiate effectively starts well before the negotiation.
Yes.
Right.
Because you're doing what's required to put yourself in a positive mental state to manage your emotions effectively.
So you're not overdosing on negativity and negativity problematic perspectives before going into the conversation.
But then also when it comes to these negotiations, we are objective driven.
We have our values.
We have our goals, that we're driving toward while, at the same time, we are not going to break down emotionally if we don't reach our outcome.
And it does come down to faith and faith in a higher power works.
We have faith in our skills.
We have faith in the positioning of our careers and we have faith in our ability to adjust and adapt because, at the end of the day, all of it is data.
It's data.
If I go into this negotiation and I get the outcome that I want, great.
I got some data.
Now, if I go into it and I don't get the outcome that I want, that's fine.
I'm going to collect the data and figure out where I need to go next.
Because the negotiation really never ends when you think about it with the right mindset.
This particular interaction might end.
This opportunity might end.
But when we're thinking about the negotiation of life, we're just trying to position ourselves for the next best move that we can make.
So we need to collect the data, see what did you do well, try to do more of that.
What mistakes did you make?
Try to accept that and learn from it and not make the same mistake twice.
And also recognize that you could still perform perfectly and not get the outcome that you want, and that's okay too.
Because if we can again emotionally disconnect from the outcome and learn to accept it while still driving towards our goals, that is the sweet spot.
Because it leads us to negotiate with undue amounts of pressure.
Because if I feel like I need this deal in order to be well or survive...
Then I negotiate like my life's on the line.
And then I might make ethical shortcuts.
I might make inappropriate concessions.
And ultimately, I might force a deal that never should have happened.
I couldn't have put it better.
I agree 100% with everything that you said.
And I think there's two important things, right?
So there has been this thing which has been said around how negotiate, as if your life depended on it.
And there are people who negotiate like that.
But if you actually ask them, you know it's not that they're negotiating with their life depending on it.
They're negotiating because they recognize it's other people's lives depending on it.
Right.
Right.
So I think that's the difference.
And I think that's important to know because even if you're representing an organization, your family whatever,
There are other people who are depending on the outcome.
So do it for them.
And I think that helps to somehow ground you a little bit, because you feel responsible towards other people.
There might be situations in which you're negotiating as if your own life depended on it.
But I think That takes a different kind of training for people to sort of manage their emotions.
And we won't go into that zone.
But that's more like if you're in the FBI or you're working in the military and you learn how to.
If you're taken hostage, then you learn how to negotiate.
But that's really different.
And so you can't exactly transmute everything from all sectors.
I think that's important to understand.
If you're in sales...
You know, if you're in tech sales, there's a certain way to negotiate.
If you're in hospitality sales, there's a different way of negotiating.
Right.
And also what you're looking for.
So I think it's also a bit more nuanced, and recognizing those nuances is very important, because that's when you can be really well prepared for a certain specific kind of negotiation.
And when you feel that you're prepared, you're confident.
Right.
And when you are confident and you go in there, you feel less emotional or less unstable.
Right.
So preparation beforehand understanding who you're going to meet, what it's going to involve, understanding the deal, looking out for contingencies.
I think that's where the lion's share of the work really lies.
I agree 100%.
And I want to transition a bit to sales negotiation in particular, because you're doing some incredible negotiations and deals right now in the private sector.
Let's start off by talking about some of the recent work you've been doing as it relates to business development and the company you're with.
And then we can talk about how you approach those business development sales type of negotiations.
Yeah, so I have my own company.
I do consulting and help with business development and sales.
You know different companies.
For the past three years, I've been focusing more and more on sustainability.
One of my major clients right now is in the hydrogen space.
So you were talking nuclear.
Hydrogen is equally flammable.
And the other thing that I'm doing is organizing a conference on sustainability.
It's the largest in Northern Europe, together with other people.
And so I've been trying to be more focused on that because, once again, purpose and the results of doing anything in sustainability is scientifically measurable.
So it's very easy to see, you know, the difference that you're making.
But coming back a little bit to negotiating in the space, it's all very new and negotiations are often very hard.
And what I would say the process for me and also for other people in negotiating has been is mostly focused on building a relationship.
Right.
So I think you cannot negotiate with someone if they don't trust you.
You can try, but if there is no foundation there, I think it's going to be a very rough and hard negotiation where one or the other party will always feel that they're on the losing end.
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Right.
So I think establishing trust and building a relationship, that's the first most important thing.
And once again it brings us back to being a good listener, really understanding what is the other side really looking for.
What are their challenges?
Because, just taking an example, right what we're doing right now, to buy a diesel generator, for example, versus a hydrogen power generator, a diesel generator would cost probably three times less.
Right.
But the reason that they would be interested in buying a hydrogen fuel cell generator is because of course, there's all the zero emissions etc.
But it always comes down to the cost, right?
Because we're living in a world right now where markets are volatile, trade policy is volatile.
Nobody really knows what's going to happen.
And so you have to sit with them and convince them, because it's true that, over the next six years, the cost of a diesel generator and a hydrogen fuel cell is going to be the same right.
But to get to that point where they really want to listen to you and they're willing to dive deeper into the numbers and, you know, go through all of that you obviously have to create some level of trust.
Otherwise, you can present all your numbers and they'll come back with numbers that will challenge your numbers, and you can keep going around.
And there's always a way to do that, right?
I was working in economic negotiations.
We were sitting and negotiating tax agreements, treaties between two countries.
And there's always something that the other side wants, and there's always something you want, right.
But the only way that you can really get your way through and I really had this situation is when someone goes.
You know what Varun, I like you.
We've been at this for some time.
You know the other person really, you form a relationship with them and when they like you, then they're willing to give you a little bit of what they want, and you have to be respectful enough that you don't take everything right.
So it's very important, even if the other party is going down that route, maybe they're tired, maybe maybe they have, maybe they like you a lot and they're just.
You know, maybe you've had a few drinks right And now they're like you know what.
It's all good.
You know, let's sign on the dotted line.
But it's your responsibility to be like, no, you know, I wanted this to be fair for both of us.
I want it to be a win-win.
And so this is what is really important to me.
And this is what is really important to you.
And you should know that, right?
If you don't know what is really important to you, I think that's also a big problem.
If you think, no, no, what I want is all of it. then you're not negotiating.
Absolutely.
And let's dig into this too, because this is something that I believe but I don't think is shared enough when we're talking about negotiation and sales, because I think some people might come into this with the mentality of my goal is to extract as much value as I can from the other person.
Like some kind of money-seeking mosquito, just drain all of the value out of the other person.
And they don't care about the well-being of the other side.
But it sounds like your philosophy is vastly different, because not only do you care a lot about what it is that you hope to accomplish, at the same time you care about them and you don't want to take advantage of them, even if you could.
So I want you to talk to any ruthless capitalists out here who might be shocked at that mentality.
You know, what goes around comes around, right?
In one or the other way, you might win a lot in business, but you'll lose out on relationship if that's how you want to train yourself to be.
So a lot of ruthless capitalists have great professional lives and business lives, but they have really crappy personal lives.
And that's the reason, because if you become a certain way, it will trickle over to other aspects of your life.
So I think it's important that you're a strong negotiator, but you're a long-term negotiator.
You're not negotiating five deals with these guys, take everything, and then that's it.
If you are able to establish the level of trust that I'm, you know, always trying to with certain people.
And sometimes it doesn't work, honestly.
But if you if you manage to do that most of the time, I think you win respect, you win friends.
And that is a very important part of negotiation because all of us are moving around.
You know, I used to work in hospitality so many years ago.
I was working in government at some point at a very high level.
Now I'm working in the private sector and I'm in sustainability.
So you never know who ends up where, right?
So I think keeping this long-term perspective is really important.
You can be a shark if you want to, but it won't really get you too far.
And I would say, Forgetting, let's say, something like Shark Tank where they're all playing roles.
It's not real.
I mean, it is, but it's not.
In real life, I'm pretty sure they're not negotiating the way you see them on TV.
It's not as entertaining.
And this is something we really need to understand, because if they'd been screwing people over constantly,
At some point those people would come after them when they get really famous and really rich and everything.
Right.
So you want people to support your growth, instead of look at yourself later when you are doing well and be like how can I bring this person down?
Because they wronged me or they took too much, or because, even if people don't say it to you now, you know what you did and they feel it.
Right.
And that's the important thing.
I mean, sometimes it might happen.
You might be in a corner with a lot of pressure from management to perform and deliver results.
Yeah, it can happen.
And that's totally fine.
But what is the general approach you take most of the time?
It's really important because it's going to influence every other aspect of your life.
You're so right.
You're so right.
I think a lot of times, when we focus on just extracting as much value as possible from the other side, it's very short term thinking, because they're going to recognize that at some point.
They're going to realize that.
And they'll either A choose not to do business with you ever again or, B they'll go out of their way to do business with you.
To get back at you
You know, it's like, OK, but I remember what you did.
I remember actually I was doing a negotiation training one time and a guy was telling a story.
He was in procurement and he said they had a good relationship with one of their suppliers.
But then the market shifted and now there's only one company in the industry that supplied this.
This widget, whatever it is that they needed for production.
So it was a single source situation.
And so he remembers that the person from the other company called and said hey, we're increasing our prices 10 percent.
There's nothing you could do about it.
If you don't do it, we're going to stop shipping, and now you won't be able to produce the machinery that you need.
And so he said, please don't do this to us.
Don't do it.
And he did it.
And people listening might say this doesn't sound at all realistic, but it is.
This happens all the time in the procurement space.
And yes, there are contracts.
But the thing is it takes a long time for the law to come in and address and enforce the contract in the right way.
The business damage would have already been done months before.
And so they had to pay more.
Now, fast forward a couple of years and the market shifted again.
And he said, I was so excited to pick up the phone and call that guy.
And the first thing he said when he called him was you remember two years ago when you got him back?
And that's the thing.
It's unsustainable.
When you go out there creating bad vibes by taking advantage of people, treating them inappropriately, they will remember that and they'll try to get back at you and they will tell their friends not to do business with you.
So you might not even fully understand the way that you have shifted the market as it relates to yourself.
Because, going into the negotiation now, the new person you're talking to has already heard those rumors and it completely changes the way that they interact with you.
So I think it's really important to fully appreciate this.
And I know though, you've also had times where you have your ethos that you bring into the conversation.
You focus on the relationship.
You focus on trust.
And now you're going against one of those sharks who say, Varun, forget that.
My job here is to take advantage of you.
So how do you handle those situations when you have this approach but the other side isn't playing ball?
Interestingly enough, you were already getting to this point and I was already thinking about it, because I'm going through a negotiation like that right now.
And The easiest way is always to first remain completely professional.
What I mean by that is, after a certain point, if you feel the emotional approach in such a situation.
When I say emotional, I really mean being sympathetic empathetic, really being like listen, what are we really looking for?
Let's get together.
Let's figure out a solution.
That's step one, right?
If you're having a hard time negotiating a contract, getting to a place where you can both see eye to eye say look, we're both people.
Why don't we get together?
Let's have a cup of tea.
Let's have a drink, whatever works for you.
And let's try to figure this out and find a win-win for everyone, right?
If that doesn't work, the second thing is remove the emotions right and negotiate purely based on the style that you see them negotiating.
And if it's being contractual and legal, then you do that, right?
And you need to be strong at these things, right?
So it's kind of like, I don't know, being an MMA fighter, right?
If you have your skills, you can't just be good at one martial art because it's mixed martial arts.
So you need to master different, different skills, and so, if it's legal, then you need to have that eye for detail, you need to understand the law, you need to consult other people and you need to prepare a very comprehensive reply so the other side understands uh, that you're a heavyweight.
You're not a lightweight right yes, and?
And it's showing them very softly, because when you start going down this road and i have also um, screwed up in the past when you go down this road especially, i think this is a thing between men um, we get into our egos right, so i'm stronger than you are.
I don't need you um, and so i'm gonna try and get everything that i want, because you're trying to screw me over, right?
Yeah um, and it's very hard to center yourself.
So you need to take some time, maybe talk to people who are close to you, because they help ground you and center you, and then, when you're finally there, then you understand that i don't need to be like this person.
Them wanting whatever they want doesn't speak anything about me as a person, does not make me weak, right um?
And it's just that this is a, And I'm going to negotiate as I would any other deal.
Right.
So I think that's very important.
And then finally, if things aren't going the right way and you feel you're being taken advantage of, you have two choices.
Right.
One is you walk away.
And normally that is possible.
And you walk away and it's fine.
It might be the biggest deal for you today, but in two years it'll be maybe the fourth biggest right.
So I think that's important.
The other thing is, if it's really something that they've wronged you, then you need to explore your options.
What are your options?
Are you going to get the lawyers involved?
Is there going to be some kind of arbitration?
And the most important thing I think through this process is there will be times when different emotions will sort of come over you.
So there'll be a little bit of fear.
There'll be a little bit of, you know, moments of, let's say arrogance, where you feel I'm going to do this and I can make it happen.
And I think there will also be a moment when you're angry, right?
Because you can clearly see what's going on and you feel like the other party may not recognize your talent, your intelligence, your goodness.
And that's okay, but that's on them.
That's not on you.
So handling the emotional part and having your options clearly laid out in front of you and also having alternatives to you know, saying If I don't walk away, then this happens.
You need to have that whole game plan in front of you.
I'm the kind of person who normally visualizes it.
But I would say for most people, sit down and draw things out.
I think that would really help.
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I agree this is powerful, because This goes back to what you talked about before about preparation.
So you're actually mapping this out.
You're thinking about it almost like an athlete too, where they visualize the conversation beforehand.
So what if it goes this way, that way?
So you felt like you've already been there before to a certain extent.
And I love the idea of during that preparation, this is just...
Using the BATNA, understanding your BATNA, your best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
So if this doesn't work out, then what are my alternatives?
What will I do?
And the way to find confidence in these tough situations is just simply asking this question.
How will I find a way to be okay?
And if you can't answer that question and your feeling of being okay, feeling safe, feeling successful, feeling worthy is completely in the hands of the other side, then you've already lost.
It's game over, because then now there's a massive discrepancy in need because, for whatever reason, you've attached your value and self-worth to this outcome that's in the hands of this other person.
And now you're going to be more willing to make inappropriate concessions to get the outcome that you feel like you need.
So this process of actually writing out your alternative so you know beforehand is going to be very important.
It gives you so much more confidence because at the end of the day, even if the person is disrespecting you, mistreating you in the negotiation, you can sit back and say I don't need this person.
I already know what I'm going to do if they don't show up.
Right.
And then I like the fact that we're staying professional through all of this.
The way that I think is like if I'm negotiating, I'm negotiating as if I'm emailing them.
And if I'm emailing people, I assume that everybody's going to see it.
In my mind, there's no such thing as a confidential email.
So I pretend like people are watching.
So people can't say, oh, Kwame said this or did this or anything.
No, I want to be completely unassailable.
And you'd never know who's recording to.
But when you do all these things too, you are you're making sure that you're approaching it in a way that is sustainable, that is strategic.
And you're not taking things personally, because a lot of times if you're dealing with somebody who utilizes bad behavior, who is aggressive, who's a bully, who's mean, they often leverage that pressure against you in, in.
In a weird way, they are actually merchants of peace.
So here's what I mean.
So they're saying hey listen, what I'm going to do is I'm going to take your peace, and now it's mine.
I am going to put you in a terrible position.
But if you give me...
That which I want, I will give you that which you want, which is your peace.
So yes, I'm going to bully you, but it's temporary.
Just give in and I'll give it to you, right?
And so if you can manage your emotions under that level of duress, then you take away one of their biggest points of leverage.
And you're helping them to recognize, hey, listen, those tactics... don't work with me.
This is the deal that I need.
This is the data.
This is how we're going to approach it.
I'm still going to be incredibly professional despite your bad behavior.
And if you act poorly, then I'm either going to walk away or I'm going to utilize one of my alternatives.
Yeah.
I think.
So, maybe going a little bit back from what you were saying, I totally agree with everything, but I think laying out everything really clearly for the other person, I think a lot of people they hold things back nowadays when they're talking and negotiating because we're not really used to being very straightforward when we sit down.
And I think, when you are extremely straightforward, radically straightforward, that this is why I'm here.
I don't work like this.
If this happens, I walk away.
You've already set... the negotiating standard, which I think is really, really important.
And it normally always will work.
Of course, there are always cases where it might not, but we will always rely towards what might always work.
And I think this is really important.
Just being radically honest.
This is what works for me.
This is a complete no-go.
And then you negotiate.
And for the other party normally, because they're not used to listening to people who are really, really straightforward.
They're already like I, like this person.
They're straight with me.
Let's have a conversation and let's be honest.
And it's already building trust.
Oh, that's fascinating.
OK, go deeper on this because you're you're right.
I think a lot of times people are there's fear involved, but also we kind of have this culture of trying to be some maybe sometimes politically correct or nice and kind of beat around the bush without being direct.
So go deeper, because I think this is very surprising, especially because, like you said, people often play their cards very close to their chest.
They don't want to share this information.
But you found the opposite.
The more transparent and clear you are, the better.
So let's explore this deeper.
Yes.
So before we go there, there's two other things I want to say.
One is you should always just ask yourself, what is the worst that can happen?
Because I do that. right until the time you're not going to be out on the street or you know it's not it's not really coming down to survival then you're okay if it is coming down to survival then it's not time to negotiate anymore it's time to fight right so so i think that's something really important you need to recognize and and there's there's a time and place for negotiation but after a certain point you have to take a different approach you know um and I would also say that once again, when you are negotiating with someone, especially when it's a hard negotiation, you don't need to come back with a response too quickly.
You don't need to reply to that email that you just received because it's triggering too quickly.
If you're sitting across them and they're asking, so what do you want to do?
You don't need to tell them what you want to do right away.
That's just a question.
You can always decide to go back and be like, you know, I need some time to think.
I'll get back to you.
Because when you ground yourself the emotion, you know the charge the emotions have on you.
It sort of dissipates.
It becomes much easier.
And then you start being more creative.
Right.
So sometimes you may give a proposal to someone and they may come back with a counterproposal, but you're still negotiating along the same lines.
But maybe sometimes you can go back, be creative, come up with a completely new proposal.
And then they're like, OK, everything that we were speaking about before is gone.
Maybe this is easy.
Maybe this is something I like.
Right.
I've done that and that works.
But where were we?
You wanted to go deeper into.
Yes.
Radically honest.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I think you.
It also goes a little bit from person to person.
If you feel someone is overly guarded, they're not opening up, try maybe dropping a little bit of radical honesty and see how they react.
If they still don't open up, then maybe you have to be a little bit guarded.
But you can be politically correct and be radically honest at the same time.
Hmm.
So you can be diplomatic and still be very honest why you're there and what are your boundaries, and what would be a good win for you, what would not be a good win for you?
Really upfront.
And I think when you have those clear for yourself and you go into a negotiation, it's anyway going to come out at some point.
So I think it's important that you already let the other side know in the beginning, because then you save everyone time.
And the more time you spend negotiating, the more it leads generally to frustration.
So at least on your part I'd say always try and not get to that point that it gets frustrating for everyone.
So that's why radical honesty in certain situations will work.
In certain situations you may be forced to be I don't know, for lack of better words politically guarded.
Right.
And when that's the case, then sure you know you can do that, but it's probably a group of people negotiating with a group of people, which generally happens in governments, with delegations and stuff like that.
And so, At some point, one of the people from each group needs to sit next to each other and really figure everything out.
Right.
That's just the way it goes.
Groups of people cannot really negotiate with groups of people.
I don't I've not really seen great success with that.
So.
Yeah, you're right.
And that's something that comes up from time to time talking about the group dynamics, because the psychology is completely different.
The strategy is completely different.
So in your experience because I know when you were doing in the government work, you had to have some situations where you had multi-party negotiations or group negotiations with multiple stakeholders.
What were the biggest differences in those scenarios between that and like a one-on-one type of negotiation?
I think when you have a group negotiation, the first thing you need to understand and if you're both good at negotiating as countries or as organizations or whatever it might be you need to recognize who does the group listen to, because there will always be someone the group listens to.
Right.
And who does the group rely on for feedback?
Because normally the ones they listen to are not the ones that are being the devil's advocate.
So there's always in a group negotiation you'll have someone who the group listens to.
What we should negotiate on how we should move forward.
But then there will always be someone who will challenge what is being discussed within the group.
And I think, when you recognize those two, it's really important that you address the relevant points to each party.
Right.
And I remember when we were in Amsterdam, you were leaving, you were flying out the next day.
I said something to you and that's when this idea and the whole thing you know let's do, the podcast came around.
I said the one thing that I learned, and it's especially true when it comes to group environments, because I'm sitting and negotiating with my peers right.
So the one thing I don't want is to be put down or look bad, right?
So it's very important in general in negotiations, don't try to be right, right?
Just try to listen to the other person and they will already like you.
And that is why you will win a negotiation.
If you try to be right in a negotiation, you've already lost, especially a group negotiation, because then you make yourself look good in front of your peers, which is great.
But in terms of the negotiation, you just made the other guy look bad.
And now somewhere in his subconscious, he has it out for you.
So he's going to try and challenge you because now it's turning into a sparring match, right?
It's not really a negotiation anymore.
It's turning into a fight.
Right.
So recognizing that this is this a negotiation or is this a fight is very important, because you can also try to move things back.
You know, from From having a sparring session where everyone's trying to be right to having a negotiation where everyone's listening and trying to figure out okay, this doesn't work for us.
That doesn't work for you.
What can we do to make this work?
Maybe we'd be creative and we create a completely new proposal, right?
Mm-hmm.
So I think that's what my learning so far has been.
It's brilliant.
And I especially like what you said about it's not a negotiation.
Sometimes it becomes a fight at that point when you're focused on being right.
And it's important to recognize that dynamic and then turn it back into a negotiation if possible.
Because you might not be the person who started the fight.
They might be focused on being right.
And you have to focus on being productive in the conversation.
And I see, Simone, you unmute it.
Can you go deeper on that and explain a little bit more to our audience?
How is that possible that by proving the other party that we are right, we can actually lose the negotiation?
What happens in the mind of the other person?
How can you explain that?
Well, not so long ago with one of my recent clients, we started negotiating on...
They wanted me to take two weeks off because they hadn't received funding.
And I was telling them that this is not right because it's non-contractual.
Because as per the contract, you need to give me a 30-day notice.
I haven't planned anything.
And this was one day before I'm supposed to take these two weeks off.
And they're like yeah, but you know it's summer holidays right now and it'll help us a little bit with the funding and all of that.
And I said, look, in any case, I have been working hard.
I'll figure something out.
I understand.
And.
But what I would like is that later, once season is on, then you give me the opportunity to make up for this time and you don't actually take it off my monthly retainer.
Right.
And that was OK.
So I didn't try to be right.
And and, you know, that was my first instinct.
Right.
And a lot of times your first instincts can be very wrong.
So always question that.
OK, this is my first instinct because I want to be right.
But is there a better way that I can reach an agreement, keep the relationship alive and move ahead?
Right.
So there I still got what I wanted. right?
But I also was able to help my client out and it it made them understand that I can be helpful and understanding in ways that are not just written, you know, in the contract.
Um raised my level of respect in their eyes.
Uh, although they're still behaving horribly now, but that's a different couple.
Right.
But, But in that moment and for that time.
So as a result of that, what happened is because I was being understanding and helpful.
They also said listen, we understand.
And since we still owe you some money from before, because it had been, I think, two months that they weren't able to pay me because they were waiting for the new funds to come in.
They said, we'll offer you interest on top.
And I didn't have to ask for it.
Because I said, look, I've literally become a creditor or an investor in the company.
And while I love working here, I love what we do.
It's very meaningful.
It's making things hard for me to continue like this.
So they came back with a counter proposal.
And that's what happens when you don't try to screw people over, when you try to have good negotiations with them.
Having said that, once again, there will be times when you cannot do this.
And it's important to recognize that, because I feel you don't need to bend over backwards to really be in this spot.
So don't be so focused on what can I do to always help someone else if it's at the cost of you being able to breathe And survive right?
Right.
I think it's important to recognize that as well.
Yeah, I agree 100%.
It's a perfect example because you could win the argument, lose the negotiation.
You could have focused on the contract and said no, I'm contractually obligated to get paid this day.
You owe me this money now.
But then you say, OK, there's some kind of constraint.
If you could pay me later, that'd be great.
And so you were able to work that out.
But then, at the same time, logging this, collecting data, to saying OK well, is this the partner I want to work with?
And we might be collecting more data saying maybe, perhaps not.
But you use the negotiation tools there to turn what would have been a fight or an argument into a negotiation where you focused on the future to get it done.
And it's a great example of how that works.
And you did it in a way that managed the relationship.
When you think about the folks out there who are negotiating these deals and they're trying to make sure that they can level up because I know we're coming up on time what would you say is the number one thing that they can start practicing today that could make them a better negotiator?
I'd say the number one thing that would make you a better negotiator is having an awareness of your reactions, right?
I'm not even saying control them anymore.
I'm saying be aware that now I'm reacting.
Now I'm getting triggered.
Now I want to be right.
Now I'm fidgeting with my, I don't know, fingers.
I think being aware is really important.
I think that's where it starts.
So if you want to start somewhere, increase your level of awareness.
When you're in a negotiation, are you nervous?
Are your palms cold and sweaty?
How are you feeling?
Are you confident?
Have you prepared well enough?
If you're not able to do research, work on that.
Maybe your negotiation isn't about actually being in the room and maintaining a certain tone of voice and looking the other person in the eye and all of that.
Maybe you're great at that, right?
Maybe for you, what's important is getting better at the research and the pre-prep, right?
So that you're ready when you go in there and then you feel confident.
So I think it's important to be aware, like why is your negotiation currently not working?
And if it's all of it, which can be true for some people, then just go out and try to have a negotiation.
Because then you'll start finding out what you need to work on.
Oh, this is so good.
Varun, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Before you go, remind the listeners about how they can get in touch with you and the work that you do.
Sure.
So anyone who wants to get in touch with me can reach out to me by just writing Varun Sharma my full name, Estonia on LinkedIn.
I think the best place to reach out to me is on LinkedIn right now.
And I'm helping companies, businesses improve on negotiation and train sales teams and really, you know, work with more and more ethical businesses that can do net positive for the world.
So if you're in the oil business, I'm not really interested in working with you.
But if you're working in something sustainable mental health, you know, maybe some kind of wellness product more than happy to help you.
Amazing.
Varun, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thanks a lot, Kwame.
Really happy to have been here.
