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Depending on where you are at in your career and which generation you are a part of.
You may have the experience of what the workplace was like before technology really hit the workspace.
And even though it's evolving so quickly, you are likely going to be needed in the workplace a whole lot longer than you may wanna be working, because you're gonna be the person that is gonna have to bridge the gap when the tech stops working.
because tech always stops working.
Hey, I'm Kwami Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Today on Negotiate Anything, tech strategy expert Tiffany Rosick reveals how to transform challenging workplace conversations into opportunities for growth.
With over 20 years advising C -suite executives, Tiffany shares battle -tested strategies for leading confidently through uncertainty, managing emotional dynamics in high -stakes discussions, setting effective boundaries and costly mistakes to avoid.
Drawing from her upcoming book, That's Not the Help I Need, Real Talk for Women About Winning at Work, Tiffany offers practical wisdom for strategically pacing conversations to maximize your influence.
Whether you're navigating a digital transformation or advocating for yourself in the workplace, don't miss out on these actionable insights for enhancing your negotiation outcomes in today's dynamic business environment.
Tiffany, thanks for joining us today.
Oh, it's so great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yes, it's our pleasure.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure, my name is Tiffany Roszak.
I am the CEO of TGR Management Consulting.
It is a boutique consulting company that I started eight years ago, so back in 2017.
And we focus on technology strategy and operations, mainly for medium sized companies.
And so if I were to decode all those fancy words, a lot of companies struggle where their technology and their operations meet.
So they could have implemented a new CRM or ERP or any other mission critical business solution, and they don't feel like they're getting the value out of it.
That's usually where we step in.
Amazing. And I know the work that you do is incredible and you are also a newly minted author.
Can you tell us about the book too?
I am, thank you for bringing that up.
I often forget to tout that, but I am also an author.
So I recently wrote a book called That's Not the Help I Need, Real Winning for Women at Work.
and it's focused on some of the unique challenges that women have in the workplace.
We talk about things like decoding performance reviews, negotiating better opportunities, whether it's in job or in salary, and how we manage our way through some difficult conversations, for example, layoffs, or even disclosing that you need to leave of absence for medical reasons.
Amazing. This is an incredible book, very necessary, and one of the many things that I know is covered in the book is the ability to set boundaries.
And one of the things that I've recognized when it comes to setting boundaries is that most people struggle with it in one way or another.
So you have people who are afraid to set boundaries and then people will trample upon their boundaries.
And then there's some people who are like, man, I love setting boundaries, hmm, what does that mean?
And then they have no problem with people encroaching.
They just destroy people in the process.
It's like, we have to find that Goldilocks zone.
So let's first talk through some of the misconceptions that people have about setting boundaries, because I think there is a lot of perceptions and biases and thoughts that we might have about what is required to do it, and then those can turn into self limiting beliefs that hold us back from actually doing it or doing it effectively.
So what are some of the misconceptions about setting boundaries, and then we'll get into how to actually do it?
I think one of the biggest ones is that by saying no, if you tell somebody no, it means you're not being a good team player, you're not a good employee, or maybe you're perceived as being difficult or insubordinate.
And that is, it's just not true.
However, there are ways in which to say no that come across differently.
So it's not necessarily about what you say, it's how you say it.
I think this is huge.
And going to that first point that you made about you don't want to come off as a team player, there seems to be a bit of an identity element of this.
where okay, I know what I do not want to be seen as but then we don't really stop to ask ourselves how do we want to be seen?
Because just saying yes to everything doesn't necessarily make you a good team player, right?
Do we want to be seen as a pushover or somebody who is taken for granted?
We don't talk about the other side.
So let's address the identity part because that could be a really interesting revelation for a lot of people.
What type of identities in terms of self -limiting beliefs that might hold us back in this situation.
Let's go deeper if there's anything else, and then how should we start to see ourselves in order to be the kind of person that stands up for ourselves in these situations?
Well, without getting too deep into the weeds, I think it helps for if people have a vision, what their outcome is.
So let's talk about career.
Having that big picture vision of what you want to achieve I think helps set the path and it gives you, it puts the guardrails up, if you will, around what you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing.
And then you can start to trickle that down to some of the day -to -day things that you are doing that you should say yes to more often and that you should say no to more often.
But I think, again, start with that bigger vision in mind.
I talk in my book about this picture I had for myself.
I always wanted to be the CIO, the CTO of a big company.
I had this vision, and you guys can chuckle along with me, that I was going to be in this big corner office overlooking some urban landscape, kind of controlling and directing the technology strategy of a large company.
Fast forward 20, 25 years now, I don't have that giant office.
I'm not overlooking an urban landscape.
But I am driving those technology decisions in some big companies in the U .S. So, I've gotten there, just that picture is different.
But by using that, I was able to sort of course correct and drive and make changes down the road.
I love this story, Tiffany.
I think this is a great place to start too, because when we think about this, we have to have some kind of guiding light.
Because we often think about this in terms of avoidance.
I don't want people to see me this way.
I don't want to come off this way, whatever it happens to be.
I don't want to hurt people's feelings or disappoint people, but we never stop and just center on ourselves for a little bit and just say, Hey, what is it that I do want?
And to your point, I think I forget, maybe it was Sheryl Sandberg who said, If I would have tried to plan my career, I would have missed my career.
And essentially, she's saying, Hey, there's no way for me to have mapped out chief operating officer or Facebook, that wasn't possible, but you have to be able to be nimble in the moment and take advantage of opportunities when they come up and then also say no to the right things.
Because every yes needs to be protected by thousands of nos because there are going to be so many things that are distractors, but only one focus in guiding light.
And so I think a lot of times we consider setting boundaries or setting no just purely from the negative perspective.
And I think that's because we're centering on the other person and their feelings.
How will they perceive us?
How will they feel about this?
Instead of just saying, no, what do I really want?
And if we focus on that, it becomes easier to say no to those opportunities that might not be right for us.
Exactly. And to tie into your show, this is where the negotiation starts.
Absolutely. Yes. And it's funny because there's a great book called Jim Camp's Start With No, and he's like, the negotiation doesn't begin until we get to a no. And the thing is, every relationship, every career, whatever it happens to be, you're not going to be saying yes to everything.
That'd be weird. Wouldn't that be weird?
If everybody just always agreed that it would be some kind of dystopian type of weird situation.
That's just life, and once we just embrace it as part of life, then we start to get a lot more clarity.
And the thing is, too, Tiffany, sometimes, sometimes the opportunity, the relationship, the current career path just isn't for us.
And by saying yes, when we should be saying no, we are extending our time in the wrong position.
So if a relationship might have to break, or a position that you're currently in might need to change, I think it's better for us to figure that out sooner so we can start putting ourselves on the track for what our lives are actually supposed to be like.
One hundred percent.
I mean, this this this is career advice, but it's starting to sound like dating advice, honestly.
Well, let's let's bring it back to a little bit.
Let's bring it back to the negotiation practice, right?
One of the the negotiation tactics that I really love to use that I've bought in on and it's not for everybody and there's a bunch of different ones out there is is BAT, right?
It's a mutual gains approach to negotiation.
And really, it starts with preparation.
It's where I am spending time thinking about what it is I want out of a situation or an opportunity.
And again, if it's a career, what's the big picture?
What are you working towards?
Then you're drilling in on that and going, okay, I want to be that big CTO driving technology decisions.
What skills do I need?
Where am I going with that with those skills?
And then how do I get to them?
What positions do I need to hold?
What projects do I need to run?
What people do I need to work with?
right, right. Now you're preparing.
Yes. Yeah, so the second step is where you are asking questions, you are seeking to understand, there's no judgment involved, right.
You're not saying yes or no to anything, no commitment, no judgment, you're just pulling information out of whatever sources you can pull information out of.
In order to get to that third step, which is what could this look like?
What could I trade?
What tasks do I have to do to get to the ones that I want to do?
And vice versa? Yes.
So Tiffany, there is something really brilliant in there that I want to make sure that everybody paid attention to.
And honestly, it's something that does not come up enough on this podcast or in general when we're talking about negotiation.
And it is, we're not making any commitments at this stage.
Because remember, it's easier to turn a no into a yes, then a yes into a no. If I commit to something and then I say, actually no, I can't do it, everybody's mad.
But if I say, no, I can't do it, but let me think about it.
And then I say, yes, everybody, people can accept that, right.
And check out this little role play I'm going to do with myself.
It'll be fast. The mistake will be obvious.
Let's see if we can catch it.
Hey, Kwame. Can you help me with this?
Yeah, sure. I definitely, game over.
Because we just commit too fast. You just said, yeah, absolutely.
And that's all I heard, right?
As if I'm the one who's asking me for that favor.
That's all I heard. That's it.
That's it. And one of the things that I love about your approach is you talk about the ability to pause the conversation because sometimes the thing is we often just pretend, especially in the negotiation industry, we say, OK, you need to prepare for your negotiation.
Here's this big old worksheet, prepare for this negotiation, map it out, talk it out and then write it out.
Be ready for this. And then what we don't acknowledge enough is that sometimes these negotiations jump out of the bushes.
It's like, hey, you got a second?
And now you're in it, right?
So we have to find a way to gather ourselves and orient ourselves.
So let's talk about the ability to pause the conversation, slow down time and inject a little bit of space between request and decision.
Yes. So here's the situation that, that I think everybody can relate to.
Somebody in your company has resigned, left, going on to leave, whatever it is.
Your manager comes up, taps you on the shoulder and says, Hey, Mike's leaving.
I'd love it if you could take on some of his responsibilities.
here are the things he's doing.
Can you go sit with him?
Make sure that you, you get a transition to happen.
Most people in that situation go, sure.
But then begrudgingly in the back of their head, they're going, oh, great.
I don't have any time for this.
I don't have any, this is not what I want to do, right?
There's just a lot of mental anguish over having said yes in that moment.
I think the better opportunity is to hit the pause button, right?
The manager comes up and says, hey, I want you to take on Mike's work.
You know, I'm actually prepping for my next meeting.
Can I put time on your calendar tomorrow?
And let's go through what Mike's doing and what the ask is.
So I'm on the right, we're on the same page with what it is you want me to do.
Wow, it's so simple, but so powerful.
And Tiffany, I love just the metaphor of hitting the pause button, like actually, tangibly like, hey, I'm gonna physically hit the pause button.
I think that's, I'm playing with this a lot too, because I'm saying, no, there are times where we have to hit the pause button.
There are times where somebody's saying something inappropriate, or we just hit a stop, button.
There are times where somebody might have said something like earlier in the conversation or you said something earlier in the conversation that you have to revisit.
Hey, we are hitting rewind.
You know, so I like the playfulness, but also how real it is, because we have to remember that we have the right to pause the conversation.
I think a lot of times we feel almost this, I don't even think it's a conscious sense of obligation, but a subconscious pressure to move at the pace or urgency that is put in front of us by the other person.
And then we just keep on flowing and then they're asking for decisions when we're still very early in our process.
Because a lot of times one of these ambush types of situations, the person isn't even trying to do it maliciously.
They're just desperate.
They're like, hey, oh my gosh, Tiffany, I know you're great.
Can you help me, please?
I'm drowning. So, they've already thought through this pretty substantially.
And so they are already at a decision point And you are just at the, this entered my conscious awareness seven seconds ago point.
And so you still have to consider your BATNA.
You still have to consider what you want your future to be like and orient yourself in this situation.
So I think it's incredibly powerful to give people the right empowering them to control the pace of the conversation because sometimes we will make mistakes simply because we're going way too fast. Hello, my friends, before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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Elevate, negotiate and succeed.
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he thinks about the first interaction somebody has with Photoshop.
I was always so fascinated by how people navigate and find their way.
Ever wanted to know how Nike builds emotion into the Jordan brand?
You have to be obsessed with the current state of the human condition.
And it doesn't stop there.
What about how Glenn reinvented knowledge search with AI?
You can learn about how a Michelin star chef is redesigning seeds for flavor and how Pixar is nurturing a creative culture.
Listen to Building One on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
And I love that you pointed out the speed and the urgency.
There is very little that we do in the business world that requires an immediate response, decision, action.
I mean, there may be some people, 99 .95 % of us, no, not true.
Yup, you are so right, and then adding to that, and 99 .5 % of the time, we feel as though we need to come to a conclusion and answer with this level of urgency, and sometimes it's good to move fast, but a lot of times it's good to just slow down and take some time to think, and one of the things that I've started to do is as I'm confronted with these types of situations is I start to ponder, how long of an effect will the consequences of this decision have, right?
So if I'm at a restaurant and I'm so focused on making sure that I don't have a bad dining experience, Tiffany.
So I'm like, okay, we need at least 50 reviews, it needs to be at least four stars.
So if I follow that, I'm not gonna have something that is bad, bad, bad, bad most of the time.
So if I'm going to say, all right, I'm gonna pick a meal in between three things, I can just flip a coin and make a choice, okay, great.
Eh, not my favorite, but I'm okay.
But if it's a situation where, all right, hey, Mike is no longer with us and now my boss is asking me to take on more responsibility but they're not talking about additional compensation or how long this is gonna last or what it is that they're asking me to do, this could be affecting my life for months.
I should slow it down a wee bit to make sure that I'm making the right decision.
Absolutely. And it's beyond making the right decision.
I don't want people to get hung up on right versus wrong.
I think you're missing the opportunity to be strategic and opportunistic to say, you know what, I'm willing to put a little pressure on myself, boss, and take on some of Mike's role, but I need you to take these three other things off my plate, or maybe, I'm willing to take this on.
If we can talk about this in the bigger picture of my career growth and that title that I've been wanting and that promotion I've been wanting, Are we willing to recognize the skills that I'm going to develop in pursuit of that?
That's amazing. Yeah, because you're right, because once you look at it through the lens of negotiation, now we can say, hey, how can I make this more of a win win?
And a lot of times when it comes to inappropriately not setting boundaries, we're just saying, how can I help them to win at my expense, right?
Because in these conversations, it's our responsibility to stand up for ourselves and advocate for ourselves.
And really, it's their responsibility to do the same for themselves.
So we have to be able to stand up.
And I love the fact that we're talking about being strategic and opportunistic.
Two words that are very, very beneficial to very positive, but for some reason, often negatively stigmatized.
You know, I remember, you know, this isn't very, you know, professional, I guess.
But I was watching a reality TV show.
And this person was talking about another person in the game that they're like, Yeah, they're really strategic.
Yeah, I don't like them because they're really strategic.
I was like strategic, what did that become?
A bad word, right? And opportunistic is you want these opportunities to just go past so somebody else can take it.
So I want you, I was on my soapbox, I'm passing it to you.
Can we talk about these words and try to help people to not stigmatize these words going forward?
Sure. I'll use another phrase.
I have a little bit of a soapbox on this one.
It's when I'm called lucky.
Oh my God. I believe that luck is where preparation meets opportunity.
So what you see as being lucky I prepared for that and when the opportunity came knocking when my boss came and tapped on My cubicle I was ready.
Yes. Yes. I feel you on that one I feel you because that word the L word is really frustrating because it's like it's Diminishing the contribution that you made to your own success and the thing is very few people especially in the business world There are so many opportunities so many different companies so many different things to be done so many different ways to make money and there are very, very, very, very few people who say, Yeah, when I was a little girl, little boy, I said I was going to do this.
And then I did it. And everything went the exact right way.
No things, things happen, right.
And the thing is, I've started to say, you know, what people keep on using this word, let me just own it.
I'm taking the word lucky back.
So I said, yeah, I'm luck is my strategy.
Luck is my strategy.
I work really hard. I put myself in good positions, I have relationships, I let people know how I can help them.
And when opportunities come by negotiate effectively, right.
And the The thing is, yeah, when you think about it through the lens of being strategic, being opportunistic and then also creating your own look, you recognize that negotiation is a core part of all of these strategies, right?
Because you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.
And that takes you actually being mindful of what it is that you want to accomplish in life, and then paying attention to that, so then you can navigate your career in that direction.
And so I would say that if the word strategic or opportunistic is a little bit triggering, think of it in terms of being prepared.
In sports world, sometimes they say, Oh, you're golf, you know, it's like some, you stay ready so you don't have to get ready.
Right. So as long as I'm always prepared, I have the skills at my disposal.
But I'm also doing the work to build myself up for that next level position.
Once that next level position comes, I'm not saying, Oh, hey, wait boss, I need to take a couple trainings.
so I'm actually credible in this role, you're already ready for it, have to get ready.
Because that's the first step in negotiation is you have prepared, you have done your homework, you have researched, you have educated yourself, you have taken the courses, networked, whatever prepared it is to you, whatever that looks like to you in that situation, that's being strategic.
No, this is great. And now when we think about, because I know with your consulting, you have an incredible amount of experience talking about the nexus between tech and operations.
And right now we are in this AI revolution and people are very concerned about the direction it's going.
Some people are very excited about it.
And a lot of times it's a mixture of both.
And sometimes companies are just so eager to put this into their company that they don't think about how to meaningfully integrate it into the systems that they already have. And so So when you're working with folks and you're coaching leaders on how to have the conversations about these emerging technologies, what are some of the things that you want to make sure that people hit?
I love talking about AI, so thank you for bringing this up.
To me, I think AI is a great opportunity regardless of where you're at in the workplace and what your role is.
And there's a couple reasons why I think this and I'll try to be brief because we could spend a whole hour talking about AI alone.
Depending on where you are at in your career, which generation you are a part of, you may have the experience of what the workplace was like before technology really hit the workspace.
And even though it's evolving so quickly, you are likely going to be needed in the workplace a whole lot longer than you may want to be working because you're gonna be the person that is gonna have to bridge the gap when the tech stops working.
because tech always stops working.
So just think about that for a minute.
And as you think about back on your career, I'll think about back on mine, when I first started, the internet was just hitting big companies, and so many of them had the internet locked down, and so you couldn't actually get out and do some of the things that we take for granted today that I'm like, yeah, let me just look that up on my phone.
Hold on, please. I mean, even when these hospitals are oftentimes in the news because they may be getting ransom calls and they have to drop to paper.
Let's think about who remembers drop into paper and having to write out a paper chart or paper script, right?
Wow, that is something I never considered You're right, because some people are so attached to their technology that they cannot function without it And I remember yeah a couple a few years ago.
There was that situation I think it was in Texas where they had that unexpected ice storm and the Electricity went out and a lot of people got really humble really fast when we realized wow without electricity we are just primates without any skills.
We are primates without survival skills.
I had a client who was, she was in Australia.
She was a leading dairy farmer in the area.
And she's like, yeah, in the Australian agricultural community, we always say that every society is just three days away from anarchy as if they stop getting food, everybody is done, right?
And so you're right.
When you run into that situation where, hey everybody, for a moment the tech is down, but I still expect you to be productive.
There's going to be a group of people who are just not going to know what to do, but then there are going to be some folks who have some meaningful experience and can actually weather the storm and be that leader.
And I think what you've done here is you've given people in this episode not just skills to have tough conversations in general.
Not just how to set boundaries and be strategic, opportunistic, and also prepared.
But also you've given a generation that feels as though they don't have a place in the workplace anymore, a very legitimate argument for why they are more necessary now than ever.
So I feel like we've covered a lot of this episode, but before you go, when you think about everything that we've talked about and some of the folks that you've helped throughout your career, what would be one parting piece of advice that you would leave them with?
I would tell them to be bold in their ask.
We know the answer to any question that you don't ask is no. So what is it you're really risking by asking?
Right? The worst that could happen is They say no, but you could have a whole host of other outcomes that are closer to yes than you thought they would be.
This is good and I think that's a great landing spot.
Tiffany, thank you so much for joining us.
Before you go again, just let the listeners know about your company, the book, and how they can get in touch. Absolutely, so my company is TGR Management Consulting.
You can find us out on the internet at tgrmanagementconsulting .com.
If you want to follow me, personally, you can find me on LinkedIn, Tiffany Rossack.
You can also check out my book.
You can connect to it through Amazon, or I do have a special book page, which is Tiffanyrossic .com.
Amazing, Tiffany, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
Boom. Amazing, so good, so good.
We covered, it's so interesting.
There were a number of things that we covered specifically that we, like pausing the conversation, being in control of the pacing of the conversation.
We don't, we barely, I can't think of an episode other than we had one episode on strategic silence.
But like controlling the pace of the conversation that was really unique.
The ideas of being strategic prepared and opportunistic, love that too because we're blending mindset with skill set and strategy.
So that was so good.
You were fantastic quotes.
I appreciated how you just sort of rolled the conversation and it just seemed seamless.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Well, you made it easy.
You made it easy. I appreciate you.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
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