Hey, everyone.
Kwame here.
And in today's episode we're going to take a different approach, because I'm not the ones asking the questions.
Instead, I'm on the other side of the mic.
I had the chance to sit down with my friend Jamie Libro, an incredible executive coach and author who's helped so many leaders uncover their strengths and navigate their challenges.
In this conversation, Jamie turns the tables on me.
You'll hear me share stories.
I usually don't talk about what I've struggled with, what I've learned along the way and how I try to balance confidence with humility.
My hope is that as you listen, you'll see that growth isn't about having all the answers.
It's about being willing to ask yourself the hard questions.
So with that said, let's jump into the episode.
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For the past three years, I've been the global head of executive talent management at JP Morgan's Asset and Wealth Management business.
To give you a sense, it's about 28,000 people who manage $6 trillion in assets.
And my role there was succession planning, managing the promotion process, executive coaching, some work around employee engagement.
And then you know, a dream of mine, a bucket list item since ever, ever since I could remember, was to write a book.
And I just sold my first book.
It's called how to find your go.
It's called find your Gobi.
And so I left JP Morgan to start my own coaching consulting business, to give myself time to finish the book.
And my first client is.
They are the premier coaching company for the finance industry.
So I'll be spending a good portion of my time working with their clients one on one, coaching and doing workshops.
And then I'll be able to pursue other types of work around helping people find their Gobi.
Let's just start by talking about Gobi.
What the last couple of years have looked like from your ascendancy at JPMorgan Chase.
Now you're free and writing this book.
So just let's lay this foundation, and then we'll let the listeners know about what the cool little role reversal we're going to do here with this episode.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I was the global head of executive talent at JPMorgan Chase for the asset and wealth management business, which is about 28000 employees who manage 6 trillion in assets.
Wow.
And then I sold my first book and now I'm going to be partnering with firms to start coaching and consulting and just teaching leadership while giving me time to finish the book.
Incredible, and friends who are listening, our friend jamie here.
She is very, very humble okay, so this is.
This is a big deal, because we saw the work that you did at jp morgan.
It was incredible.
And now you starting your own consultancy, doing this incredible work, partnering with incredible companies, just off of the jump.
I think it just speaks to how excellent and high level you have always been.
And now it's cool to see that nothing's holding you back.
You can do everything your way now.
Thanks, Kwame.
Yeah, I'm excited to get back into consulting.
I spent 12 and a half years with Gallup, where my specialty was coaching C-suites in conflict, which is where your work really caught my attention, because you are the expert on how to handle difficult conversations and teams and conflict.
So it's something you and I have in common just really helping people listen to each other, understand each other and find the win-win.
Yes, for sure.
And this gives us an opportunity to talk about the new book that is coming out.
And that's what this Which will be a reverse interview is all about.
So listeners plot twist.
This is Jamie's show.
She is the captain now.
So she's running the ship.
And so she's going to kind of be asking me questions as it, and you might see some of the, the quotes or some.
Some of this appear in her book too.
So keep an eye out for that.
But let's talk to the listeners about what the book is all about.
Great.
So Kwame, if you had to guess, what would you say is the loudest creature in the ocean?
Oh, wait.
I think you, is it the, what, the pistol shrimp?
Yes.
Yes.
It is a pistol shrimp.
It's a pistol shrimp.
And believe it or not, they're only about one to two inches long.
They're about the size of your thumb.
And they have one tiny claw and one giant pistol claw.
And they're able to trap a bubble and release it at 60 miles an hour.
So the speed of a car.
So imagine something this tiny can release a bubble at the speed of a fast car.
It creates heat almost as hot as the sun.
And with that bubble and it's able to use that to scare or stun the small fish around it and that's how it eats.
And then giant predators like whales and dolphins are afraid that some huge predators coming and they run and hide.
Because underwater it's called a pistol shrimp because it sounds like rapid machine gunfire, like pow pow, pow.
Over and over again.
And so that's how it's able to eat and be saved.
But what's really interesting about the pistol shrimp is it's nearly blind.
And blindness is not its weakness.
Its weakness is that it doesn't know when or where to pop its bubble.
And so everywhere in nature that you see a pistol shrimp, you see them bond for life with another creature called a goby.
And the two of them will just hold fins all day.
And if the goby, it'll just look around.
If it sees something that it wants to eat or something that might want to eat them, it'll position the pistol shrimp.
She pops her bubble and they're both safe and they're both fed.
Wow.
That's so cool.
That is really cool because I knew about the science behind the pistol shrimp.
I didn't know about its partner in crime.
That's fascinating.
Yeah.
And it's just fascinating because they do.
It's life or death for them underwater.
And what I've learned in 25 years in executive leadership for these large companies is that the key to everything.
There's three keys.
One, it's understanding your strengths and weaknesses, being crystal clear on what those are.
Really developing your strengths to the point where you have something to offer in a partnership.
Then the second is find your Gobi.
So don't try to do everything yourself.
I definitely I know you have a lot of Gobi's who you work with.
So we'll definitely talk about how you position yourself and how you work with the people on your team.
And then the third is telling your story.
And this is a part that the executives I coach really struggle with and find surprising.
So I might bring someone's employee engagement scores up 20, 30 percentage points in a year and we'll celebrate.
But then I'll say, OK, you know this.
I know this.
Your team knows this. who else knows this?
And they're just stunned because the people who are in a position of influence have no idea that they've grown and improved.
So, for anyone who's looking for a promotion, For anyone who's looking to get a job, the ability to tell your story, especially when you've just grown tremendously, is just as important as having the strengths and developing them.
So you really need all three to get ahead.
Oh, this is good.
And this goes perfectly in line with the rebranding of the podcast.
I probably should have told you this before the episode started.
Yeah.
So you know who I am.
I like negotiation, persuasion.
That doesn't change.
But I realized that one of the things that holds people back is that They might have all the skills and the talent and everything, but they're not taking big swings.
They're not trying big enough.
For me, I realized this year I've had a lot of growth, and it's because of this big swing mentality.
My motto this year was big swings only, just swinging for the fences.
If you have the mindset and skill set and everything that you need, then the only thing that's holding you back is your willingness to swing big.
And when I think about these things understanding your strengths and your weaknesses, getting your team in place, mastering your story those are all elements that are required in order to take those big swings and knock it out of the park.
I couldn't agree more.
You're absolutely right.
Because not only are symbiotic partnerships important for work and to get ahead, but But there's an epidemic of loneliness around the world.
I don't know if you've seen the recent Gallup polls about loneliness, but 18 to 20 percent of the world would, if you in a representative study of about 98 percent of the world's population.
When they asked, did you feel lonely yesterday?
That 18 to 20 percent said yes.
And it was even worse in the U.S. in men, you know, 18 and over because men.
Sorry, this is your demographic.
But men just don't seem to make new friends, especially after the college age.
Because in order to make a friend, you need to spend one to 200 hours with someone.
And when do you ever spend that much time with anyone?
Like if you think about your own life, when you're ever spending that much time with other people?
Barely ever, unless they're in your family or you work together.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so I swear we didn't plan this in advance.
But, you know, it's it's so true.
So the only time you have an opportunity to build a new friend, one that really is going to make a difference, is at work.
And so when someone is a Gobi yes, they have complementary strengths to you, like the pistol shrimp and the Gobi.
They have different strengths.
That you're helping each other to amplify what you do.
The pistol shrimp would just be wildly popping bubbles in every direction without the goby to tell her where and when to do it.
And she would not be anywhere near as successful if she didn't have that partner.
And the same thing at work.
You need those other people to amplify your strengths.
But then, if you really want, the amount of time that we spend at work is really the only opportunity we have to build these really deep relationships.
And the deep relationships happen when you really are vulnerable with people and you show them.
Here's what I'm really good at.
And here's what I bring to the table.
Here's what I'm not good at.
And here's where I see you are excellent in that area and I need your help.
Like for you.
Kwame, I noticed when I emailed you I got a very polite note that said I'm probably not the best.
I might not be the best person to answer your question.
And it instantly routed me to someone on your team who was laser fast at answering.
You know, so can you tell me a little bit about that Gobi relationship?
Oh, yeah.
So I came to this conclusion, Jamie.
I said to myself OK, when I think about the super successful people, they are successful not necessarily because they strengthen weaknesses, but because they maximize their strengths.
And so this is going to sound ridiculous, but I decided at a certain point that in my professional life that I don't care to improve my weaknesses.
I just want to hire around them.
And so because if I have a weakness, the best I can become is kind of like average myself.
But if I get somebody where that's their strength, then that's what they do.
So, yeah, I said to myself, when it comes to admin, admin is not my strength.
And it's not just not my strength.
Even when I'm doing it well, it brings me deep sadness.
I really, really, really hate this.
I said to myself, I was like, okay, Kwame, let's come up with a hypothetical.
There's a situation.
You've contracted this disease and this disease prevents you from checking email.
Can you find a way to still be successful?
In your life without checking email.
If you have this disease and it's not a choice I was like oh, I would find a way.
It might be challenging.
But once I figure out a system for it, I would.
It's like, well, Kwame, I regret to inform you that you have this disease now.
And I'm not doing it.
And I remember one time somebody said, Kwame, that email, it kind of turns people off from sending you emails.
I'm like, good.
That's the point.
I don't want emails.
The email that you got in response said hey, I'm sorry, I'm probably not going to get back to this because I'm traveling or doing something or generally caught this disease where I can't check emails.
But here are the people that you need to get in touch with.
If it's this talk to Emily, if it's that talk to Simone, if it's that talk to Ashley and so on.
And so, you know where to go.
And if somebody doesn't want to work with me within those parameters, That's good for them.
They can.
There are plenty of other negotiation experts.
Check the podcast.
We've had over a thousand episodes.
Right.
But if you want to work with me, then you have to work through my team.
You know, and I think just kind of owning that has been really liberating, because now I can spend more time doing things that I actually enjoy and things that are within my zone of genius.
I can do more podcast episodes.
I can create more videos.
You see me online all the time with my videos.
Now because I have more time and because I am not brought down through the sadness of administrative labor.
But it's true, but we're joking, but you have more energy.
You can get more done.
You can, when you're, and you could take those big swings.
Exactly.
Because if you were just answering emails all day, there is those are.
There's no big swings in emails.
None, none, none whatsoever.
That's great.
Okay.
So I have more questions for you.
I'd love to hear more about and there's a reason why I'm asking this but I'd love to hear what some of your strengths are.
So one strength that I have is the ability to simplify complex things.
So I feel like part of the value that I bring is that I'm a translator for more complex ideas in a way that makes it understandable palatable, potentially entertaining, but also practical.
So the what's in it for me, you can understand that.
So because of the background in law, psychology policy, I can synthesize information in a cohesive type of way so I can understand it.
But then for me, as a content creator and influencer, I've had to learn how to To shorten these messages, make them entertaining, but also maximize cognitive fluency so they could be consumed without too much resistance as well.
So I think that's a big part of it.
Listening in a way that makes people want to share more, and listening in a way that helps people leave the conversation with a deeper understanding of themselves.
That's one thing that I get a lot.
So that comes out in the podcast too.
So if somebody says something that's a little bit complicated, I can synthesize it in a way that the audience can understand in a really easy way.
The other thing would be the ability to connect and understand people.
And so I talked to – I mentioned it in my last book where I said I call it a helpful fiction.
So it's essentially a self-prescribed placebo, a belief that may or may not be true.
That I believe because it helps me.
So I go into every interaction, no matter who the person is, with the assumption that I can connect with and persuade anybody.
I have the skills.
And is it always true?
No.
But believing it makes it more likely for it to occur.
And I've been able to connect with people on a very deep level in that type of way.
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The other thing is I can see things in a way that gives people these little epiphanies of how it applies to them.
So you look at something and I can come up with a different angle to make it really practical in a way that other people might not have initially realized.
So I think when it comes to content creation, that's something that's been valuable as well.
Those are the main – and this is a skill that I've been intentionally – this is going to sound odd – intentionally putting on the back burner, because it has become a crutch.
Something used out of proportion can become a liability.
And it's my ability to analyze things.
So for me, as a lawyer, deep analysis was my greatest value to my clients.
And then for me, even in my spare time, playing chess.
I've played over 20000 games of chess.
Got to the 99th percentile on chesscom.
I love chess.
But then I realized that I was a little bit disconnected from my intuition.
So this year I've been trying to intentionally be less strategic and more intuitive and seeing if I can tap into that gut feeling a lot better, so I can make faster decisions based on feel and flow, not just strategy.
And what's been interesting is that it's actually enhanced my ability to perform as a leader.
In it just day to day.
When it comes to business strategy, i'm i'm doing things that are more in flow and in alignment with me and my strengths and with the strengths of the team, not feeling like we need to be like anybody else.
So it's been very interesting because in the last year it's
It's been very rare that those deep analytical skills have been of value, because in the last few years I think they've been more liabilities than anything else.
So if I'm doing a consulting deal and somebody needs me to analyze, like a deal or a conflict or something, I can go back into that mode very, very well.
But I've been really surprised at how infrequently I need to use those analytical skills.
It's nice to know I have them and I have them at a very high level.
But it's been very interesting doing this year long experiment of putting them on the back burner and watching everything get better.
That's fascinating because so my book, I didn't mention this earlier, is a fable.
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
So it is.
So they're all characters.
So that there's it starts off with in the human world, with an executive who's struggling because he doesn't have a Gobi.
And then we literally go underwater and we have Penny the Pistol Shrimp and George the Gobi and their misadventures.
But it's something you just brought up.
So Penny has, you know, the giant claw and the tiny claw, and her coworkers are kind of even making fun of her for her mismatched claws.
And she's so clumsy because she's off balance all the time, but then she saves everyone with that exact same cloth.
So it's just, it's really striking me what you're saying, that this ability to analyze can be either strength or weakness, depending on the situation and where you're using it.
And for me or really I'll say, the Gallup definition of a strength is consistent near perfect performance in a given activity.
And a weakness is anything that gets in the way of excellence.
And so the difference between is it a strength or weakness is what is your outcome?
Is it?
Helping you?
Is your analytical ability helping you achieve success in this specific environment or situation, or is it getting in the way?
And so if you're going to dig deeper there, what would it be, what triggers one versus the other?
And do you have any partners who help you know when to?
I remember you talking about how you used to when you did the session at JP Morgan for our rising leaders, our executive directors.
We talked about how you have this urge to always customize content.
Because you love that.
You love giving clients exactly what they need.
And your team would really help you and help you think about okay Kwame, you just have to do boilerplate.
Your basic content is excellent.
You don't have time.
The client didn't pay for this.
You've just got to go in and do boilerplate.
But this one, the client was willing to pay for the, And you have a little more time and now you could customize this.
So that was an example of using your Gobi to know when your customization is a strength versus when it's taking away from your bottom line.
You're right.
And that that is something that it's so funny.
You brought that up because that was a couple of years ago and you're right.
It's something that I've let go of and it's made everything better, you know?
Yeah.
Because what I've found is, especially with conflict resolution, everybody more or less psychologically we're dealing with the same thing.
I just need to.
I need to change the like.
One case study for the whole presentation.
More or less can be the same.
And you saw the presentations.
It's almost improv adjacent.
So there's a lot of there's a lot of back and forth with the audience.
So the audience kind of customizes it just by their engagement as well.
So it's been cool to let go in that way.
And even the little tweaks that you made felt, made it feel really personalized.
Like, since we are bank JP Morgan, the largest bank in the world.
You talked about relationships as having deposits and withdrawals.
Yes.
And that didn't take three hours to you know, to customize, but it still made it feel really personal.
And it was such a strong point.
And I think, as we're talking about building our Gobi, a big part of the book is how do you actually build that intense relationship with someone?
And so something I wanted to bring up from your book Head of Difficult Conversations About Race.
Something I love about your book is it applies to really all difficult conversations.
And you specifically mentioned in your book this difficult conversation you had to have with your friends that you felt like they were taking advantage of you.
Yeah.
I think in relationships, what I find is we know what we need to say.
And when you spoke at JP Morgan, you talked about the importance of having that conversation.
You know is going to be awkward.
And the advice.
I don't know if you remember the advice you gave us was the power in starting off by saying look, I know this is going to be awkward and uncomfortable.
Yes.
Just owning it.
And there's so much power in that too, because most likely the other person.
In a lot of cases they're feeling the exact same way and they're avoiding it for the exact same reason.
And it's, I was going to say it's funny.
It's only funny when you're watching it on TV or seeing other people deal with it.
It's like, haha, that's funny.
It's not funny when you're in it, but it's funny to see other people.
It's true.
It's like, These two people, they're saying, hey, how are you?
And there's this underlying tension and they both know why.
And they're pretending like they're not feeling it.
It's like it's a weird mutual gaslighting that occurs.
And there's a wall that goes up when you're not talking about the here and now.
Yes.
In the room.
What's happening in psychology, we talk about the there and then and the here and now.
So even when you're debating with people, or when not debating, but when you're having these difficult conversations that ultimately can bring your relationship closer.
You're usually there to confront them about something that happened there and then.
So in the past.
But in the moment sometimes you have to pause and talk about OK here now.
Does this feel really weird?
Does this feel uncomfortable?
And I can't tell you how many times I've used your technique since then.
And a hundred percent of the time the person goes, Oh my goodness.
Yes.
I did not want to have this conversation.
It's like eating your vegetables.
I didn't are working out.
I didn't want to do it, but I knew it would be good for me, and I want to move forward with you, Jamie.
So yeah, let's, but yeah, but just acknowledging the awkwardness takes so much pressure off.
So I thought that was a great tip.
Oh, for sure.
But I'll go back.
One other quick thing, too.
I think a lot of times we we avoid these conversations because we trick ourselves into saying we're trying to find the way to have the conversation that is perfectly palatable for the other side, where there's no awkwardness and no emotionality.
And that does not exist.
And therefore, the conversation never happens.
Well, I'll tell you, I took this lesson to heart so much that I put in my book.
My characters are having this amazing relationship.
And there's a really interesting study that, right when people are on the verge of greatness, they tend to quit.
There's multiple studies like that.
Hmm.
You know, marathon runners tend to quit in the 18th to 20th mile.
That's when they're most likely to quit during a race.
There's a fascinating study at this button factory right after the end of World War II, where it was one of the first pay for performance studies where People, if you were able to sew 10 buttons in an hour, you made a penny per button.
If you could do 20 in an hour, you earned a nickel per button.
I'm making up the numbers.
But the place where people quit is right at the beginning.
And they're like, oof, no, what did I get myself into?
I do not like sewing buttons.
Or they would quit right on the verge of greatness, when they were just about to get to that highest level.
And that really matches up with I don't know if you're familiar with the conscious competency grid of warning.
But when when you're new to something, you're brand new to negotiation.
You're like, I'm going to nail this.
I've seen this on the movies.
This is going to be Kwame told me all about it.
I'm going to be awesome.
You're unconsciously incompetent.
You don't know what you don't know.
And then suddenly, within the first six months of a job, you see employee engagement dip in employees because they're like oh no, this is hard and they become consciously incompetent.
So now they realize they have a whole new set of skills to learn and they are not good at it yet And that's really challenging.
So that's where you really need a mentor, a champion.
You need a friend like this is where you really need a Gobi to just lift you up.
And my characters, you'll see them do that.
And then next you become and to get to that next step, like right when you're now, you're at the verge of greatness, you need to practice and mentor and push yourself.
And then you become consciously competent.
So you have you're good at it.
You have to really think about the steps.
So maybe they review their Kwame's guide to negotiation before they go into the room.
And then ultimately you push through and you become unconsciously competent.
You don't even have to think about it.
Riding a bike.
You don't even remember a time that it was hard.
If someone told you about that time it was hard for you, you'd have trouble believing them.
And so right when, at that point of tension, I have my characters get into a really big misalignment where they wanted to go in two different directions,
And they really get frustrated by... One's frustrated, the other gave up.
The other one's frustrated that the other one took a big risk that they wouldn't have taken.
And this is real in relationships, right?
We have different levels of risk aversion.
We have different levels of stamina.
And so I have them have a fight and...
I have them have this, you know, their mentor forces them.
She reserves a conference room and says, both of you go home, sleep on this.
And tomorrow, like you are not leaving that room until you've had maybe an awkward, difficult conversation, until you see what the other person is upset about.
You seek to understand before seeking to be understood.
Ooh, that's so good, Jamie.
That's such an interesting, that's so interesting.
I wonder.
I wonder how the world would change if that was almost like the standard, where it's like okay, we were having beef fine, we're reserving the conference room.
You gather your thoughts, i'll gather my thoughts, and then the first, before we even start talking about solutions.
My goal is to understand you, your goal is to understand me, and we don't need to agree if we can just say nope, conversation's happening, we're closing the doors and we're not leaving until this is done.
It reminds me kind of like Parkinson's law, where you have a task that will always expand or contract based on the amount of time that it's given.
And if you always say to yourself okay well, there's a problem, there's a conflict that I have with this person, but there's no forced deadline, then I'm always on, then I'm never behind schedule necessarily.
It's just my schedule, then we just could trick ourselves into thinking that we will have it at some point, like it'll happen organically, but it doesn't.
But you've seen that it doesn't happen.
Yeah, it just gets more awkward and more uncomfortable.
That's rough.
That's really rough.
Okay.
So I did want to go back to, I asked you, I had a reason for asking you about your strengths before.
Well, yes.
I was going to ask you about your strengths and your weaknesses.
And then I was going to ask you which one felt more uncomfortable to talk about.
That's a good question.
I think at this point, I'm very okay with myself.
So talking about my weaknesses is okay.
I think what was interesting was the hardest one to talk about was the strength that became a weakness, which was the analytical side of myself.
And because that one wasn't so much, I didn't think about it as a strength or a weakness.
I saw it as an identity, who I was.
So that's why it was hard to let go.
Kwame is an intellectual.
He's an analytical thinker.
He's the chess player, right?
Yeah.
Go to sound dumb, but I made it a new year's resolution not to read any books because in the past my habit was to read a book every week.
So I read well, using the term read loosely.
It's all audio books and I would go read it in 35 times speed, but then I would take notes.
So On average it would probably be like 20 pages of single-spaced notes when I'm done, if I'm really into it.
Like Thinking Fast and Slow, that was about 60 pages, size 12, no spaces.
Well, that's an 800-page book.
Yeah, it's a big one.
But then I would take the notes and put it into audio.
So in the morning when I was getting ready for the gym, I was listening to the notes in audio form.
At like 500 words per minute, just devouring it because memory is nothing without retention.
I had to make sure that I was recapping everything.
Then throughout the day, I'm just devouring a new book.
But then I realized that what I was doing was that I was gathering a lot of knowledge.
But I was not willing to really lean into what I truly believed and how I truly felt and how I truly saw the world.
You know that feeling when you're in back-to-back meetings all day?
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And it would come out in terms of content creation.
I would have really unique approaches to conversations and things like that.
But when it came to business strategy and life strategy, I realized that I was just jumping on the bandwagon of different thought leaders.
And then I said to myself, Kwame, people look to you as a thought leader.
And you're kind of living your life on other people's terms.
That's silly.
So let's do a year where you just take notes on your own life, when you're just thinking about your own thoughts and starting to get more familiar with who you are and who you want to be, what you want the world to look like, what you want your life to look like.
Because I've written books before.
Now I'm just going to work on writing the book of Kwame.
So every month I was taking dictate because I dictate all of my notes.
It's like over 100,000 note pages.
I'm sorry, 100,000 words per month in note form, just kind of being my life stenographer.
Like all of my thoughts, decisions.
What decision went well?
What was I thinking or feeling as I was making that decision?
What decision went poorly?
What was I thinking and feeling?
What led to that?
So I was like, my goal is to not make the same mistake twice, but then improve upon every decision.
So that's been really rewarding, because I've been able to kind of tap more into what I want, what I believe, who I am and that intuition that I wasn't able to access because I was so heady all the time focusing on constantly devouring other people's information too.
So that's why the hesitancy –
It was there when it came to talking about analytical, the analytical side.
I always saw the intellectual side of myself as a strength.
And it was for a very long time until it wasn't.
So it wasn't so much a strength versus weakness.
It was just a kind of an identity shift that had to happen.
Hmm.
That's remarkable.
That's a remarkable shift.
And it makes me think about Brene Brown's work that I think I saw on your website.
You coached something like 35,000 people via audiences and one-on-one coaching.
Is that number...
That was the on LinkedIn learning the certificate, the certificate program we did.
That was that's about thirty five thousand.
But on LinkedIn learning, just in terms of people have gone through the courses, it's over two point five million now.
But in but yeah, it's a it's a mix of those two.
But my point in these large numbers is that this is qualitative research.
Every time you're teaching a class and interacting with them, every time you're one-on-one coaching, like Brene Brown's earth-shattering all came from her qualitative research and her experience.
And you could use that analytical strength to now find the themes in this qualitative research you've been conducting unknowingly for the past 20 or so years and teach the world what you've learned from that large sample size.
That's brilliant.
You're so right.
You're so right.
And I'm just always like, and I think it's almost like a lag in the way I was navigating the world.
Because when you're first coming out of school and everything you people are teach, have been teaching you.
And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm out in the world.
Who's teaching me now.
So I need to, it's these authors.
I'm going to gather all that information and learn as much as I can about the world as quickly as I can.
One book per week per week is the power.
I'm the same way.
The books behind me are just rainbowed, but my, if you could see the whole office.
It's just books and books and stacks of more books and hundreds of audio.
I always have a book that I'm listening to and a book that I'm reading in real life.
It's fun.
And I liked it for a long time, you know.
But uh, Just kind of, I think it was a bit of a confidence thing too.
It's like, hey, now you're you're you're a grown up now, Kwame.
You can start to make your own assertions.
It's true.
It's true.
You're at the point where you've developed an expertise and you have enough experience that now we want to know what you've learned from it.
What you've learned from it.
And that's where your podcast comes in.
But I want to go back.
So the reason why I asked you about strengths and weaknesses I feel like you're a one of Plato's philosopher kings on this topic, someone who is rarely talented in being able to articulate both comfortably.
Because my experience is that people are comfortable with one, the other or neither.
Or either it's super uncomfortable to talk about their strengths or it's too vulnerable to talk about their weaknesses.
And yet, This is something we need to all start practicing.
We need to, first of all, know both because that could be a problem.
Maybe you don't.
Some people, you had an answer ready.
Yours was so clear and you had clearly been thinking about this or reflecting.
It was an unusually thoughtful answer.
And what's funny is in my strengths workshops that I'll do with teams I'll ask I'll sometimes start off with this to have people share, as an icebreaker, a strength that they have.
And it's really uncomfortable.
And I'll ask people, how did that feel?
And they say, it's really uncomfortable.
But if people don't know what your strengths are, then why would they promote you to a job where you have to use that strength?
And I like to help people reframe it as thinking about.
You know, if someone said Kwame, do you have a hammer?
And you had a hammer, you'd say, yeah, here's my hammer.
Kwame, do you have a pen?
Yeah, here's my pen.
You know, but to say like, hey, Kwame, how's your critical thinking skills?
How is your analytical ability?
Oh, I'm, you know, as good as the next guy.
No, I am world class.
I spent 20 years developing this.
And research shows that the best way to share your strengths without sounding like you're bragging is to frame it in the context of how hard you work to get there.
Hmm.
So people are going to cheer for you if they say you know well yes, you're in the 99th percentile in chess, but that was only after playing how many thousands of games to get there.
So you got there.
You're an expert now because you put the work in, not you woke up and were the world's greatest chess player, which people just feel a little jealous.
Right, right.
That's good.
Finding your go, but you need to know your strengths and weaknesses and you have to start telling them to people.
Of course, you have to be careful with who you tell your weaknesses to.
You have to have that level of trust with someone, but it's only so that they don't put you in a situation
They help you avoid situations where you're forced to use your weakness.
So if you say to your team, team.
When people send me an email, I just think about it and think about it and I'll have an answer in my head, and then I never send it.
I need you all to protect me from this.
Right.
Then you'll have their eyes on it and they'll make sure that they'll flag the important emails and make sure you answer them.
And that's what Gobi's do for us.
I like this.
And I want to go into something too.
I want to get your thoughts on this, because I've realized that sometimes, when it comes to people's unwillingness, especially to share their strengths, it's because they have a bit of an unhealthy relationship with the concept of humility.
Yes.
And so when what humility is not, it is not understating something that is good about you.
And I think a lot of times because that truly is a lie.
If you're world class at something and then you're like oh, I'm OK at it, then you, then you just lied.
You you cut yourself short and you like that was untrue.
Right.
And then the other thing too is for me when I think about humility, I just think about it in terms of accuracy.
And so when so, for instance, it shows up in different ways.
So, for instance, if somebody is like, hey, Kwame, are you good at car mechanics?
I'm like, absolutely not.
I know nothing about that.
Oh, Kwame.
Hey, great job with that project.
Hey well, shout out to Simone for being the executive producer to help us produce all these episodes.
Shout out to Ashley for doing the content.
Emily to do that.
Right.
That's.
That's me just being accurate.
I'm just telling the truth.
I didn't do all this by myself.
I have a team behind me.
That's accuracy.
It's like, hey, Kwame, are you good at negotiation?
Yes, I'm very good at negotiation because I spent a lot of time doing it.
And so I think, if you don't think about humility in terms of understating yourself, but in terms of just accurately conveying what is true, then I think it allows you to give kudos to people who might not have shine on them, which comes off as humble, and you can still humbly and accurately talk about the value that you bring to an organization or the skills that you have.
Wow, powerful.
And I just want to call out the fact that you are frequently it's something I've always seen you do just you frequently love to highlight the strengths of the people on your team.
And you really see them.
And that's an important part of being a Gobi.
And this is where the authenticity comes in is having people like.
There were times in my life when I was lonely.
I think of my freshman year of college.
I had tons of drinking buddies to hang out with.
The people didn't know me.
I didn't know them.
And so there's, and there's this Gen Z phrase that I think is people tease, but it's such a good phrase being seen.
Yeah.
It's what we want.
It's what we want more than anything.
We want to know you really see you see me as special.
You see what's special and unique in me.
You see the good, you see the bad and you accept all of it.
And that's what it means to be a Gobi.
And then you make sure my strengths are the world's worst kept secrets.
And my weaknesses are something you protect me from and compensate for or help me avoid situations where I'm forced to use them.
Oh, that's powerful.
And you're right.
I mean, you can be surrounded by people and still feel very lonely.
It's pretty significant.
So a question people usually have for me is just well, how do you pick your Gobi and how do you transition into that deeper level of relationships?
I think well, let's get context specific here, because for me, I always think about it in terms of the business world.
I just love this.
It's fun for me.
So I'm always thinking from that lens.
So I want to make sure.
Do you want me to answer from a business side or do you want me to answer personally too?
Both.
Both?
Yeah, I think it's, I think it is being able to master the art of communication and vulnerability.
So communication that you know, we talk about this on the podcast all the time, but I think about vulnerability as a skill, um Understanding how and when to do it.
And when you think about it as a skill, then that brings into question okay, what is the right time to use this skill?
How do I use this skill?
With whom do I use this skill as well?
Because you can recognize times where it goes wrong.
Narcissistic vulnerability is one of those times where you are just oversharing and making people feel very uncomfortable and sharing too much too soon in a hyper emotional type of way, where the relationship is not that close where it warrants that type of closeness.
And then the person's like, do you expect me to reciprocate with that, with my trauma?
I just met you 42 seconds ago, right?
And so I think there are so many different ways To do this poorly.
And then I think on the other side you have let's use negotiation as an example where they have that kind of old school mentality where they're like it's not negotiation, it's poker.
I don't want you to see my cards.
And now it's like, I can't even help you.
I can't collaborate with you because I don't know what your goals are.
I don't know who you are, what you want or anything like that.
Yeah.
I've found in these conversations we can share way more than we initially thought we did, but we also have to do it in the right way.
So I like to think about vulnerability in a reciprocal sense.
So I'm going to drip out a little bit of vulnerability and see if you reciprocate.
And if you do, great.
Now I'm going to drip out a little bit more and see if you reciprocate.
And now we can deepen the relationship with some level of mutuality and some level of safety, because we can kind of intuitively understand what's happening and we can kind of control the pace and flow.
And when you start to connect with people in this way, then you start to naturally feel more comfortable sharing your strengths and sharing your weaknesses.
And then sometimes it doesn't even need an explicit conversation.
It just kind of happens and molds organically.
But then every once in a while, your strengths might not be obvious.
Your weakness might not be obvious.
And you might need to have that conversation.
And again, that conversation can be a lot simpler than you thought.
It's like, hey, listen, I want to be honest with you.
When it comes to this thing.
It seems like that comes very easily to you, but it is very difficult for me.
And this other.
It seems like this is something that I'm good at, but it doesn't seem like you're really vibing with that.
Tell me close on that or am I just way off, you know, and then see where the conversation goes.
And I think, especially when you're willing to take that step and just say hey, I'm just not great at this thing.
I think it gives people the license to do the same, because otherwise they might just try to continue to live life with this veneer of perfection, where you never really know who the person really is.
And how lonely that is to have to. fake being someone all the time.
Yeah, because think about it Jamie, because even if you are successful in convincing that you're perfect and have no vulnerabilities,
That's not even a fun way to live life, because you're living life just constantly in fear of being discovered all the time, because you're like man, I'm not perfect.
I don't know when my humanity will show at some point.
And for me it's made it very easy for me to kind of come clean or admit fault in myself, because I want to.
I think about it not just from my perspective but also from the other person's perspective.
I want them to be willing and able to do the exact same thing.
So, Hey, look, I made a mistake.
You see, you see what I did there?
I said, I made a mistake.
I apologize for it.
I'm going to try not to do it again.
So when you do that, Yes.
To do the same thing.
I don't want you to sit here and pretend to be perfect.
We both saw that you made a mistake.
Just own it so we can do better.
And what's so important about what you're saying is I always say, if people just said what they were, thinking I'd be out of a job.
Because how frequently?
Because you're so good at saying to people.
I'm doing this because I want you to do the same thing.
But most people who are not philosopher kings on this topic will say, I made a mistake.
I'm admitting it.
And they stop there and they hope the person gets that you want them to do it.
Some reciprocity later.
But, you know, no one's a mind reader.
And that's why there's a lot of coaching business out there.
Whereas, again, if people just said what they were thinking, I'd be out of a job.
And it's so infrequent that people are willing to say what they're thinking, are willing to own their strengths and weaknesses.
But your idea of the vulnerability trip, I think, is fantastic.
Thank you.
The other interesting thing is when I ask people to talk about who their Gobi is, the first question they have for me is can I pick my spouse or my partner?
And I know you talk about Dr. Whitney all the time.
And I definitely want people to have gobies at work.
So you can't just have one goby.
You have to have gobies in every aspect of your life.
And some of us spend more time at work than at home.
But it is nice to have.
Do you have that in your partnership there as well?
I could go there.
Yeah, for sure.
I think one of the biggest things is Whitney's mentality of she will be ruthlessly, authentically herself and not care.
You know, And for me, I was especially coming from law, which is very conservative.
You know, we are it is kind of conformity is beaten into you throughout your time there.
And even when it comes to there's a bit of an aside even when it comes to the way that you think where are the best.
Legal ideas are largely based on precedent.
You know, this is what other people did.
This is what I'll do.
You know, so she is a great example of what it means to be authentic.
And I tell her all the time, I'm trying to be more like her in that regard.
Be like, find my voice.
And you can see.
If you see how I've been on online and everything, I've been more Kwame than ever before.
And Whitney's been a big part of that.
So that's one of her strengths.
And then for me, I think the strength that I bring to the relationship is more vision, like long-term vision.
So in terms of the direction of the family, where do we live?
What does our lifestyle look like?
Those bigger picture things.
Think that that's what the value that I bring.
And a big part of that is upbringing too, because it came from a single family and she was experienced homelessness from time to time.
And for me, it's like I'm I never had to worry about those types of things.
So I had the luxury and privilege of always thinking differently.
5, 10, 20 years ahead because it was just always guaranteed.
It was assumed.
So I think that background helps me to have a little bit better vision, long term vision and a bigger vision too.
But Whitney obviously is incredibly accomplished being an award winning doctor.
Was a clinical professor as well.
And now she's doing her own her she's doing more of her own thing.
She joined a practice and doing private practice.
So now she has time to explore more of her artistic side and be free.
So I think that's the yin and yang that we have.
Well, I wouldn't be surprised with your very different experiences growing up, if you had different levels of risk aversion as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is where it gets really interesting.
This is where you get healthy conflict.
The times when, maybe because you know, in your book you talk about growing up, being a people, pleaser.
You're willing to take risks.
I mean being an entrepreneur starting a podcast.
That's so risky, because I think your mom was a doctor.
So you just you saw this what's possible and this vision of success and education for yourself.
So you probably grew up with more comfort in taking risks and having your parents' house to always live in.
If God forbid, it hadn't worked.
That's what I told Whit.
I was like, yeah, because you're right.
But my dad is a surgeon.
Mom has a PhD in nutrition.
And so I'm like, Whitney, the floor is not low.
You know, I said, if all else fails, we go through savings.
If all else fails, we downside.
And if all else fails, we move in with my parents for a little bit.
I guarantee you, I'd figure it out by then.
And she's like, yeah, in my life, the bottom is the bottom, bottom, bottom, bottom.
And so whenever there's anything that seems to threaten that, it is not just like oh, we might lose some money.
It triggers financial trauma.
And I even had to – I think one of the biggest challenges that we still try to work through is that for me –
I am a very confident person.
Some may say I do have an ego.
And if somebody that's close to me has nothing short of just ridiculous faith in what it is that I'm doing, it feels very offensive.
It's like, well, how much do I need to accomplish for you to feel financially safe here?
Because this is ridiculous.
Everybody else believes, why are you freaking out?
And that's not very compassionate because of her upbringing.
It's hard for her to feel safe.
She needs a lot of certain things to feel safe.
So my willingness to essentially go all in and risk it all at all times because I just feel like I'll pull it off, and I've always have.
It's just a very different mentality.
So it's helped me to be a bit more conservative at times in ways that were beneficial to the family but also, more importantly, beneficial to the relationship, because there's a level of security she needs in order to feel well.
That is different from mine just because of that upbringing.
Wow.
There's so much to unpack, so many nuggets to unpack in what you just said.
And it's an important lesson that you're sharing in partnership because it could be extreme.
There's 33 million different ways of thinking, according to Gallup.
You know, with their CliftonStrengths top five assessment.
There's 33 million possible combinations of it.
And so, so much conflict happens because we just, our brains are wired differently.
And we have different experiences.
And Different levels of risk aversion and different levels of analytical ability.
And there's so many differences.
And so when we're partnering with someone I can't tell you how many times I've coached teams where one executive says well, it's so obvious that we need to invest our resources in this, this thing that we need to take from good to great.
And someone else will say, but you idiot, this thing's on fire.
That's working.
That's working.
And this this is going to explode.
And the first person.
But even if we put out that fire, it's never going to be the next billion dollar.
And the problem is they're both right.
You know, you know, so it's.
It's just really when you have this partnership, acknowledging, stop not thinking right and wrong.
Start to think differently.
What do we want to accomplish?
Where are we coming from?
Can we pause and get to know each other better and understand the background?
And in the research I was doing for this book.
One of my favorite interviews I've done so far is with Elias Plagianos.
He's a director, award-winning screenwriter.
Definitely check out.
Hit the hitman secret and lies on netflix and he did the crimson mask.
And i was just trying to learn how to write fiction Because you know, I don't know how to write dialogue.
And yet he gave me some of the best leadership advice I've ever received and the best coaching.
And I didn't it's almost a backhanded compliment.
I didn't expect a director and a screenwriter to have.
I didn't acknowledge how important a leadership role that is.
So that was a miss on my part.
But he said, you know, with my I have a villain in my story.
And he said, Jamie, every villain is a hero in their version of their story.
And he said you have to think about your villains and think about how are they the hero in their story.
And I started to apply that with coworkers who were driving me crazy and who I felt like were out to get me.
And in my coaching life I can't tell you how many times executives were like that person's out to get me.
And I'd coach the other person and they never were.
I have never had an instance.
It's just that person had to do their job and the goals were you know.
But it really helped me release anger and frustration with those people when I saw like okay, they're not coming after me.
They're trying to be the hero in their story.
Wow.
Oh, that's so good.
That's so good.
And you're so right too, because most people don't wake up and say I'm planning on being evil today.
They make decisions that have unintended consequences a lot of times.
Yeah.
Indra Nooyi, the former CEO of Pepsi, said, always assume good intentions and it changes everything.
If you assume this person, who feels like they're out to get you, is making your life miserable, you assume they have good intentions.
Think about how they're the hero.
It'll change your ability.
And as you talk about in your TED Talk, you know, it'll calm you down.
Enable you to you know the was it.
The cortisol levels will decrease, you'll have access to your amygdala and be able to have conscious thoughts about the conversation.
Yes.
Oh, you know, something else that just come to mind too, because at the beginning you talked about strengths and weaknesses, the team, and then the story.
The story is something that's really helped me and Whitney.
Because I would like.
When she would have concerns about finances, I was like don't you understand how secure the business is?
And she's like, no, I don't.
I said, I told tell you about the wins.
She said, well, you told me about a deal that you lost and everything.
And that made me scared.
And so what I did and I will concede that a large portion of it was spiteful.
But what I did. what I did was I just took hours and just explained the entirety of the business.
I decided I'm going to treat Whitney like an investor.
So I'm going to give her investor reports every single month.
So I'm like, these are the revenue streams.
This is where it comes in.
This is what is automatic money.
That's guaranteed.
This is what is additional.
So If we lose these contracts on the margins, that's fine because of what is already secure.
So we talk about what's coming up, what's coming up down the road, what each deal makes, and all of that stuff.
What our run rate is for the company, what our burn rate is, how much money we need to make for the rest of the year.
All of that stuff.
And it was like 15 pages.
I was like, take this.
And she's like, I had no idea.
I did not know that the business was so sophisticated and it had so many lines, streams of income and all that stuff.
I truly did not know.
So one of the things that I did that helped that has helped immensely just in the last few months is
Is that for her and my mom, my mom is paranoid as well when it comes to finances.
She's always like, save your money.
I was like, no, I'm going to spend it.
So I give them I give them monthly reports like 10 to 15 pages.
And it really it has done a world of difference when it comes to helping them feel safe and secure, because now they feel like they understand what's happening and why.
Wow.
And so it's not bragging, it's giving your partner comfort.
And in the whole picture.
Something I've observed in coaching for 20 years is that We assume everyone's watching our life like it's a movie, but it's not true.
Like people, are only showing them the, you know the, the Twitter, the 120 character Twitter feed that we show them.
And if they don't know, if they, if we don't tell them our story, they have no idea that we can do that.
And people get so frustrated.
Doesn't everyone see?
They don't see.
No.
They have no idea you're working that like didn't didn't they know I stayed till two in the morning.
Nobody knew because they left at six.
How would they know?
So it's so it is so simple, but so easy for everybody to miss.
It's you're you're absolutely right.
The.
There's that just assumption that they either know or they should know.
And then one of the things I started doing is like, OK, just pick a random friend.
Tell me everything you know about that random friend like their finances and their, like their personal challenges.
Even if it's a close friend, we know just a fraction, because even if it's a friend that we talk to like, let's say, it's a friend that we do a good job of keeping up with and we talk to them twice a month for an hour each.
That means, what is that?
So 24 hours in a year we talk that's like that's all we know of their whole lives.
There's a lot more of their life that existed.
So even even people that we're close to, there's very little that we know.
So again, kind of it goes back to what you're talking about.
We have to be the master of our stories and people will believe what you say about yourself unless you give them a really good reason not to.
But as long as the narrative is cohesive, then you can really control the narrative and help other people to see you the way that you want to be seen.
Absolutely.
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