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In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Black history lives in our stories, our culture, and the conversations we still have in today.
This Black History Month.
The podcast I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either digs into the moments, perspectives and experiences that don't always make the textbook.
Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan.
Bruh had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention.
Listen to I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or simply wherever you get your podcasts.
I didn't.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeart Radio.
Good morning.
This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us.
So today I am delighted to welcome Daniel Coyle to Before Breakfast.
Daniel is the author of the brand new book, Flourish.
He is also the author of the bestselling books, The Culture Code and The Talent Code.
Daniel, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me, Laura.
It's great to be here.
Yeah, very excited to have you and introduce you to any of my listeners who haven't read your work.
So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
You know, I was raised in Alaska and that, as a writer, is always a good spot to live because you see things from a bit of a distance.
It's kind of like being raised in a foreign country.
I've ended up writing.
I was going to be a doctor.
I took a left turn into journalism at the last minute science journalism and I ended up spending a career writing about how people kind of the mechanics beneath magic, like why super talented people are that way or why great cultures are that way.
And I've lately turned my attention into communities.
Like why do certain communities flourish?
Why do certain individuals within those communities flourish and grow?
Yeah, well, what is exactly flourishing?
I mean, because it's a broad topic and sort of a big word.
What would you, how would you define flourishing?
It's joyful, meaningful growth shared.
And the thing, the deep thing to understand about it is that, like, that's kind of how we're built.
We're pre-wired and we require other people.
We require being in community to bring out the best in ourselves.
We kind of have gotten a little bit stuck in this culture as thinking about ourselves just as separated individuals.
Like I need to work on myself, myself, myself.
And that's true.
That's totally true.
But to really get to that next level and to really unlock the parts of yourself that are the deepest, the thing that matters is being connected with others.
Another way to put it is like all flourishing is kind of mutual.
And if we think about our lives and think about our journeys and the people who have brought us here, We're not doing it alone, right?
There's specific conversations.
There's specific relationships.
Relationships maybe, like people have with this podcast, where it's like they're consistently opening up new pathways for you.
And that's what I found in the places that I visited.
These flourishing places like There was this little town in Vermont that's produced like 11 Olympians right.
And they're continually nourishing each other and nurturing each other.
And so these places are like these marvelous gardens, right?
Or a business.
There was a business in Michigan.
It was a tiny deli.
It's grown into this $90 million community of businesses.
And in all those places they're finding ways to get a ton done and be incredibly productive, but also kind of balancing that with relationships, with learning from others, with connecting with others.
And so community is kind of the key to the whole thing.
And the challenge that I think about a lot is How do I bring community into my life when I'm not in community?
How do I like stay connected with others and make that happen in the mornings and the evenings, all the time, to to kind of create that level of energy.
Because in the end, it's not smartness only gets you so far.
It's like this is about this is about energy, growth, joy and meaning.
And those come from from relationships.
It's hard to get those on your own.
Well, what drew you to this topic?
You know, I ended up getting to a point in my life both my parents passed away in kind of quick succession.
And that sort of wakes you up and it makes you see that this whole thing is short.
And I had spent my life kind of studying people who were super, super talented in groups that were super, super high performing.
And I saw that they were all kind of climbing this mountain and those mountaintops when they got.
There are kind of lonely windy, empty places.
Like there's so many successful people that are kind of sad, right?
Like we've all met them, like they have everything, but they're not fulfilled.
And so it got me interested in to get off the mountaintop and get into the valleys and the gardens.
Like what are these places that are growing people?
You know, what is this?
There's a neighborhood in Paris that has transformed itself from like this really disconnected modern place to something that feels like a little village, like everybody knows each other and everybody's connected and growing.
And that's where I spent the last five years hanging out.
And there's the old saying like.
Every writer writes the book that they need.
And that was the book that I needed at that time.
And it ends up being kind of all about that process of joyful, meaningful growth shared.
And that was kind of a surprise.
I had kind of always bought into the idea that you can do it alone.
And this book has really brought in the truth that the power of community is really transformative.
The power of community.
And so how do we get that community into our lives in a regular way?
Well, that is a good question which we should then start to address, because somebody hears this and like yes, I would love to be part of a garden.
I want to be in this flourishing community.
But we may not have magically been dropped in this community in Paris or this town in Vermont that you know is raising up all these Olympians, and so forth.
So if we find ourselves in sort of a more normal situation and we have some community, but maybe not as much as we want, what are some things we should start to do?
Yeah, a lot of it is rooted in the way we pay attention to things.
And what I found these places doing regularly, almost like it was a physical workout.
Is they really embraced ritual?
These places really embraced ritual as a way to connect, but also as a way to kind of ground yourself, your individual self.
Modern life is like this incredibly fast race.
You're like chasing, you're hunting, you're playing this game.
And they had a way of using ritual to slow down and stop.
And for me, that was the big takeaway.
Ritual is super powerful, to take just a moment to slow down, to do something that's not productive.
Because that's really the weird thing about rituals.
We focus a lot on habits in our life, like we want to build good habits.
Habits kind of automate your life, right?
They make things quicker and better.
But rituals animate your life.
Rituals give it connection and energy.
And so these places did the unusual thing.
They were incredibly productive because they had the ability to stop, which is just kind of beautiful and counterintuitive.
We don't think that, in order to kind of get the most of our lives, that the key thing we need to do is to kind of learn how to stop and let go.
And that's what they were really good at doing.
I met a guy He studied at I think it was the Harvard Divinity School and he had developed a little ritual that he did every morning.
That really grounded him.
And when he'd be brushing his teeth, he would just say to himself this quick mantra, which was every day contains joy and suffering, and this day is no different.
And it kind of makes everything a little... It shifts your attention a little bit.
It shifts your perspective.
And...
I met that deli that I mentioned in Michigan.
The guy had a great.
He would just teach his people SBA, he called it, which was stop, breathe and appreciate.
Just little moments of mindfulness that lets you zoom out and connect with what really matters.
So those are like ways of building sort of a sense of connection that allow you to get out of your own narrow attention and into kind of a broader attention.
And The strange thing about it that ended up kind of really making it stick is when you look into why that is, the mechanics of what that is, it turns out that we don't have just one attention system.
We have two.
We have task attention, which is what we're in most of the time, super narrow.
I need to get from A to B, I need to get the kids picked up and I need to get that presentation done.
But then we also have something called relational attention.
Relational attention is really broad, and it's how we create meaning and connection.
And so when they were saying that little – it's almost like task attention is this narrow spotlight.
Its job is to see the world as this flat puzzle we should solve, and it makes us kind of anxious to be in task attention all the time, because the world is just this game that we're constantly catching up with.
But relational attention, which is where community happens.
Relational attention is like huh, what's that mysterious thing over there?
I want to check that out.
Or who am I connected to down deep?
Or what is their joy and suffering in the world every day?
Where am I seeing that?
And it grounds us and it gives us stability and calm and peace.
And so those moments...
Ritual are really ways of like lighting the lamp of relational attention and letting us let go of that narrow task attention that makes us always feel like we're chasing after something and never getting it.
All right.
Well, we're going to talk a little bit more about ritual when we get back from our first ad break.
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What if mind control is real?
If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?
Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?
When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.
It's about engineering consciousness.
Mind Games is the story of NLP, its crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits.
He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.
The biggest mind game of all?
NLP might actually work.
This is wild.
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband Mike was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
To keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro.
This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.
You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people.
Your predator might go up in good.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Well, I am here talking with Daniel Coyle, who's the author of the brand new book, Flourish.
She is also the author of The Culture Code and The Talent Code.
We've been talking about ritual.
Now, there's an interesting thing here of like group ritual, right?
Because that's part of, you know, our relational energy here.
And I mean, you mentioned the divinity professor who starts with his own personal ritual.
I wonder if somebody's listening to this and, like I, would like some sort of group ritual in my life.
What can they do to start setting something like that up?
Yeah, it could be the smallest is the easiest, right?
And one thing that I've done for myself lately is just try to make one little reach out a day to somebody in my life.
And it may be tiny, maybe a text to a guy I used to play football with in my neighborhood.
It might be something to an old neighbor, but one simple reach out a day.
My wife and I do this silly thing too.
In the morning when we have coffee, We take a second and we just clink our cups together and we say clink or we say cheers, right?
It's so dumb, right?
But in that moment of like – it's not productive.
It doesn't create anything.
It just creates this moment of like the small connection.
And so finding those small connections, and the rule when you find them is – they don't need to be productive.
They actually should not be productive.
Like if you have a tradition with your kids of always going to Chipotle after soccer practice or whatever, or having this particular stupid movie that you watch together every year at a certain time that everyone dislikes.
Having something silly actually is where ritual can begin, because it actually needs not to be productive.
We had, yeah, go ahead, sorry.
Well, we were going to talk about the difference between sort of habit and ritual then, because I mean, one of the issues is, when we do things over and over again, they often do become automatic and more mindless.
So is there a way to make something that you are choosing to do over and over again?
Stay in the mindful category.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think the thing that it should contain, the thing that I've seen it contain, is an element of beauty to it.
People who, I know a person who every time they sit down to write, they light a candle.
Now, lighting a candle doesn't help you write better.
There's no use.
There's no utility there.
But there's a beauty to that, right?
There's a morning walk that's very traditional in Buddhist thought where you go walk and you go see the sunrise right.
That's the habit.
But the thing that distinguishes it is that presence of beauty, that presence of something bigger than yourself, right?
The difference between a ritual and a habit is that a habit helps you get through your life more cleanly and efficiently.
It gets things done.
A ritual, on the other hand, connects you to something bigger than your life.
It makes you disappear for a second.
And so that's the key.
If you have a ritual that makes you disappear a little bit, whether that's watching a sunrise or reading a particular bit of passage, a poetry that wakes you up in that way.
The key is that it's not useful and that it contains something big and beautiful.
It can be anything.
So you have an image in the book which I think you borrow from one of the people you interview about red, yellow and green doors.
Can you talk about that?
Yes, an idea from a psychologist at Columbia called Lisa Miller.
And her idea is, and it's very powerful, is rooted in our attention, in that attention.
We go through life kind of in narrow mode often.
And we're looking, we're alert for green doors that are open and red doors that are closed, right?
Green doors means do this, right?
There's an opening there.
Go.
That's an opportunity.
Red doors means there's not an opportunity there.
But what this idea points out is that the key to fulfillment and flourishing is looking for the yellow doors.
The ones that aren't necessarily go and they're not necessarily stop, but they appear out of the corner of your eye.
And there are opportunities to explore, opportunities to try something new, opportunities to have a conversation with someone that you might not normally have a conversation with.
And switching your attention, and it's very hard to do.
It's really tricky to sort of wake up and say, wait a minute, was that a yellow door?
Can I give that a try?
But it really is transformative because it knocks you out of that narrow task attention into that broader relational attention.
And it's the way life actually is.
Life is not a machine.
We sort of think of it as a machine.
But machines are about being predictable reliable, doing the same thing every time.
And that's not life, right?
Life is actually alive.
Life is this complex journey.
And when you look, reflect on your own life or talk about anybody, about their life, any remarkable life, What you find is that it ain't a straight line.
There's all kinds of twists.
It's a squiggly line.
If you were to take a piece of paper and chart out the journey of your life, what got you to this point right now, you would not be drawing straight lines.
You'd be drawing, oh, and then I failed at this, but it opened up this doorway over here.
And then I failed at that and it opened up this door over here.
And then I happened to meet this person and it opened up this door over here.
We're all enmeshed in this bigger ecosystem and it's all curved just like a tangled vine or any ecosystem.
It's curvy lines.
And yellow doors are the junctures in those curvy lines.
Yellow doors are the moments when new pathways open up for us to explore.
Taking a moment every day, and this could be a ritual.
In fact, say what yellow doors did I notice today?
Or what yellow doors might be in my pathway today?
Who new can I talk to?
What skill could I test out?
Can be a really powerful practice.
And I could say for myself, it's kind of changed.
It's brought me into connection with groups of new friends.
I got an invite a couple of years ago. go indoor climbing and i've always hated heights i don't like climbing it seems finicky and funny and difficult um but i thought like yeah yeah yellow door like i'll give it a try and now like three years later they're some of my best friends in the world so It brought me in touch with new pathways and people and connected me to a new community.
And again, being smart can only get you so far.
Community and connection and meaning is what life is made of.
Yeah, we talk about being open to serendipity around here because, I mean, the truth is, if you already knew about something, you would be doing it right as a talented, ambitious person.
If you knew about it already, you would be doing it.
So you have to leave yourself open to the things you don't know.
Which can be challenging because there are a lot of bad ideas in the world and difficult and demanding people.
So people put up boundaries for good reasons.
But you have to make sure that the good stuff can still get in front of you, even if it doesn't have an explicit invitation.
Right.
That's right.
And even if it doesn't feel very good at first, you know there's a lot of stuff about.
You know it's annoying to fail at stuff.
It's annoying to try things at first.
It's difficult and painful.
But when you begin to see that difficulty and pain as part of a larger squiggly line journey of your life and you begin to reflect on how you got here and there definitely was difficulty and pain in that way like
You know, all that stuff is part of the journey and embracing that really helps open up new pathways.
All right.
Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then we'll be back with more from Daniel Coyle.
Run a business and not thinking about podcasting.
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And as the number one podcaster, I heart's twice as large as the next two combined.
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What if mind control is real?
If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?
Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?
When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.
Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?
I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.
Can you get someone to join your cult?
NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.
NLP, aka neurolinguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology.
Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.
It's about engineering consciousness.
Mind Games is the story of NLP.
It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits.
He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.
The biggest mind game of all?
NLP might actually work.
This is wild.
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband, Mike, was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
To keep this secret for so many years, he's like a seasoned pro.
This is a story about the end of a marriage, but it's also the story of one woman who was done living in the dark.
You're a dangerous person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people.
Your creditor might go up in good.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Well, I am talking with Daniel Coyle, who is the author of the brand new book Flourish, also the author of the books The Culture Code, The Talent Code.
So, Daniel, let's talk about your own personal schedule.
This is obviously a show about time management and productivity.
So what do your days tend to look like?
You know, as a writer and as the father of four, sort of unpredictable and chaotic would be words that come to mind at times.
And so every day can bring something totally different.
It might be a conversation with somebody like you.
It might be researching.
It might be interviewing.
It might be running kids around.
Um, but the.
So each day I find that like I have to kind of ground myself in what the real meaning of that day is and take a minute beforehand to kind of figure things out.
So I sit down with my coffee and I take a three by five card, really small.
And then I end up kind of making notes while I drink coffee about what the day might contain.
And how are you choosing that?
Are you basing it off like a longer term priority list on your calendar?
I mean, what are the inputs for that three by five card?
Each project has got its own set of rhythms and phases.
So if I'm in a research phase, and I'm thinking about that, if I'm a writing phase, I'm thinking about that.
If I'm having conversations with folks like you, I'm thinking about that.
So it's kind of variable, but each day has got its own rhythm.
I find what's powerful is to sort of find time to sort of zoom out and try to see things fresh.
And staying off technology seems to really help that.
Just having that little card to write on where there's not much space.
It's really intentional.
Like I don't have a big sheet of paper or anything like that.
It's like the little card makes me say if I could write today on a matchbook like what matters today.
What really matters?
I've got a friend who's got a better one where he's got a little sheet, but it's divided up.
He's got the family.
What's the family thing?
What's the work thing?
What's the individual improvement thing?
So I could be way better at it than I am.
But that idea of trying to get it on a matchbook is sort of liberating, because it's easy to feel overwhelmed.
Yeah.
Well, do you have any sort of morning routine?
I mean, you're writing on the index card and you're having your coffee.
Are there any other elements of this that tend to be the same day to day?
You know, I do this weird little ritual thing where I put some saline in my eye and then I kind of think for a second that I want to see clearly.
Seeing is really important to what I do.
And so it's just stupid, but it's like it's still powerful for me to be like to ground myself and like I need to see things accurately.
Like if I don't see things accurately, it's going to be a tough day.
And I've definitely in my life gone down a ton of rabbit holes because I haven't seen things accurately.
So that's very meaningful to me.
And the other thing I've been trying lately is an idea that I write about in the book, which is morning pages.
Have you come across that before?
Yeah, with Julia Cameron.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's absolutely brilliant.
And it was hard for me to do because I like my writing to make sense and come together.
And she, of course, is telling you, just go.
Just say whatever's on your mind.
Write that down very quickly and spend 15, 20 minutes, three pages kind of writing, sort of purging yourself of everything that's floating around.
And I found that to be again, really powerful, because it shifts my attention in the same ways that did for the.
You know, as these sort of practices do, I ended up writing about Julia Cameron in the flourish book because it's such a powerful way of shifting our attention, and our attention is at the very, very core of how we spend our days and our lives.
And so it's helped me learn to sense, am I in the narrow mode right now?
Or am I not in the narrow mode?
And so it's almost like, Learning about fitness.
Before you understood that jogging made you feel better or lifting weights made you feel better.
We didn't have a clue about that.
We just sort of felt like it was healthy to be whatever size you were and however big you were.
And you said that was fixed.
We're learning about our attentional health in exactly the same way.
Like right now.
There's super interesting research and I write about some of the book.
But this idea that we've got these two modes and we can choose and we can tell when we're in each one and learning how to do that, learning to say whoops, I'm focused, I'm spotlight, I'm narrow, I'm task attention, right now.
And then saying I need to do something to let go, to help me.
Let go and really see, really create some meaning here, really try to understand what's happening.
I find that to be like transformatively powerful to sort of say, your attention is not one thing.
It's two things.
Dial in to which one you're in right now.
And we need both.
I mean, you've got to execute something that has to get done.
And that's the focus is very good.
Maybe coming up with the ideas or thinking something differently might be for the other form of attention.
Exactly.
And to build on that, it's best when you have the one serving the other.
Like I'm going to pay attention to the big picture but then I'm going to do the narrow thing that helps serve that.
And that's the pattern that I see in a lot of flourishing lives.
It's like they're using their narrow attention to To create relationships.
They're using their narrow attention to nurture community.
It's beautiful rather than the opposite where they're just simply focused on the narrow thing.
But using that to serve your neighbor, using that to serve the relationships in your life that matter, doing concrete things to nurture the garden of your life.
So I always ask my guests what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
Wow.
What is something to take a day from great to awesome?
We did it for Christmas.
My kids know that I love games.
And so they kind of invented these games a while back that we've continued to play, play and they're absolutely goofy.
Like but when we're together we'll we'll, we'll sometimes have these, these quick Olympiads, right.
Just a quick Olympics.
And it's like running around the kitchen Island as fast as you can or um, you know, skateboarding somewhere or whatever.
But they're, they're all goofy, but there's an award ceremony.
There are prizes.
Um, And when that happens on a day like that, is just just totally playing with, with a group of people that you've known.
And now they're kind of becoming adults and it's even getting more silly than it used to.
That took a day from from great to awesome.
So just like the Family Olympics was an absolute blast.
All right.
Family Olympics.
I love it.
What's something you're looking forward to right now?
You know, I am looking forward to, I do some work with the Cleveland Guardians baseball team.
I've consulted with them for about the last 10 years.
And so like, you know, baseball is kind of designed in this rhythm.
It's kind of designed to break your heart, you know, and now spring training is just around the corner.
And like that idea that this, here comes this new season.
As a writer, you're alone all the time.
And this work has kind of like saved me in terms of providing this community really, of people that were trying to win games.
And it's totally delightful and fun.
So I find myself thinking about that a lot.
Yeah, baseball is a lot of time.
Exactly.
Each game less time than it used to be.
I mean, the upside of the pitch clock, but it's still epic.
It's epically long, which makes you kind of like, and it's so useless.
Talk about rituals.
I mean, they figured it all out, right?
It's all about like, how do we hang out together for like four hours or, if you're a player much, much longer and enjoy each other?
And so it's sort of like life.
150, 160 times a year.
Yeah, right.
It's wild.
Yeah, it is.
It is.
But baseball is amazing.
So Daniel, where can people find you?
DanielCoyle.com is a good place to start.
The new book comes out February 3rd and that should be available all over the place.
So that's a good place to go.
Sounds good.
Well, Daniel, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening.
If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura, at lauravandercamcom.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeart Media.
For more podcasts from iHeart Media, please visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.
Her husband Mike was on his laptop.
What was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever.
I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing.
And immediately, the mask came off.
You're supposed to be safe.
That's your home.
That's your husband.
Listen to Betrayal Season 5 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Black history lives in our stories, our culture, and the conversations we still have in today.
This Black History Month.
The podcast I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either digs into the moments, perspectives and experiences that don't always make the textbook.
Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan.
Bruh had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention.
Listen to I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or simply wherever you get your podcasts.
I didn't What if mind control is real?
If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?
When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.
I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.
NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.
Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both?
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Guaranteed human.
