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Jay Shetty. The one, the only...
Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose.
I'm so grateful that you decided to tune in today.
Today's guest is someone that I've been excited to have on the podcast for a long, long time.
I interviewed him in a previous life when I was at the Huffington Post for one of my first ever Follow the Reader series, and I couldn't wait to have him on for a story that I'll share shortly.
I'm speaking about the one and only Simon Sinek, best -selling author, speaker, founder of the Optimism Company, known for his groundbreaking work on leadership and purpose.
Simon's TED Talk on the concept of why has been viewed over 60 million times.
And Simon's books, including Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, and The Infinite Game, have shaped how leaders inspire action and build impactful organizations.
Simon also hosts his own amazing podcast called a bit of optimism, where I got to be a guest. Where he talks to people who inspire him about life, love and leadership.
Please welcome to it on purpose, Simon Sinek.
Simon, I am so happy to have you here.
Jay it's, it's been a long time coming.
Oh my gosh, so I have to tell you, so when I got to New York and I got given my own show, it was on Facebook Live and you were top of my list and you were launching a new book that week.
And I just, I was so excited to tell you this story because the story I told you in the hallways of the HuffPost was that when I was a monk, one of our monk teachers was giving out Start With Why as a gift to the monks.
And he said to all the monks, he was like, you have to read this book.
This is important reading.
And the majority of the monks are like, well it's not scripture, so who cares?
Like it was like this kind of, not the best monk attitude, if I would say.
Very, very un -monkey.
Very un -monkey, but that happens too.
I read it and it was life changing, And it was life changing, not because I was starting a business or because I was a leader, it was actually life changing from a life perspective.
So I applied start with Y to my life.
And that was remarkable for me.
So I wanted to share that story with you.
I had no idea. So badly then.
I mean, how long ago was that?
I mean, that was a very long time ago.
That was exactly nine years ago.
Yeah, I mean. I remember exactly where it was, too.
I remember that building, that big white building, Down and where it was like Astor Place or something like that.
Yeah. So I wanted to ask you because I was thinking about that experience in that moment and by the way, a lot of your work has felt that way to me, but I wanted to ask you if someone read all your books, they listened to all your podcast episodes, they watched all your YouTube videos, what type of life would they be leading if they listened, watched, learned and applied.
Well, the key is there is applied.
My work fundamentally is about human beings.
It's about who we are as human beings.
It's how we relate to other human beings and how we connect with other human beings.
It's fundamentally about relationships.
That's what the work is about.
Which is one of the reasons I think it resonates and continues to resonate over time.
And why I'm not really threatened by AI or anything like that, because it really is about this.
It's the ability to make eye contact with somebody and how to connect with somebody.
And so I hope that if somebody is a student of my work, they're on the same journey that I'm on. Cause all my work is semi -autobiographical, you know.
The life they're gonna be living is a life filled with support and love, where they'll still have ups and downs, and they'll still have their struggles.
But that they will feel equipped to take on those struggles with greater confidence and greater calm.
And have that same skill set to do for their friends that they can be a rock for their friends who are going through difficult things as well, even if they don't necessarily know the solutions.
You're talking about your work's obviously been about human relationships.
What has surprised you most about human behavior in what you've looked at when it comes to friendships, relationships, romantic, or...?
It's all, I mean, look.
You know this, it's all remarkably consistent.
That the problems we have at work are the same problems we have at home are the same problem we have with our friends.
It's all the same thing.
I can give advice to somebody who's a leader in an office or a middle manager or entry level and I can give them advice like if you get a response that's above a five, it's about something else.
And if I'm giving somebody relationship advice, I can say if you get a response that's above a five, it's about something else.
It's always the same thing because fundamentally it's just human beings trying to get along with human beings.
Now, obviously the contexts are different, the goals are different, but fundamentally The breakdowns in communications, the repair that needs to be done, it's all very similar stuff.
It's listening. It's how to give and receive feedback.
It's how to have an effective confrontation.
It's how to hold space.
It's all the same. And it's always funny to me.
Because I work with every industry.
I've worked with every single industry.
And they all think their problems are unique.
And all their problems are the same.
Yeah, I learned that when I went on my world tour two years ago.
We did nearly 40 cities across the world.
And everyone was like, oh, what was this place like?
What was that place like?
Of course, there were local quirks.
They were like, Australia had more banter.
Like everyone quipped back, if you made a joke.
And everyone in Boston was very handsy.
Like everyone would like grab me when I walked in the crowd and be like, pick my girlfriend, take me out.
And you know, it was very like active, but overall we laughed at the same things.
We cry at the same things.
we get excited about the same things.
We oooh at the same things.
Like, there's this.
And I wanted to tell people that I was like, wait a minute, I just went across the world.
And like you're saying, you went to every industry and you saw that.
Why is it then belonging and identity feels like it needs to be found in that which is different, right?
We find a different football club that gives us a sense of identity.
We find, I'm in a swim club or a run club or a I like nonfiction books or like fiction books.
It's like, what is, then, the dissecting of that for finding identity, belonging, community?
Where does that kind of come in?
As an aside, it's really funny, because when I do travel around the world, I don't change any of my stories.
I don't change any of my cases.
They all say, please don't use American examples.
And I was like, that's fine.
And sure, sure. And again, they all understand the lessons.
They all laugh at the same places.
The responses are different.
The English, they sit there stone faced.
And I was like, am I bombing here?
And at the end, they come up to me like, that was amazing.
You give me a little love when I'm on the stage where the Americans is, you know, it's all right there.
What you see is what you get.
But we can't belong to everything because then there's no such thing as belonging.
And it's not sufficient to say, well, we're all human beings.
I mean, you know, we're tribal animals and our sense of safety comes from feeling safe in the tribe.
And so the question is, well, what are the definitions of the tribe?
And it can come in many different ways and we can be members of multiple tribes simultaneously.
You mentioned some of them.
I like this football club.
I'm a member of this church, this company, this group of friends.
I have this common interest, whether it's a run club or Comic -Con or whatever it is.
And we look for those common things so that we feel psychologically safe.
And the quickest way to feel psychologically safe is with somebody who looks like me, worships like me, acts like me, has the same hobbies as me.
Those are superficial and those are easy.
and the real close memberships come when we can share values.
But it makes perfect sense why we'd want to make things smaller and smaller.
Remember the Dr. Seuss book, The Sneetches?
It's like, we all want to belong.
And the easiest way, the best way to belong is if we're different from them.
And then I'm belonging, because I'm different to you, but I'm like them.
Yeah, it's like that idea of you can only get groups to organize if there's a common enemy.
It's like if we know what we're against, then we know what we're for.
And it kind of becomes easier to organize humans.
It's easier to know what you're for when you can see what you're against because knowing what you're for tends to be pretty ethereal, what you're against tends to be pretty tangible.
And so we're very visually driven animals.
So it's very easy to default to that which we can see countermeasure.
And so that's why we tend to love metrics and things like that.
We think about the end result, the metrics, the money before we think about well, taking care of the people, the culture, the leadership, because one is easy to measure and one is hard to measure, right?
Not that it doesn't exist, just hard to measure.
And so, same thing, I can more easily have a sense of what I stand for, if I can see what I am against. Yeah, exactly.
And the nuance there is, yes, common enemies are valuable, but when it becomes what I would call more healthy is I know what I believe, I know what I stand for, and I can see what's standing in the way.
I'm not particularly anti this group.
What I'm for is on the other side of that wall.
And so, I don't necessarily want to hurt you or harm you but I need to find a way to get through this to get to what's on the other side of the wall.
Whereas if you don't have a sense of purpose, if there is no cause, then I don't know what I stand for.
I just have the wall.
And it's easily to rail against the wall but the problem is what happens if you get through it.
And we've seen this time and time again, which it's very easy to rally against something and then you destroy it or you win or whatever it is, and then you're like, we didn't think we'd get here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Where when you're purpose driven, you always know what's in the distant future, even though there are obstacles along the way.
Yeah, I don't even think it's the language that we use anymore in society, but there's this feeling around everyone.
We know that there's a loneliness epidemic.
People are more disconnected.
I think I read a statistic that said Like 65 % of people feel disconnected from others and the world.
Definitely purpose is lacking or vision is lacking or clarity.
And it's interesting because even though, and I don't think we necessarily talk about it in that way to your friend.
Like you don't wake up and call your friend and go, I have no purpose today.
Like I don't think people really do that on a daily basis.
I think people wake up feeling brain fog and exhausted and overworked and burnt out.
Like that's the language that we use, but they're connected.
Right? Like that's kind of the space in which you sit, which is recognizing that, well, we're dealing with all of these things, but they're actually coming from a lack of all of this.
I think that's really right.
And what we think is the cause of things are very often symptoms. Or if we do recognize them as symptoms, we falsely diagnose what the cause may be.
So let's take one that you mentioned, which is burnout.
Right, I'm feeling burnt out.
It must be because of my job, right?
right? It must be because of my boss.
It must be because of my career, right?
It makes sense. It's where I feel it, right?
But perhaps it's something else.
Perhaps it's a sense of loneliness.
In fact, DD Halfhill, she came on the podcast and explained this to me.
It was amazing, which is she was in the military and she's got her troops and there was an issue with burnout and people were exhausted.
They were struggling and they all said, I'm burnt out, and they didn't know what to do.
and there's nothing they could do because the tempo of the operations, the ups tempos was intense and it's not slowing down.
So, what's a leader supposed to do when the team says, I'm burnt out and I can't keep up?
Right? So, I'm not even sure what her motivation was.
I have to go back and listen.
But I think maybe it's because the way she felt, she simply asked the room, how many of you are feeling lonely?
And the number of hands that went up was astonishing.
And she realized it wasn't the ups tempo, it was the sense of loneliness that was giving the feeling of burnout and the feeling of overwhelm.
And so the way she dealt with people's burnout was not by giving them vacations or giving them days off.
What she did was she did the hard work of helping them not feel alone, checking in with them as human beings.
And I think people's burnout started to subside when somebody was doing the hard work of making sure they knew that they weren't alone in this world.
I mean, I love that example because it completely shifts your perspective.
Because you're over here trying to solve this problem.
And then you realize, oh, it's actually over here.
There's almost more places to belong, but there's less bigger places to belong.
So in the past, like you said, you'd have church or your place of worship.
The company was a big part of your identity.
And then family was big.
And now families are spread over, even myself.
Like, my wife and I don't live anywhere near our family.
You don't live that close to your family.
so that's kind of broken over time.
Places of faith, some people have them, but they're not as popular.
Some places as they used to be.
Church membership is down.
Yeah, exactly. So that's there as well.
And then on top of that, you have the breakdown in company in terms of people not necessarily, people either love where they work or they absolutely hate it, and it's a chore.
So you're losing these very big places of belonging.
Or at least, if you see the words on a wall, you don't believe that they're lived.
And so, there's a disconnect.
Should we be relying on our friends now?
Is that where we have to go?
Or, where do you go when you see these big symbols of belonging kind of disconnected?
So, I mean, you're touching on something which, if you go back to like the 1950s, right?
Which is, we went to church for our sense of values.
Work was just a place to make a living.
They took care of us, and we took care of them.
And, we were working decades at one company that was considered normal.
You know, you got your sense of community from the bowling league.
And you knew your neighbors and sometimes you even had barbecues with your neighbors on the weekends.
And so there were these, there was a sense of community and there were many communities to which we were able to partake, with whom we were able to partake.
And then things changed.
The world changes for various reasons.
The bowling clubs went away.
Church membership declined.
I don't really know the neighbors anymore.
And all of a sudden we started putting pressure on work to fill all the voids.
Now I want my work to give me a sense of values and purpose and I want work to provide my social life, and I want work to provide my sense of community, my sense of belonging.
And now let's throw politics in.
I want my work to match my politics as well.
And it's not a good thing or a bad thing.
It just isn't is, and most companies are ill -equipped to even know what to do there.
You can't push back because it's the world we live in.
And so companies now actually do have to make some decisions where and how they want to play.
And we do have to offer some sense of belonging community and set of values, because that's where else are people going to get it?
And when you ask about friends I find friendship and the concept of friendship super fascinating.
If you ask most people, are you a good friend, most people say, yeah, I'm a good friend.
And if you peel the onion, just one layer, you find out that most of us are not great friends.
Would you cancel on a friend for a meeting or would you cancel on a meeting for a friend?
Oh, but my friend would understand.
We sort of take our friends for granted that way.
If your marriage is struggling, what do you do?
You go for couples counseling because you don't wanna just throw the relationship away.
We've invested this amount.
We're gonna do the work first. And if we can't do the work, then okay, but we're gonna do the work.
Why aren't there friendship counselors?
Why is there no friendship therapy?
I saw it happen just two weeks ago.
Two people who defined each other as best friends, they talked every day.
Something happened.
They both blame each other, but there was a fight.
they haven't talked since.
And I've talked to them and said, what's going on?
They're like, the friendship is over.
And I was like, well, isn't it worth, what about the friendship leading up to it?
How can you just walk away with it?
Maybe I was wrong. Maybe they were never my friend.
Which of course is complete nonsense.
And it was just so upsetting to me that the fragility of the friendship and how we treat friendships so differently.
And the skills of good friendship are the same skills.
We talked about it before, relationships relationships are the same skills as marriage or any kind of romantic relationship.
Do your friends know how to hold space for you when you're struggling?
Do your friends know how to listen to you when you just need somebody to listen, not fix?
And, I mean, I'll tell you from personal experience, I was accused by many of my friends that I was a terrible listener.
And I would say, you do know what I do for a living, right?
Like, You do know, right?
I'm a great listener.
You're a professional listener.
I'm a great listener.
And then I took this listening class.
And what I learned was that I am a fantastic listener with people I will never talk to again for the rest of my life.
But when it came to my intimate relationships and my close friends, terrible.
Terrible. That's a great realization.
Terrible. And just cause I had the skills, I wasn't applying them to the place that was actually more important than anywhere else.
The first thing I did after I got out of this class is I called all of my close friends and I was like, I just found out I'm a bad listener and I owe you an apology.
They're like, yeah, what took you so long, right?
But the point is is the skills are there and sometimes we actually are good at applying them in different contexts and circumstances at work or whatever.
And we're junk at applying them to our friends.
And the irony is for you to have a successful romantic relationship or successful marriage or personal relationship, you need to have good friends around you because when you have stress in that relationship, you gotta have a safe space that you can go vent or talk about it or get advice or get perspective.
Somebody will slap you around and be like, that's your fault, right?
When things go wrong at work, you're struggling with a colleague, you're struggling with a project, you're struggling with your boss, you're struggling with, whatever it is.
You better have good friends who can give you perspective, of slap you around and tell you no, that's on you.
But then where do we go when we're having friend issues?
You know? And you start to realize we just treat friends like these disposable things, which I find so upsetting, because the joke is to have a successful marriage, to have success at work, to be able to manage stress in our lives, friends.
Friends, they're the ultimate biohack.
They fix depression.
They fix anxiety. They fix inability to cope with stress.
Even the obsession with longevity that's going on right now, you know, people talk about blue zones.
and you know Dan Buettner's work.
And everybody talks about their Mediterranean diet.
Now they walk everywhere and, but there's very little talk about how they have dinner with each other every single night, that they are convening with friends all the time.
You know, we don't talk about that.
I want to, I want to dig into that a little bit because I feel similarly.
And it's interesting, I observed two types of people.
One type of person was never that close to their family and therefore friends became their family.
And then there's the other type of person that's so close to their family that they rely less on their friends.
So when I look at my wife, she's really close with her mom and she's really close to their sister.
And they are her friends.
They act as her friends in all of the ways you mentioned.
And when I look at me, someone who was less close with my family or my family unit, even though me and my sister are good friends and my mom is too, my friends became my family.
So I'm very focused on developing community beyond family because that's what I've always had to rely on.
And so it's interesting when you look at that because you're like, all right, well, is it that those of us who have family don't invest in friendships as much because we don't need them?
I think that's a good question, and I don't think it's an either or, I think it's a both.
And again, remember, if you go back to how we evolved, we're tribal animals.
We lived in groups never bigger than about 150ish, plus or minus.
And what worked was, you had your family, of course, but the community helped raise your kids.
It's really funny if you look at just rich and poor, those who have and those who don't.
If you go to a poorer neighborhood, people sit on the front porch, and their kids play in the front, and they raise each other's kids.
And as soon as you start having any kind of wealth, you move to the back.
Wow. That's a great point.
You put up fences and you have to raise your own kids.
And you know, the idea that the community looks out for the kids is actually correct.
Like that's how we sort of work together.
So I don't think it's an either or.
I think it's a both.
I mean, I don't know if you've ever had.
Did you ever have the chance to go to Dharavi in Mumbai?
No, no. So Dharavi is the largest slum in Bombay in Mumbai.
And just to give you a sense of scale, right, Manhattan is 13 miles long, two miles It's about 26 square miles, and the island of Manhattan, the residents are about 1 .5 million.
1 .5 million people live on the island of Manhattan.
So if you've ever visited Manhattan or seen pictures of Manhattan, you can get a sense of population density.
Obviously, the population goes up during the day during work, but you can get a sense of the density over 26 square miles, okay?
Dharavi is one square mile, and there's about 750 to a million people that live there.
They're not 100 % sure over the exact number.
So you can just imagine the intensity and the density, which is why when disease shows up, it runs rampant, right, because it's just so close.
And you're walking on Daravi, and it's not sanitary, and there's live electric wires hanging down.
And if you touch one by accident, you're a goner.
And kids are just running around by themselves or with their friends because the community looks out for them.
It is an amazing feeling of looking out for each other.
And when you talk about belonging, and because we do, we look for it.
We look for things to join and we push our kids to join things so they have these friends.
And it's easier for kids because they're at school, right?
So kids go to school, they're about the same age, they have similar stresses, the same teachers, the same homework, same, same, same, same, same, same, same.
And so common experience is really the same stresses of adolescents and growing up and like they have very common experience so it's very easy to connect.
As soon as you leave school, still pretty easy, because your entry level, with all the other entry levels, all bumbling and fumbling, trying to make a career, and then all of a sudden it starts to separate.
Your friends start at different ages, and now you don't have common experience.
And I think friendship actually gets more difficult as we get older, not less difficult.
Absolutely, and that's why I wanted to dig into it, because I can agree with you more, especially when people have moved.
I remember the first time I interviewed a Brit on the podcast. And it was different.
It was this really different experience.
You connected with them?
So much. Yeah, that makes sense.
Because yeah but I hadn't, it didn't like register until I did that.
Where I was like, wait a minute, why do we have so much chemistry?
And I was like, oh wait a minute, of course we both talk about football, both grew up in some part of London.
Had similar types of friends.
It makes sense. And it makes sense but it didn't register because I've been interviewing Americans for so long.
I'll give you a funny analogy, right.
Just to drive the kids home.
Because beating a dead horse is kind of my thing.
So are you friends with everybody in California?
Not everybody. And you live in California.
Yeah, not everybody.
Are you friends with everybody in California?
Not everybody. No, of course not, right?
It's ridiculous. But if you go to Michigan and you meet somebody from California, you're like, hey, we're from!
And you're, like, connected.
OK. Now, you go on holiday.
Let's say you're in Paris.
You're standing on the Paris metro.
And you hear an American accent.
And you're, hey, where are you guys from?
You're from Michigan?
We're from California!
And you're like, best friends, right?
Because when you don't feel like you belong, you look for anything that gives you some sense of safety.
Somebody who understands a little bit about how you grow up, a little bit of your perspective, even though it's back at home, it's entirely different.
And the biggest joke is the level of trust. That family from Michigan will be like, oh, you've gotta try this restaurant.
And you'll turn to your wife and be like, honey, we've gotta go to this restaurant because strangers who don't live here told us it's really good.
But if a stranger from Paris said you gotta go to this restaurant, you'd be like, I don't even know who you are.
Why would I trust your recommendation?
You know? And it's this sense that the tourists are looking out for each other even though they have no clue.
And that's how powerful this thing is that when we get any inkling of somebody who, quote unquote, gets me, our speed to which we will trust them is, or at least try to connect with them, it's so huge.
So the fact that you're living in America, stranger in a strange land, the first Brit, you're just like humming.
It makes perfect sense.
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Do you believe there's a way to feel that way with more people if we're feeling disconnected or can it only happen when it's correlated in the way you - Great question.
So as we go right back to what we said before, which is the tangible stuff is just easier cause I can see it.
So it makes sense why neighborhoods look the way they do.
you know, it makes sense, right?
We want to live and hang out with people who worship like us, look like us, sound like us, live like us, whatever it is, right?
And that can be based on anything, but it's superficial, which means the connections aren't necessarily there.
And once you're in the neighborhood, it kind of disappears anyway, right?
You asked the question right at the beginning, you know, somebody who sort of applied my work, what would their life look like?
Well, this is what happens when you learn to start with why, because when you learn to stop thinking about your life in terms of what I do, what I look like, what I sound like, all of these superficial things.
And you start thinking of yourself in terms of who I am, why I'm on this planet, what are my values?
And more important, you learn the language of how to express those things.
You will more efficiently and more quickly find people who actually view the world and live the world like you.
And this is, you can do it in a personal context, you can do it in a business context.
And I'll give you a real life example.
So, when I first learned my why, I didn't know how to tell people about it.
And so, I stopped asking the question, what do you do?
What do you do? I would tell people what I believed, right?
What you do is really easy.
I'm a doctor. I'm a lawyer.
I'm a consultant or whatever, right?
You're sitting on a plane and somebody says, what do you do?
And you go, oh, I'm a doctor.
Unless they need a doctor, nobody cares, right?
And so, I started saying what I believed and it took probably 100, 150 tries of me bumbling and fumbling different ways of saying it so that people won't look at me like I had three heads.
And eventually, I had the perfect elevator pitch where I'd sit on a plane and this is pre -internet where you actually talk to people, and somebody would say, what do you do?
And I would say, I teach leaders and organizations how to inspire people.
The people who believe what I believe would say, inspire.
Cool. How do you do that?
We're talking about me for the next two and a half hours.
We're connecting, we're becoming friends, I mean, instantaneously, right?
We, like, really get along.
The people who don't believe what I believe would say, what kind of companies?
It was a filter instantaneously, because I was presenting my beliefs.
Yes. And those relationships, some of them, I made friends on planes.
Some of my friends today, believe it or not, I met them on random flights years ago.
And it's one of the reasons that we connect with some professions more than others, right?
So, I tend to have really good relationships with folks who serve in the military.
Because I'm pretty open about my sense of service, that I believe true purpose is the opportunity to serve those who serve others.
They kind of live their lives very similarly, so the minute we show up, we're like, got you.
And so, there's at least a common thing.
I don't necessarily like them all, they don't necessarily like me, but there's a good foundation to make a real friendship.
And so I think the opportunity to understand one's own values and beliefs and to say them often...
I mean, when I blurb a book, for example, I'm really sort of strict about it.
If somebody asked me to blurb their book, I always insist that the way they list me is it's Simon Sinek, optimist, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I list all the things I've done after I tell you who I am.
Because if you cut that list off after who I am, I don't care what goes after And the number of people like, author, New York Times best -selling host podcast, blah, blah, blah.
Which is fine, but that's not who you are, that's just stuff you do.
That doesn't make anybody connect with you, they just go, oh, I know the podcast, oh, I read the book, you know?
And our identity doesn't come from our credibility, our identity comes from our beliefs.
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I remember the first time I went on television and they were like, what do you want?
The official lower third, the Kyron, the thing to say.
And I was like, I wanted to say dedicated to helping billions of people find their purpose, something like that, something like that.
And I was like, that's what I went and they were like, no, but Jay, that is, and I'm like, but that is who I am.
and I relate, I so relate to what you're saying because I never set out to be a social media creator or to be an author or to be a podcaster.
To me, these are just vehicles.
They're just formats of distribution and mediums. They've got nothing to do with how I see myself.
Which is one of the reasons why I can speak for you, I think, but for me for sure, which is I'm super flexible as to how I get my message out.
You know, what got me here won't get me there, and I don't define myself as a speaker or a writer or whatever, everything I've done, I never thought I'd write a book, I never thought I'd have a podcast, I never thought I'd be a public speaker, and so for me to walk away from any of those things is super easy, because it's not who I am, it's just something I did.
And even if I'm good at it, it's okay, but there are other new ways.
And so the idea of reinvention, I think, is sort of a misnomer, right, because I'm not reinventing, I'm just taking a different route, I'm just sitting there with a map going, well, that road's going slower.
Why don't we try that road over here?
I'm not reinventing.
The reinvention comes in the car I'm driving or the destination, and my destination is fixed to build a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.
There's only one destination.
How I get there, wherever the best route is.
And so I think that you see it a lot.
When people get really good at something, they're very afraid to change it because they confuse the destination with the route, they confuse the goal with the journey even though everybody knows all the tropes.
It's not about the destination, it's about the journey.
We all know that. And I understand because the skill set or the thing that did is what got me to where I am and to change or move away from that is very scary and it's only scary if you don't have a grounding in why you do what you do because as soon as you know why, it's really easy because you start to see the hierarchy that the why is more powerful and more important than whatever route you chose or chose you because it could have just been a sign of the times.
Yeah, absolutely and you don't get disappointed.
I was just talking to someone this morning on a Q &A.
You don't get disappointed when the platform doesn't reciprocate.
So what I mean by that is if your why is what you just beautifully said is to, I'm paraphrasing completely, but to help people, using the skills you have, if you get rejected, you don't think it's no to what you're committed to, you just realize that's just not where it's going to be disseminated.
And you can continue to try and find a new place for it to be distributed.
Whereas when you think oh, this is a rejection of my idea, you actually let go of the idea that you so deeply care about.
So if I decide that the best way for me to advance my message is for me to join the NBA, become a professional basketball player, I will learn very quickly that that's not going to go well.
And so do I go home depressed?
Or do I say, well, maybe basketball is not the best way.
And it's an interesting rabbit hole to go down, because it raises the question, and I can't remember if you and I have talked about this before, but knowing when to quit.
I think we did on yours.
Because there are some people who say, no, you never quit.
That's what grit is.
And there are some people say, no, there's a time to walk away.
And the question is, OK, but when?
When do you apply grit, and when do you walk away?
And my rule has always been, if the sacrifice is worth it, you keep going.
So I'm exhausted. I'm tired.
But is it worth it for what I'm trying to do?
Is this sacrifice, is this cost that I'm paying worth what the outcome is going to be?
And if the answer's yes, you stick with it.
If it's not worth it, if the sacrifice no longer feels, and that's the only standard, does it feel.
There's nothing to do on a piece of paper.
There's no pros and cons, right?
If the sacrifice feels worth it, you keep going.
The sacrifice no longer feels worth it, you walk away.
That's healthy. I wanna link with that back, that idea that we're discussing here, back to friendship, going to your point around not having friendship therapists, which I love.
The idea that we don't go to therapy for our friends.
how do you know when it's okay to outgrow someone or keep growing with them in the same way as we were literally just talking about?
Right, so friends like any relationship needs to be additive, right?
That doesn't mean every single time.
But on balance, we should all feel that who we're hanging out with, who we're spending time, a non -redeemable commodity.
You can spend money, you can lose money, you can make more money, but if you spend time That's it.
That's gone. And so, we want to make sure that the people with whom we spend time, it's additive to our lives.
You get to define what additive means.
Additive can means you fill me up, you inspire me.
Additive can mean I just have a freaking rocking good time with you.
Additive can mean you give good advice.
You define it everyone.
But I think on balance, our friends should be additive.
They should contribute something to our lives, to our into our wellbeing.
And it absolutely happens for not necessarily bad reasons, where for whatever reason you just outgrow each other.
Sometimes it's just the natural ups and downs and weirdnesses of life.
It's easy to be friends when you're local, your career takes you across the country, around the world.
It's just harder. And those friendships sometimes fall away, nothing personal.
Sometimes we outgrow people.
That absolutely happens.
I had a friend who we would hang out a lot, we were friends, we would get together, we would talk about how much we hated our bosses and what we hated about work, and I would try and make changes in my life, get new jobs, take myself on, become a better leader, and we would keep getting together and his problems were always the same.
And a couple of years go by, and I'm realizing I'm having the same conversation with somebody who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to take themselves on and doesn't want to listen and I had advice for everybody but couldn't take it.
And you realize I can't be in a friendship if I can't serve my friend.
Yes, I want to get from my friends, of course, but I also want to give to my friends, right?
There's tremendous joy in being able to hold a friend up, you know, and for a friend to deny me the opportunity to serve because they're to fill in the blank to listen, take advice, you know, admit any kind of weakness.
At some point we just drifted apart, you know?
I just stop calling and that's okay.
And you don't feel there needed to be a definitive ending conversation to.
In that particular case, no. When do you need one of those?
When there's a definitive ending, I think, just let's make the comparison to a divorce, right?
There has to be work before the definitive ending.
So if you feel like the relationship is worth protecting and saving and working on, in that particular case, it seems like neither of us felt like doing the work.
We had a good time.
And I don't think of it as an ending.
I think of a graduation, right?
The relationship was great and then we graduated and we both moved on, right?
And that's fine and graduated, right?
I learned what I could learn and now it's time to go.
But if the relationship, if it's worth fighting for and you're doing the work and maybe it's just not working, then I think then you have a hard conversation and you sit down just like a divorce or leaving a job, like we're trying this and I'm struggling and I don't know if it's worth anymore.
Can we end this? That's a good distinction.
I think ghosting is horrible.
I'm not talking about you went out on one date with somebody and that's fine.
But I'm saying you hear about whether it's romantic relationships or friendships where you've been hanging out a lot for six months, seven months, a year, and then for whatever reason you decide you don't want to and you just stop, you ignore the texts, you unfollow on socials, which is an act of unbelievable passive aggression.
And some people, you have to remember what you're doing to somebody when you do that, which is, especially if they can't look on the socials and see that you're fine, there's this horrible sense that something's happened to you.
Like if you got into a car accident or something, the result would be the same.
And so the panic of, are you okay?
It comes first. Then they may go on social and discover, you're fine.
they see you out at the club or whatever it is, and then you reach out and they don't reach back, now, so you've gone through the panic of what's happened, then you realize they're fine, you realize you're being ghosted, then the overwhelming sense of what did I do, the guilt, you get no closure, you give no closure, you allow someone to stew in their own fears and insecurity and anxieties, which is debilitating and cruel because you lack the courage to say, I don't know how to say this.
I'm struggling in this friendship.
I don't know what to do.
You know, again, that's different from friends that just naturally drift apart.
And so I think you're right, I think one of the things we have to learn to do is how to have difficult conversations with our friends, even if it means like, I think, at least give somebody a breakup.
You know, a breakup is at least, there's still pain.
There's still anxiety.
There's still, you know, mourning, but at least give somebody the closure to do it with dignity.
Well, I think your point's well taken because I love the distinction you made because if you were working on it, if you were both trying to bring some enthusiasm and energy and trying to figure it out, you're more likely to actually have a proper breakup and have that conversation.
Well, you both come to the realization, I don't think this is working.
Totally, totally. And I like that a lot because it's almost like sometimes we have the same expectations for a relationship that we didn't put energy into for ones where we did.
And you can't really compare the two because, yes.
And I'll add one final caveat, is it's messy.
And that the reason it's messy is because human beings are messy.
We're full of anxieties and ego and pride and fear.
And most of us don't have the skills of confrontation and listening.
We suck at it. And even if you have the skills, are you good at applying them?
And even if you have the skills when you had a bad night's sleep or you're stressed or you're feeling attacked.
Are you able to call upon those skills?
You and I do this a lot.
And we fail daily. All the time.
You know? And it's thrown in our face.
I thought you knew how to.
Like, I do, but I'm struggling right now, clearly, because I'm hurt, because my feelings are hurt and I'm lashing out and being defensive and interrupting because I'm hurt.
And that's not right, but it's messy.
And so, one of the things that you can easily accuse both of us of is sort of oversimplifying all of this stuff.
And we do oversimplify it to make the case and hopefully share some lessons that we've stumbled upon over the course of our careers.
But it's still hard and it's still messy.
And it's still imperfect.
And that's kind of beautiful.
I think that makes people beautiful.
I just had this conversation with somebody today.
Compare that to AI, right?
Let's say you have a fight with your wife, you want to get it right.
Hey, ChatGPT, can you tell me what I have to say to get this right?" And ChatGPT, which has been trained with all the best therapy, everything, this thing's a PhD, will give you the exact right thing to say.
And you go and say to your wife, you memorize it and you say to your wife exactly what ChatGPT told you to do.
And she goes, thank you.
Oh my God, thank you.
And then she finds the script in your drawer.
And she said, did you get this from Chat GBT yet?
Did you memorize it yet?
She's gonna be angry.
Because there's nothing heartfelt about it.
It's hollow. It's not.
And she would rather you bumble and fumble and do it wrong but at least be yourself and be authentic.
Can you imagine giving a 100 % Chat GBT written speech at a wedding?
Best speech ever. And then somebody says, oh my god, that speech was amazing.
How did you write it?
I'm like, no, no, Chat GBT wrote it for me, you know?
And there's just the feeling of like, Oh, right.
I'd rather you give me a worst speech, but I know it came from the heart.
And again, you know, there are silly examples, but the point is, is that imperfect, human, and those two words are synonymous.
Those two words mean exactly the same thing.
To be human is to be imperfect, to be imperfect is to be human.
It is the most beautiful thing in the world.
Perfection comes off a factory line.
It's the difference between a Pottery Barn mug and a beautiful piece of Japanese ceramic.
One is handmade, it is imperfect, it is gorgeous, versus the thing that comes off a machine.
It looks the same as all the other things that come off a machine.
It is perfect. It's fine.
I like it. Love it." And I think we forget that in this day and age of incredible technology that can solve all the problems for us and answer all the questions for us.
It's all there. Therapists should be afraid because Chachibiti can do it, but to be able to sit like this, convene, feel someone staring at you with love, to feel to cry with someone and have them cry with you, you and I have both welled up just because the other person is welling up with us?
That's a good one, yeah.
And to feel a person connect with you in your pain to hug someone and not want to let go?
You know the rule at Disney?
The Disney rule for hugging?
No. I learned this recently.
Tell me. It's the best thing in the world.
At Disney, all of the characters are trained that when a little kid hugs you, you may not let go until the kid lets go first. Oh, that's so good.
Isn't that the best?
You hug the kid. It makes me cry.
You hug the kid as long as the kid wants to hug you.
And now do that with a friend.
Hug your friend until they let go.
Apply the Disney rule.
I met somebody recently.
She's a wonderful human being, she's got a wonderful boyfriend, they're a great couple.
And they were saying, when we hug, we hug for, and I don't remember what the number was, 37 seconds.
16 seconds, whatever the number is.
And I'm like, oh, okay, why that number?
They go, because that's the amount of time it takes for oxytocin to release.
And so when we hug, we hug for this period of time to give each other the oxytocin rush because we love each other.
I'm like, okay, weird, but okay.
I'll go with it. The science is correct.
Somebody studied it.
I saw her in the hallway and I was like, hey, how are you?
And she's like, great.
And she comes in for the hug and we're hugging.
and I sort of stop and I kind of like pull back a little and I'm like, I have to ask you, are you counting?
She said, yes. I said, I appreciate it.
But let me show you something, okay?
I want to just show you something.
Stop counting, please, don't count.
You're human, I'm human.
Our bodies already know how to do this.
stop counting, just feel.
And then you let me know when the oxytocin starts flowing.
So let's do this hug again, okay.
So let's hug. And we start hugging.
And in a few seconds, I don't know how many, maybe it was slightly more, maybe it was slightly less.
I have no idea. At some point we felt unbelievably connected.
I mean, we could both feel it.
And I said to her, do you feel that?
She goes, yeah. I'm like, I'm feeling it too.
I think the oxytocin is flowing and I'm like, wasn't that nicer?
We just allowed for it to happen when it happens as opposed to applying the science.
The science, somebody studied it and said it.
That doesn't mean you should count it.
It just means it takes a few, it takes a little bit.
Yeah. That's all it means.
Yeah. Just a hug for longer.
Just hug for a little, just, just hug for a little.
Don't worry. Right.
Yeah. And it's, this is our metrics obsessed so metrics obsessed world.
Like everybody's obsessed.
How much deep sleep they got and how much REM they got and how many hours.
Like, but this also all of the, I find it ironic, right?
All of these data -obsessed people.
Data obsessed about, ugh.
And before anybody gives me shit, because I'm wearing an aura ring, I haven't charged it in two years.
It's just a good belonging.
I was given to me. I wear it somewhat sentimentally.
And I did replace it with a ring that looks just like it, but that ring broke.
And I'm like, well.
It looks the same, so I'm going to go back to the one with the sentimental value.
No, I love that. Oh, go on.
No, no. Just, but I think it's ironic, with people who are so data obsessed that they want to know, Did I drink a glass of wine?
You know, did it affect my rem?
That the data also shows that people who obsess about the data actually suffer more stress than the people who don't, and yet that's the funniest data point of all.
I, the reason why I love it so much is because you're also giving people a heightened agency and accountability of feeling the change.
Just feel. Because that's what it is, right?
It's like if I tell you something's a great hike or let's take something really everyone can relate to.
If I tell you something's a great restaurant and it's got two Michelin stars, it's got a 10 star rating, it's got everything.
You could go there and hate the meal.
None of that means anything in that sense, it's your taste because you had to feel it and that was what made the difference.
It wasn't the Michelin stars or the rating or the whatever it was, it was you feeling it.
And we've lost that ability in a world where we're counting on everyone else and everything else to tell us if we've done it for long enough, short enough, have we lifted for that long enough?
You've lost the ability to actually feel, like I was talking to my doctor today, I was saying, hey I'm not sure about this whole 150 grams of protein intake.
Like I'm just not feeling good!
Like I just don't feel good.
That's a lot. That's, I mean, that's not even as much, you're meant to do like your body weight in protein.
And I've tried everything, but it's like, I don't feel good when I do it.
So either, yes, my digestion may not be strong enough.
It may need to be strengthened, but at this point in my current strength, it doesn't feel right.
I mean, you're right.
It's ironic, right?
Where we trust the watch, we trust the app, we trust the numbers more than we trust ourselves.
We trust what we're being told and we're doubting our own feelings.
And so the question is A, why are we doing that, and B, shouldn't we learn how to trust our feelings more, right?
Now, yes, it feels good when we eat the chocolate cake, but we all know that it feels pretty gross if you do it too often, right?
And so there's also data on this, which is people who stress about eating dessert, the cortisol released from the stress of eating the dessert is more harmful to your body than the dessert.
And so like, I think you're right, which is where, why we were disconnecting from our bodies to the point where we don't even trust our bodies to know what's right for our bodies.
I mean, functional medicine, this is a large part of functional medicine, which is your body already knows, your body knows how to heal itself.
So all you have to do is protect the body, you know, like, and I love these things.
Like, what do you do?
I'm doing a cleanse.
So you're, you're drinking lemon juice and cayenne pepper for a week, you know, and you're doing a cleanse, what are you doing?
Well, I'm cleaning my body of toxins.
I'm like that's what your liver and kidney do.
If they're working, yeah.
As long as your liver and kidneys are healthy, like you're good.
You know? And so your body already knows how to get bad things out of it.
Your body already knows how to fight disease.
Your body already knows how to do these things.
The only thing you have to do is look after your body and trust your gut, right?
Literally and figuratively.
Yeah. Especially with hugging.
Especially with hugging.
Even something that, I loved that example so much because it's like, I love the idea that a kid knows when to let go.
Like that idea of like, only let go when the child lets go.
Isn't that beautiful?
It's so beautiful. The kid knows.
It's literally romantic, spectacular, and just - The kid knows.
It's so beautiful because that's actually what we want.
We want someone to hold us for as long as we need to be held.
And I'll take it a step further, right?
Yeah. So in terms of the kid knows, right?
So good parenting advice is like, when it's cold outside, and the parents like, put on your sweater, I don't want to.
Put on your sweater, I don't want to.
Put on your sweater, I don't want to.
Let the kid go outside in the cold.
And very quickly, the kid will either be fine or not fine.
The kid knows. They can be like, I am cold!
Put on a sweater, right?
Or they won't! There are little things that we know and that goes right back to friendship.
We've all been in relationships that suck energy from us.
And we feel like we have to like keep going because, I don't know, we've been friends for a bunch of years.
So time is the only bond.
You don't actually fill each other up anymore.
So, you know, people grow up, you are a different person than you were five years ago.
I'm a different person than I was five years ago.
Hopefully better. I definitely know there's some skills that I've got.
I'm definitely a better friend.
I'm a better leader.
I'm a better boyfriend.
Like I worked on those things, you know, and I'm better at it It's you know, what it's like it's like, you know for a lot of us what we left home when we were 18 And we kept growing up We went to school or we got a job and we kept learning and growing and taking ourselves on but our parents Knew us up until we were 18.
Yeah, and then they missed the new growth Yeah, and then you come home and your parents are treating you like you're 18 Yeah, and you're like, I'm not we say stupid things like I'm not a kid anymore But they only know you as the 18 year old.
They've missed all the growth.
Yeah And that sometimes happens where we're growing at different paces, or we grow and somebody else chooses not to, and that's fine, but we know people differently.
You know, it's like, maybe there was a bully you had in high school who bullied you.
They're not a bully anymore.
I mean, they might be.
But that's my memory.
But that's your memory, so you come up with, you see them in a bar and you come in with like, animosity, you know, versus like, how are you?
And they're like, I am sorry, you know?
And I think that's, I just find all this friend, I'll tell you one really funny one.
Hopefully you have friends that you can call on in really dark times.
That something's gone wrong.
Whatever it is, problems in your marriage, problems in your career, whatever it is.
Something went badly.
You call a friend and be like, dude, can I just talk to you?
Like life is not good right now.
I just need to talk to somebody.
Like you know who those people are.
You know exactly the phone numbers you're gonna call.
What I've learned is the people, when everything goes right and you wanna just brag, like dude, I just won an award. I just made a bunch of cash.
I just, I'm a frickin' hero.
I'm the smartest person in the room.
That number of people that you can call is even smaller.
So true. And I just love the fact that there's more vulnerability in wanting to toot your own horn and ask a friend to hold space with no judgment, no jealousy, and no envy, and that number of friends that I can call and be like, I'm a freaking rock star and I just needed to tell somebody about how great I am and how proud I am.
And that friend will gush and glow and cheer, and I remember a friend of mine called me and something amazing happened in his life, and he didn't know who he could call because he didn't want to sound like he was bragging, but he needed to get it out, and I just sat on the phone, I was like a proud parent, I was glowing.
And you realize that chemical is serotonin, that when you see somebody walk across the stage at graduation and accept their diploma, their bodies are being consumed by serotonin with the feeling of pride, that's what serotonin gives you, the feeling of pride, as they're graduating, that amazing feeling.
But what we don't talk about is the parents and the friends and the family sitting in the audience also have serotonin pouring through their bodies, and they feel the same pride for the person on the stage.
So when you have a friend that you can brag to and they share in your pride, both of you are coursing, your veins are coursing with serotonin and it is a pro -social experience, in other words, it is making you even closer.
Your ability to share the vulnerability of success, giving somebody else the opportunity to share in your pride, you're actually not bragging to them.
That's not what's happening.
You're both firing on serotonin.
I felt the same pride joy and excitement that my friend was feeling and when I hung up the phone I was in such a great mood because my friend had amazing success.
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I love that, that's beautiful.
I mean, and that resonates.
And that's earned. That's earned, yeah.
Because you have to do so much in a friendship of all the good stuff and the bad stuff and the I don't wanna be here, but I'm gonna sit here and the bad news and the time and the effort.
You have to do so much work to nurture a friendship, to earn the mutual joy from either one's success.
The fact that I can share in your success and you can share in my success and I am feeling more confident in a great mood because you had success, just like a parent earns the feeling of pride from their child walking across the stage because all the sacrifices of raising my kid, Now, everybody who knows my kid is not pouring with serotonin.
It's the ones who earned it from the years of investing in the friendship, in the relationship.
And that's what you miss in all these shortcuts.
That's what we miss in all of this AI stuff.
You don't get to earn those feelings.
And those feelings are the best feelings in the world.
And all those feelings do is make you healthier.
The more oxytocin and serotonin you have in your body, you're less likely to die from heart disease.
you're less likely to get many cancers, you're less likely to get diabetes.
In other words, friendship and the hard work of friendship and earning that oxytocin and earning that serotonin keeps you healthy.
And then we go back to the chocolate cake and the exercises, doctors, and you start to realize the healthiest thing I can do is not the diet, the healthiest place I need to apply my willpower is not on how long I'm working out.
but it's how much time, effort, and energy, and presence I give to my friends.
But first, here's a quick word from the brands that support the show.
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Now let's dive back in.
Where this is hitting for me is that the challenge I think people are having today is they're struggling to clap for their friends when it's not their turn.
So people are struggling to feel joy for someone else's joy when they're not in a joyful state.
I've had real life scenarios in my life right now, which I'll share that immediately came to my mind when you were saying this, which I loved that were on this conversation, is two examples.
One person, and these are people who are really close.
This is not like some fake friendship.
Really close. One of them's going through a miscarriage.
the other one is expecting a baby.
And the person who had the miscarriage is feeling bad because they had a miscarriage.
They're feeling bad because they can't celebrate their friend's win, and they're now feeling bad that they don't even wanna be around their friend because their friend's actually expecting, and now that friend's feeling guilt because they're having a baby, and they're like, well, how do we share this with that person who's just lost a baby?
And it's real, yeah, it's really real, and this applies to people getting married before you.
The kids one is probably the most, one of the most extreme forms of it.
But if people get married, people getting engaged before you.
Oh, your career doing great, somebody else's career hitting the skids.
Totally, there's so many versions of it.
All of it. But the most extreme one being, or that I've heard so far is this, that.
Yeah, that's a good one.
I've just lost a child, and you're having a child, and we're best friends, and we were gonna be having children at the same time, and we were gonna share that together, and we were gonna raise our kids together, and now I don't even, you know?
so what do we do when we can't share our win with our deepest friend because they're losing and they're scared to share space with us because they're threatened by your win in that context?
Communication, right?
And this is the thing, we avoid the communication because it's uncomfortable.
I don't know what to say, I don't know what to say.
You know, one person's the happiest they've ever been, the other person's the saddest they've ever been and neither knows what to say And both are consumed with guilt, both are consumed, maybe there's a little bit of anger.
I mean, there's all kinds of feelings and feelings are messy and they flow and you know, and the other one's success or achievement or in this case pregnancy just reminds me of what I'm going through.
It makes it just makes it feel worse.
I don't wanna be reminded right now.
And it's kinda like when something bad happens in someone's life, you know, sometimes we don't do anything because we don't know what to say We don't want to say the wrong thing.
And so sometimes that's the best thing to say.
Hey, I don't know what to say.
I don't want to say the wrong thing.
But I want you to know I love you.
I can't imagine what you're going through.
And it must be the worst thing in the world.
I'm here when you need me, take the space you need.
It's better to say - Just say something.
Say something. Say something incomplete.
And when you say, don't have to worry about getting it right.
Just say the thing you're feeling.
I mean, the feeling is, I don't know what to say.
I had a friend recently who lost somebody close to them and I got the text that says it happened and I don't know what to say and I write back, dude, that sucks.
I'm sorry. That really sucks.
That's all I had. I don't know what to say and there's no rules.
There's no right thing to say and we don't know what state somebody else is in.
And even the friend who had the miscarriage saying, I love you.
Please understand. I'm just struggling.
I love you. I just need a little bit of space.
I will promise I will reach out soon.
I love you. And it just opens up a space to say, I love you too.
I understand. It's just a human moment.
And I think what we have to do is like we try and come up with the right answers.
What's the right thing to say when there's no right thing to say.
and some people will handle it differently than others, and some people will go into deep sadness, and some people go into anger, and some people will be avoidant, and some people will bury themselves, and pretend.
There's no right. And so what I've learned is instead of trying to guess is, A, just say what I'm feeling, which is I don't know what to say.
Let me express my confusion.
Let me put out something and be there like, when you're ready, please, I'm here, which is saying I love you and sometimes to ask.
So I have a friend who called me and said, I'm struggling.
I said, so do I go into a solution mode?
Because I know what to do.
I know exactly what's going on.
Or do I go into, no, I got to hold space.
This is what friends do.
They hold space for friends in need.
And so I just said, what do you need?
Do you need me to hold space or do you need me to offer you some ideas.
And then they said, I think right now I just need you to hold space.
I'm like, okay. I will climb into the mud with you and I'll sit there for you with you.
And when you're ready, you tell me I think I'm ready to get out now.
I'll be like, okay.
I got some ideas. And A, you can ask.
You can ask for guidance if you don't know, as opposed to trying to guess.
And B, if somebody gets it wrong, you can tell them.
The reverse happened to me.
I was in a bad, bad place.
And I called somebody where I just needed them to listen, and I called her up and I And it was like, I'm having a really hard week and can I just, and then this happened and then this happened and I'm feeling this and this happened.
And she went into fix -it mode and it made me feel worse because I just need to feel heard in that moment.
And it was well -intentioned, but I was getting angry, I could feel myself getting angry.
I felt myself getting frustrated.
And I simply said, can I just interrupt you?
I know it's well -intentioned, what I need right now, I just need you to just listen.
I'm not angry. thank you so much, what I need right now is please just listen.
That's all I need." And she was like, oh, I'm so sorry.
And you can reset, I'm so sorry.
You're, please go ahead.
Thank you. Very few of us are experts and even the experts bungle it all the time.
And I think there's trying to say how you actually feel, telling people what you need in the moment you need it and asking for what you need in the moment you need it, right?
That combination, you pretty much can bumble through it all.
It won't always be fun, but it's a good start and you don't need any PhD skills.
The most important thing about that is saying something is better than saying nothing.
And the saying something part, speak your intention.
Like that's what I feel, like it's like when I'm sharing my confusion and I'm sharing my feelings and I'm scared to share them because they're messy, going back to your earlier point, being human is messy and you're right.
Sometimes I get a message like that, too.
And I'm like, I don't really know what to say.
And not saying anything is way worse than saying, hey, I'm really sorry.
I'm here if you need me, let me know.
I don't know what to say and I don't know what you need.
Exactly. And tell me.
If you feel up to it, please tell me.
Exactly. Right? But I'm here, just know one thing.
One thing 100 % sure is I'm here.
Exactly. You know? And that's sometimes all people need is to feel not alone.
Mostly. Mostly, yeah.
And I think we're also afraid of triggering somebody or saying the wrong thing, or doing the wrong thing.
And it's our own fears, that's our own insecurities, and it goes back to the ghosting.
It's my fear of discomfort that's making it worse for somebody else.
And it goes back to what the definition of a leader is.
A leader is the person who accepts the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise.
It's about caring for people.
And it's a very leader -y thing to do, to just be the person who says, I don't know, but here it is.
I remember this a while ago, there was someone that I knew that told me one of their friends came up to them and said, they said exactly how they feel, but it was different.
It said, I'm envious of you.
I kind of respect that.
Yeah, but it was hard for that person to hear it, because they felt it created a distance, even though to me, that person was being courageous.
There's a way to do it though.
I wouldn't recommend going up to somebody and be like, dude, I'm really envious of you, because you don't know the context, you don't know where it's coming from, I think context is important, a good setup is important.
You know, like I don't know what to say.
You know, I'm afraid of saying this wrong, right?
And I think to say, I need to share something with you that's really uncomfortable for me to share.
And I know it's revealing of my own issues, it has nothing to do with you.
And I know it's something I'm dealing with, but I'm really envious of you.
And that at least signals like it's not you, it's me.
I'm dealing with my own insecurities and my own feelings of inadequacy and my own feelings.
And by the way, that same friend, his career just when I was still struggling and trying to make a go of it and I had no money and he was starting his career starts to take off and we would go out for dinner and he'd order expensive bottles of wine and I'm sitting there just stressed out because I know we're going to split the check and I am like everything He's ordering and I'm just like sitting there going and it's just making me feel worse.
His success is actually making me feel bad.
And affecting your bank balance too.
It's due to pay as well.
And feeling inadequate and feeling lesser than.
But this is why he's a great friend.
He goes, hey listen, let's make a deal.
I'll pay for the wine and let's just split the meal.
I'm like, I'm good, thank you.
I didn't have to say a word. Mm -hmm.
He knows where he is and he knows where I am and - But that requires humility and your power and consciousness and his power.
It still sucked, and I still hated it and I still had jealousy and I still had anger.
I still had all the feelings as his career is flying.
All his success is just reminding me what I haven't achieved or what I'm not achieving or, you know, am I ever going to achieve anything, you know?
I wish I had, and he's buying big houses and things like, you know.
And not that I desire big houses, but I'm watching it happen.
And I knew it was my issue.
And I knew there's a danger of me lashing out or making accusations, or you're always throwing your money around in front of me.
I knew all of that existed.
Thank goodness I had the self -awareness to be like, this is me, this is my issue.
These are my insecurities, these are my fears.
This is my ego. And I can't remember what I did.
I sat in the discomfort for a long time.
And I think at some point I just talked to him And you know, he's one of my best friends in the world.
And now I can look at it and be like, dude, I'm so proud of you.
Like you fricking nailed it.
And I've known him since we were 18 years old.
So it's like, we've known each other since we were both idiots.
We've known each other since we were 18.
We lived across the hall from each other freshman year of college.
And we've always been friends.
We've never not been friends.
So you can't be friends with people, you envy yourself, and people that are envious with you?
I've never actually talked to him about it.
Now, it's really funny.
I was actually just talking to him on the way up, driving up to here, which is really funny.
I've never talked to him about it, I should.
I don't know what his experience in that moment was being on the other side of it.
It'd be fascinating to know.
But I treated it like a fight.
I treated it like, we have to get through this.
Even though he was pretty much uninvolved in the whole thing was going on in my own head.
He was just going through life.
He probably was complete, in fact, knowing what I know about him, he was completely, I guarantee you, mostly unaware, right?
I remember, I just, I love him.
I care about him. Nothing happened.
It didn't do anything to me.
Just doing well. I treated it like this is a tension and I have to get through this.
Because it goes right back to before, the stress is worth it.
This friendship is worth going through.
This stress is worth getting through for this friendship.
You can't say that about all friendships but in this case, it was.
It was worth it. It was worth it to sit in mud by myself and maybe tell somebody else what I was going through and have them go, oh, that sucks.
You know? So I don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure that's how I dealt with it.
I probably told somebody else.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely.
I had a friend say to me the other day, they said, Jay, the thing I love about you is that you've stayed the same despite your success.
You're taller. A friend, yeah.
I'll friend and it was just like, and I said, you know, the reason why I've been able to be the same with you is because you've stayed the same with me.
And it was this really interesting, not that we haven't changed or grown, of course, I've learned new skills, but that they didn't think I was changing negatively and that allowed me to continue to be who I wanted to be with them.
You only get half the credit on that, right?
The other half of the credit is that I guarantee you that other people in your life, other friends will give me a different answer.
That they will say, now that Jay's all successful and you know - No, but that's the point of my - Like he's aloof now.
No, but that's the point.
Yeah, yeah. So my point is, that's exactly what I'm saying that maybe I didn't explain it well.
He's saying that and I'm giving him the credit back.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I'm saying you didn't change what you viewed of in me.
Right. So I never - It's, he's done the work.
Correct. Yeah. Because he's allowed me to continue to be me without judging me, comparing the - And you're right.
You're right. It is only half the credit for sure.
And you may have changed.
Totally. And you may be more aloof.
And you may be more cynical.
And you may be more guarded.
All of that is true.
100%. And some people who may experience you as different.
All those things can be true.
But I love the fact, yeah, I think he gets the credit for having the strength of ego to recognize that, too.
Yeah, that's my point.
He gets the credit.
Maybe he came across wrong.
He gets all the credit.
That's really cool.
Yeah, it was just a really interesting, it never clicked to me because I was receiving it and I was like, yeah, but it can't just, you know, maybe I have exactly what you're saying, like I was like, maybe I have changed.
Not everyone would agree with that.
But it was the idea that it was him that was that way.
We kind of went to the end of a relationship like breakups.
But I was thinking about another thing that I feel a lot of people are struggling with friendships that I at least hear right now are people who are wanting to, kind of like where you are actually, where you're wanting to grow.
You're wanting to pivot into a new business, you're wanting to start something.
And what I've noticed is we're not scared of what people think on the internet.
We're scared of what people around us think when you're starting something.
Like when you're trying to begin something, you're not really scared about what some anonymous person says on the internet.
That's not even on your mind.
You're scared about what your friend from college is going to say about that video you made.
Or you're scared of what your friend from high school is gonna say about the business you're about to start.
You're scared of the LinkedIn update that goes out to your former colleagues.
We're like, that's the thing you're worried about.
What do we do when we feel that people around us don't believe in us, are the most cynical, the most skeptical, are the most negative about our ideas?
That's interesting.
Even a person. For anybody who wants to accomplish anything of value in the world, and when I think of value, I think of impact, right?
That's how I define it, right?
So, if you want to operate at a scale that's bigger than yourself – and if you want to – and when I say bigger than yourself, it could be three people, right?
Meaning, I want to have an impact in three people's lives around me, I want to be the best parent in the world, right?
My point is, more than you, right?
So, I think we confuse, when we think bigger than ourselves, we don't necessarily mean national stage.
Bigger than yourself just means more than one, right?
Anybody who wants to have an impact in the lives of others has to get used to the idea that not everybody's going to like you, right?
You just have to get used to that idea.
And for me, I have rules, which is if you don't like me because you disagree with me, I'm cool with that, right?
If you don't like me because somehow I make you uncomfortable, I'm okay with that too.
But if somebody I respect doesn't like me, now I've got a problem, right?
Because I'm not so blind and pigheaded to be like, screw the world, it's me.
You know, if you don't like it, you can eat it, right?
My eyes are open. And if there's a friend I care about, who's mm -mm Simon, okay, I got to take that seriously.
Because now I'm getting too big for my britches, or now I'm not listening, or now I'm ignoring my blind spots.
And now I got a problem, right?
But if somebody just disagrees with me, I mean what am I supposed to do?
I mean, I don't get everything right.
Sometimes things come out wrong.
Give me some grace, you know, but if you just disagree with me, like what am I, like I don't know what, I actually don't know what to do.
It's like the gold dress, blue dress, remember that?
It's like the dress is blue.
You're an idiot, it's gold.
I'm like, what am I supposed to do?
I see it as blue. I don't know what to do.
That's what it is. the funniest idea.
It's hard. Everybody wants people to like, you know?
I have a lot of respect for people who, like, literally don't care.
I don't have that. Well, it goes back to what you were saying earlier that we're looking for people to affirm, confirm, and join.
So it's like when you have that idea and everyone around you who you thought supported the same football club and had the same values doesn't agree with you, it kind of feels like there's something wrong.
You're kind of raising something that's It's quite insidious.
We can't help but think about likes and views on a post that we get our sense of self from how many likes we get and this video got more likes, I'm awesome, this video got no likes, oh my God, I'm worthless.
Yeah, like how many views it gets.
And that's sort of the macro social media version of what you're talking about which is, if people like me I must be a good person and people don't like me or aren't giving me a lot of views.
I must not be a good person.
And how to disconnect a like or a view or a comment from what I'm trying to do here and what I'm putting out in the world.
And the problem is it's the incentive structure, right?
Because if you're making money from views, if your sense of value in the world comes from those numbers, that's the insidious version of what you're saying.
And how do you get comfortable?
Some will do well. I can tell you I've won the internet lottery more than once.
Yeah, you have, yeah.
I have won the internet lottery more than once and I have had multiple things that I put out there go very viral.
None of them did I predict.
The videos that I thought would do well, fine.
And the videos that I had no clue went ballistic.
And it wasn't because of the production quality and it wasn't, I didn't just didn't know something connected.
you know that's why I call it viral.
I was at a dinner once and a guy like, what do you do?
He's like, I made viral videos.
I'm like, no, you don't.
You make videos and you hope they go viral.
And that's why this stuff is hard. Now you can do tricks and games.
You and I both know people who use all the tricks and games to drive the views.
And there are tricks and games on Amazon.
There are tricks and games on YouTube.
There are tricks and games on Instagram, Tik Tok.
They all have tricks and games.
But when something actually goes for legitimate reasons, it's because you connect with somebody You didn't even really realize why or how.
And to make those the standards is ridiculous.
It's stupid. Like people said to me, Simon, you know, after I wrote Start with Why, how you gonna write a second book as popular as the first?
The answer was easy, I'm not.
I'm not. Didn't predict that.
Didn't orchestrate, that's like asking me how you gonna repeat that lottery win.
Well, I've studied the numbers I picked the first time and I've got a formula on how I'm gonna pick, no, I won the freaking lottery.
What do you want from me?
Like, I don't know.
I'm just going to do the best job I can the second time, and it won't do as well, and that's OK.
You know, and I think to disconnect our value from the metric is really the lesson here.
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It wasn't about money or titles, it was about meaning.
I've felt that too, going from student to monk to entrepreneur taught me that growth only happens when we pause and ask ourselves what we really want.
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That's what's so great about an Indeed profile.
Even if you're not sure what's next, it helps you clarify what you bring to the table and point yourself in the right direction.
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So update your Indeed profile and get matched with better opportunities today.
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Yeah, and on that small scale.
I'm not less valuable because my second book didn't sell as well as my first, you know?
Yeah, me too. But yeah, that point that you're making, to me that microversion is that I don't feel value.
Like for example, when I put out my first video, the people closest to me or maybe second closest to me were like, you talk too fast, the editing's bad, the music's off, and the funny thing is they were right.
All of that was true, but it resonated with someone, right?
It was like a weird, it was like this weird thing where, and I've seen that with people, when they're trying something new, it's like the people around them will be the most cynical, the most skeptical, and if you use that as feedback, it could get better, or if you use it as like, hey, you're not really an expert in that, you don't know much, I'm just gonna get on with it, right, That's what I'm trying to get at is like, how does, how does someone deal with the discomfort of just, your best friend thinks your business idea sucks?
Or like your best friend thinks the person you're dating is not right for you?
You're conflating a lot of stuff there.
I like the best friend doesn't like the person you're dating.
That's a hard one. Very often, they don't tell you until you're off, you've broken up.
Why do our friends feel like they have to wait till we break up?
Because it's really uncomfortable to say, I don't like your partner.
Could we do something better about that to create honesty?
Can I have a really Could we do something better to help our friends have uncomfortable conversations?
You know at the end of the day sometimes not all our partnerships are understood by our friends, too I've definitely been in partnerships that people are just like really I'm like no no no You don't understand the value that this person gives to me and this person is the exact right person I need to date for the place I'm in right now.
You know I mean I had a girlfriend many years ago who Nobody could like they looked at us walking in the street and people just like like I made my friends like like what?
Like they couldn't understand this relationship and what they didn't understand is who I was and what I needed in that time, she was magical and we're still friends but nobody, nobody got it and she was socially awkward. And like, so like if you've got friends with big personalities and you know we go out and she's just quiet the whole night like my friends didn't get in.
That's the other thing I've learned which is to do people not like the girl I'm dating or do they just want somebody who's the life of the party?
you know, that's a great point, yeah.
And if they're looking for someone who's alive at the party, that's not who I'm dating.
She's the rock. She's not the fireworks.
She's stable, and that's what I need.
No, I like that. I like that because I think you're right, I mean introverts in general in friendships, in group settings.
Like my family, my parents have never liked quote unquote any introvert I've ever dated.
They love the extroverts.
Cause the extroverts are fun.
and the introverts are awkward. That's pretty much it.
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Thanks for taking a moment for that.
Now back to the discussion.
I think everyone who's listening right now and watching, me included, is thinking of someone in my life right now that I don't enjoy being around because they're introverted.
And even though I can be very introverted in certain group settings.
Yeah, in certain groups.
In a certain group setting I'm the biggest introvert there is.
Yeah. And then in certain group settings.
And I'm the awkward one sometimes where people are like I don't get it.
You're dating him. He's so vivacious on stage and on camera and at dinner he was quiet and grumpy.
How should introverts think about friendships differently to extroverts?
I don't think they should think about friendships differently.
I think they're all the same.
The rules are the same.
You know I think we confuse introversion, extroversion and social awkwardness.
There are socially awkward introverts.
There are socially awkward extroverts.
Oh definitely, yeah.
There are socially functional introverts and there are socially functional extroverts.
I'm a socially functional introvert.
I'm okay. I'm not that awkward, though I can be.
My ex would make fun of me.
We'd go to a party.
And like all these little groups of conversations, people standing around in threes and fours with their drinks talking, one over there, one over there.
And I never knew how to insert myself into one of these.
And I know the people, but I never know how to insert myself.
And so I just stand by myself with my drink in the middle of the room.
And she would always make fun of me that I would just stand there by myself just totally fine Just taking the room in you know And I just feel sorry was sorry for everybody else just looking at me going I don't even know people don't know how to talk to me How do you walk up to a person just standing in the middle of the room at himself like I?
Think friendships are the same like of course.
It's it's partially its energy is what we get from people I'm gonna go right back to what we said before stop thinking about the introversion the extraversion of life of the party death of The party does this person?
give you something, are they additive to your day, to your night, to your life?
Not every friendship has to be a deep, meaningful relationship.
But every friendship should be additive and they should be worth the time and the energy that we invest. And one thing I look to is you don't need to keep score, but you do want there to be some reciprocal investment.
Now I've definitely had friendships where I'm the one making the plan, I'm the one doing the calling, I'm the one doing the texting.
They always respond.
But if I didn't call or text, I'm not sure I'd ever hear from them again for the rest of my life.
Right, what are you doing in that scenario?
And in those scenarios, I'm asking myself, we have fun, I'm investing, what if I didn't invest?
Well, I'm just curious.
And so I've done little experiments where I just like don't.
And some of those friendships drift apart, they just drift apart.
And you're like, huh, okay, got it.
Not offended. And then other times, the person will be like, I have not talked to you for so long, you were always so good at staying in touch with me, I'm a bad friend, I'm going to do better, I don't like not talking to you.
And they pick up their game.
And again, it goes right back to where we started if you peel the onion back one layer, most of us are bad friends and most of us are lazy.
And most of us would prioritize work before a friend and take our friends for granted.
In this case, when one person's putting in all the energy, it's super easy to be the lazy friend on the other end.
I've definitely been the lazy friend on the other end.
I have one friend, rockstar.
rock star, it's making plans, getting in touch. And so, yeah, you know.
But that's that thing, right?
It's like when we are looking at the question of is someone additive to my life, if they don't ask the other side of it.
It's also what you're looking for, right?
Like if you, as long as it's communicated, I think it's like, thank you so much for always being so good at being the one who initiates every time we get together because I can tell you every time we get together, I love seeing you.
thank you for leading the way.
It's I think it's just acknowledgement.
Again, this is why these things like human beings are messy.
There's only a few things that are quote unquote right or wrong.
But a lot of this is figuring out what each person wants.
And sometimes by the way, they want different things at different times.
Like - And that's the hardest part.
If you're really busy or if you're really stressed or if you're really distracted or, and like we all we've all been the person or been the friend of the person who like has a new romantic relationship and all of a sudden you don't exist anymore, right?
We've all been that person and we've all been on the receiving end of that person, right?
And then they break up, and then they start calling and be like, oh, well now that you're not busy, now I'm your friend again, right?
Right? And so, like, what are you doing with that situation?
Do you allow it? Do you pretend to be disrespected?
Are you offended? I feel like we have such, we seem to have such big reactions to such common occurrences.
I think communication is like lubrication.
The more communication there is, the easier the machine goes.
And without communication, what you get is friction, right?
Most fights amongst friends, I just had a fight with a friend just this week.
It was based purely on first miscommunication and then total lack of followup.
And then the tension just grew and grew and grew until one of us was like, this is ridiculous.
It's usually miscommunication and then lack of communication.
And so if you can communicate even badly that will lubricate the relationship.
And so what I find is that good relationships talk about the relationship.
Like you see good marriages and they were like, well, I love how our marriage works so well.
And you see good friendships, you know, you're like, oh, here's what I love about our friendship.
I love that I can tell you everything.
I have one friend that almost every time we talk, almost every time I will say the same thing.
You know one of the reasons I love our friendship is because that dot, dot, dot, dot.
And I even say, I know I say this every time I talk to you, but it's just how I feel every time I talk to you.
I love that we're friends because I can dot, dot, dot, or you make me feel dot, dot, dot.
Every time. And we talk about the friendship.
And I think that's healthy.
And so it's okay to talk about the friendship.
It's okay to say here's what I love, here's what I, you know.
And it's okay if we need different things in different moments.
And as I said before, if we do the work, it's not the chat GBT answer.
It's if you do the work, you get to earn the serotonin, you get to earn the oxytocin, you get to earn the feeling of the hug because it is natural and not because you counted for it.
The serotonin is because it's earned and you have genuine joy.
And if you cannot, because you've got your own stuff going on, if you cannot be that person for the time that you know they need you, then simply say so.
I got shit going on in my life.
I can't be the person you need me to be right now.
I love you, I love you, I love you.
I just need to deal with my own shit.
Because otherwise, people will make up stories.
99 times out of 100 those stories are wrong.
And then we will treat people or act based on our version of events or our story.
And that's all listening is.
Listening is just hearing what the other person's story is just so I have the context for why you've been acting the way you've been acting.
The story doesn't have to be right.
It's just their story.
Just like my story doesn't have to be right.
It's right to me, but it's just my experience of something." My friend's like, you did this and then you did this and then you did this.
And I was like, wow.
And I didn't say, well, I didn't intend to.
I said, wow, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, yes, I did do that.
And now I want to tell you my experience of what happened at the same event.
You did this and you did this and you did this.
And she said, no I didn't.
And I went, oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not telling you I'm right.
I just want you to hear how I experienced what went down.
So you have context for why I acted the way I acted because now I have context for the way you acted the way you acted.
Neither of us is right and both of us are right.
So this is about understanding, not about competing.
And the funny thing about communication is when somebody gets it wrong or when somebody gets it right, You'd be like, thank you for saying that.
That's the best thing I needed to hear.
And when they get it wrong, you'd be like, don't invalidate my story.
Please just listen to my story.
Sorry, sorry, sorry, you're right, you're right, you're right.
Like this is the great thing about human beings is we can actually like give people guidance about what they're getting right and wrong in the moment and it doesn't destroy the moment.
And you can be like, you're right, I'm sorry, I'd like to reset, please continue.
We can do that and it works.
I have one friend, I mean it's how so funny that how much guidance we're able to give people as opposed to letting them guess.
I have one friend, I was upset about something or other, who knows what, I was hurt.
I was like, can I just tell you, and I did all the things, I want to tell you, I'm hurt, and this is the story I'm telling myself, may not be true, I just want you to know what happened.
When you said this, it made me feel this way, and she goes, well, that's not what I intended.
I'm like, I didn't say you intended it.
I just want you to know how I feel, and she goes, those are your feelings.
I'm not responsible for the way you feel.
I'm like, well, actually, you are.
You know, when people say like, I'm not responsible for your feelings, your feelings, your feelings.
I'm like, that's not true.
If you say something mean, and it hurts my feelings.
Yes. they're my feelings.
And I'm responsible for my feelings.
But you said that, that made me feel bad.
So yes, you are involved in this chain of events.
I totally reject this idea.
It's like, I'm not responsible for your feelings, your feelings or your feelings.
Like, no, you called me.
You called me ugly.
And that hurt my feelings because it tapped into my insecurities.
Yeah. When it's not black and white.
Yeah. For sure. You know, but it's, you are.
You're in the chain of events.
I'm not saying you did it on a purpose.
Anyway, so I'm going on and on.
And she's just evade, deny, push.
That's your problem, those are your feelings.
I'm not responsible your feelings.
I'm living my life.
You're living your life.
This is going on and on.
And I'm getting more frustrated.
I'm getting more upset.
I'm not feeling heard. And I just said, can I just give you some advice about how this is going to just, cause you're getting frustrated with me.
I'm getting frustrated with you.
This is super easy, right?
Just say sorry. That's all I need.
Just say sorry. You said those words.
Just say sorry. She goes, I'm sorry.
I'm like, thank you.
And then we were fine.
Yeah, you can guide it.
You can guide it. And so it's like, well, I'm not saying sorry.
I'm like, I'm literally telling you all.
And by the way, one of the best lessons in the world, saying you're sorry, doesn't mean you're wrong.
Saying you're sorry means you take accountability for the things you said or the actions that were performed.
And when people are like, well I don't have to say sorry if I didn't intend them.
Well if you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag and you run over someone's foot by accident.
You turn around and they turn around.
And you're like, I'm so sorry.
Right? Didn't do it on purpose, but it is your wheelie bag.
Yeah. Now if they turn around and look at you waiting for the sorry and you're like, and you look, and they're like, what, I didn't do it on purpose.
And a fight will ensue.
You will get yelled at.
That's a great example.
Yeah. You didn't do it on purpose.
It's still your wheelie bag.
Right? You didn't do it on purpose, they're still your words, they're still your actions.
Doesn't mean you were wrong, but they are yours.
And all you have to do is apologize because it did come from you.
And like I said, I reject this whole sort of like, I'm not responsible for your feelings.
Your feelings are yours.
I don't have to apologize.
I'm like, dude, you're mean.
You were mean, you are mean.
Like what do you want me to tell ya?
You know? Simon, oh my gosh.
It has been such a joy to talk to you.
I always feel you're so refreshingly human in all your insights there.
Going back to your point on imperfect is imperfect is human and human is imperfect.
It's so refreshingly human to just talk to you about these ideas when sometimes we can end up living in a didactic three ways and two ways and say this and it's true.
All of that's helpful and it's completely unhelpful because the reality - It's useful and useless at the same time.
Exactly, yeah, because the reality is this.
I just thank you for showing up in that way because I love it, I really enjoy it because it frees you.
It's freeing, it's liberating to know that if you can be messy, we all can.
I think it's important for people to present themselves as they are, which is messy, because to present yourself as perfect sets up an unfair standard for other people to live by.
And usually people present themselves as perfect, usually out of absolute fear that they don't want people to know that they're actually imperfect.
And I'll say what I said before, to be beautiful is to be human.
To be messy is to be beautiful.
We don't fall in love with the perfection.
We fall in love with the imperfection.
We fall in love when somebody lets us be imperfect, allows us to be imperfect, and allows us to love them for being imperfect.
perfect. We showed up on the first date because of all the perfection and imperfection is earned.
Like the space to be imperfect is earned.
You do not reveal all your imperfections on date one too soon, too much. That's overwhelming.
And when you do the work and you take the small risks that then become big risks.
I want to be my messy self with somebody who loves me for my messy self and I want somebody to feel that I love them no matter how messy they are.
And that is a high standard and a hard thing to find.
And if you have a friend like that, you work damn hard to protect that friendship.
I love it. Simon, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five.
These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
So Simon Sinek, these are your final five.
Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Let's do it to do with friendship.
So the best advice I ever got professionally is three quarters of an answer is better than an answer and a half.
And I think it actually, I actually think it applies to friendship too.
Sometimes just shut up.
You know? One of the best advice I got personally is you don't have to know everything and you don't have to always be right.
And that's a relief.
Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received?
Trust me, I've been doing this longer than you.
That's a good one. I like that one.
I try and ignore people in telling you that.
Question number three, define a good friend.
I believe that friendship is two or more people who agree to grow together.
And so a good friend is somebody who we have decided that we're going to grow together.
Question number four, how do you define a bad friend?
A friend who's trying to extract rather than grow.
Fifth and final question, we asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
that I would outlaw the harp.
It's a silly instrument.
It's good for - It's good for dream sequences, that's about it.
No way. You're joking, right?
No. Really? You genuinely don't like harps?
No, I don't like harps.
Wow. Would you listen to a harp symphony?
No. I have not, but I like harps.
I didn't know. It's good for dreams. They're in heaven though.
Exactly. It's good for one thing, dream sequences.
Yeah, I would outlaw harps.
I love it. Simon Sinek And Okra.
Harps and Okra. Okra!
Wow, that's attacking my Indian heritage.
I love it. Simon, you've been a joy as ever, and I hope this is the first of many appearances on On Purpose.
I really appreciate your views as always, and I look forward to these conversations and lots more of them, so thank you.
Thanks for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth And the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential.
If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.
You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months.
And then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.
There is no sense of meaning and purpose.
You sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.
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