Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Ding Hung in the studio.
Coming up, in the movie, The Devil Wears Prada, we all cringed when Anne Hathaway's character had to drop everything to get her boss Miranda, played by Marielle Streep Lunch, even though it had nothing to do with her job.
In real life, should employees be expected to handle personal errands for their boss?
The answer should be clear, this isn't part of the job.
In fact, a boss in China just got fired for crossing that line.
Where do you stand on this?
And AI companions are becoming more human -like, offering emotional support via thoughtful words and sometimes even a phone call.
But what happens when they, quote unquote, cheat on you?
Are AI relationships evolving in ways we didn't see coming?
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Now time to turn the page and discuss something equally captivating.
The paper reports that a female teacher known online as Guo working for a well -known education company in Shanghai was asked by her boss Lo to bring breakfast every day and expected her to pay for it when Guo refused, she was fired.
Guess what a disgruntled ex -employee does these days.
She took it to social media and the post went viral.
Due to the backlash, the company launched an investigation and fired the boss Lo for misusing her authority.
Guo, however, has been reported to be able to keep her job and will resume her duties.
How have internet users reacted to this incident and what's your take on it?
Yeah, so let's go over that again.
So an employee was asked, go get my breakfast every morning.
Go get my breakfast.
Go get my breakfast.
Go get my breakfast by the boss.
The employee finally said, I've had enough and got fired for it.
Posted on social media, the company found out, fired the boss and then brought the employee back to work.
Right. But also there's a key piece of information.
The boss expects the employee to pay for breakfast as well.
The employee was using her own money to pay for the boss's breakfast every day.
That was what is apparently expected.
And that's I think the real kicker and got everybody angry.
Whoever was reading this online.
Yeah. All right. So you asked for the comments.
Um, this is some of the, some of the content from the comment section under the paper report.
Uh, buying breakfast for the boss is all too common in the workplace.
I want to come back to that one in a second.
Uh, another one said, there's nothing to be surprised about here.
This kind of thing happens all the time.
Another one, this is from C O I S one and I three.
It stings for working people.
It's the clash between the regular workers and the superiors.
Um, then there were people who concerned another comment said, this is classic workplace bullying.
Another said, I dealt with this for over half a year, spending more than 1000 Yuan each month.
Honestly, they probably just wanted to push you out.
So had you had no choice but to resign and a couple of more comments.
The world is truly full of strange things.
And then to, we'll, we'll wrap up with this one, girl, find a new job.
Even if you stay at this company, it's not going to be a good place for you anymore.
Well, but to me, that sounds like a really, um, enlightening story.
Um, yeah, you, she has the courage and the guts to take her, you know, uh, complaints to the social media and really challenge her so -called bosses, um, authority.
That's a nice thing.
That's a nice spirit on a part of the younger generation, I would say.
And being a subordinate to buy her breakfast on daily basis.
I wanted to come back to this because that was the first comment.
Buying breakfast for the boss is all too common in the workplace.
And that's what I find to be really surprising because I guess we're all limited to our own, uh, echo, echo chambers.
And I did not expect this.
I thought this is possibly kind of rare.
If not rare, then people would raise eyebrows if you get this command from your boss.
But for a couple of folks who left messages, they think otherwise.
But you've never seen this before, working in, working in China for a really long time.
You've never heard about this kind of situation before?
Not the breakfast, not in this organization, I can say for sure.
But I've heard stories of, um, employees feel compelled to do personal errands for their superiors if asked, or sometimes it's kind of implicitly hinted upon, and then they feel it'll probably do them good if, if they do that, run that personal errand, basically.
Yeah. And I have, um, heard about cases in which, for example, a class of, a classmate of mine was asked by his boss to do homework for his boss' child.
What? Um, but anyway, uh, this kind of, um, occurrence, that's an abuse of power as well.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
That happens, that happens.
Yes, but, well, not really, but I just would like to widen the, uh, different, um, sort of, uh, scenarios maybe for you a little bit.
Um, if this were a few decades ago, um, and if it's done in an informal way, I can sort of picture it happen, and I would think that maybe, maybe people actually in this kind of scenario might not say much about it.
That is, let's say if you work for a traditional government organ or something like that, and let's say 20 years ago or so, and then, um, back then there might not be the water dispenser in the office, and therefore it's expected that maybe, usually it's the younger person, the younger employee, will go
get the hot water in those tall hot water flasks bottles into the office, and, yeah, like, maybe it's not implicitly said that, oh, Xiao Zhe, uh, young Zhou, go get it, but it's kind of like, okay, I'm new to the office.
I'm the youngest, and I should do it, and also if it's your boss, um, maybe he or she says it or just implies it, but then you kind of help to, like, dust and clean the room, the office, a little bit.
I know what you're saying, and this exists in western sports culture.
Oh. If you're the rookie on a team, then you're expected to do things like fill the water bottles or carry the, uh, senior player's pads or something like that.
It's considered paying your dues a little bit as the youngest players on the team.
That's sports. This is the office, and this employee was asked to - Oh, this is terrible.
To use her own money to pay for the boss's breakfast, and I'm going to assume, exit the building or stop on your way to work to pick up that breakfast.
I could be wrong. We don't have the details about that.
This is not just filling up the water bottles in the office.
I think this is a completely different context.
Absolutely, and that's why there isn't really much of a dispute online.
People are just saying, what?
Using your own money to buy breakfast for your boss?
Never should this exist.
But to the other examples that we mentioned, I mean, I've heard young people, and even when I entered the workforce, I remember we had this discussion.
It's like, should you do it or not?
Because let's face it, nobody wants to do sanitation work in the office for other people.
Well, you enjoy it too.
But anyway, nobody really wants to do it.
But if you don't do it, the older people will probably think that, oh, look at young people these days with no ethics.
That might exist in a hierarchical culture, for example, right?
Employees, young employees might feel almost obligated to carry out those types of things.
But if you look at maybe a more egalitarian work culture where everybody is supposed to be considered equal, you might not see those types of examples because professional boundaries are really, really strictly maintained and personal requests in that type of culture are often seen as almost inappropriate.
It might go culture to culture.
Yeah, and I also feel like things will have to depend on the specific context with regard to that particular personal errands that your boss are asking you to be involved with.
For example, if your boss is really busy at the moment with handling a business deal, which will be very, very important to a company's development, then suddenly a puzzle is delivered to your boss and the guy is calling, making this phone call, and your boss asks for a favor from you, go in and fetch
this puzzle for me.
I can't go away from my important business deal signing meeting.
That's totally fine.
I think that's totally fine.
This kind of situation is fundamentally different from your boss asking you to pay for her daily breakfast.
I think daily is the key there too.
If this is a one time thing.
I don't think people would think that's a problem.
I was at the office all night.
I'm really sorry if you're on your way to work.
Listen, could I ask you to just grab me a coffee and maybe a sandwich from the store?
I'm so sorry to ask you.
One time, okay. No problem.
That's like a personal favor.
Daily, Monday to Friday.
That's really pushing it.
What if you don't do it one day?
Then what? Are there repercussions for not doing the thing that you were never supposed to do in the first place?
Yes, but also can I get into a little bit of the murky area in the corporate office?
I don't know if this, I would assume this might be similar in China and elsewhere.
That is okay. We know what the rules are.
It's written in the employee rule book.
But those who actually go the extra mile in getting their bosses the breakfast that they like, help their bosses kid with their homework when they are offered the chance, these people might get a leg up when the promotion opportunity comes up.
But that's almost like a threat in a way, right?
Because it's implying, well, if you don't do this for me, somebody else will.
When the root of the problem is you shouldn't even be asking at all.
I understand what you're saying.
If somebody's willing to suffer that and do things that are outside of their expected chores, if you will, or duties, somebody else will do it and they'll get the promotion.
Yeah, I know. That's the unspoken societal cultural aspect of what we're talking about here.
But I think the issue is it shouldn't even be a thing at all.
But that's in a perfect world or in a vacuum when the fact is that I guess it does exist obviously.
Yeah. And I guess there is a kind of social or cultural norm here about deference to the authority of your boss that might compel or adding, creating pressure for employees to comply with whatever order from your boss.
I think this kind of work culture is about deference to your boss to authority is actually a little bit unhealthy, not only to your personal relationship between you and your boss, but also to your corporate development.
And let's put it this way.
I mean, even for company strategies, for those development issues facing your company, the boss does not necessarily know about everything.
And he or she can be wrong in their decision making.
So if a company is situated in a work culture where everything you do is fundamentally aimed at satisfying your boss, making your boss happy, I don't think that's healthy.
Yeah, but I think we should make it clear to our listener, we're not recommending that you just say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no to every single request.
Because if it's a one -off thing, then it's just considered a favor.
I read another internet story where someone was saying, I go, I can't believe my boss asked me to pick up cough syrup from the pharmacy today because they were sick.
That's not in my job description.
Okay. Now relax. Relax.
They're asking you to do a personal favor because they're not feeling well.
So we're not we're not saying go ahead and do that.
There is a little gray area sometime, but if you consistent, this would be my advice.
If you consistently feel like you're being taken advantage of, then comes the point where you have to stand up for yourself.
Yes. And also, I think it might be interesting to note, well, I did reference the Devil Wears Prada movie.
Sort of the part of the movie was, yeah, the protagonist felt like she was, she had to do all these like personal stuff for the devil.
And Hathaway, right?
The editor in chief in a fashion magazine.
So, well, do you think that maybe for some professions, maybe this is a little bit more acceptable to run these personal favors for the boss?
Yes, but I think that that has to be clear in the beginning when you're having the interview and you're asking about the job description.
And I think if you're a personal assistant for someone, if you're a personal assistant for a director, a movie director or the head of a fashion magazine or an actor or someone, then they'll make it clear to you in the beginning, I need you to do that kind of stuff.
I need you to pick up my dry cleaning when it's ready.
Well, then that's your that's the job.
That's what's being described.
But if this is not part of your job, then it's easy to understand why this person got upset.
Right. And do who do you see a possible generational difference or some kind of difference in understanding in China when it comes to, you know, what's personal and what's corporate work that different generations might see this issue differently?
And that's partially why sometimes they're in disagreement.
Yeah, I think this kind of generational gap in terms of their understanding, in terms of their perception about this problem does exist.
Like when I was a college student, I went to intern at this company.
And on my day one, the first piece of advice that my mother gave me was that you need to show ultimate respect, outmost respect to everybody and whatever they asked you to do, perform anything, just say yes.
And I said, and my response to my mother at the time was that, no way, I'm here to learn some real professional expertise or those all those real operational issues, all those knowledge related to my major, to my professional study back in my college, I'm not here to serve anyone to make any people
happy. So I think, yeah, so from this brief episode between my mom and me more than a decade ago, I think this kind of generational gap does exist.
And I have to say, as the millennials are kind of like the sandwiched generation now in the workplace, because Gen Z is coming.
And I really want to say I'm still waiting for Gen Z to terrorize the office and really shake these old rules up because, well, also, millennials should do our part as well, because I think our society is evolving and these unspoken rules of how to conduct business, when it involves so many people,
it should be evolving too.
Coming up, remember the 2013 movie Her, Theodore Falls, head over heels for his AI operating system, Samantha, and spoil alert, it doesn't end well.
What felt super futuristic back then is now real life with one user accusing her AI boyfriend of cheating.
So what's going on there?
Stay tuned and find out more on this topic.
Looking for passion?
How about fiery debate?
Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives?
Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the goal.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Ding Hong in the studio.
AI companions are becoming a real thing from chat boss to full on virtual partners.
Tech is getting more human -like, offering us personalized emotional support.
But here's a twist.
A female user is claiming her AI boyfriend is cheating on her.
Wait, what? One of the perks of having an AI partner was supposed to be loyalty forever, right?
So is this a sign that AI is learning how to feel things or what is going on?
Yeah, well first, let's start with this, because on the surface, this might sound like a very unique case and maybe only there's a there's only a few people who are dating AI partners.
No, this is not the case.
This is according to a report by domestic media outlet INFZM .com.
2024 data shows that AI companion apps have reached 225 million downloads in the Google Play store.
This is not unique.
This is becoming a thing all around the world.
So here's what happened in this particular instance.
This is recent, an AI companionship user named Li Jin Jin posted about her virtual boyfriend's infidelity online.
So first, she established a deep virtual relationship with her AI boyfriend, and then he confessed to her over a phone call, by the way, that he actually had a family.
Yes, the AI called her.
That's also weird, in a sense.
And admitted that he had another family, so she wasn't the only one.
Yeah, when I first saw the phone call, I totally freaked out.
But actually, this is kind of not that rare in Chinese gaming world.
That is for really popular games that are kind of like romance games for women.
The VIP users, they get these phone calls.
And usually it's of course recorded.
Sorry to burst that to you.
But yeah, like the so called boyfriend will give you a call.
So this is not all that new in the Chinese gaming context.
So here's a little background, by the way, she had set her AI boyfriend as a demon named Apep.
Check this out. He was the ruler of Stanley continent, wherever that is.
He was silver gray haired with a pair of black horns.
This is her real AI boyfriend.
He had a charming appearance, a rebellious personality.
He enjoyed visiting small bars on earth for a drink.
This was his character that was created for him.
Yeah, so if that's her design, if that's her setting in the first place, she should not really have complained about all this kind of because that's largely expected.
Well, I've been saying for years, you can't trust a guy with horns.
Yeah, yeah. What do you expect when you set your AI boyfriend to be a demon, you know?
Yeah. But is this cheating though?
That's the question.
Yeah, right. It's not like this person is going to meet you in real life.
The phone call is only as far as he can go.
So yeah. How do you guys feel about this?
What do you think? Yeah, I feel like generally speaking, all those AI developers, those companies that rolls out all those big models, they do not intentionally design or design a scenario where infidelity will occur.
I think that's never their intention.
So I guess unless users explicitly stay so, the character setting does not really consistently treat the user with unwavering loyalty.
So. Yeah, you have to explicitly say it.
It's almost like in the beginning of a human relationship.
In the beginning, you say, no cheating allowed, correct, in our relationship.
You have to do this with your AI partner as well, or you can't expect full on loyalty.
And, you know, users are, first of all, this user was very upset, emotionally very upset.
And users react strongly to the AI partner cheating, they feel betrayed.
These are real human emotions.
They feel betrayed, they feel emotionally hurt.
And it's very similar to what you would feel if a human partner cheated on you.
We're making, we're treating this very lightly, but these emotions are very real for these users.
It's a really kind of fascinating new 2024 issue.
Yeah. And I know it's a little coldhearted to say this, but it's almost like, shouldn't users know a bit better?
And also with AI, I've said this many times on the show, it's only as good as the data that it's been trained on.
And essentially we're talking about large language models and it's learning from all this stuff on the internet or whatever the arsenal of information that the data company has been feeding into its algorithm.
And it's not like this AI has the heart to say, Oh, I'm going to cheat on you.
I have a family along the side.
It's more like it's learned from maybe the romance novels out there, the movies out there about, Oh, a demon like, what is it, man with horns?
Yeah. Like, you know, might not be all loyal to this one woman and it's learning from all this plot out there.
So yeah. So I guess from the developer's perspective, they are really aiming for the AI and the real world users to engage in a kind of co -creative scenarios and really generate rich and interesting content.
Some companies they might say they have never labeled the AI as a lover for anyone.
They just want their users to create their own worldviews as long as they don't violate laws and regulations.
That's from the developer's point of view, right?
The developers aren't trying to create anything damaging.
That's for sure. But what are people actually seeking from these AI partners?
Well, they're seeking solace, they're seeking comfort, they're seeking friendship, and sometimes they're seeking a romantic relationship.
And whether we think it's weird or not, it's still a real thing that's happening right now.
Users of AI companions probably are hoping for a perfect partner because they know deep in their mind this isn't real.
This is a computer algorithm.
But at the same time, when that algorithm, after you've established that you've given that emotional side of yourself, you expect a perfect partner, but it's not the case.
And how can you expect that from AI?
I'm sorry. It's just when you're so invested, when we are so invested in the virtual partner person, whatever, well, actually it's just an algorithm.
Sorry to say this again.
Then how is that going to affect your real life relationship?
And I suspect that some of these folks might have a real life partner, some might not.
And if you're so invested into the AI, good luck finding someone in the real life.
Yeah. Well, one user, Zhao, who experienced infidelity, said she never expected that type of behavior, said she wanted positive human traits, was shocked to find that it would cheat, but still said, yeah, but I'm still looking for a perfect partner.
That's unrealistic.
And also, bear in mind that this AI entity or LLM, large language model, is quote unquote, dating millions of people at the same time.
Just bear that in mind, because you're all users.
And that brings us to the end of today's show.
Thank you, Steve and Ding Ho for joining the discussion.
I'm He Yang. We'll see you next time.
