You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Steve Hatherly.
And coming up today, we continue the special series on Zhuangzi, about one of the most influential philosophers of ancient China.
Who was Zhuangzi?
And what life lesson can we still draw from his centuries-old wisdom?
In this series, we'll explore some of the most fascinating stories from Zhuangzi and reflect on what they reveal about how we live, think and choose.
In today's show, we bring you the story, Tu Yang Yue Refuses Rewards.
The story touches on some intriguing questions.
Is it wrong to accept rewards for things that you didn't do?
Should we be destined to stay in our position in society and refuse opportunities if we don't believe that we truly deserve them?
Over 2,500 years ago, the state of Wu invaded the state of Chu. forcing his king to escape.
Some of his people fled with him, including sheep butcher Tu Yang Yue.
In the following year, the king fought back and regained control of his kingdom.
For those who have been loyal to me and supported me.
Now I want to offer you noble titles and huge money rewards.
All those who accompanied the king received rewards, except Tu Yang Yue.
When his majesty lost control of the kingdom, I also lost my job as a sheep butcher.
Now his majesty has regained power, I have also gotten back my job.
I already restored what had once belonged to me.
Why should I get any extra reward?
On hearing this, the king was curious, but he insisted on rewarding Tu Yang Yue.
And the sheep butcher still said no.
It was not my fault that His Majesty lost the kingdom, so I did not accept any punishment for it.
And I did not make any contribution to His Majesty resuming power, so I do not dare to accept any reward for it.
But the king could not understand and grew even more curious.
Is he not satisfied with the reward?
Does he have any other requirements?
Bring him into my presence.
I'll ask him in person.
To everyone's surprise, Tu Yang Yue refused to see the king.
According to the law of our kingdom, if one wants to have the honor to see the king, he or she must have received huge awards or made great contributions.
But I didn't.
I was not wise enough to help the king save the kingdom, nor was I brave enough to die in the war against the invaders.
When we were invaded, I was very frightened.
So I ran away.
I did not follow his majesty on purpose, though his majesty is willing to see me, regardless of the laws and statutes.
It will not bring me any good reputation.
Please allow me not to take the honor.
This time, the king turned emotional.
The sheep butcher is in a humble position, but his words on righteousness are lofty indeed.
Minister of War, on my behalf, I want you to offer him a position as one of the Three Nobles.
Three Nobles were the highest government ministers in ancient China.
However, the sheep butcher again refused.
I am fully aware that the position of the Three Nobles is far loftier than a sheep butcher.
And an exorbitant salary is more than I will ever make slaughtering sheep.
But how can I allow His Majesty to gain a reputation for handing out such favors irresponsibly because of my case?
I dare not take it.
Please let me go back to the sheep butcher's stall.
In the end, he didn't take any of the rewards.
A normal life should remain normal, free from disturbances.
The key to it is to deal with dazzling temptation and escape extra rewards.
Tu Yang Yue followed the king in exile and followed him back home, all for his own sake, to live his own life as a street vendor selling mutton.
He did it.
Remember how many people failed to decline extra bonuses and eventually ruined their life?
Cheating occurs everywhere, anytime.
But can we hold on to a simple life and just enjoy what we're entitled to?
Tu Yangyue did not even disclose his name.
To him, reputation is nothing.
That was Tu Yangyue Refuses Rewards from our special series Zhuangzi, coming up next.
Dou Hongyu and Yunqi will share their own interpretations and takeaways from this story.
What's up, everyone?
This is Dou Hongyu from the Beijing Hour.
And hello, this is Yunqi with a deep dive.
In this story, Tu Yangyue didn't accept the rewards in the high position because he didn't think he deserved all of those, because he just escaped and then returned during the reconstruction of his state.
So he didn't think he made any contributions.
But that is only his perspective towards this whole story, right?
The king thought that what was valuable was the butcher's loyalty.
And that's why the king thought he deserved the rewards.
So I think he actually had a great reason to accept the rewards.
And by the way, that would make his and his family's life much better.
So Hongyu explained from the perspective of Tu Yangyue.
And let me tell you the perspective from the king, from the manager's perspective.
And here's the guideline on how to ask for a favor from your employee or from anyone that you first give them a compliment.
Okay.
You tell them, wow, you didn't take my reward.
I really respect the character and the personality you have.
So I'm going to give you a promotion to this position.
And the truth is that this king, this boss he had already ask the same question to many other candidates before reaching out to you, and you are not the only person in the whole world that we only have you as the suitable, as the solely suitable candidate for this very position.
We're not sure and that's the negotiation strategy from the king of convincing you that you are the best candidate for this position.
So I think, in short, people shouldn't make an important career decision for a position that you don't feel like deserving.
Just like in this case, Tu Yang Yue was first offered a rewarding bonus and then a promotion to a position that is completely irrelevant to what he was doing in the first place.
And in real life, if we compare us to the situation, to the case, to the story of Tu Yang Yue.
The biggest bonus that we will receive ever is when we get laid off and getting our severance package.
I know why you think this way.
It's because...
The new position seemed to be very far away from the original position.
But first of all, we're not sure what really happened during this story, whether the king really asked that.
A lot of people
I think one thing that is important is that maybe it is the king who could see the huge potential of the butcher.
Maybe Tu Yang Yue could be someone high above being a butcher.
But, based on the horizon and the limited resources of Tu Yangyue, maybe he was not able to see his whole potential.
And that reminds me of the story of a Chinese philosopher and educator in the 19th to the 20th century, Chen Duxiu.
And he was a leading figure in promoting progressive ideas back then, like science and democracy.
Well, he was already a very well-known figure, unlike the butcher.
But when he was provided with an offer to take charge of the liberal arts department of the prestigious Peking University, he made the same decision as the butcher.
He refused.
One of the reasons is that he didn't think he has enough teaching experience and ability.
So to some extent, he didn't think he deserved the position.
And for another reason, He was not quite interested in taking a position at college.
But in the end, he took the position because of the persistent invitation from the university.
The university could see his potential, but he couldn't.
And it turned out that his leadership at the university helped him to attract talented students and faculty to join him to promote his progressive ideas.
So this new platform actually helped him to achieve this potential that he couldn't see in the past.
I think this is also the same with the butcher.
Maybe the new position in the government could help him to better achieve his potential than he couldn't see.
Right.
I think if you don't even realize the potential you have for something, if you don't even have that urge, that desire to grab and seize this position, this position, this opportunity, then don't take it.
Because for anyone to succeed, you will need at least 10,000 hours of repetition.
And a lot of those time, you won't be doing the things that appear shiny and glorious.
Most of the time you will be repeating tedious work over time and time again.
And why people?
Why sometimes people fail during the course of career development is that they fail is because the failure is because of the burnout from these process of grinding through repetition.
And when do work?
Don't feel like grinding is when you have a passion, when you desire for the success, when you enjoy doing this job.
Take the example from Ronnie Coleman.
And so he has won the title of Mr. Olympia for eight times.
And he's a bodybuilder.
And, just like many other bodybuilders, his success is due to incredible dedication of repetitive training and and intensive workouts, and this is a position that a lot of people wouldn't want to take.
It because nowadays more people from the younger generation they want to be an influencer, they want to be a content creator and they want to be a streamer doing these content creation online jobs, And they don't want to be a bodybuilder.
Why?
Because bodybuilding already looks difficult and tedious enough because you have to do tons of training.
You have to control you have to control your diet.
The influence job, they look shiny, shiny, easy and glorious.
But there are many things behind the scene that people are not aware of just simply from looking at how successful the content creators are.
Because it is soon, because even a job like influencer could soon become become a grinding, become tedious when you run out of your creative juice, when you're struggling to make your ends meet.
And that's the same for in the case of two young year that he was offered a position to become a government official, to run a government department.
So a managerial position.
Sometimes people might want that more than the ones that want to be become a bodybuilder, because to become a manager, to run a government department,
It feels like you've got power, you've got authority.
But trust me, being in this position, there might be more compromises you have to make.
There will be a lot more harder choices you have to make behind the scenes that you may not be aware of.
So a simple advice is that if you don't even realize you have a potential you have a desire for position then don't take it because during the time for you to repeat stuff and to achieve the ultimate success you will have to spend way more time on doing stuff and work that may be very tedious and boring to you and you will not be able to survive through this process if you don't have that desire But I think that's a typical red light mindset, because I think any successful person would have to go through a very harsh period when they had to do those tedious practices, as you said.
And being a great government official also requires a lot of work.
And of course, that also needs motivation and passion and interest in it.
But I don't think that moving to a higher position or taking another platform or opportunity will make somebody's intrinsic motivation just disappear.
Probably the greater platform will help them to achieve their original aspirations, because they will have higher horizons and they will have more resources, like Tu Yang Yue.
Maybe he was interested in doing business.
But if he could work in the state government he would probably apply for working for the business department.
So he would use his talent to have a greater say in the country to better promote businesses in his state.
And more importantly, it'll help him to achieve higher level of needs.
You know, according to Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people have the basic needs, like demands for food and water and air.
And then the pyramid goes all the way up to self-actualization.
And if Tu Yang Yue could work for the state government, he would take greater responsibilities because there will be more challenges.
And that will help him to better achieve self-actualization.
If he continued to be a butcher, could he achieve self-actualization?
Of course, yes.
But that would be very fragile because he and his family's basic needs were probably more difficult to be met.
If he could end up in a higher position with a lot of money, it would be easier for him to achieve his self-actualization.
It's interesting that Hongyu brought up the theory of demands and desires.
So let's think about what do modern people desire and need for our lives.
So people want branded clothing.
We want to own a property.
We buy electronic gadgets for daily entertainment and stuff.
We pay for gym membership to maintain our health.
And, of course, on a spiritual level, we do a lot of things to improve our ego against our friends, to feel superior than others.
And the thing is, a lot of these desires, they inflate over time.
There's an inflation happening for the type of things that we want to make our lives feel satisfied, happy.
For example, electronic gadgets, iPhone the very first edition of iPhone was only launched in 2007.
And before that were we really not happy, with no mobile games and constant WeChat and with constant post of your lives through pictures and videos on your WeChat moments.
We were also happy.
And then the gym culture.
Only started appearing around the beginning of 21st century or the late 20th century.
And maybe in China, it was a bit later than that.
And before that, we were really not healthy.
I think that's only a compensation for a sedentary lifestyle, that we overspend our time sitting on chairs.
And so my point is a lot of the desires and needs we have for our daily lives to make us feel happy.
They don't have to be like that way.
They inflate over time and they don't have to be like that.
And now coming back to the story of Tu Yang Yue and our discussion on his choice and how that will reflect, will guide philosophy in living our life, in developing our career, career better.
So taking the position from the king, taking the position that too young yeah, doesn't real, doesn't realize that he has the potential for, is essentially sacrificing your work content, for your life content because people feel like oh, I'm gonna take money, I'm gonna gain confidence from this position, from my work life, so I can have more money that I can spend in satisfying my other needs, my other desires for my usual entertainment and leisure life.
But that should not be the case, because if you simply run the math by dividing your everyday hours into several sections, then you will realize you spend at least eight hours a day.
Work yes, and how much time do you have for entertainment after that?
I don't know two or three hours at night to relax yourself.
So you're telling me you're gonna sacrifice eight, nine hours of your everyday hours by doing something you don't in, that you may not enjoy, just for the sake of exchanging this unhappiness at work for happiness and outside work?
And work does take a huge chunk of our lives and that's on a daily basis.
And if you look at our whole life we start at, we start working from the age, from around the age 20th and to retirement, around 65, depending on which country you're from.
And this time period is much likely longer than your romantic partner.
So throughout this course of your work life, you may already have or had one or two or three different spouses.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, so let me make this simpler for you.
The desires and demands you have for your leisure life can be easily inflated, some of them.
They don't have to be like that way, and some of these are made up concepts in a modern lifestyle right and at the same time, your work life accounts for a huge chunk of your entire lifespan, that every day you spent eight or nine hours in your workplace.
So it's very important for people to find joy from your work rather than thinking work just as a means of either financial gain or a way to fulfill your ego.
So you can live a better leisure life.
And I know a lot of people make such a kind of sacrifice, and that should be stopped, because it's also important for you to find content and enjoyment from your work life.
That's as important as your leisure life.
Is this what you are really thinking?
Do you really think that electronic gadgets don't make you happy?
I believe this.
This comes from someone who just spent tens of hours playing Black Myth Wukong.
I did have a good time playing that video game.
But my point is even before video games were invented, there were still many different ways for us to find joy and to entertain ourselves.
And we don't have to depend our happiness on electronic gadgets, especially not to sacrifice our work life, just for fulfilling these desires outside work.
I think that's why we're talking about self-actualization, because the games only make you feel more empty, but you try to achieve this sense of fulfillment from work.
But it actually goes back to the point that if you can take a greater position, it helps you to achieve self-actualization.
Actually, the pyramid of needs may be ubiquitous, but The reason why we have this debate is that every single individual has his or her own hierarchy of values.
Probably people think having an ordinary life is more important, or maybe for someone else taking a greater position and making greater contributions is more valuable.
Right.
So as we wrap up this discussion, we'd love to hear from you.
What lessons resonated with you from this story?
How would you interpret the themes?
We encourage you to continue this discussion and stay tuned for more thought-provoking topics.
That was Dou Hongyue and Yunqi discussing their takeaways from the stories Tu Yang Yue Refuses Rewards as part of our Zhuangzi series.
If you liked this story and want to explore more on Chinese philosophy, simply search Sage and Youth debating Zhuangzi's Tao on your favorite podcast platform.
That brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.
Leave us a comment wherever you listen to your podcast, or send us an email to roundtablepodcast at qqcom.
Thanks for tuning in, and you can find us on Apple Podcasts by searching at Roundtable China.
I'm Steve.
We'll see you next time.
