So have you ever said yes when every part of you actually meant to say no and then later felt that quiet resentment building, maybe towards someone else, maybe even toward yourself?
Today we're talking about boundaries, real ones, the kind that protect your time, your energy, your emotional well-being and honestly, your sense of self.
Because here's the truth.
You can't live a great life without great boundaries.
Thank you so much for having me.
We talk about the one sentence boundary that changes everything.
Why explaining yourself too much can actually backfire.
The hidden benefits that keep you stuck in patterns.
You say you want to change and how to start small, especially at work or with family, when you feel like you can't just walk away.
This is about learning to talk true, to be seen and to live free.
So excited to share this conversation with you.
I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.
Hey, so up.
First we're diving into ideas with Nedra Glover-Toab, a licensed therapist and sought-after relationship expert.
She's the founder and owner of the group therapy practice Kaleidoscope Counseling.
Every day, she helps people create healthy relationships by teaching them how to implement boundaries.
Her philosophy is that a lack of boundaries and assertiveness underlie most relationship issues, and her gift is helping people create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
And Nedra is also the author of the New York Times bestselling book Set Boundaries, Find Peace, along with her recently released The Balancing Act creating healthy dependency and connection without losing yourself.
Here's Nedra.
Let's talk about what we actually mean with this word boundaries, because I think probably people will hear that differently.
When you use the word boundary, what are you actually talking about?
I think of boundaries as your needs, your expectations, things that will keep you safe and sane in your relationship with yourself and others.
There are some pretty clear boundaries that are legal, right?
Laws are boundaries.
And there are some that are just for us and very unique.
It's interesting to hear you use the word expectation.
It's sort of like this is the expectation I have for how I guess maybe I will treat myself how others will treat me.
Because that expectation also, it sounds like, is something that can be changeable potentially over time, and maybe changeable for the good, but also maybe changeable in an unhealthy way.
Yes, I think as we change, our expectations of people can change.
I've been in conversation a lot lately with who are trying to navigate their relationships with their parents because their parents' expectation has not changed of them as children, but the adults' expectation has changed of what a parenting job looks like when I'm an adult.
And so...
It can be very challenging to shift roles in relationships when we have a global idea of this is how it should be.
We have to be flexible sometimes with our expectations, especially when we're in relationships with other people maybe not with ourselves.
We can control whatever expectation we want, but with other people Things change and we have to allow some things to shift.
And and if not, we always you know, we always have options in our relationships to stay or go.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You talk about a number of different types of boundaries.
So I thought it'd be helpful to walk through sort of like the major categories.
Probably first up is what I think a lot of people might think about first and foremost when they think about boundaries, which is literally physical boundaries.
What are we talking about when we talk about physical boundaries?
We are talking about your body and your space.
During the pandemic, physical boundaries became very important.
Six feet back, right?
So space is really important.
And some of us are like, I don't like people standing too close to me.
I don't like people like touching me when they talk.
Those are all physical boundaries and those are things that should be communicated, because if we're not communicating, we're typically cringing, we're upset, we're mad.
And these are things that people may need to know to be able to engage with us.
Yeah.
And I wonder if, of the different categories of boundaries, physical boundaries may be the type of boundary that is most often affected by trauma.
I would say physical boundaries.
Sexual and emotional.
Emotional first because, with emotional boundaries, you are told.
When the boundary is violated, you are told what to think, how to feel, what should be appropriate for you in terms of how you feel.
And that happens a lot with physical and sexual abuse.
People are told is not that bad.
It could have been this.
Don't tell this person.
These are all of these things.
So it's not just one boundary that's violated.
When people are in trauma situations, there are multiple boundaries that are violated.
And so repairing all of these areas is the work that a person must do, is not just okay, you're not being physically abused anymore.
It's like let's talk about the emotional part of this because you told someone, or even while you were crying.
Can you imagine being beat and someone telling you not to cry?
Like the emotional violation of even the sexual and the physical is pretty significant.
Yeah, I could see how they would compound and be intertwined in really devastating ways.
And you just referenced emotional and sexual.
So we've talked about physical, sexual, emotional.
Intellectual boundaries is something that you referenced too, which I thought was really interesting and I'd never really thought about before.
Tell me more about this.
Yesterday I was watching a show with my daughter and she She was saying this is the person on the show who doesn't know a lot of stuff.
I said, what does that mean?
She's like, you know, the person who doesn't understand things.
And I thought to myself, oh, she's saying stupid.
But she's not saying stupid.
She's saying what's appropriate.
She's saying, you know, this person doesn't know a lot of things.
And I said, well, what are they good at?
And so she was able to say well, this person, they really they're really good at baking, but everything else like they don't know anything.
And so intellectual.
It reminded me of intellectual boundaries, because the intellectual boundary is saying that people are stupid, they're dumb, they don't understand things, their ideas are off, they don't matter.
As humans, we are strong in some areas and maybe not so strong in other areas.
We may not think the same about certain things, but how do we communicate with people who think differently than us?
Is it appropriate to demean them?
Is it appropriate to shame or smear them for having ideas?
And sometimes, especially on social media, these ideas aren't even unsafe.
It's how I've seen things, where people are talking about flower arrangements and the comments are like you're doing it wrong, really.
Isn't that about creativity?
You know, just to stomp on someone's differences is often a intellectual boundary, particularly when their differences does not harm them or other people.
You also talk about material boundaries.
What are we talking about there?
Your stuff, that's your material, your possessions, your money.
Those are your things and they should be respected.
If you loan someone something, it should be returned in the way that you lent it out.
Or there should be some idea about this is my expectation for my car.
This is my expectation for my home.
You have some level of ownership over the things that you possess, and other people do too.
This is one where there are laws around tearing up property.
Like there are laws around violating material boundaries.
It is a very serious thing.
And we feel very seriously about it.
And yet it can be very hard to communicate to someone your expectations around your stuff.
Yeah.
I mean, and even sort of the lesser infractions where it's not a law thing but maybe, like you're living with roommates, right?
It's got like four people in an apartment or a suite in college, or maybe like you're in a new place and you're sharing space with people who maybe you're not even super comfortable with yet.
Maybe you're kind of just more roommates and not quite yet friends.
I have to imagine that this comes up All the time in those situations, because people will have very different expectations about their stuff and about whether it's okay to share or to use.
And if you do, how do you actually treat it?
The last category and tell me if I have this right and it being the sort of like last one was time boundaries.
Tell me more about this.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think that is the one that many of us are most impacted by.
We're constantly trying to figure out how to turn the clock back, get more time out of a day, manage our time better all of these things.
How do we develop healthier boundaries with time?
And really We have to be strategic about how we allow others to use our time and how we allow ourselves to use our time.
Often we get very upset at people for wasting our time, for using too much of our time when, in actuality, we're in power of what they can waste right.
We're not giving our time away.
We're allowing it to be used.
And so if there is an issue with time boundaries, we really have to think about what can I do to manage the time that I have?
So how do you handle a situation, especially around time boundaries, where I feel like this really comes up often probably, where you have a particular expectation about what's okay and what's not okay with your time?
But you exist within a greater culture or community where there's a norm.
There's a cultural norm about what is and what isn't okay.
And there's a big clash.
Let's say...
You work in a company and the expectation on your team is that the leader or the manager is can call on anyone in the team at any given time.
And that's kind of what people are saying yes to when they sign up for.
And they're extraordinarily well compensated.
And it's sort of like the team or the project or the company everyone aspires to be a part of.
And the norm is you will be basically surrendering your life.
I'm thinking back to a past part of my life where many, many years ago, I was a lawyer, actually.
And I worked in a giant firm in New York City And it was expected that you would work 80 100 hours a week.
And if there was a call, you would show up.
That actually ended up putting me in the hospital.
Because I honored that norm.
I had never drawn my own boundaries.
But I'm wondering how you deal with it when this is tied to something like your ability to earn your living.
And there's this cultural norm.
That's really strong and it's really expected and it's been established since way before you showed up.
And you're at a moment where you feel like if you set your own boundary, it may well leave you without a job.
Yeah.
I love talking to attorneys and accountants about time boundaries, because those are industries where there is no concept of time boundaries.
It's like, no, I have to do this.
Like, this is a really important thing.
And I often wonder, what if someone stopped doing it?
What if we change the culture?
Because I think what we're agreeing to is continuing in the culture that exists.
Many other systems have been shifted, simply by people changing.
How do we say, I will be the person on vacation not responding to this thing?
How do we get other people to join us?
How do we start to have these conversations?
Now I understand that, when you agree to work in certain places, that there is a culture of overworking.
But we know that overworking doesn't mean that you're being more productive, because you're often distracted, you're tired, you're all sorts of things.
There's so many problems with overworking people, burnout being the top one.
So how do we create truly inclusive, engaging work environments?
It's not having people work 70 to 80 hours.
If they're working 70 to 80 hours man, if you let them just work 40, they'd be as productive as if they were working 90.
Yeah.
I mean, and I 100% agree with that.
And yet still, if you're that person who's in that culture and you say no, there's a safe bet that you're going to lose your job.
And, let's say, you have a family to support.
It's gotta be a brutally hard moment, you know, because you're trying to do what's in your best interest, what's in like the best interest of your wellbeing, your physical and emotional wellbeing.
And, at the same time, you feel that there's a value around you, potentially supporting yourself, supporting a family.
So I wonder if there are these moments where drawing a boundary line, you know, has potentially much bigger implications.
And you would love for that system you're working to change, but it hasn't yet.
And so the decision to draw and hold to that boundary Also has bigger consequences.
And you kind of have to make a decision to say I'm acknowledging that doing this is going to prioritize my health or my well-being.
And it may also have consequences.
But it's sort of like a value-based thing.
It's so important to me that even if there are consequences, this is the thing I still have to do.
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that, as you stated, with your situation, the consequence for you personally was being hospitalized.
So it's it's almost as if pick your consequence.
Do you want to not be able to work at all, or do you want to at least try to change some of the things now with those career fields in particular?
I think it's.
There are small ways that we can place boundaries.
And that's how the boundary setting starts is not this grand.
I'm not you know, but it is these very small things that you can do to start allowing people to acknowledge that there are some boundaries in place.
Now, I have often been shocked by.
The people who say no one has boundaries and you can think of one person, even in that work environment, that has boundaries.
It's like, well, this person leaves every day at five.
How?
How?
I thought this was a system where no one could do it.
What are they doing differently?
How are they able to really manage this system in a different way?
So I think the bigger thing here is how do we start small?
When we're in environments that will not accept our boundaries, and we choose to stay in those environments.
If we're choosing to stay, how do we have healthier boundaries in other areas?
What are our self-care practices?
What are our relationships like?
You can't have relationships that are chaotic, no self-care and work 80 hours a week.
Like you have to, to have some other things that are really holding up, holding you up so you can, you know, function in this 80 hour a week job.
And I think the challenge therapeutically is everything is on fire.
It's not just that.
You are working 80 hours.
It's you're working 80 hours.
You have a terrible relationship with your brother.
Your mother hasn't talked to you in four weeks.
You can't keep a partner.
Your laundry is.
So there are so many things.
So, yes, you want to be an attorney.
Less focus on.
That piece, you know, that piece you don't want to change, you know, you want to stay there.
But what about all of this other stuff that's also contributing to your boundary issues, that's contributing to the burnout.
So there's typically not just one piece, it's multiple pieces, even in a system that you can't change.
There are many other things in life that you might be able to change, so you can stay in this system that you want to be in.
Yeah, that's so powerful.
And I didn't really think about it that way.
There's sort of this compounded effect where you can sort of address what you can address and maybe that actually stabilizes the ship.
It creates enough stillness and health that you can actually function a little bit better in this other area, even if it's not immediately changeable.
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
One of the things that you mentioned earlier also is this notion of how boundaries are communicated.
And I feel like that's got to be such a big part of this process.
Right is the communication side of it.
Tell me more about your lens, on how important that is and on how to effectively do it, and maybe also where people tend to stumble.
You know, speaking your boundaries can be done in two ways.
We can verbalize it or we can behave differently.
Oftentimes we are very disturbed by saying something to someone.
I think of folks who say oh my gosh, my friend calls me every day at five o'clock and she talks about blah blah, blah.
And I don't want to hear it.
And my first thought is, why do you answer the phone?
Why do you answer the phone?
Oh, because they're calling me.
We have voicemail.
We have text messages.
You don't have to answer your phone if someone calls it.
That's a boundary.
I'm not always available by phone.
There are times where I will not be available to you at 5 p.m.
What do you want?
Leave me a text message.
How do we?
So that is a way you know.
Maybe not answering the phone is a better way than saying hey, I don't like it when you talk about blah, blah blah.
You can say that as well, that sometimes our conversations go to a space and I don't know how to support you.
Can you tell me how to support you?
Because...
You're having a reoccurring issue.
So those are ways that we can say to people or show them these are my boundaries.
With boundaries.
I think the challenge is often we try to control how a person will respond to the boundary.
In doing that, we say a lot.
I think you can state most boundaries in one to two sentences.
Typically, people will have an hour long conversation and they still haven't stated a boundary.
They're problem talking and then this happened and this happened and I'd like you to fix this.
And this is what happens with work environments.
There has been, you know little discussion of we need less hours and we're working too much has been the conversation.
What is the solution?
The solution is the boundary.
I cannot do blank. often will say, well, why would you invite me?
I can't understand why you would want me to come there.
You know that I'm really busy and blah, blah, blah.
We still haven't said we're not coming.
They still don't know.
So how do we get to the point without giving all of this information?
And we do it.
I know why we do it.
We want people to understand.
We want them to persuade.
We want to persuade them to think like us about this boundary.
We want them to be okay with us saying no, or okay with us being in disagreement or wanting something different.
And unfortunately, people won't always get that.
You can say the boundary with a smile.
You can dress it up.
You can do whatever you want to.
And there are things that you will say that will unintentionally hurt other people.
A no can be the worst thing that someone can hear.
It can be.
No, I don't think kids like no.
I don't think adults like no.
We all want a yes all the time.
I want an all the time yes.
Yes, yes, I'll help you.
Yes, there are times when we hear no and we have to allow people to say no to us because they have boundaries.
And people aren't always available to us and we are not always available to them.
So the biggest challenge that I see is this approval seeking with our boundaries.
If people don't agree with my boundary, should I even have the boundary?
The answer is probably yes.
Yes.
If it's a healthy boundary, I will say you should still have it, even if the other person is wanting to have their way with you.
Maybe even more so at that point, right?
So I'm thinking about the language as you're sharing that.
My mind was thinking, okay, so how would I try and clearly establish a boundary?
And it was in reference especially to your thought that most boundaries can be clearly established, very likely in literally one or two sentences, and then you're just done.
And I was wondering what those one or two sentences are in my mind.
I'm really curious how you think about this, and I'd love to learn from you.
In my mind, it's almost like sentence one is, here is my boundary, and sentence two is, this is why it's important to me.
Does that feel healthy to you or unhealthy?
How would you approach that in a very practical way?
I think that's a healthy way to do it, to say here is my boundary and this is why it's important to me.
Sometimes we just need to say here is my boundary, depending on the person we're talking to, because the reason it's important to you might be a point of defensiveness, or it may be a place for them to initiate an argument.
And we don't want boundary setting to turn into arguments.
And sometimes with explaining yourself, By giving people context, feeling and all of these things, they are able to talk you out of your boundary, convince you that you don't need them, or violate the boundary and tell you that the the boundary isn't even important.
They will violate that emotional space and say, well, why would you think that way about this?
You know, what if you could do this instead?
And now not only did your boundary go out the window, they violated a whole new boundary.
And so being careful about how you communicate things to people is a wonderful way to protect yourself from further boundary violations.
Because there are some people we can say things and they just get it.
They care.
They understand.
And there are others who have created such egregious boundary violations that, even saying something that would make sense to a thousand people, they will fight you about it.
Hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, I would imagine even if you said like here's my boundary, here's why it's important to me, there will be some people who will say oh, but it shouldn't be important to you.
That's not a valid reason.
They'll literally reject your own personal experience and they'll reject why something matters to you.
And I would imagine trying to argue that it shouldn't matter to you, that it shouldn't be important to you.
And And then you get into the whole back and forth of defending it.
So I almost wonder whether you even drop that second thing and just say, here it is.
And simply, this matters to me.
So I'm going to stand by it.
I like going with the one sentence.
Sometimes two, maybe.
But I love the one sentence because it really lets people know what you feel about something.
I think about a party invite.
And if you don't want to go to a party, the best option is no, no thank you.
Thanks for inviting me, but I won't be able to attend.
When we say things like, no, I can't go because I have to pick my auntie up from the airport.
People will figure out 15 ways for you to pick your auntie up from the airport and come to their party.
The real reason you don't want to go is because you don't want to go.
And it's okay to say, I won't be able to make it.
Yeah, just succinct like that.
And yet so many of us feel so uncomfortable just being direct like that.
And I think it goes back to what you were talking about before is that We're trying to take care of the other person.
At the same time, we're trying to establish our boundaries.
And also, I think so many of us are not comfortable with the notion that oh, if I do this, this will lead to conflict and I don't want to have to deal with conflict.
So I'll just back away from it rather than just being clear and standing with it.
That I would imagine comes up in another scenario.
That has got to be really hard.
And I would imagine, especially now, because people are sort of being housed together in really intense ways.
When a person who, when you establish a boundary, And then a person or a group of people sometimes maybe it's a family member refuses to respect that boundary.
And yet, at the same time, maybe it's a parent, maybe it's a sibling, maybe it's a cousin who you're not going to walk away from them.
Like family is family and that's important to you.
So this is not someone who can easily.
If you establish your boundaries and you make it clear that and you show that it's important, and they repeatedly overstep them, they don't honor them and yet they are a part of the family that you're not going to walk away from.
Do you have thoughts on how to navigate that in a way that would be as comfortable as possible?
Repeating a boundary is very helpful over and over.
It's almost like A parent repeating to a child, have you brushed your teeth?
Go brush your teeth.
Go brush it.
I bet parents probably say that thousands of times.
Put your shoes on.
Put your get your shirt off the floor.
I mean, the way that you have to repeat that.
And then, 20 years later, you visit your kid and you realize, oh my gosh, their shirts aren't on the floor.
Perhaps we need to repeat more often and move away from the idea that saying it once is enough.
We're trying to change the relationship.
And sometimes that change requires patience and practice.
When we aren't ready to leave.
That doesn't mean that we should give up on our boundary, but that we need to lean more into repeating the boundary and really honoring it for ourselves.
There are a lot of violations that occur that we are accepting.
What is your consequence if this boundary is violated?
If you say hey, I understand you want me to babysit for you, but I need a heads up, maybe a day or so before.
And this family member keeps just, hey, I have to drop my kids off.
Hey, I have to drop my kids off.
What is the consequence of that behavior?
Do you say yes every time?
Who's violating the boundary there?
I would say you because you have the power in that situation with this family member.
You don't want to cut off to say, no, I won't do it today.
I have something else going on.
They don't have to know what your something else is.
You could be watching Curb Your Enthusiasm.
That's not their business.
But yes.
No, not today.
So how do you uphold this boundary that you set with this person?
That is the new work.
They won't listen to you.
They won't honor it.
How do you uphold the boundaries that they won't honor?
The last boundary that's popping into my head right now.
We've been talking a lot about boundaries between you and other people, whether it's a family member, a friend, a team at work, a boss.
Then there's the boundaries, and you write about this with yourself.
And I think this gets provoked most often with technology and social media these days.
It's sort of like, okay, so I literally have to stop myself.
I have to set limits for myself.
It's like an internal boundary where I'm actually so compelled to do this thing which, if I do it in a certain way or for a certain amount of time, can be really destructive to my mental health.
And yet I keep doing it.
So it's like an internal boundary that we literally have to make this contract with ourselves.
We have to honor our own boundaries.
And so often we look at other systems.
When I think about financial issues, we get really upset at the credit card company.
Why are they charging us a high fee?
Why are they doing this?
And it's like, It is us using the card.
It is us downloading the app.
It is us doing these things.
Now, of course, there could be safer practices with any of these things.
But how do we manage ourselves and not put everything on the systems to keep us in check with ourselves?
Because there are things that can get out of hand and the systems aren't even aware until there's some report that comes out that oh, this thing is causing this.
Well, we know that, we felt that.
How do we step away from things when it's starting to disturb who we are?
Now with social media, we know that you get a a hit of dopamine when you get a like and all of these sort of things.
So it's very strategic.
However, I wonder if we could just go back to a time when we didn't even use it and we were okay with life.
How do we put ourselves back in that space?
I was talking to someone the other day and I remember there was a time when you used to leave your home without a cell phone.
Oh, Can you imagine such a thing?
I was listening to Will Smith's book and he was talking about having to wait on a phone call.
Be at home to wait on it.
There was no cell phone.
If you miss that call, you just had to wait for the person to call again.
There was no caller ID.
There was no cell.
It wasn't this constant connection.
How do we say I can still be that even in a world with blank?
I can still use cash even in a world with access to this.
I'm not advocating for don't use credit cards.
I like them.
But if we have a problem with something, how do we set boundaries with ourselves to practice so we're having the experience that we want?
Yeah, I feel like that's almost the ultimate frontier.
Oh, yeah.
In the land of boundaries and maybe the most challenging.
It's fine.
As a writer, you know.
It's interesting because the way that I actually do my work is I'm on a device which also is the exact same device that, like I see the little things on it.
I'm like, Ooh, there's a notification here.
There's a notification there.
Like, Who just checked in and stuff like that.
And I've learned that, just like you described, there is a cycle of dopamine and then technology that uses intermittent reinforcement that creates almost an addictive behavior pattern.
And for me I literally will, because I know myself and I know the way that I create boundaries is to literally enable programs that turn off all other connectivity.
To ensure that I literally have to.
I use technology against technology to enforce my own boundaries.
Yeah, you have to outsmart yourself.
When I'm writing, I turn my phone off right now as we're talking.
I have my focus on one.
So I'm not getting the ping to say new text message, new email, because out of sight, out of mind.
I'll make sure my writing space is full screen.
So I'm not even tempted by all of the bars at the top.
So there are a lot of boundaries that I have to set in place for myself to do the things that I want or need to do.
Yeah, I love that.
It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well, since we've come all the way back to our own ability to navigate our own boundaries, personally and as well as interpersonally.
So, as we have this conversation, in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
To live a good life, you have to create it.
I think of inventing what you want to see in your life, not holding other people accountable for providing it, but accepting ownership of creating what you want to have.
Thank you.
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
So I love Nedra's take on boundaries.
I am so excited to compliment her lens with more deep insights and observations from Terry Cole.
So before earning a master's degree in clinical psychotherapy from NYU, Terry ran a talent agency for actors and supermodels.
She was your typical type A overachiever, zero balance, no internal peace, driven by ambition, living on planes and serving as a business executive, confidant advisor, surrogate parental figure and bounding between nearly every role with every person imaginable.
She began to realize every part of work and life was bleeding into every other part of work and life.
And the net effect was that everything was bleeding out.
So something had to change.
We'll be right back.
What she learned in the trenches with her high profile clients informed, and really continues to inspire the work she does today.
And she's been on a mission.
Her Dharma she shares is teaching women how to attract and sustain healthy, vibrant, real love into their lives and establish and maintain effective boundaries with ease and grace.
And that latter part she's come to believe is at the heart of so much interpersonal struggle and is perpetually at the center of nearly every therapeutic engagement.
So she figured it was time to share what she's learned in her book Boundary Boss the essential guide to talk true, be seen and finally live free.
Here's Terry.
You make a statement sort of early on in your book that effectively says without great boundaries you cannot live a great life.
That is a bold statement.
Tell me more about that.
Well, it's true.
I mean, two and a half decades in the trenches with my therapy clients.
I can see what disordered boundaries, and I think we should establish what that means, right?
What are boundaries?
It is you knowing, prioritizing and communicating your preferences, your desires, your limits and your deal breakers in your life to all the people.
That's in a professional setting.
And of course, they'll be different.
The way you would do it with a boss is different than a lover.
It's different than a subordinate, but it is the act of being able to succinctly and effectively communicate who you are, what you stand for, what you want, what you won't stand for, what your limits are.
To me, that is what being fluent in the language of boundaries requires.
So if you cannot do that and the reason I wrote a book is because most of my practice is um super high-functioning women
And I would see the same thing over and over, meaning the presenting problem would be different.
Addicted person in their life, family of origin is a shit show.
Whatever the thing is, everyone had a different reason.
The thing that got them through the door and onto my couch was different.
But then when I start unraveling, it would all come back to, in one form or another, the inability to communicate, establish and uphold healthy boundaries in their lives.
So I was like, this is literally a phenomenon that is not unique to these women.
And then I started teaching this in the world.
And then I have women from 120 different countries in a boundary course that I created because there was such a demand for it.
And the pain points were the same.
So I was like, there's a need for someone to teach this as an actual language.
You know, Jonathan, it's not just my clients.
We all.
We teach what we most need to learn, like 992 of the time where I was raised, like so many women, to be a good girl.
I was raised to be nice and to have niceness be like.
The top virtue that you could ever aspire to is for people to think that you're nice.
And so what does this lead to?
This leads to us saying yes when we want to say no over giving, over feeling, over committing, over functioning.
All under the umbrella the hope of being kind and being nice.
And yet let's really break it down.
Is it actually nice to say yes when you want to say no?
It's dishonest.
It isn't nice.
And then what happens is we are literally giving corrupted intel, bad data, to the people in our lives.
We feel empty.
We feel unseen.
We feel unknown because we are unseen, and unknown if we're not talking true, and here's what stops most people from doing this.
They don't have the words.
They fear.
They have all of these myths around.
What does it mean to be a woman in particular with healthy boundaries?
People equate healthy with harsh, like healthy boundaries with having harshness, being bitchy, rejecting going out and confronting everyone.
I'm going to punch everyone in the face with my boundaries.
You're not.
And that's not what it means, right?
So I don't look at boundaries like weak and strong because that's not how they are.
It's are they functional or dysfunctional, right?
Do they accomplish the thing that we want them to accomplish, which might be deepening intimacy in our relationships, might be protecting ourselves right?
So really getting it out of the right boundaries and wrong boundaries or weak and strong boundaries.
I don't look at them that way because literally that isn't the way they are, because dysfunctional boundaries come in.
I actually have a thing, a boundary quiz that's out.
It's just called boundaryquiz.com where you could learn like what is your primary boundary type?
And there are six, really seven, if you include, like healthy boundaries, where disordered boundaries, you could be the ice queen, which is someone whose boundaries are too rigid where people don't agree with you.
You're kind of like F you and I'm going to do it myself or I'll do it my.
You know, if it's not my way, then get out right.
Those are too rigid.
Or you could be the chameleon, where you're very impacted by what others want, And so when I'm with you Jonathan, if you like that, then I'm like that too.
And if I'm with someone else, then I can go with that.
That's a disordered boundary style.
If you are the peacekeeper, you're very dialed into not wanting there to be conflict.
And not just in your relationships.
You don't want there to be conflict anywhere around you.
You're always sort of looking to be like, hmm, where can I de-escalate what?
All of those disordered boundary styles.
And it doesn't mean you have to be like that all the time to have that still be primary when you're out of balance, right.
When we're stressed, because it's kind of easy-ish to have okay boundaries when life is easy.
It really gets revealed when we're under a lot of pressure.
But you can, of course.
I wrote a whole book about how to learn how to do it and stay balanced in it.
Each of us has a downloaded boundary blueprint.
I call it, which is you know, this is in your unconscious mind.
So this is the paradigm that we go out into the world and we think this is the way the world is like.
Put quotes around that right.
This is the way relationships are.
This is the way I should interact with these people or those people.
And we didn't need our parents or classmates parental impactors, as I call them because they might not have been parents per se, but the adults in our life.
They didn't need to be like.
This is the way it is.
This is modeled behavior that we learn.
And so we're impacted by that, right?
Let's just say you had a parent who was a pushover.
Like that was their primary boundary style saying yes when they really want to say no, always like bitching and complaining about how entitled neighbor Betty is.
How about just saying no to Betty, but that wasn't a possibility, right?
But Betty, what a jerk she is.
You know, which can also happen when we're not doing our own boundary thing.
We just cannot believe how entitled people are.
And you're like, why are you surprised?
People are going to ask you to do the most ridiculous things and you can get really mad, or you can, And it's so much easier just to learn to say no.
But anyway, your family of origin, just like my family of origin.
There was a particular way that you interacted.
It might've been in an enmeshed way where like, everyone knew what was going on with everyone else and everyone was talking about everyone else's business, or it might've been more separate right.
Those are boundary things.
How close, how far away, how your family interacted with the rest of the world.
Some families are open systems.
That was my family, where friends can come and go.
The door is open.
Friends can sleep over.
There's movement.
Some families are closed systems.
Nobody comes in and out, just the family.
There is more of a distrust for the outside world.
And that impacts what we think is appropriate to share with other people.
The way that we share that information, and that is an emotional boundary issue.
You see how it's all sort of connected?
Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
The idea of a bit of a boundary blueprint using your language makes a lot of sense too, right?
Because I think we all have, whether it's our family of origin, whether it's our chosen family, whether it's the circumstances of our lives when we're coming up.
It leaves this imprint on us which eventually becomes this blueprint as you describe it.
There's a line in the book where you write when you were a kid, your home was effectively a perfect storm of covert communication and emotional dysfunction.
Which followed you.
As a young adult, your boundaries become protecting yourself sarcasm, manipulating people and eventually substance, to sort of cope with this.
And you roll into a young adult.
You're out in the working world performing, like you said, at a really high level.
And then you change careers and you're running a modeling agency and you're out there doing big deals.
And from the outside looking in.
I think the tendency for so many people is to say Well, that person has to be really well-adjusted and have healthy boundaries, because they seem to be functioning in such an extraordinary level at work and life.
And yet even for you and I guess that's a big part of why you do what you do now it was the exact opposite.
It's funny, the illusion that being driven, right?
So part of the story in the book is that I was so driven to succeed in And I just thought I'm just ambitious.
That's all, nothing.
And then, of course, a bunch of therapy.
Later you're like oh, I'm trying to prove to my father that I was not the wrong gender, because I felt like he wanted a boy and I was his fourth daughter, and blah blah, blah.
So you start to look at your own motivation, of course.
And when I started, that's when things started shifting of.
Oh, I'm being driven by fear of unworthiness.
I'm being driven to prove something.
So keep in mind the external world, right?
Success looks like success, whether it's driven by pain blood sweat tears, whether it's driven by joy, inspiration being energized to the outside world.
It just looks like wow, you were running a talent agency at the you know in your early thirties.
That's amazing.
But at what cost?
And I think that This is something that you bring up a great point of like what it looks like.
And I say, don't make any assumptions.
And I don't make assumptions about people, because all of my, so many of my private clients have been these incredibly high functioning women who are so capable.
And in fact, in the book, I talk about the codependency connection to disordered boundaries.
And that over the years, I mean, I struggled with this myself, codependency.
We'll talk a little bit about what it is.
So because I think there's a lot of different ideas and there's a lot of wrong ideas about what it is.
So if you look at with my clients, I was seeing this behavior with them, codependency.
But anytime I would say the word codependent, they'd be like, what?
Crazy.
Hello, everyone's dependent on me.
I'm the one who's getting shit done.
What are you talking about?
Like, what do you mean?
Like the Melody Beatty codependent.
No more idea that codependency is only you being involved with an addict and covering for them when their boss calls right.
Like, It's not that that is not the codependency that that I've seen.
And so I actually came up with a new terminology called the high functioning codependency, because your boundaries are still disordered and it's still dysfunctional.
But it's very hard to see the same way that you were like oh, we look at success and people are like you must be crushing it and super happy.
This is very much the same.
So think of highly capable human beings who, it's almost like you know, Ginger Rogers was doing everything Fred Astaire was doing, except she was doing it backwards and in heels.
That's like.
These women in my practice are so high functioning that they actually are getting it all done, but they are getting it all done at the expense of themselves and their mental health and their wellness.
And, from my perspective, high functioning codependency and codependency itself is being overly invested in the feeling states, the decisions, the outcomes of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace or your own life experience.
So, because I know you've got to be very careful with your words, because I've had so many people say what's wrong with caring about the people that I love.
I'm like, hello, I'm not saying don't care.
I'm saying to the detriment that when something happens to someone you love and if they're not a minor child but I'm obviously not talking about minor children If it feels like it's happening to you and I know that's what it feels like because I am a recovering, high-functioning codependent where the urgency to do something to fix, to come up with a solution for that person my sister, my cousin, the person I love is so great that everything else is going away until I can figure that out.
That's codependency, because when you think about what codependency really is, it is overt and covert bids for control.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And control, very often to the demise of you, your lifestyle, your happiness, your health, let alone the fact that it is one of those words which is a proxy for security, which is a proxy for certainty which can never be had.
So it's like the ultimate form of suffering.
It is.
Yeah.
I mean that also really feels like it ties in with this concept that you share around I guess it's almost at the blueprint level too of the notion of secondary gain.
Deconstruct a little bit more of this notion of secondary gain, because I think it's really fascinating.
Yeah, I do too.
This is a notion.
A lot of times I teach about it and say how to get unstuck right, that we don't understand why we're stuck in certain behaviors our own behavior or we're in repeated situations in relationships, or we say we really want to do this thing, but then somehow we just can't manage to do this thing.
And secondary gain is the unobvious gain from staying stuck somewhere, right?
So it's not primary gain.
It is the hidden gain, benefit or relief or something that you don't even know you're getting from it.
Because obviously none of us consciously wants to stay stuck in a frustrating cycle of whatever.
The questions that we ask to reveal secondary gain that you say.
What do I get to not feel, not face or not experience by staying stuck here?
You know, I had a client who, you know, claimed all she wanted was to be in a relationship.
Like she really wanted a good relationship.
And then she put the stipulation on she was going to get back in the dating pool when she lost 10 pounds.
I kept being like, you're just no, I don't see why that needs to be there.
Like you're great.
And why, but you know, as therapists, you, You know, you think that.
You go, okay, well, something's happening here.
Let's just let this thing play out.
And then finally, and she couldn't do it.
Every week, then what we would focus on is how she fell off the wagon and then she ate carbs, even though she wasn't going to.
And she did this thing and that thing, and how she's failing failing, failing with the losing, the 10 pounds.
And so finally, I was like, why don't we go at this from a secondary gain point of view?
What do you get to not face, not feel, not experience?
Bye. not losing the 10 pounds.
And now you don't need to be a therapist to know what those things were.
I don't have to be rejected.
I don't have to be vulnerable in a real way.
I don't have to get into a relationship, even though I want to and feel like I don't have the skills to maintain health.
There was a whole myriad of things.
And of course you know, miraculously or not, once we unpacked all of those things Seriously, she didn't need to lose.
She lost two pounds.
I was like, I'm going back on the apps right now.
I was like, exactly.
Because you didn't even need to lose any weight to begin with.
So there's something valuable about going huh, there is something in this for me, without blaming right.
Without being like, why am I like that?
Or what's wrong with me?
It's just having a deeper understanding of the way that our minds work.
And that's a lot of what my goal was with this book was to make these concepts accessible, because people are smart.
I don't think you need to be in a therapist's office for 20 years.
Hey, I love it.
I haven't been a therapist for 30 years.
It's my fave, but that's me, right?
That's a choice.
I really believe that the reason I wrote this book is that I believe that people are smart and they just need a guide.
They just need powerful questions.
They just need like I'm nobody's guru not in this book and not anywhere but I'm a damn good GPS to get people to the answers that they have within them.
They just don't know how to get to the basement.
And so that's really what the book is.
It's a book and a sort of a workbook all in one.
There's a whole bunch of things.
Like when you think about boundaries for as long as I have it's like you suddenly see them not everywhere, but kind of everywhere.
And what is functional and what is dysfunctional, right?
What is healthy and what isn't healthy?
And again, I always say this when people are like you know, they want to dispute the thing, like well, I do this and I'm happy.
Then there's literally no problem.
This book is about.
If you are in pain, if you do not feel seen, if it is difficult for you to talk true, if it's difficult for you to set a limit and prioritize your own needs preferences, desires.
There's a zillion and five ways that I teach you in this book how to do it.
It's like a step-by-step process.
Step one, until you literally are a boundary boss.
That's exactly what we're doing in the book.
But I also don't think that everyone wants... what I want and my judgment.
I say that like, and it sounds like I'm kidding, but actually I really mean it.
Like I have no judgment for anyone who says I'm happy and satisfied with my life.
I don't want to be seen.
That is your right, honestly.
But if you have any of the things that Jonathan and I have talked about, then that's who this book is for, you know.
Yeah.
You wrap up the work in this book with language, which I thought was fascinating.
I think as we come full circle, everything that we're talking about here is a process.
And One of the big fears in any context is, okay, so now I get it.
Now I think I see myself a little bit more clearly and I see the nature of the dynamic between me and XYZ person, community world, whatever it may be.
But I don't have the language to understand how to even begin to address it.
So I was fascinated that you actually devoted a whole chunk of the last part of the book to literal verbatim scripts.
Yep.
I was just kind of curious why that was so important to you.
Because one thing that I've heard tens of thousands of times is I was going to say something and I didn't have the words.
And so what I started doing in my therapy practice years ago is I'd created these sentence starters when someone needed to make a simple request, or someone needed to set a limit, or just to make it easy to share your preference, whatever the situation was.
So each client would be like, oh, I don't even know.
So in the beginning, I would do it for each person.
And then you start being like all right, I'm going to put them in one place and just keep handing out my little paper.
And then I realized, as time went on, that there are many schools of thought And there are many different problem-solving strategies and techniques that like, I'm not the only person sort of doing this, but also that there's a way for you, there's something for you to say in every situation.
So actually, I go through the process of naming like a billion different scenarios in the book.
And what are one or two things that you might say?
Like, what are one or two things you might say to someone who incessantly interrupts when you're talking, right?
What are one or two things you might say for someone who is asking you an intrusive question about something that's none of their effing business?
Now, maybe it's Aunt Betty.
It's like we don't want to be like too mean about it, but how do we?
What is a strategy to not punch Aunt Betty in the face but to not answer a question that we don't want to answer?
So, Yes.
Language.
We all need it.
Including every single person I've ever met and I'm raising my hand right here.
I just found it.
I found it really.
I'm somebody who obsesses over language and I found it really interesting for me to sort of like and I also as a general rule I kind of don't like it when other people give me language and prompts but I found it.
It was really interesting because as I was reading through some of the prompts, I was like
Okay, so one, just like over ego for a hot minute and see the value of this.
And I was like, oh, this would have been so valuable then.
And like that conversation.
Oh, I wish I had like these five words to just understand how to ease into it in a more graceful way.
Or even like maybe that would actually give me the courage to even say something where I normally would have just backed away.
So it was interesting.
I was...
I thought it was incredibly valuable, but I was also.
It was interesting for me to sort of observe my own response to the prompts, but which was super cool.
It's funny.
I'm the same though.
I actually normally don't love it.
And yet when you know, in that part of the book I always say listen, you know, I will always give you a funny way to do something too, because humor is such.
It's such a thing for me.
Like I diffuse situations with humor and I feel like sometimes I can just say something if your co-worker's like so wait, I heard you got a raise.
How much money are you making?
And being able to just say, oh, trust me, Bob, not half what I'm worth.
You're just not answering the question.
And every single.
Either it's a sentence, stem or a whole entire thing.
It's literally just a framework for you to go.
Okay, maybe I would say it this way or I would switch out this word, but it gives you somewhere to start.
Yeah, no, I love that.
It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well.
So hanging out in this container of good life project.
If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
Honestly, means to talk true, be seen and live free.
To me, that's what it means.
Thank you.
So it lands right in your feed.
Thank you so much for having me do me a personal favor.
A seven second favor share it with just one person.
I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
