it's easy to get stressed it's easy to get overwhelmed when you're sensitive i'm not saying you shouldn't try to fix those things that you that you struggle with but...
so ever felt misunderstood or overwhelmed by the intensity of the world around you today best -selling author of the book sensitivity jen granneman reveals how embracing your sensitivity can transform it from a perceived weakness into your greatest strength sensitive people feel the stress and the pain and the joy and the beauty of the world, usually in a pretty intense way because they're picking up so much. It feels like we live in a world that's not really built for sensitive people and often we'll even tend to judge it.
It's hard to be a sensitive person in this world.
It's hard, right? We see people struggling.
We see stress, pain, heartache.
When I use the word sensitive I'm talking about it as a personality trait.
Does that mean you look at it is something that is changeable or not.
Oh, great question.
Well? They say opposites attract.
That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples.
You can each choose what's right for you, whenever you like.
You like a bed that feels firm but they want soft?
Sleep Number does that.
You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm?
Sleep Number does that too.
Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed?
so you can choose your ideal comfort on either side.
Sleep Number SmartBeds start at $999.
Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii, exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you.
See store or sleepnumber .com for details.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.
Just ask the Capital One bank guy.
It's pretty much all he talks about.
In a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too.
Ah, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank guy.
What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. See capitalone .com slash bank.
Capital One NA Member FDIC.
Good Light Project is sponsored by Wonderful Pistachios.
I am always looking for super yummy snacks that are packed with nutrients, especially protein, and I've been thinking about how those small daily choices add up to helping you feel your best. That is why I am a long time fan of wonderful pistachios.
Each 1 -ounce serving packs six grams of protein.
That's over 10 % of your daily value you're making it one of the highest protein nuts out there.
Plus they bring this perfect combination of protein and fiber and better for you unsaturated fats that help keep me feeling fuller longer.
And what really cooks for me is also how they just kind of fit into any moment.
Whether you're deep in creative work or sharing stores with friends or or outside, I often take these in my pack when I'm hiking.
If you're looking, just for grab and go ease, they're no -shells varieties, give you all that nutrient rich goodness without missing a beat.
And come on, they just taste amazing.
So if you're ready to elevate your snacking, visit wonderfulpistachios .com to learn more.
As we sit here having this conversation, I'm raising my hand as somebody who has identified as being introverted for my entire adult life.
And after a conversation with Elaine Aron a couple of years back, I also started probably identifying as somebody who was highly sensitive, which I didn't really key in on earlier in life.
She helped me tease out the distinction between high sensation, which actually do like and actually being sensitive.
So I've been so curious just about this whole area of exploration, because it helps, I think, so many people move through the world and understand themselves better and understand how to feel better and live better.
I would love to sort of dive in by really understanding, you know, like so much of your is focused around this word of sensitivity.
When we use that word in conversation, when you use that word, what do you mean?
Yeah, and I'll just first say there are a lot of us out there, a lot of us introverts and sensitive people.
So when I use the word sensitive, I'm talking about someone who picks up more information from their surroundings and sometimes even from their own body.
So we have a lot of different uses for the word sensitive.
Sensitive can be an embarrassing topic.
Sensitive can be, you know, kind of a feminine sounding word. People sometimes use sensitive to mean you're overreacting or you need to just get over it and tough enough.
When I use the word sensitive, I'm talking about it as a personality trait.
Mmm, so if you define it as a trait rather than a state, does that mean you look at it as something that is changeable or not?
Oh, great question.
Well, a lot of the research shows that it's not something that's changeable.
Our personalities are pretty much inborn.
Our genes influence them.
Our upbringing influences them.
But you know, that can sound kind of scary to people.
Like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be like this for the rest of my life, right?
A lot of times, we think about the challenges associated with sensitivity or introversion or any other personality trait.
So we're born with a certain temperament, a certain way we approach the world.
But that doesn't mean we can't grow and change.
In fact, most of us do.
Most of us do grow and change, and usually for the better as we get older.
So if somebody is listening to this or watching it, and they're kind of thinking to themselves, OK, how do we know if this is me?
What are some of the signposts that we might look for to start to figure this out?
Right, so there's a lot of things we can look for.
Let's say that you are a sensitive person.
You might be the one who notices that there's just just a slightly different shade of blue in a painting.
Maybe you're the person who notices subtle cues from someone.
There's just a flash of expression on your co -worker's face and then it's gone.
You know, those micro expressions they happen so fast, but a sensitive person notices them.
And that isn't to say that people who are less sensitive don't notice colors or don't notice expressions, right?
But sensitive people are often the ones who are very tuned into their environment.
They're often very tuned into the people around them.
they're often very tuned into their own bodies.
And they notice those things that other people don't notice.
If you're a sensitive person, you might also have a lot of empathy.
You might have a strong emotional side.
You might be really creative.
A lot of sensitive people are really creative and you know, not necessarily just making a painting or writing poetry or something like that, right?
There are so many ways that creativity shows up.
Maybe it's thinking of a solution to a problem at work that other people didn't think of.
Sensitive people tend to feel the world intensely.
I mean, we all go through life feeling things.
I'm not saying that other people don't have emotions or don't have reactions, but sensitive people feel the stress and the pain and the joy and the beauty of the world, usually in a pretty intense light because they're picking up so much. When you start to sense this about yourself and you're moving through the world.
I mean, I think one of the things that a lot of folks who would identify in some way as being very sensitive is this feeling that the world isn't actually built for you.
You know, like the ideal kind of, like, makes you feel like, not only is, like, the way that we move through the world, it doesn't seem to accommodate the way that you function, but also it may even go further than that and say, like, this is actually a problem to be fixed.
So take me into this a bit more.
Right. When I was writing my book, people would ask me, what's your book about?
I'd say highly sensitive people.
And it was just amazing, the different range of comments I got.
People would say, Oh, good.
You're going to show sensitive people how to toughen up and fix themselves.
It was like, nope, that's not, that's not what I'm saying here actually.
It's hard to be a sensitive person in this world.
It's hard, right? We see people struggling.
We see stress, pain, heartache.
We may even feel that way for people we don't even know well, strangers.
and you know, it's not just the news.
It's our work environments.
It's raising children.
It's having friendships and other types of relationships.
There's a lot going on every day, right?
And everybody feels that stress.
Everybody feels that pain sometimes, but sensitive people tend to hit that anxiety and that stress faster.
I mean, as you're describing it, this picture is coming to my mind of, I would imagine that, and I'm curious whether there's data on this that you're aware of that a lot of folks who wouldn't identify as being sensitive would also probably, then maybe I'm assuming incorrectly, but might be more drawn to sort of like creative pursuits or creative arts or art, and I'm picturing the classic art student who's in class and they're in what has become known as a crit where basically everyone has their workout for the day and the teacher goes around the room, I'm largely just eviscerating them.
And I've heard this from a number of friends who've been through different types of art programs. And the response that they get from the teacher is I need to toughen you up.
You're going into a really, really tough world.
If you want to go into this and do this, you can't be sensitive in that world.
And at the same time, I'm like, well, OK, I actually get that from a practical standpoint Because if you want to survive in a really hard, tough place to survive, you do probably need some skills.
But at the same time, isn't it that very sensitivity that probably becomes source fuel for your ability to create on the level where people just be like, wow, I want to participate in that?
Yeah, absolutely. And I could remember going through those critiques.
I did a writing degree.
My writing, you know, whether it was journalistic or creative, poetry, essays, whatever, it was all up for critique constantly.
So, yes, I know that pain well.
I think there's a difference between learning how to take feedback and criticism and feeling like you have to get rid of your sensitivity because, you're right, sensitivity, it's an amazing trait.
It helps us be creative.
when your brain is making more connections and seeing details that other people might miss.
Of course it's going to be more creative.
And you're right, a lot of artists, writers, other creative types tend to be sensitive people for a reason.
So where do we go with that?
And this is one of the things that you write actually about fairly early in your book, this notion of the toughness myth, that actually the appropriate reaction is to to toughen up.
Like that's the way if you want to quote succeed, in life and relationships and work and business that you do have to fix this.
So tease this out to me, because you just said, okay, so let's make a distinction between being able to take feedback, which is important and valuable, but also knowing that you need to stand in this part of yourself that is real and true.
Yeah, it's tough, right?
I think sensitive people tend to take things personally.
And of course, we all take things personally to some extent, But sensitive people might really see any kind of feedback or critique as a reflection on them and their character and their worth.
And it's not just some art critique, right?
It could be something your boss says.
It could be something your spouse or your friend says.
And sensitive people not only take things personally, but they're often turning those things over in their minds.
I mean, the sensitive brain processes things deeply.
That's a hallmark characteristic of the sensitive brain.
So not only are you thinking, oh my gosh, this is all about me, right, but it's also like, I'm still thinking about it.
I'm thinking about it all day.
I'm thinking about it as I go to sleep, maybe I can't sleep because I'm thinking about it.
But like you said, I think there's a way to not say, okay, I have to toughen up, right?
The toughness myth tells us we have to get rid of our sensitive side.
We have to put our emotions aside.
We have to push through any pain or discomfort.
we have to work harder, go further.
But I don't think we have to necessarily get rid of our sensitivity just to take a step back and look at what feedback is, right?
And learn how to take that feedback a little bit or just deal with anything else, right?
I'm broadening it a bit here, but you don't have to put your sensitivity aside to be able to succeed and thrive in your work, in your parenting, or whatever else you're doing.
Yeah. I'm curious, in your life and your experience, when yes, as you described, you went through a writing program where your work was being criticized on a regular basis, and that's part of the growth process.
You want the data from that.
That's how we get better, right?
It's like that's a good story or a bad story.
Give me the insight.
Is it totally off the rails?
Or is there something here to work with?
We want that, right?
So how do you step into that mode where you're like, OK, how can I find more ease?
How can I breathe more easily?
when I feel like maybe there's important information being conveyed to me, but the person or the container in which it's being conveyed I'm really struggling with, it's activating me.
Like are there skills or practices you found helpful in doing that dance so you can kinda breathe more easily and get the information you really want and need?
Right, yeah, because you're right, sometimes there is useful information that we wanna get.
I think it helps to try to take a step back, maybe pause the conversation if it's happening in real time, try to put some distance in between what they're saying and you.
Sometimes it helps me to do affirmations.
You know, to just say things out loud to myself or even think them in my head if I'm not in a place where I can speak them out loud.
You know, things like, "'These words are not a reflection of my worth." Or, "'This does not define me.'" or maybe you say to yourself, I'm still a creative person and I'm thriving whatever it is the situation you're going through.
I think it helps to sort of recognize when criticism is maybe personal and unfounded and unfair, right, because, you know, if somebody just walks up to you and Seriously, are you going to take this?
This is a person you don't even know.
This is obviously a personal attack designed to hurt your feelings.
So I think it helps to look at that criticism as, okay, where's the other person coming from?
Are they trying to hurt my feelings?
Are they trying to upset me?
Because there are people up there who do those sort of things.
But are they trying to do this from a place of love?
Are they trying to help me grow?
Are they trying to help me become a better writer or whatever it is, right?
So I think it can help to think about the person's motivation.
I think it can help too to think about how well do they know me?
Are they that stranger on the street who just walked up to me and insulted me?
Or is this someone who's known me for a really long time and has seen very intimate parts of my life or maybe knows my work really well if we're talking about a work situation?
And it can be hard to hear those things when your emotions are feeling really activated in the moment.
That's why I think it can be really helpful.
Like you said, take a step back, try to take a breather.
Whenever we're having some unhelpful thoughts, like, this person really doesn't like me, or I'm terrible, or whatever it is, right, we've got to evaluate those thoughts logically.
But first, we need to get the emotions to settle down and feel better before we can even take those logical steps.
Yeah. So hard. Really hard. It's so hard. I've been on that side many times throughout my entire life.
Me too. I'm really curious about something else that you said also, though.
which is, you mentioned that it's not unusual for somebody who is on the sensitive side to also get in their head a lot and to maybe sort of like spin with things once they're in there.
Are you aware of any research or data that actually connects sensitivity to different incidences of anxiety or OCD or depression or tendencies towards that?
You know, there is some research out there that says sensitive people tend to be more prone to anxiety and depression.
It's the same with introverts.
And, you know, that doesn't surprise me because we are in our heads.
We're thinking a lot about what's going on.
You know, that might sound like bad news, but it doesn't have to be, right?
I mean, people who aren't sensitive, people who are extroverts, they deal with anxiety and depression, too.
There are ways to deal with these challenges that we face.
I mean, personally, I deal with anxiety and depression.
I have my life and find ways to cope with them.
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
Good Life Project is sponsored by the podcast ADHD Aha, hosted by Laura Kee.
So you know those light bulb moments when something finally clicks.
That's what this show is all about.
Those powerful aha moments when people realise they or someone they love has ADHD.
What struck me about this podcast is how it illuminates ADHD in a way we don't usually talk about it through intimate conversations.
Laura's guests share stories about living with impulse spending, wrestling with decision making, and navigating social anxiety and listening to Jessica McCabe's episode about motherhood and ADHD medication opened my eyes to perspectives I'd never considered.
So whether ADHD is part of your story or not, these authentic narratives offer powerful insights that can shift how you see the world.
To listen to ADHD, aha, Search for ADHD, aha, in your podcast app.
That's ADHD, aha with aha spelled A -H -A.
Headlight Project is sponsored by Airbnb.
So we spent a little time in Chicago over the summer.
We've got family, friends, even part of our team there.
Walking into Francesca's vintage Chicago apartment, we were just instantly transported into this little corner of Paris.
The French doors, the vintage furniture and decor, you could tell, had a lot of love put into it and welcome basket that made us feel cared for it all felt magical.
As I sat there one morning leafing through her book on her sun -dried sofa it hit me, our homes could hold these incredible moments waiting to be shared.
It's fascinating how a space can tell a story.
And while I was discovering the charming Lincoln Square Cafes just a few minutes away, other travelers could be creating their own memories in my space back home.
That's what I love about the thought of hosting on AirBnB.
It's not just about having your home earned while you travel, It's about letting your space become part of someone else's journey.
Your home might be worth more than you think.
Find out how much at Airbnb .com slash host. The Good Life Project is sponsored by ProLon.
So you know those moments when you're ready to make a real shift in your health journey, but the thought of another complicated program just kind of feels overwhelming.
So here's something pretty cool.
ProLon's fast mimicking diet is a plant -based nutrition program that nourishes your body while making your cells believe they're fasting.
3 cycles can reduce your biological age score by an average of 2 and a half years.
So as someone who has researched and actually practiced fasting for years now, I was really thrilled when I discovered ProLon.
I have done their 5 day cycle a few times now over the last few years and I feel amazing throughout the experience.
They send you everything you need making it completely effortless.
So to help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, ProLon is offering Good Life project listeners 15 % off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five -day nutrition program.
Just visit prolonlife .com slash good life.
That's P -R -O -L -O -N -L -I -F -E .com slash good life to claim your 15 % discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife .com slash good life or click the link in the show notes.
You mentioned also you used the word introvert and I would imagine a lot of people would kind of be confused.
What's the difference here?
Like, is being sensitive the same thing as being introverted?
Is it different? Are they two parts of like a similar orientation?
Like, talk me through sort of like how we tease this out a little bit.
Yeah, that's a great question because I often, I write about both topics, so I often throw them together, right, but there are some big differences.
So, introversion is how you approach the social world, basically.
It's how you approach your relationships.
Are you someone who likes solitude or are you someone who likes lots of people time, right?
Sensitivity is how you approach the physical world around you, the environment around you.
Are you picking up lots of cues and lots of information from your world or are you kind of, you know, maybe missing some things?
The reason I often talk about them together is because a lot of sensitive people are introverts, so you can be both, right?
But you could also be a sensitive extrovert.
I know some sensitive extroverts, and they're just warm and gregarious and caring and thoughtful.
They love people, right?
I mean, I look at their lives, and they're always like, I'm talking to so and so, I'm going here, I'm doing this, and I'm like, I can't.
I can't keep that up.
But then they tend to sort of crash, right?
Because there's just so much that they're doing.
And even they, as sensitive people get overwhelmed too.
Sensitive introverts might be a little different, right?
their little, just live a quieter life, not going everywhere, not seeing everyone.
Happy to be at home.
Happy to, you know, have a night at home to themselves in their pajamas, watching their show, reading a book, things like that.
But yeah, I like to say that introverts are people who crave solitude, but a sensitive person doesn't necessarily crave that.
They might need it when they feel stressed or overwhelmed.
They might need that downtime to process their emotions and sort out their thoughts, but they're not necessarily someone who's like, oh, I just want to be home, reading my book tonight, I don't want to go hang out, right?
So it's a fine difference, I'm glad you asked.
Yeah, I mean it sounds like one is, they're both, they're levels of sensitivity.
One is more focused on sort of like social interaction and one is more broadly focused on just general input from the world, stimulation from all sources, which is why you could see there's probably fair amount of overlap there.
Yes. Yes. I mean you put a sensitive person at an introvert at a party and they may look similar, right?
They might look like, oh my gosh, this is a lot, especially if there's lots of noise.
If there are a lot of people, they might both have a similar reaction, but it's not necessarily coming from the same thing.
The introvert might feel overwhelmed by the actual socializing, right?
The talking, the listening, the sensitive person might I feel overwhelmed by the more general atmosphere.
Oh my gosh, loud music, strobing lights.
Not that I go to any parties with strobing lights anymore, but right.
All the noise and activity, plus the stuff going on from the people.
I think sensitive people often feel kind of inundated with cues from around them, people's cues.
Like, oh, I can tell that person's mad.
Or oof, I'm not sure how that person liked my comment.
You know, so they tend to be very tuned in to the people around them, almost to the point that it can become stressful.
So as you're describing that, these two scenarios pop into my head.
One is me now, where I tend to like much more chill scenarios.
Lessen, but I like to control the stimulation coming at me at any given moment.
And then, I'm flashing back to me in my early 20s in New York City in a club at 2 in the morning with thousands of people thronging around.
All the lights, all the music.
I was also a club DJ in college.
And I loved it. I absolutely got lost in it.
Like the louder, the better, the more lights, the better, the more stimulation, the more human beings around me, the better.
And so I'm wondering what's going on there.
Like is there a way to almost, or like when you have all that going on, that your brain can in some way like temporarily suspend yourself within that and almost create like your own private oasis within the context of this massive stimulation.
Gosh, I love that idea of creating your own private oasis.
Well I'd say maybe there's a few things going on.
First research shows that everybody gets a little more introverted as they get older, they slow down a little more.
If you're a sensitive person, you might find yourself becoming a little more sensitive to your environment.
It just happens as we get older.
But I think there's something else going on there too, which is that emotional energy.
If you are just loving what's going on, DJing, it sounds like that was a passion of yours.
That fun in a situation gives you energy and it gives you the ability to sort of cope with the annoying lights, the annoying crowds, things like that.
I have a three year old son, and he's actually a very sensitive person.
He's also a very social person, but he just gets excited about seeing turkeys.
We have turkeys that run through our neighborhood.
He gets so excited, there's that emotional energy that gives him the ability to overcome stressors around him, right?
And I think it's actually, I'm actually working on a conversation course for introverted, anxious, and shy people.
And I talk about drawing the fun out of a situation as a way to give you more energy and as a way to cope with some of the stressors in your environment.
to know that make sense I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest in that you're part of what was coming to me also as you're describing that is this notion of I wasn't actually interacting with any people in those circumstances oh no the DJ I was I was in my own little nearly like cocoon and even when I was on a dance floor you're like maybe I was there with a friend or two but we weren't I wasn't talking to like the thousand other people around me bumping into me I was in the physical space interacting with him but there was no a sense of me being like, like having to feel a need to actually interact
socially with them in any way, shape or form, you know, if anything, like for most people that would have been a little weird. So I wonder if that played a role in it also.
I bet it did you were in your own private places.
Yeah. I really enjoy going out in public and just doing my own thing, you know, like go to a movie on my own, go out to eat, just walk around a crowded park on my own.
It, you know, it sort of gives me a connection to other people, but I'm not actually having to make small talk with anyone.
Yeah, and I wonder if I'll say, you write about this metaphor of a bucket, I think that maybe that's helpful, and also sort of helping understand this when maybe there's a tipping point that we hit as well.
Take me into this a bit.
Yeah, absolutely. So the bucket metaphor comes from my book, Sensitive.
And it's this idea that we all have this bucket, this invisible bucket that we carry around with us.
And every piece of stimulation throughout the day gets added to this bucket.
and some of us have a bigger bucket, some of us have a smaller bucket, like sensitive people.
And eventually it just becomes too much. There's just too much in that bucket and it overflows.
And when the bucket overflows, we're going to feel emotionally dysregulated.
We'll feel stressed, overwhelmed, overstimulated.
Maybe even like angry, right?
And irritated. That happened as a parent of a toddler.
I can attest that that happens sometimes.
You know and so it's, yeah it does build up, right.
I've noticed in myself that if I'm, you know, just kind of at home for a few days, not really much is going on, I can go out into an environment where there's a lot going on.
And it takes, and I can do that for a time.
It doesn't, you know, I kind of have built up some space in my bucket right to have stimulation coming in.
But if it's just back to back stuff where my weekend is really busy.
It's, you know, I'm not loud public places.
There's, there's a lot going on with my friends or my just whatever if there's just a lot going on.
It's like, there's no space left in my bucket.
And it's just, it's just overflowing.
And and that that can get really hard. Yeah, it sounds like it would make sense then to like, if you know this about yourself, to really think about the way that you're going to step into high stimulation environments, and Yeah.
And almost like pre plan.
You know, it's like, what am I going to do to be okay to sort of like lower the level in my bucket intermittently?
So I don't, I don't tip into that place where things just get really hard. Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the best things that sensitive people can do is give themselves those breaks before they really need them.
Once you've hit full blown stress over simulation mode, it's going to take a lot of time and and more effort to bring your body down to bring your emotions down.
But if you can plan and prepare and give yourself those breaks and build downtime into things, that's going to stop your bucket from overflowing.
Right? It's easier to deal with a bucket that hasn't overflowed yet, or is maybe close to but a lot harder to deal with a bucket that's already spilling out.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Like, part of what I do is speak and have a lot of friends who are in the speaking industry also.
And what I've learned is that if I'm going somewhere and like I'm retained to give a keynote, so I'm on stage for an hour, it's not unusual for the organizer to say, hey, listen, we'd love you to stick around and like be like come to lunch with us, then come to dinner with us and then be in the conference or the event and make yourself available.
And part of me is like, that sounds like I would love to be able to do that.
And I also know that I can't.
Like if you want me to be my best when you're paying me to be my best, then I've got to really take care of myself.
And it's not that I don't want to be there.
And part of that is an introvert thing.
But part of it is also, it's just a general stimulation thing.
If you're at a massive event with all this noise and energy coming at you, and I've learned to say the hard no, which is not easy because you want to show up and give your all.
And I think sometimes you get judged in those contexts.
And I would imagine people listening have their own version of that, like in a work context.
Absolutely. Yeah, good for you.
Yeah, that's really tough.
I think we do have to set those boundaries and recognize what our limits are, right?
It's, it's okay to have limits.
It's okay to say no, it's okay to just need to do what works for you as an interpreter or sensitive person.
Okay, so that brings up one other curiosity here.
So using the speaking, sort of like an example, again, I'm also completely fine being on stage in front of thousands of people.
I mean, I was terrified in the beginning, but that was sort of like typical to most people.
Yeah. And having done it for many, many years now, I actually really enjoy it.
You know, I'm like, I don't freak out the size, the simulation and again, it's like, I'm wondering, is that one of those just like rare things where something like a switch gets flipped and I'm just like, I'm in my own private universe for that moment in time.
Even though in theory I'm in a room with thousands of people and lights and sound systems and all this stuff.
You know, I also think it has to do with that planning and preparation piece because a lot of introverts and sensitive people, when they have that time to mentally prepare, they do really well, right?
And it's also sort of like a structure that you can control, right?
Like, I know it's going to happen.
I'm going to walk up here.
I'm going to say this, and then I'm going to step down.
It's not somebody throwing a small talk question at you, where you have to think of something to say on the spot.
Both sensitive people and introverts tend to do well when there's a structure, they know it's going to happen, and they can prepare.
And of course, right, everybody does better on some level when they can prepare and have structure.
But if you're someone who's soaking up so much from the world around you, you need that even more.
Yeah, just something to kind of ground you, give you that.
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
So you mentioned earlier, you kind of rifled through a couple of what I would call sort of, like the bonuses, the gifts, the offering side of sensitivity.
And you write about the, I think it's five different gifts of sensitivity.
I'd love to walk through each of those and sort of tease them out a little bit more so I can understand, like, what is it?
How do they show up?
And how do we work with it?
Yeah, so the first one we mentioned already is empathy.
So sensitive people, they easily step into other people's shoes.
They easily see other people's perspectives.
And sometimes they do this so much that they are feeling other people's pain.
We all do this to some extent.
Humans are designed to pick up on the emotions of other people.
You know, that's how civilizations get built, right?
If we have somebody, a leader who inspires everyone to come together and build something, it's also how fear can ripple through communities because we're picking up on the feelings of other people.
But if you're sensitive, you're doing this even more because you're noticing those little cues.
You're noticing the way someone's eyes look, you're noticing that expression on their face that flashes and then is gone.
You're thinking about these things deeply, so you're picking up on those emotions, you're feeling those emotions deeply, and empathy can be painful, right?
If someone you care about is hurting, it's painful for you, right?
Let's not pretend that it's easy to feel that empathy.
Like, it's all so amazing, right?
I mean, wouldn't you say that empathy is something that we need more of right now, especially now, I mean, always, but especially right now.
Yeah. I mean, I completely agree.
I think the ability to actually stand in someone's shoes to really sort of like, not just understand or know or sympathize, but actually sort of like feel what they're feeling so you can truly understand it is incredibly important and powerful.
And at the same time as you described, isn't there a tipping point there also, where if you feel so much somebody else's experience, and that can include pain and suffering, then don't we tip into pain and suffering along with them, where it's not only good where we can show up and take care of them and feel for them and respond to them in a positive way, but we get basically sucked into the abyss alongside them.
Right, yeah, that's something that sensitive people have to manage, not getting sucked into the abyss with them.
One thing that's helped me is to remember that when I am sucked into that abyss, because I've been there, that's not helping anyone, right?
It's not actually helping the person who's hurting.
They need me to be able to see, you know, in some cases, stand strong for them, show up for them, physically help them, emotionally help them.
It's actually like making the suffering worse in a way, because I'm sucked down into my own suffering and I'm not able to be there for them.
A bunch of years back, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a neuroscientist and psychiatrist. And he made this distinction that I'd never heard before between what he called cognitive versus emotional empathy.
And the way he described it to me was cognitive is you kind of go there and you understand on a very deep visceral embodied layer, but you're not there with them so that you're capable of functioning and helping relieve their suffering and being with them, whereas He's like, you're basically feeling what they're feeling, which can be good up to a point like we described.
But then it just turns into two people going through something really hard and feeling terrible and probably having trouble taking action to feel differently.
So you can be a slippery slope.
Absolutely. Yeah. In my book, I talk about those different types of empathy.
I think it can help to put the spotlight on the other person, you know, instead of shifting this spotlight, which is your attention, or I should say instead of putting this spotlight on yourself and your own feelings for them and for the situation, it can help to just shift your focus onto that person.
What do they need? How can I help?" And, yeah, that does help us switch a little from emotional to cognitive empathy.
It's not easy though, right?
It's hard. And empathy, if you really look at it as the seat of compassion, you know, this becomes super power because it's sort of like it gives you source fuel to then activate the altruism side of compassion.
And then actually really be of service.
Yes, absolutely. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
Good Life Project is sponsored by Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist, recommended hair growth supplement brand that takes a whole body approach to healthier hair.
So when my wife Stephanie first started noticing changes in her hair during menopause, she discovered Nutrafol women's balance and five years later it's still the one supplement you won't skip.
And what makes Nutrafol unique is their comprehensive approach with specific formulas for different life stages, targeting root causes of thinning from stress and hormones to nutrition.
It's physician formulated with 100 % drug -free ingredients and the results speak for themselves noticeably fuller hair and dramatically less shedding.
So start your hair growth journey with Nutrafol.
For a limited time, Nutrafol is We're offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to NutraFoll .com and enter the promo code goodlife.
Find out why over 4 ,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend NutraFoll for healthier hair.
NutraFoll .com that's spelled NUTRAPOL .COM promo code goodlife.
That's NutraFoll .com or click the link in the show notes and use that promo code goodlife.
Your Life Project is sponsored by Noom.
So you know how frustrating it can be when weight loss programs treat everyone the same as if everyone is starting from identical places with identical needs.
That's what makes Noom so different.
They have created something that actually adapts to you, your psychology, your biology, your specific situation.
What's fascinating about Noom is how the blend science with real world flexibility.
The app helps you understand what drives your food choices, while still letting you enjoy the food you love.
No shame, no restrictions, just smart, sustainable changes that make sense for your life.
And it shows. Neume has helped more than 5 .2 million people develop healthier relationships with food through personalized support that meets you exactly where you are.
Stay focused on what's important to you with Neume's psychology and biology -based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom .com.
Good Life Project is sponsored by NetSuite by Oracle.
So in times like these with markets swinging wildly, inflation, bling peekaboo, wouldn't it be amazing to have a crystal ball for your business.
Well, we can't predict the future.
Over 41 ,000 businesses have found their path forward using NetSuite by Oracle.
Picture your entire business, accounting, inventory, HR, financial management, all flowing together in one unified platform.
And when you're closing your books in days instead of weeks and getting real -time insights, you're not just running a business, you're crafting its future.
And that's pretty much exactly what growing businesses need.
Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at NetSuite .com slash GoodLife.
The guide is free to you at NetSuite .com slash GoodLife.
NetSuite .com slash GoodLife.
Or just click the link in the show notes.
They say opposites attract.
That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples.
You can each choose what's right for you, whenever you like.
You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft?
Sleep Number does that.
You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm?
Sleep Number does that too.
Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed?
So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side.
Sleep Number Smart Beds start at $999.
Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii.
Exclusively, at a Sleep Number store near you.
See store or sleep number .com for details.
So empathy is one creativity is another one that you speak about.
Yes, we touched on that already.
If you're picking up details, if you're thinking about things deeply, you're going to be creative, right?
How can you not be creative if your brain is doing those things?
And again, it doesn't have to be painting a painting doesn't have to be composing music.
Maybe you're finding a solution to something that someone else hasn't found.
Maybe you're finding a way to work through conflicts in a relationship or with a team in a way that someone else can't do because you're thinking creatively and flexibly about things.
So yes, sensitive people, they do tend to be artists.
They do tend to be musicians, performers, writers and so on.
But they're also people not in those typical creative professions and using their creativity in different ways.
Yeah, and I'm glad you made that distinction also, because I do think so often, we're like, oh, are you a creative person?
Are you a creative type?
It's like, no, actually, like, you can be a mechanic, but access creativity, just come up with really cool novel solutions to problems, or a therapist, or a conductor, or whatever it is.
You don't have to be in these traditionally labeled creative professional fields.
It's like, no, it's just your ability to see things differently and then See how two things, you know, come together to form a third that didn't exist before, you know.
Yeah, absolutely. And that helps everyone, Yeah.
And a lot of sensitive people do tend to be therapists, teachers, caregiving roles, because we have that empathy and that's certainly a place that we can use our creativity too.
Yeah. All right. Sensory intelligence.
Oh yes. So this is that ability to pick up cues in your environment.
I mean, we're just talking to physical environment.
If you play sports, if you're in the military, if you're doing construction work, whatever, you need to be able to notice the way the light looks.
Hear that sound in the bushes.
Think about where the ball is going to be, five seconds from now, just based on the movements of the other people who are playing.
you know, again, this ties into creativity, because if you're noticing those details, well yeah, that's going to help you make a great painting or create a great sculpture, but it is so much more than that.
You know, it's the mom who is noticing something just being a little off about maybe something in their yard or something like that, you know, just noticing something off about a situation And then being able to course correct and take care of their kids.
It's a very powerful tool to be tuned into your environment.
So deeply. I would imagine, especially now when we have technology that is so powerfully tuning us out of our environment.
It's like, it's like your head is down in your palm 24 seven.
And like, if you have this capacity is really look up more readily and actually see what's going on.
I would imagine it just gives you all sorts of, I don't want to say advantages, but just benefits in the way you move through the world.
Depth of processing.
Yeah, so this is thinking deeply about things.
So you're picking up information.
You're picking up more details.
But you're also reflecting on it more.
And there's a difficult side to this, because maybe you end up overthinking.
you know, maybe you're lying awake at night thinking about that thing your coworker said.
That's hard, but again, we need people who are thinking deeply.
We need people who are taking the time to really think things through instead of just giving something a passing glance and moving on.
So if you're a sensitive person who's processing deeply, you are thinking about some problem after your coworkers have already gone home for the day and called it a night.
And again, that can be challenging.
But think about the solutions that you can come up with when you refuse not to give up on an idea or a problem.
And that brings us to depth of emotion, if I remember correctly.
Yes, so this is probably the most understood, most misunderstood gift of sensitivity because it's feeling emotions in a strong and intense way.
And of course, everybody, whether they're sensitive or not, feels strong emotion sometimes.
But sensitive people feel those things deeply.
Their brains are turning over that emotion.
Maybe their brains are chewing on that embarrassment or sadness or joy and happiness.
A lot of times we focus on those difficult emotions, but sensitive people feel joy, happiness, love, peace.
You know, they feel those intensely too, which is a wonderful gift. And isn't that what it means to be a human being?
To feel emotions and experience the richness of all that life has to offer.
It's interesting, all five of these, you can look at all of them and say, okay, I can see how this would be an incredible gift, incredible capability, like a superpower almost. Right.
And at the same time, each one of them, it's like the superhero thing, it's like every superhero also has a kryptonite.
Like, so each one of these five also can be kryptonite is sort of like expressed in a way which is unhealthy or dysfunctional or, you know, like overexpressed in a way.
Yes, absolutely. And that can be a challenge right it can if you're going through life, feeling things deeply not being able to regulate those feelings.
If you're noticing things all the time, if you're thinking about things to the point of exhaustion and stress, yeah, that can be really tough and you probably need to find some ways to cope with that, which is possible.
I always like to remind people that it is possible because a lot of people say, uh, this is really hard, it's really hard to be a sensitive person.
And it is, right? It's hard to be a human being in general.
but there are ways to cope and deal with these things and thrive and succeed.
Yeah, have you found some of what have become sort of like the most popular common self -care practices these days to be effective at the things like mindfulness or breathing and things like that.
Oh gosh, the most popular, that's hard to say because everybody finds something that works for them, right, there's so many different things that people can do But I think anything that slows us down, mindfulness, taking a walk in your neighborhood, just sitting in your favorite chair with a cup of tea or coffee, anything that slows us down can help us feel more regulated.
Even just doing daily activities in a slower way can help us feel more regulated, right?
Making dinner, grocery shopping, right?
Those are often things we just want to get through.
But if we can just take it down a notch, slow down, Our brains and bodies are going to feel more regulated.
You know, sensitive people like to journal.
I like to journal. Exercise really helps me, you know, whether it's yoga or cardio or strength training, like it just feels so good to move my body.
Moving my body helps me move through my emotions and my thoughts.
And, you know, get those endorphins too.
So you feel good afterwards.
Therapy, creative activities, right?
We've said, like, sensitive people don't have to be it's very typical creative careers, but drawing something, pottery, whatever.
All of the times those are very meditative and you get to express yourself.
So yeah, oh my gosh, there's so many.
There's so many great self care practices that sensitive people can do.
Yeah, and it sounds like you really just have to experiment to figure out like what actually works for me.
My mom was a potter actually when I was growing up and she would like, the world would vanish away when she was in her studio.
There was like nothing that existed except her, like, the wheel and the clay.
And that was - you could tell she was just in a magical place.
And I think we're also probably pretty similarly wired.
So I think, you know, we just - we kind of find the things that work for us.
You know, one of the other things which I'm curious about is - and this is something you write about and you speak about, is sensitive people in personal relationships and how you might show up differently.
how this affects your both capacity to be more open and deeper and feel more, but at the same time, maybe even your sense of wanting to feel more protected and not allowing yourself to go there.
Yeah, I think relationships can be really challenging for sensitive people.
Relationships and people issues are usually one of the top concerns that I hear from sensitive people, whether it's coworkers, or a romantic relationship, or a family or whatever, because we are so tuned in to other people and we care, right?
Our empathy makes us care.
So yeah, I think it can be tough, right?
You might feel like you need to put certain walls to keep people out and to keep yourself from feeling what's going on, but sensitive people, everybody, right?
Find joy in connecting with other people.
I was like, well, oh, it's all about that balance, right, trying to balance being with others, connecting with others, but also honoring your own needs.
Do you see or are you aware of research that sort of has looked at the dynamic between, let's say, two sensitive people in a relationship together versus somebody who identifies as being sensitive and somebody who doesn't, or, and whether, like, there are patterns that we can sort of tease out that to either look out for or run towards?
Great question. I'm not aware of any research that has tackled that specific question.
But I can tell you what I've heard from fans and readers and sensitive people I've talked to.
I think if it's two sensitive people in a relationship, it can be beautiful and intimate.
But you know, there's this strong emotional side, right?
And so maybe the other person is feeling really stressed that day.
And so you start feeling stressed, right?
And so there can be this tendency to have heightened emotions, often in a really positive way, but also sometimes in a challenging way.
And then I think if you're a sensitive person in a relationship with a less sensitive person, there are different strengths and challenges, right?
You might have someone who is sort of able to go out into the world for you, right?
Like, you take the kid to the loud birthday party while I stay home and maybe, you know, quietly make us dinner or something like that.
I think some of the challenges there are that the other person just might not understand the way you perceive the world.
They might not have that same level of need for meaningful and emotional connection that a sensitive person might have. And that isn't to say that less sensitive people don't want meaning, and don't want an emotional connection, but sensitive people just tend to really crave those things, and and really organize their search for relationships around those things, around finding meaning and around connecting emotionally.
So I think there isn't like a perfect answer.
You know I wouldn't say, oh if you're a sensitive person, you absolutely have to be in a relationship with another sensitive person or also will never work, you know.
I would never say that, but I think it's just different strengths and challenges depending on what the dynamics are.
Yeah and maybe just like really being open, having conversation about like just observing, hey like this is the way that I admire it and the other person.
This is what I'm art.
Okay, so let's acknowledge this.
And how does that show up?
How does this lead us to want to step deeper into relationship or want to withdraw from it so we can kind of know each other in a way where we can kind of understand like what activates us and what triggers us and what's healthy and what leads towards this function.
It sounds like probably just being really open and communicating that is probably the most important thing there.
But it also brings up another question for me, and you spoke to this just first or like a hot sec in the beginning of a conversation, but now I'm more curious about it, which is do there tend to be these gender norms that are associated with sensitivity or not sensitivity, and does that potentially cause friction if you don't conform with them?
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think we often think of sensitivity as a feminine trait.
You know, I heard that from people that I talked to when I was writing my book.
There was one woman who she was reading an early draft of my book and she said, oh, my gosh, this really describes me.
I'm definitely a sensitive person.
And she said, I think the man I'm dating is also a sensitive person.
I'm going to tell him.
So she said, I think you're a highly sensitive person just like me.
And he got really upset.
He said, no, I'm not sensitive.
Don't call me that.
He took it as an insult.
So, you know, that's just one couple, but I think it sort of speaks to the broader dynamic of, you know, traditional masculinity says, you can't be sensitive, you can't show your emotions, you have to just toughen up, buck up, push through.
And you know, emotions are a feminine thing, sensitivity is a feminine thing, you know, which we know isn't true, because sensitive people are found in, you know, both equally males and females.
So it's, I think it can be really hard to be a highly sensitive male in our society today.
I mean, it's really interesting.
I'm also wondering, like, I mean, we're talking about the context of two partners, you know, two adult partners in a relationship.
But then you also bring in the potential dynamic of kids, like parenting kids, you know, especially when what happens if you are an adult who is not sensitive or doesn't identify as being that way, and then you have a kid who very much is, but they also like don't fit with the gender norm and you have all these messages that have been like, taught to you the way you show up in the world and you never butted up against them because your wiring just kind of like flowed with them.
It's synced, so you're like, okay, like this is the way it's supposed to be and then you see a kid and you're like, Oh, there's something wrong here that I need to fix.
Like that's not acceptable.
Like I would imagine this can be a real issue in parenting and so like, dynamics between kids and parents?
Yeah, absolutely. You know, parents who have sensitive children often feel like, oh my gosh, we need to do something.
We need to fix this.
And there are obviously challenges that you want to address and things you want to do to help your child.
I'm not saying to not do that.
But yeah, I think there's sort of this tendency to, oh my gosh, we have to make them better.
We have to fix the sensitivity thing.
They're just too sensitive for the world.
I hope nobody has to go through that.
I hope nobody has to feel that way.
I think sensitivity can be an amazing strength.
We just have to harness it in the right way.
Yeah, which really speaks to the need for education to really understand this is not something that is broken that needs to be fixed.
And yet, if you come from generations where you've been told this is the way it is, it's probably going to take some time for you to wrap your head around that.
Absolutely. Yes, yes.
Nah. As long as we're in relationships and how this shows up, I mean, if we expand this out.
We kind of touched on this a little bit, but I'd love to dip into it specifically, which is how this can really show up in relationships in professional context in work.
Especially in work, if it's colleagues where there is parity.
You're on a team together.
You're both three years into the company, similar roles, similar jobs, similar levels of power and agency.
I would imagine there's one dynamic there.
But then when you start to look at situations in work where there's power inequity or very different power dynamics.
One person is a boss, one layer up or two layers up for you.
They have a certain amount of control over not just how you're going to experience every day at work, but also the trajectory that you might be able to have open to you in a work situation.
I would imagine that this can get really thorny too.
Yeah, absolutely. When I spoke with sensitive people, they often said that at work, the biggest challenge to them was the people.
It wasn't the lights, it wasn't all the commuting, things like that that we might typically name.
But it was the relationships and the dynamics with people.
And that makes sense because, sensitive people tend to see other people as a very bright spot on their radar.
We're very tuned into them and those power dynamics, like you said.
have you seen in conversations that you've had sensitive people effectively performing nonsensitivity as a way to sort of preserve their status and possibility within a work environment.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's part of the toughness myth that we hide our sensitivity.
I think a lot of us have been socialized to do that, right.
We feel the need to hide our, our emotions and our reactions and right of course you don't want to be just like openly crying in every meeting you have right let's not take it to an extreme but I think there's a place where sensitive people can show the empathy show the emotions show you know their their reactions and their thoughts to the world around them without having to be labeled as too sensitive or you know you're just you're just too emotional you're just too sensitive you're not going to be will do your job well.
Yeah, I do wish that workplaces could see the power of sensitivity and not see it as a bad thing.
Any thoughts on how somebody in that situation, just on a practical day -to -day basis, might be able to just handle it in a way where they can breathe more easily?
Yeah. I think it often comes down to having conversations with the people around you.
So maybe it's a conversation with your boss.
And if you feel comfortable using a term like highly sensitive person, great.
If you don't feel comfortable, that's OK, too.
You don't have to make it a big conversation that's about your needs and your personality.
It can be about what works best for you in that environment.
You know, if we could do this a little differently or if I could have this, you know, that would help my productivity.
That would help me at work.
So I think if we can come and make a specific ask, instead of making it a big conversation about who we are if you come with something specific, I think that can help.
And then I think it's just honoring who we are as people as we do our work.
Do we need to take a break?
Do we need to change something in our environment, whether it's the lights, whether it's the sound?
would decorating my workspace just help me feel better as a person as I work?
It's having those conversations with the people in our workspace, but it's also taking what's under our control, taking control of that, and making the changes that we need to make for ourselves and owning what we need.
Yeah. I love that you brought that in also, it's this notion of really looking around at our environment in particular, I would imagine and saying, okay, so what can I actually control or change or manipulate in a way that would be really helpful for me, where I don't have to ask for permission or get authorization.
I can just do it and know that it's just going to really help me show up the way that I want to show up.
And to the extent that that doesn't take care of all of it, then I can have these other conversations too to see if I can get a little bit of buy -in.
And it's interesting the way you teed it up.
Also, it's sort of like it would help me be more productive.
I think oftentimes when we have those conversations with somebody who's a that links it to a better outcome for that person or the team with a very modest shift that it kind of makes it a lot easier for somebody to say like, okay totally get that because we all want the same outcome.
We want all this. So that makes a lot of sense.
Zooming the lens out, when you think about sort of like where we are, sensitive people in the world today in this moment in time have a lot coming at them and a lot to deal with.
When you look forward, you know, like over the next five years, 10 years, do you have a take on sort of how best to think about the future and how to step into it and prepare yourself in a way that might just let you bring all those gifts to relationships, to the world and at the same time, feel good along the way?
That's a really big question.
Yeah. That's a really, really big question.
I would say zooming out, the best thing that sensitive people can do is embrace their sensitivity.
Stop treating it like it's something that needs to be fixed.
Stop treating yourself like you're broken.
When you value yourself other people will start to value you too.
Look at your strengths, address those challenges, but lean into your strengths.
I think it can really help sensitive people to tune into their own bodies.
A lot of times we are raised as sensitive people to just ignore signals from our bodies, right?
And all of us have been taught that to some extent, but if you're told repeatedly, you're too sensitive, you need to toughen up, get over it.
It's easy to think, okay, I can't trust my own body, I can't trust my own emotions.
And our bodies and emotions are giving us important information.
They're giving us data about the world.
They're giving us data about our relationships, our job, our whatever, whatever is going on.
So I think when sensitive people can tune into themselves and reflect on how things affect them, then that's going to give them a path forward to making positive changes in their lives.
Mm, love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well.
So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up?
Oh, I think to me a good life is slowing down.
It's recognizing the little moments that make us happy.
You can't control a lot of things that happen in your life.
We can't control what's happening in the world right now, but we can control little things in our lives.
We can sip a hot cup of coffee.
we can take a moment to play with our child and look into their eyes and give them a hug.
We can relax with a good book and just do something that feels good to us and our bodies and our feelings and our wellbeing.
So yeah, to me, a good life is a life that is one that gives time for reflection and relaxing and enjoying what's going on around us.
Thank you. Thank you.
If you loved this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Elaine Aron about being highly sensitive.
You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes.
This episode of Good Light Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me Jonathan Fields.
Editing helped by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young, Christopher Carter, crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelly Del Bliss for her research on this episode.
And of course if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here, do me a personal favor, a seven second favor, share it with just one person.
And if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too but just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
They say opposites attract.
That's why the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the best bed for couples.
You can each choose what's right for you whenever you like.
You like a bed that feels firm, but they want soft?
Sleep Number does that.
You want to sleep cooler while they like to feel warm, Sleep Number does that too.
Why choose a Sleep Number Smart Bed?
So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side.
Sleep Number Smart Beds start at $999.
Prices higher in Alaska and Hawaii, exclusively at a Sleep Number store near you.
See store or sleepnumber .com for details.
If your job at a healthcare facility includes disinfecting against viruses, you know prevention is the best medicine and maintaining healthy spaces starts with a healthy cleaning routine.
Grainger's world -class supply chain helps ensure you have the quality products you need when you need them.
From disinfectants and cleaning supplies to personal protective equipment so you can help deliver a clean bill of health.
Call 1 -800 -GRAINGER, click Grainger .com or just stop by.
Grainger, for the ones who get it done.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.
just ask the Capital One Bank Guy.
It's pretty much all he talks about.
In a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too.
Oh really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy.
What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. See Capital One dot com slash bank.
Capital One NA Member FDIC.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?
Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies.
Try it at Progressive .com.
Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.
Potential savings will vary.
Not available in all states.
