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Hey there, everybody.
Chuck and Josh here to tell you about the new podcast, Car and Drivers Into Cars, a production
of Car and Driver, and I Heart Media's Ruby Studio.
Hosted by Eddie Ultraman and Tony Quiroga, Indicars is the ultimate podcast for car lovers.
Car and Drivers Into Cars is brought to you by eBay Motors, all the parts you need at
the prices you want.
Guarantee to fit your ride every time.
Visit eBay Motors.com for more eligible items only.
Exclusions Apply.
Listen to Car and Drivers Into Cars, available wherever you get podcasts.
Hey everyone, it's Josh, your old pal.
And for this week's Select, I've chosen our episode on Utsi, the Ice Man from November
of 2019.
Utsi was discovered high in the Alps by hikers in 1991, and since then, he has become
perhaps the world's most closely studied corpse.
He's not only fascinating because of the information he's brought us about everyday
life in the Copper Age, where he hails from.
He's also fascinating because of what he demonstrates.
Researchers are able to do in the present today.
They've gone so far as to recreate his last couple days on Earth.
That's how Mac researchers are today.
Hope you enjoy this episode because it's a great one.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, there's Chuck.
And there's guest producer Josh over there, which makes the stuff he should know.
And all inclusive.
And guest, Ghost Host Chuck.
Are you a ghost now?
Did you die?
No, I just thought if there was two Josh's in here, I feel a little left out.
Oh, I see.
And ganged up on?
Yeah, I had no clever way to say it.
Ghost Host?
You're right about that.
My mouth is working today.
My brain.
That's all right.
It's been a long week already.
It's only Tuesday.
Really, right?
Is it just me?
No.
It's been a long week.
I mean, today's like, I don't want to complain.
Never mind.
Everything's great.
Hey, let me ask you something.
Does Oatsi have a noomlout or not?
Yes, it's Oatsi.
Okay.
It rhymes with Oatsi.
I saw someone put it.
I think our good friends at Smithsonian Magazine.
Yeah.
Oatsi, there's a bit of an R in there.
Yeah.
I like Oatsi.
All right.
Oatsi, roll.
Oatsi.
The Dead Mummy.
Oatsi.
This is good one.
This is exciting.
I've been wanting to do one on this one too.
I had two, but in what's spurned or spurned, spurn is where you say, get away.
Spur is like, go ahead.
Okay.
Nice.
Yeah, that makes sense because you're using your spurs.
Spurred.
Sure.
I'm sure this one comes from.
Surely.
Okay.
I'll chuck.
Just blew my mind.
What spurred this was, let's see, made some news recently because they managed to trace
his last day and a half.
They had really like in the past few days, even.
Yeah.
And about 5,300 years ago, he had the same thoughts that we had when we saw this podcast.
He's like, it's only Tuesday.
And this has been a long, long, deadly, bloody week.
Yeah.
I've been interested in this since I saw the facial reconstruction photos.
Mm-hmm.
I was like, Ertse was Jack Palants.
Chris Christofferson.
Is that, oh, okay.
Dude, a little bit of both.
A bit of both.
No.
It's like they said, Mr. Christofferson, please come in so we can.
Well, now that I think about it, Christofferson and Jack Palants have some similarities.
If you put a beard on Jack Palants.
Really?
Yeah, sure.
Squinty eyes.
Yeah, I guess so.
Around his face.
Yeah.
I guess you're both Christofferson.
Man, what a legend.
Remember, yeah.
Look, there's Christofferson.
Kidding.
That's Ertse.
Yeah.
I mean, it's me and Bobby McGee right there.
Exactly.
Did you see that Kim Burns documentary?
No, I didn't.
Not yet.
You haven't yet still?
No, I went to buy it the other day and I just have not yet.
So good.
Anyway.
You can buy that stuff, right?
Yeah.
All right.
I just didn't know if there was a workaround and you're like, oh, no, dude, here's what
you do.
Um, I mean, I'll buy it.
It's like 60 bucks.
Oh, wow.
PBS gives you a way for free.
What do you got some PBS connection?
No, it was on PBS for a while.
Oh, do you got cable or something?
See, I don't have cable.
I don't even think you have to have cable.
Oh, you mean like, like, you just stream.
Yes.
You're up the creek.
Yeah.
I thought you meant, no, you don't have to have cable to get PBS.
You just like, you just see and they're watching help people in the world and it just beams
into your eyelids.
Oh, no, what I was thinking you have to stand there and hold like a coat hanger a certain
way and your TV in the other hand.
Oh, sure.
You can get PBS.
I'm going to buy it though.
It looks great.
Why not?
And it is good.
And I would say, I would say it's worth roughly $60.
It's pretty good.
But anyway, Chris, Chris offers some figures big into one of the episodes.
Like, it's not worth more than $45.
Go ahead and pay the $50.
Right, because it goes to Kim Burns hairdresser.
That's right.
And that's a quite a collection of brushes that that person has to maintain.
But Chris Christopher's in his interviewed like today.
Oh, interesting.
He looks exactly like I'd say now.
Well, I try to get him on movie crush because he played the city winery, which is like
attached to our building basically.
So I will try and get people from over there on the basis of like, I got to do was walk
over the cross the park in lot.
Right.
His manager emailed me back and said, and this should Hart and you as well said, I'm actually
at stuff you should know, fan.
Nice.
The manager and said, but you know what?
He doesn't really do interviews anymore.
So maybe I just got the easy pass.
Right.
But man, I really wanted that one to come through to do it in this office that would have been
pretty special.
Yeah.
But on the Kim Burns.
No.
Who is?
Kim Burns.
Yeah, that's true.
All right.
Let's talk about should we take a break?
Let's go back to Chuck a little bit.
Let's get in the way back machine.
Spin a little while.
Okay.
We're going to go back and we even know exactly when we're going back to 130 PM on September
19, 1991.
Whoa.
91.
I'm in college.
It's a salad days and wearing a flavor flav' clock around my neck.
I was a sophomore in high school.
Yeah.
That's all I have to say about that.
I never wore the flavor flav' clock, but any time I let that be.
Well, I should have.
I was not cool enough, but I was listening to Apocalypse 91.
No, I'm saying you shouldn't have admitted that you didn't wear that.
No, I know.
Okay.
But no one believed that.
I'm not that cool.
It was pretty awesome.
One of my favorite ones of all time was us as public enemy.
And I think I'm flavor flavin' it, but you look like Chuck D.
And Chuck D.
It's a cool Photoshop of us.
I tried to get Chuck D.
A movie crush, too.
Did he play the city winery?
No, but he lives in Atlanta.
I didn't know that.
And at least part time.
What did he say?
He didn't say anything because the management company out emailed said we don't manage him
anymore.
So it was just a dead end.
I got you.
But Chuck D.
If you're listening.
Mark it.
Let's talk about your favorite movie.
Right.
And also shout out to Chris Christoffer's and his manager.
That's right.
Of course.
All right, boy, we're going to have to go back and edit all this out.
No, it's 1.30 p.m. September, 19, 1991.
And we are hiking with Erica and Helmut Simon.
They're German.
But we are hiking in the Oatsall Alps in Italy.
Yes.
Between Italy and Austria, like right on the border.
Yeah, very close to the border.
And on this peak, the Simon's decided that as they were descending, that they would
take a shortcut.
And the shortcut took them through this pastor Krovas.
And in this little shallow Krovas, they said, oh, there's a dead body.
There's a corpse.
And you were like, what?
I was.
Because we were there too.
Right.
Yeah.
And I said it's right on time, boy.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
That's great.
The thing is, they could see it was a cadaver.
They could see the corpse is back, back of the head, arm hanging out.
And they just thought, well, we heard that there was a hiker that was recently killed.
And that's probably who that is.
We'll take a couple pictures and go down and tell somebody who owns the nearest lodge.
Right.
And on the way down, you and I are going like, that was not a hiker that was recently killed.
No.
Even I knew that.
Like, did you see that guy?
He was super old.
He was a mummy.
The simons are crazy.
And the simons were not crazy.
But I'm sure they were saying the same thing.
They were just out of your shot.
Right.
So they, some people went up and I think within a day or two, they went up to try to get
this dead hiker who they thought was a dead hiker out.
And they did a terrible job with it.
Yeah.
They used ski poles to chip away at the ice.
They used an ice hammer to chip away at the ice.
They damaged the body.
But they think, let us just like some hiker or whatever, it'll be fine.
Like, put him in a wooden can.
Put him in a wooden can.
And this article makes it sound like he, like the whole world or everybody who knew about
this body just thought it was a modern hiker for, you know, a while until the body came
down the mountains.
That's not the case.
One of the things that when they were getting this body out, the accidentally excavated
was a copper-headed axe.
And word got out that there was an axe with this body and that is really weird.
And it was copper.
Copper with like a wooden shaft and everything.
It was clearly a very, very, very old axe.
And so pretty quickly, they realized that they were on to something here.
For sure.
And what they found out was this body, high frozen body, one of my favorite Simpson's lines,
ever.
That's a good one.
5,000 years old.
Same, like same little bit as when he goes, moon pie.
Yeah.
What a time we've been alive, Abe.
Oh, the best.
No, that was, oh, not Abe.
Abe's buddy, what's his name?
Oh, man.
It'll come to me later.
I'll say it.
I know.
People are screaming out there.
I can picture him.
I can't be here.
I can't be here.
Philco's right now.
Oh, what is it?
I want to say like, Chauncey or Chalmers, it's not bad.
It's something very similar to that.
All right.
I'm gonna look it up.
Okay.
So, they get this body out and removed it on September 23rd, 91.
Sealed it up, like you said.
Fluid out of town in a wooden coffin to Enzbrook, the Institute of Forensic Medicine.
And there was an archaeologist named Conrad Spindler there who said this body is at least
4,000 years old.
At the very least.
What's Abe's friend's name?
Jasper Bewley's.
Jasper.
Jasper, yeah.
Of course.
I mean, then Utti because of the region, the Oatsall Alps.
Very cute little name.
It is.
Other people call them frozen frits.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
I like Utti way more.
Yeah.
Utti's nice.
Yeah.
So, in pretty short order, they realized that what they had just excavated in the roughest
possible manner and accidentally come upon was the corpse of a 5,300-year-old body.
Yes.
And when I said, the guy said it was 4,000 years old, he said that was the initial like,
he's at least this old.
Right.
Yeah.
But it turns out that after further study, they figured out he was actually 5,300 years
old.
Right.
And then he lived in the Copper Age, which was a relatively brief period in human history,
but a really important one between the Neolithic Age, the end of the Neolithic Age, when the
first farmers started to appear, and the Bronze Age, when the first what we consider
society and civilization and history began.
Right.
And we know very little about this.
And what these hikers had discovered was a snapshot of life during that time, because
let's see, appeared to have just died where he fell where he died.
Mm-hmm.
Or died where he fell.
Yeah.
That was almost there.
And leaving his belongings with him and it wasn't like a great revered figure.
He wasn't buried, he wasn't prepared.
He was kept intact for 5,300 years on this glacier.
Yeah, that was the biggest deal, because they have mummies and they have older mummies.
But like you said, it's their organs are removed, they're filled with, you know, embalming
chemicals and things they used at the time for preservation, for the afterlife and all
this.
And so this was a really big deal to find this body just really, really, scaredly well-preserved.
Yeah.
And when we say well-preserved, it doesn't look like Chris Christofferson.
But the organs were there and like, didn't the red blood cells have still in touch?
Still intact, yeah.
It's the oldest intact blood sample ever taken.
Let's see, what?
So, and the fact that he wasn't buried provides a snapshot.
It wasn't ritualized.
It was this guy was just living his life and he died and happened to be preserved perfectly.
But the belongings were preserved along with them and things that are organic and typically
typically decay long before 5,300 years comes and goes.
So his clothing made of like different types of leather was preserved.
His coat or cape made of woven grasses was preserved.
It was all really cool when you look at the shoes and the bearskin hat and it was very
cool.
Yeah, bearskin hat was another one.
His toolkit was preserved.
All of the stuff that we had like just kind of little hints and traces and glimpses
of from different burial caches or just happened to find some artifact or whatever.
This was like a straight up, Polaroid picture of life in the copper.
Yeah, it was almost like someone stumbled upon a museum of natural history display, but
it was real.
Right, you know?
Well put, Chuck, you know who would have loved that analogy?
Chris Christofferson.
I'm like, you know, say either Jatsworth or Ertz.
And I don't mean would have been the fact that he's dead.
I mean, would have had he heard it.
I agree.
He's never going to hear this.
You never know.
I'm like using reverse the call to get his manager right now.
Well, you might as well, Willie Nelson will never listen to these either.
Neither World Dolly Barton.
Yeah.
We went all the country legends listening.
Ronnie Millsap will never hear this.
So he's still with us?
Sure.
Okay.
Not with us though, because he doesn't listen to stuff he should know and never will.
So apparently where Ertz actually fell was pretty lucky because it was in a very shallow
crevice.
And the fact that it was kind of walled up on both sides of him kept him.
If he was just out in the open, the freeze thoughts cycle over the years would have washed
everything away and ripped him apart.
And it didn't happen because he kind of fell in this crevice.
All five foot two hundred and thirty four pounds of him.
Yeah, which is a hundred and fifty eight centimeters and sixty one kilograms.
That's right.
He had brown eyes.
Apparently at five two was even a little short for the time.
But he was ripped.
Yeah.
He was pretty sturdy, you know, in his mid forties, like we said, and really strong legs.
And you know, kind of the fun thing about this is the archaeological forensics of trying
to piece together like, what was he doing?
Right.
How did he die?
And we'll get to all of that.
But just the fact that like he had big legs, they were like, this guy, he's probably go
harder.
He's walking up and down these mountains all the time.
Right.
Look at those calves.
Yeah.
He looked like that guy from that one liberating mutual commercial.
I don't know.
What do you mean?
It doesn't matter.
Okay.
Like ten people this laughed.
What else did he had?
He had a dagger.
He had that ax you were talking about.
The dagger had a wicker sheath.
He had a backpack.
He had a leather pouch.
Yeah, the backpack by the way, we'll never know how it worked because it got destroyed by
the people who went and dug him out of the ice.
Get some rudimentary snowshoes.
He had a belt.
He had a belt that matched his cape, right?
Yeah.
Oh man.
And we'll talk about that.
But apparently they think that was on purpose.
Yes.
That he was a bit of a fashionista.
Yeah.
He had a couple of like vessels that were lined with maple leaves.
He used to carry embers from place to place so he wouldn't have to start a fire again.
Of course.
And all the stuff you're like, cool, a flint dagger, cool copper axe, oh, some embers.
I think it's all cool.
Yeah, I do too.
Yeah.
But I can see people out there being like, uh, talk about math or something, right?
The thing is, it's like all the stuff that seems kind of boring and superficial has been
so thoroughly studied that it's actually been used to paint a larger picture.
Like we understand the copper age in Europe way better than we did before.
Let's see, was this covered?
It's from finding the few things that he died with and him himself.
He also interestingly had 61 tattoos all over his body.
Chuk.
I've been waiting for this day.
What?
You said tattoos correctly.
Oh, you mean the tattoos?
I mean, it's in the city.
So yeah, and they were, they covered them from head to toe in different parts and they
didn't use needles back then, obviously, but they would rub or cut the skin open and then
rub charcoal inside.
And they're all, they mapped them out in 2015 and organized them into 19 groups.
And they are basically, you know, like maybe three identical lines, short lines, like an
inch long or like a cross, not a spiritual religious cross, but, you know, like a plus sign.
Yeah.
I think a Chinese character that has some inspirational association.
Right.
Perseverance or something.
Yeah, they lower back tattoo.
A thorny branch.
But yeah, they mapped these all out.
And for a while, they thought, and some people still think because they were largely found
around the joints and along his back.
And he had back problems and they, he basically was marked up where he hurt.
It looks like.
Right.
It might have been either acupuncture points to mark or it might have been the acupuncture
treatment itself.
Right.
But it does, they do think that it had something to do with acupuncture, which in and of
itself was a big revelation because they thought up to that point that acupuncture had been
invented 2000 years after Ootsie and way further east in Asia.
Right.
But now they think that may not have been the case.
No. Because they found a new cluster of tattoos on his chest that they didn't formally recognize.
And they were like, there are no acupuncture points there and he didn't have any injuries
there.
So now they're, they didn't throw it out with a bath water, but there are people now
that are saying like, we don't know if that's true or not.
No, okay.
So I'm really glad you said that.
Everything that we know about Ootsie aside from the fact that he is dead.
Yeah.
We have a pretty good idea of when he lived, right?
Probably was height weight was stuff like that.
Everything else is interpretation.
Sure.
So you have to remember that interpretation.
Super educated and usually displaying the current understanding of history or interpretation
of history or events.
But it is still interpretation.
That's part of archaeology, anthropology and history, especially when you're talking
about prehistory.
This is, he lived during a time before anybody rode anything down or recorded anything which
makes it prehistoric.
But you just bear that in mind that everything we're talking about and everything you go
read about Ootsie is very much described in absolute terms.
But it is our picture and image of him, how he lived, how he died has really shaped and
shifted over the years since he was discovered and it still is.
It's still malleable.
Nothing is definitive.
Nothing said in ice.
All right, let's take a break.
It was a bad joke.
We'll talk about Ootsie's hertze's health.
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Hey, everybody.
Josh and Chuck are here to tell you about a new podcast, Car and Drivers Into Cars, a
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Hey, everybody.
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Was he healthy?
I mean, he was, no.
He was a person of age in his mid-40s of a time where at that age, he's going to be
pretty beat up.
Yeah.
He wasn't unhealthy in the modern sense where he's deliberately wrecking his health because
he's eating too much junk food or something like me.
But he was unhealthy in the way that a person would be unhealthy from living close to the
land at a time before medicine had really developed.
Yeah, exactly.
No doctors, no dentists.
So as you would imagine, he had gum disease, heart disease, Lyme disease, gallbladder stones,
heart and arteries, gallstones.
Yeah, the disorder is so nice.
We named it twice, right?
He had a whipworm parasite in his gut.
He had H. Pylori in his gut.
And all of this is to say, like you said, he was probably a pretty normal dude of mid-40s
of the time.
He was, they couldn't find a stomach for a long time.
It's amazing how much of the stuff, like it was found over the years, like this tattoo,
this new tattoo was just found a few years ago.
Yeah, after like many, many years of study.
His birthmark that looks like Abraham Lincoln, eluded people for decades.
But they couldn't even find a stomach and they found out like, oh, here it is.
20 years later, they found it wedged up between his ribs and his lungs.
Yeah, and they found it because they noticed T.I. gallstones.
So they basically traced a path from the gallbladder to the stomach and said, there it is.
We found it.
And they were really happy.
They found it because when they started dissect it or take samples from it, they found that
it was full.
He died like within an hour or so of eating his last meal and hadn't digested it.
He had food in his colon.
He had food in his intestines.
He had a turtle head peaking out.
That's awesome.
His last meal was dried eyebecks and deer meat with an ink horn wheat.
Yes.
And slow plums.
I don't know why that wasn't mentioned in here.
You can get that same meal in Brooklyn.
Yep.
Served you by a guy with a waxed mustache and some sort of arm band.
An arm garter.
Yeah, an arm garter.
That's it, isn't it?
Yeah, that's it.
So they think some sort of fatty cured meat kind of like a cured bacon today.
And the eye horn wheat was from bread and he also ate slow plums.
Gotcha.
Okay?
Slow plums.
I think slow gin from.
Oh, really?
Which I've never had.
Have you?
That's S-L-O-E, right?
Yeah.
Right.
But it's like a supposedly a very tart kind of bittersh plum, but it's like loaded with
vitamins.
I've never had it.
I remember it seemed like an old person drink was a slow gin fizz.
Well, like an old person who's like 150 euros old.
Yes.
When I lived in Arizona, there were all the snowbirds were down there.
They drink like slow gin fizz.
Really?
I've never been present when somebody ordered a slow gin fizz.
Yeah.
I would like to try one.
Sure.
I'd try one.
Okay.
Josh, go get a slow gin fizz.
Stat.
Make it a double.
I guarantee you there's a bar in this dumb building that has slow gin fizz on it here.
Sure.
Sure.
You know, with arm gardeners.
Can I keep the arm garden?
Comes with a drink?
So let's talk a little bit more about the copper age, I guess.
He had, well, we'll save his injuries for a minute here.
Okay.
So he's a little bit as lifestyle in the copper age.
Like he said, he was as demonstrated by his meals.
He lived a pretty like farming pleasant life down there, it seems like.
But not one without conflict.
You know?
Sure.
Based on his meals.
Well, based on his meals, he lived a farming type lifestyle.
But based on injuries, we're going to talk about it seems like that, you know, he
had some enemies.
So from what I saw, and I mean, we used a lot of different articles, but national geographic
is very well represented in here, live science, history.com, the BBC.
I came across something from the Penn Pennsylvania, the Penn Museum, or you Penn Museum, I think.
They have a magazine called Expedition.
That was pretty awesome.
I had a pretty great thing.
And I saw a couple of things from historians that wrote up, basically, descriptions of
Etsy and thought co, which is, this is a surprising, great resource.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you ever noticed?
Yes.
So in one of these, I saw that it was kind of put like he lived as a farmer and enjoyed
like the fruits of village life too.
So things like cheese and processed grains and cereal, so bread and stuff like that.
And the idea is that he didn't know how to bake bread or make cheese.
He was part of a villager or society where somebody knew how to bake bread and somebody
knew how to make cheese.
So the professions were starting to emerge.
But that he also was pestoral and that like he, he heard it cheap and that's probably
what he did most of it, most of the time.
And then he also lived very close to the earth, the land as well.
Because last meal was wild game, Ibex and deer and slow plums that he probably plucked
himself.
So he was kind of like this transitional human from the hunter gatherer passed into the
agrarian agriculture based future that spread out just ahead of them.
Yeah, like just ahead of them were like real deal Italians out there, bacon baguettes.
Yeah.
Well, that's French.
What do I mean Italian bread?
Yeah, they go.
In Italy, they just call it bread.
That's right.
They, I mentioned earlier that is closed matched and they do think and of course, again,
this is all speculation.
But these garments were pretty refined.
Even when you look at them now, like he had these fur skin leggings that were held up
by suspenders.
By Alexander McQueen.
Oh, man, I wouldn't saw that.
I know that was amazing.
So good.
And a great documentary on him too.
I didn't see it.
That's good.
Insad.
They talk about the color of the animal skinzo and the contrasting colors.
They think were actually matched like elaborately and he had like, like you said, a sense of style.
Like, you know, is that possible?
Yeah.
But I mean, it seems like a lot to extrapolate that his coat and his belt matched.
So they were like, hey, we had a real personal identity.
Whereas it could have been just like that's the material that he had on hand that fit.
That's possible.
But I think what they would assert is that it has enough penache that the chances of it
just being random are very unlikely or less likely than it being, you know, asserting
his sense of fashion.
And well, and he was Italian.
That's right.
So, you know, Italians in their fashion go hand in hand.
I love it.
Everyone who's been to Milano knows that or Ferenze.
I remember when I was touring Europe as a youth, my friend and I laughing at the Italian
guys and the hostels were like 19 year old dudes were so put together and like, would
spend so much time in the mirror wearing the cologne and getting their hair just perfect.
Yeah.
And we were just disgusting humans.
And they got the girls.
So yeah, turns out that they were onto something.
A little bit of extra effort really does it.
And the big hair.
Yeah, they were great guys though.
We met some cool Italian dudes.
One of the other things too though, that the fact that he clearly was involved in a village,
they think that he was associated with a particular village to the south in a valley near, you
know, the mountains.
It was things like bread and cheese that they think they found in his body.
But also the fact that he did not, he obviously didn't know how to make his own tools.
Somebody else had.
He probably did not know how to weave the capules wearing.
Somebody else had done that.
Yeah, they all had their specialties.
Yeah, the tattoos, he couldn't have put some of them on his own body.
He probably went to see a medical practitioner do that.
So yeah, this is at a point when specialists and specialized professions are starting to
emerge.
It's a really cool time.
Yeah, and these are the things that we've learned from, you know, that we've gleaned
from the stuff that we found with him.
I think it's just astoundingly fascinating.
Yeah, it's really cool.
This is a really interesting period, I think of human development.
Yeah, it's also called by the way, the copper age or the chalcolithic.
I like copper age.
I do too.
Chalcolithic just kind of coughs out of the mouth, isn't it?
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about what might have happened to Earthsea and how he
found himself dead on that mountain.
Okay.
Because there are quite a few theories over the years.
And like you said, even this week, they have some more leads.
But he was wounded.
He had a really bad wound on his right hand.
They found out he was right handed too.
So this is a big deal.
Between his thumb and his forefinger there, that area went all the way down to the bone.
But it looked like it had healed up a little bit.
So it probably happened.
They said within a few days of when he died.
But it was healing.
But it was a big injury, like we said, because he was right handed.
But it's not the kind of thing that killed him.
He didn't bleed out from that or anything like that.
No.
So it makes you think, well, what did kill him then?
Right.
Well, they think that might have been from a fight perhaps, that wound.
That has been almost universally agreed upon from the outset.
He probably didn't inflict that wound himself, that it seems to have been a defensive wound.
Right.
There was a guy named Alexander Horne, who's an inspector with the Munich police.
So we should give this a little background for a second.
When it's he was found, he was taken into Germany, down the mountain into Austria, in
Brook, Austria.
And the Germans were heavily involved as well as the Austrians.
And the Italians were less involved.
And that's where he kind of stayed for the first few years, I think, about a decade or
less after he was discovered.
And then eventually he was transferred to Italy, the Italian side.
Yeah, because they were like, he's the founder on our side.
Yeah, like just a barely.
I think also, I don't know if this contributed to her if it came later, but he does seem to
have been linked to the Italian side, where like you said, he was an Italian.
Right.
So he was transferred to Italy.
And when they, when they took custody of him, man, they pulled out all the stops.
They put him up in Balzano, Italy, near about I think like 30 miles or something from where
he was found.
They built a museum specifically for him, an institute built around studying him.
And they proceeded to study him more than any other mummy has ever been studied, probably
any other body then has ever been studying in the history of the world.
Yeah, for sure.
And have just churned out paper after paper after paper based on their findings for them.
So, but at first, some of the ideas that we have about Uttzino, what happened to him,
come from the earliest interpretations posed by the Germans and the Austrians when they
had custody of Uttzino.
Right, which weren't necessarily right as it turns out.
No, but some may have been, but my ultimate point was everybody says from the outset that
the wound in his hand was a defensive wound that came from close combat with somebody else.
That's right.
For a while, they thought there was an Austrian archeologist named Conrad Spenler that I mentioned
earlier, that they sort of recreated the scene.
And their contention early on was like, man, that acts is leaning up against the rock.
It's propped up there.
We think everything is literally frozen in time from how it was.
And I think that's one of the things that they've later refuted, right?
And they said that it looks like things might have moved around some.
Yeah, they think that the, what would you call it, the site, I guess, from the freeze
thaw cycle just kind of distributed, redistributed the stuff.
Yeah, which, you know, it's still all valid, but it was not necessarily exactly as it was
at his moment of death.
Indeed.
They did find his hat though off of his head as if it just like kind of fell off of his
head, which might have been true.
Right.
So some of those early stuff, they also found what they thought were fractured ribs that
had not healed.
Right?
So the earliest picture was this.
I think they treated it like this is a dead body mystery.
Where did this dead body come from?
How did he die?
Yeah, but well, quickly though, they also found pollen in his gut that they thought came
from an autumn plant.
So they were like, he died in the fall.
Right.
Okay.
So that's the full set up of the bad information.
So the first idea, and I think it was Spindler who came up with the disaster theory, wasn't
it?
I think so.
Conred Spindler said, okay, here's what happened to Odc.
He came down from the mountain, probably hurting some sheep or goats.
In the fall.
Went down to his village and got in an altercation with somebody, cut his hand.
You looking at my wife?
Right.
That kind of thing.
That's nice.
And he fled or, oh, and part of the altercation also resulted in some cracked ribs.
Right.
And either fled or left or escaped up the mountain again, where he became exhausted from
his cracked ribs and his cut hand and laid down or fell into this little shallow crevasse
and died of exposure to hypothermia.
That was the disaster theory.
And that was, you know, I mean, they had that for a few years and somebody came along
and said, I don't think that's right.
That's right.
Because they found out some of the things like the site had melted some and then things
were in different positions, they originally thought probably they examined the ribs again
and said they were actually not fractured before he died.
Yeah, they were just a little bent from like after his death.
Probably from the push of the pressure from ice freezing on him again.
Exactly.
That'll correct your ribs in a second or bend your ribs.
The big one though was what they found in the X-ray in 2001.
Right.
You know what they found?
Should we take a break?
Oh, yeah.
We'll discover what they found right after this.
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What did they find Chuck?
They found a freaking arrowhead lodged in his shoulder back shoulder.
Was a verbatim quote from the press conference.
This was a big deal.
They missed it.
For 10 years, they missed the thing and they found it.
Yeah, it was just a regular x-ray and they said, wait a minute, that looks denser than
bone.
What is that?
It's a triangle.
It's a triangle and it was a 13 millimeter gash along a major artery in his chest and
they're like, he bled to death up there.
Yeah, they said there's no way he would have survived this.
It was unhealed.
This is finally what killed him.
This disaster theory that he got in an altercation but ultimately died of exposure or hypothermia
was replaced by the murder theory, which is very similar but there's some important nuances
and differences.
One, so the cracked rib thing just throw that away.
That was a red herring.
But the altercation is still the same.
He comes down the mountain.
He gets in a fight of some sort.
He goes back up the mountain with his cut hand and while he's hanging out, maybe tending
to his wound, maybe trying to figure out what to do next, that's my arrow impression.
I miss it for you, sir.
Yeah.
Yeah, right in the back.
In the back.
Right.
From a distance they think due to the penetration from the arrowhead, from about 30 meters.
Yeah, it's a good shot.
That is.
It is a good shot because it was a kill shot from 30 meters, 150 feet.
That's a ways.
Yeah.
I can't quite put it into an easy analogy, but that's a long way.
And the fact that it was in the back, he never saw it coming and it would have killed him
pretty quickly.
It was a punk move is what it was.
It was.
Here's the thing because his possessions were left intact and because he had that defensive
wound, they think that this was the result of his death.
His murder was the result of a personal conflict.
There was no theft involved or anything like that.
Because his copper axel wound would have been pretty valuable at the time that somebody
would have taken it and they killed him for something like robbery.
Yeah, so this was a vendetta.
Yes.
Or at least a personal fight that happened that day.
Yeah.
Or maybe a longstanding feud.
There's no way to tell.
Here, here we reach the point where the historians and the archaeologists are like, we really
can't say, but here are some ideas.
Yeah.
For me, it's either the person who he fought came back for revenge.
I think, and this is a total guess, but I was trained in history.
So I'm allowed to do that.
He was trained in history.
Yeah, I was.
I studied history in college.
That's what they call it.
They're like, this is how you do it.
You train the history camp.
Right.
He was successful in that hand-to-hand combat and killed the other person.
Whether it was offensive or defensive, I like to think it was defensive.
He didn't have a choice.
But the person's family came back and killed him up on the mountain.
Gotcha.
That's the current idea.
Well, not that last part that it was his family, but what I said leading up to that everything
about that, everything else about that.
I'm really sorry, Chris Christoffer said.
That's the current idea of what happened at Let's See.
I think, so you're not going with my jealous lover theory?
No.
No, I'm not.
All right.
I think it was a woman with that arrow.
You think the woman shot him?
Yeah, jealous lover.
I think he was stepping out.
And he was holding up his hands like, baby, baby, it wasn't me.
And she slices him with her implement of choice.
And then dices him with the arrow.
And then he's like, this is getting too serious.
You're crazy.
And so he heads up the mountains and she's like, I'll show you crazy.
She turns into Glenn Close.
She goes in forges and arrow.
And then in that time, it took her to forge that arrow from hardened molten, you know,
flint.
Flint.
Chert.
Chert.
He's up that hill a little bit and she's like, no problem.
Watch this.
Right in the back.
I like that one too.
All right.
I'm going with family.
Family?
Because I mean, you know, the rule.
And trust family.
So speaking of that chart, he did not have, he didn't have blanks.
Yeah.
So this is evidence that he didn't know how to create his own tools.
Yeah.
He didn't replicate these tools which apparently were sort of on their last legs.
Yeah.
That was another thing too.
So he did not have what he needed.
Like imagine if you had like a tool, an axe, no, a knife.
And it's made of flint and you use it over and over and over again.
It's going to get worn down.
Yeah.
And eventually it's going to get so worn down that you just can't use it anymore.
This is essentially the state of his arrowheads and his knife and some of his other, his stone
tools in particular.
But he was not in a position to defend himself with his own tools because he used them up.
And I wonder if he's not making these in the village if they're like, Ertzies, you know,
he's, have you guys noticed?
He's on the way out.
Like we're not going to be making any more tools for Ertzies.
Right.
Yeah.
I think we don't have many.
He'll just make do with what he's got.
It's a, but he owes me money.
So should we talk about Moss?
This was astounding to me that this happened in the last few days because did you pick
this out before this happened?
Or was it Sarah and definitely your wife?
No, this is what I saw that.
Okay.
It made me say it's time.
Okay.
I got you.
So researchers found the, these moth spores that were inside of him that he had ingested
and just on him and around him.
70% of the 75 species of these moths in liver warts were not local and they basically said
there's no way these would have been on the side of the mountain if not for him.
Right.
Like a bird couldn't have transported it this far or something like that.
Like, let's see, brought these up here.
And so in doing that and tracing like these mosses and spores and everything, they have
to be clue.
They've been able to retrace his steps that last, basically 33 hours of his life, the
last day and a half.
And it was not a great day and a half for him.
He had his hand wound by now.
By the time we're coming in here, he's already got his hand.
It's got to be smarting and it's a real problem for him too because even if he could make
tools, he would have been really troubled to do anything because he was right handed and
that's where his wound almost down to the bone was was in his right hand.
Yeah.
So that's a big problem for him right there.
Yeah.
So what they found in his lower colon, which is what have been the last, I'm sorry, the
oldest stuff that he had eaten that has not yet been the turtle head.
Yeah, not turtle headed yet or I guess currently turtle headed.
Yeah.
Were pine and spruce pollen.
So they said, and it's kind of neat.
That's what I love about this like historical forensics.
Like oh, well, we know what was in his body and we know where that stuff is.
It's not at certain altitudes.
It was a high altitude for us around 8,200 feet and they know because of where it was in
his body.
This was 33 hours before he died.
Right.
The middle tract of his colon, that's where all the secrets are in the colon.
Yeah.
You know, it had pollen from hop horn beam and that's stuff from lower altitudes.
It's from lower altitudes, but also it grows only in the spring and summer.
It decays very quickly.
So it's not something that you would preserve and keep for the fall or the winter.
So throw out the autumn theory.
Yep.
So they say he definitely died in the summer.
Right.
And spring, I guess.
That means that he probably descended maybe all the way to the bottom of the valley within
12 hours, maybe nine to 12 hours of his death and then all the way back up again.
Right where he was found dead.
And they figured all this out.
They retraced all this just from those spores and mosses.
Amazing.
They think maybe so he's down in the valley to begin with or in the village, gets that
hand wound, flees up to the tree line.
And then they think.
He's like the little lady I was seeing it's a few days to cool off.
Right.
Oh man, you're going to get some email for that one.
I rechecked my right by the way.
So and then he goes back down.
They think to get some mosses because they have antibacterial properties.
Yeah, you can also wrap meat in it.
Right.
Apparently to I guess keep it or whatever, but also they may he may have wrapped his hand
in it or something as well.
Or maybe what's on a doctor.
Maybe then he goes back up to the tree to above the tree line where he dies at about 10,500
feet.
That's right.
And along the way he had that last meal of Ibix and deer and bread and slow plums.
Pretty good meal.
Not bad.
I wonder if he was panicked.
If he knew like I'm in a bad way because of this cut on my hand and my tools and arrowheads
are not in good shape.
I don't know because it's interesting.
He only know that stuff from seeing it at that point in history.
It would have been like, boy, I've seen that wound before on.
Oh, yeah.
It took duck and he did not last long.
But if you thought somebody was coming after you and you knew that your arrowhead was
useless and your knife was like dull and your stab in hand was cut to the bone.
You probably wouldn't have had to have seen that before to be like, oh, probably so.
Well, he was in full retreat from what it looks like, right?
Yeah.
And that's why he was going up that mountain.
That's what most people guess.
Yeah.
So he was probably scared.
Yeah, which is sad.
But that's how he spent this last day and a half on the run up and down the mountain,
which is pretty impressive that he was able to make.
He went up and down the mountain.
Don't forget.
He was wearing mockers and stuff with grass.
And he was old for the time.
Sure.
And he had gingivitis.
Kind of a neat thing is they have found some weird markers on his male sex chromosomes
and they've actually traced some genetic relatives, at least 19 people living today.
Yeah, in Austria.
I mean, you're not married, but related to Etsy.
Yeah, pretty neat.
Yeah, I think so too.
So check, there's another theory that says, hey, you know, your whole murder theory,
it's BS.
That's right.
Maybe the murder part is correct, but he was murdered ritually.
This isn't a vendetta or anything like that.
Let's see.
It was buried.
Right.
And this was a ritual burial on top of a mountain.
But it's not the kind of, maybe they just want a group that removed the organs and did
that stuff, right?
Yeah.
So the premise of the burial theory, called the social theory, is that he's not a snaps
out of everyday life.
Right.
That he would have been so heavily laden with all of this stuff because we didn't even
say he had a bow and arrow, covers, a lot of stuff.
A knife, a hatchet.
He was wearing moccasins with grass and they're kind of like, seriously, that's the best
they could do at this time for a hiking a mountain that's the shoes you wore.
Like those aren't mountain hiking shoes at any point in history.
And the fact that the shaft of the arrow was removed, I think they point to was an example
of the idea that he was buried, that he was killed ritually and buried in this.
So they think the killing was a ritual killing too.
Like a sacrificial killing.
Yeah.
I didn't get that part.
And the other thing is they're saying like this stuff, these fancy Alexander McQueen leggings
that he wore that were basically the predecessor of lighter hosen, then some pretty nice stuff
for a simple like sheep herder.
Is it to be wearing?
That's what this is what the social theory people are saying.
They're like, we think this guy was actually kind of important and that he was buried here
as a sign, a symbol.
And what they found or what they point to is that there's still a like monoliths that were
carved in the lake copper age with a thousand or two thousand years after Utsi because he
was born at the beginning of the copper age.
That our depictions of somebody dressed a lot like Utsi.
And they think that these are like heroes and legends ancestors.
And they're saying this guy's wearing what these people were carving images of a thousand
years later.
Yeah.
And it was kind of important and maybe this is a bit of a...
He also had some ornamentation too, didn't he?
Yeah, like a marble bead.
Yeah, which, you know, could mean something or could not.
But the fact that he had so much stuff with him does kind of support the idea that maybe
it was burial.
Like to send him into the afterlife with all the things he would need.
Right.
Exactly.
And then the other one is no one's ever explained how he was so well preserved that apparently
being frozen by ice doesn't cut it.
Oh really?
Yeah.
That other people have been found who died far later and were in way worse states of decay
than Utsi was.
But they found no like chemical preservation evidence or anything?
No.
And admittedly, both sides, if either one of them being honest, they will say we don't
know how he was this well preserved.
Quite a mystery.
Still to this day.
As much as we know about him, he is still a mystery.
He's our love and mystery man.
That's right.
If you want to know more about Utsi, go type O-T-Z-I in your favorite search bar and it
will bring up some fascinating stuff.
And since I said that, it's time for listener man.
I'm going to call this the accidental Iron Man.
Hey guys, big fan for a long time.
I accidentally did my first Iron Man in July 2018 and you might think, how in the world
would that happen?
I was thinking exactly.
Here's how that happens.
I've been doing triathlon since 2015.
I always planned on doing an Iron Man at one point or at some point.
My plan was to do a half Iron Man in 2018.
Do the full thing in 2019.
I wanted to do the Iron Man Lake Placid since it's reasonably close and as a lake swim as
opposed to a river or an ocean swim.
That's a hard race to get into though because it sells out so fast.
I got an email telling me registration was open and in my excitement, I misread it and
thought it was for the half.
So I signed up and realized after the fact that it was the entire 140.6 race and not the
70.3 triathlons don't do refunds.
So I paid my $800 plus entry fee and couldn't get it back.
I could have deferred for a year but it's decided just to go for it and I finished the race
in 15 hours, two minutes and 43 seconds.
Nice work.
And that is from John Pataniac and an email John back and it's like, you want to give
me a couple of little tidbits here for a listen or mail.
And he said, sure.
And he wrote back and he said, one thing I can say is it really takes over your personal
life.
At my peak, I was training 20 hours a week and he said that is literally just pool, bike,
or running.
He said doesn't count travel to and from the gym, cooking meals, prepping equipment.
He said it's literally like a part-time job.
And he said the race was a lot of fun.
He said the Lake Placid course goes through the old Olympic structures from the 1980 Olympics.
Oh cool.
And you finish at the finish line and the speed skating oval.
Oh, that's neat.
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
He's a nice picture.
I like that.
It's like urban exploration.
Iron rate.
And he said one of the cool things they do if you're a first-timers, you wear an orange
wristband.
So all the volunteers in crowd will give you extra support and it says I will become one
on it.
And he said it really works.
And he said, and finally at the end, the race is so meaningful to so many people.
Everyone has their own story.
Almost nothing is better after a year of training than hearing you are Iron Man when you cross
the finish line.
It's awesome.
They have Ozzy singing it.
I would.
I would too.
Who else?
I don't know.
I guess Dio could.
Again, that is John Potoniac.
Dio is dead.
Oh, is he?
Yeah, Ronnie James Dio's.
That's on.
Since when?
Within the last couple of years.
Okay.
Yeah.
One of the coolest tattoos I've ever seen.
Everybody got like on their arm, their forearm.
Oh, I've seen that.
So that when they make like the devil horns or whatever, it's Ronnie Dio making the devil
horns and the person's fingers.
Like his arm becomes your arm.
Yeah, it's really neat.
It is astounding.
I saw that and I thought, man, that's the coolest tattoo I've ever seen.
I think it might be.
It's pretty hats off to Chris Christopher's manager who actually is the person with that
tattoo.
That's right.
If you want to get in touch with us, like, who is that?
John Potoniac.
Thanks, John.
If you want to get in touch with us, like, John, congratulations to you.
You can go into Stuff You Should Know and check out our social links.
You can also send us an email to stuffpodcast.iHeartRadio.com.
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Hey there, execs.
Here's some bonus stuff you should know.
This time it's about traveling to Orlando for business.
It has tons of meeting and convention spaces that will inspire you and your team to create
the extraordinary.
Albert Manero, CEO of Limbitless Solutions, said it best, Orlando is an incredible place
for innovation.
And when the day is done, you can kick off each evening at one of the many Michelin-rated
restaurants.
What's not to love?
So check out Orlando, where the possibilities of business travel are unbelievably real.
Learn more at orlandoforbusiness.com.
Childproofing people's homes is hard, but Duricell is making it just a bit simpler.
Not only are they committed to educating parents, caregivers and medical professionals
about the importance of battery safety, they make the only lithium-coing batteries with
a non-toxic bitter coating to help discourage children from swallowing them.
Duricell even features child's cure packaging designed to avoid accidental opening.
Learn more at duricell.com slash power safely, available on 2032, 2025, and 2016 sizes.
