You've probably heard a lot about electrified vehicles lately.
Well, Toyota has electrified options for every lifestyle.
We've got hybrids, no plug needed.
But we also have plug-in hybrids, if that's your thing.
You can even go 100% electric in the Toyota BC4X.
With so many options for reducing carbon emissions, Toyota is electrified, diversified.
Learn more about our Beyond Zero vision for the future at Toyota.com slash Beyond Zero.
Hey, everybody. I want to talk to you about courses from Squarespace.
Start with a professional layout that fits your brand, upload video lessons, to teach techniques and skills, and tailor your course with the powerful fluid engine editor.
Create engaging content with your audience that they're going to love.
Then just simply add a paywall and set the price.
You can charge a one-time fee or even sell subscriptions.
Turn that creativity into income with Squarespace courses.
And right now, go to squarespace.com slash stuff for free trial.
And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
Howdy, everybody. It's January 7, 2016.
No, it's not. But in my world, it is.
It's actually 2024. But we're going to go back in time to January 2016 to listen to the episode on Body Language.
And I said it like that because for some reason, it has an exclamation point in the end.
So please enjoy Body Language.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W.
Chuck Bryant. Jerry's in the house.
We're back to basics. Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode.
Oh, man. I mean, we're all right, man.
We get to tear it apart. You believe in Body Language?
Sure. Watch this. You're winking and shouldering and nodding your head and you're loosening up and you're doing some weird biting thing.
What did I say? You said I'm feeling silly.
That's exactly what I was saying.
How about that? Yeah, it said I've had a diet mountain dew and I'm pepped up.
Oh, OK. That's what I was saying.
I miss the... No, I'm crashing.
And he's down. You doing good?
Yeah. But I'm hanging on by thread.
Are you? Sure. We can make it through this man.
You can do this in your sleep.
OK. Don't go to sleep. OK.
It'll be so boring. You could theoretically do this in your sleep.
Yeah. OK, I got you. Yeah.
So Body Language, it is a thing.
Yeah. When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
There's no way this is real.
And I could not find anything that just said, like, yes, Body Language is obviously junk science.
Apparently, it's very well established and well-reputed.
Yeah. I mean, I understand, like, like, yes, there is such thing as Body Language.
Yes. And rooted in the...
In evolution. Yeah. It's basically evidence of evolution from an amyly and ancestor.
Yeah. But the idea that, like, you can read somebody, especially like that facial coding system, it just struck me as really, like, junky.
Yeah. Well, we did. I could have sworn we had done this one when I suggested it.
We did micro expressions.
Yeah, we did that in, I think, 2009.
And I don't remember how I weighed in on it back then.
So I'm just going to start a new.
Yes. And it may be a different take.
I have no idea. People grow and change their opinions of all, you know?
Well, here's what I think.
Of course, Body Language is real.
And it can tell you a lot.
Can tell you a lot. But it can also mis- you can be misdirected very easily.
Sure. And I mean, we'll get to it.
But I found some stuff from a former FBI guy even.
It doesn't say it's junk science, but he's like, you can fool somebody too.
If you're a sociopath, you know this about body language and micro expressions.
Yeah, yeah. Apparently, it's a myth that, uh...
That's how I get by. Apparently, it's a myth that I, or a, not having eye contact means deception.
Um, while it can, his whole point is they've done studies over the years.
And habitual liars. Uh, and anti-socials in psychopaths.
Mm-hmm. Have the most eye contact.
Hi, Marie. Probably because there's that myth.
Yeah, exactly. So it's like a self-fulfilling myth.
Yeah, Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great eye contact with everyone looking into your soul.
Otherwise, the jig will be up.
Right. And I won't get to kill people in the longer.
My favorite thing. Right.
And then, uh, so yeah, there's a lot of myth.
There's that one myth also where like you look up into the right or up into the left if you're lying or recalling.
Yeah. Remember, I can't remember.
We'd, we'd to bunk that in something here there a while back.
Yeah, I think, I think body language is fun to talk about and study.
But when you're convicting someone as a jury based on micro-expression.
Yes. There's where the junk science comes in for me.
It gets a little dangerous.
And not just with body language too, we need to do a whole episode on forensics in general.
And just how junky the science that most of it is based on.
It's basically the only thing that's that's less standing is DNA.
And even that can be wildly misinterpreted.
Yeah. And we're using this to like execute people.
Yeah. And there's a big problem with it.
So I think we've arrived at my problem with it.
It's junk science when you apply it for like law enforcement.
Yeah, as fact. Yeah, agreed.
Okay. So can we be done? This is the other thing that got me too.
Albert Mejerovian. I totally nailed that guy's name.
I bet the age is silent. Merabian?
Merabian? I bet it's just merabian.
Not merrurebian. Dr. Merabian.
He back in 1981 said that in the first four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions account for 65% of the impression we make.
7% of that impression comes from our actual words.
While the remainder of the information comes from our tone of voice.
Yeah. He was, I think, is what made me think like, no, this is all BS.
Yeah, because it sounds like who can say that?
You can't. Maybe in 1981 you could get away with that crap.
Not in 2015. No, 16. Yeah.
You lived in the past. Yeah, Merabian was probably one of the first researchers to study this in the 1940s out of UCLA.
And I agree. You can't just break down percentages.
I think what he really means to say, if I may speak for him, is facial expressions and tone of voice account for a lot of what you're getting out of a person.
And I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
And the words account, maybe for even less than those two things combined.
I think people would agree with that too.
I think it's when you quantify it.
Yeah, sure. Seven percent.
He just said that just because it sounds authoritative.
Yeah, but he, like he fed it into the percentage, three maker, three thousand.
And it spit it out. Yeah.
But that is not to miss a point that communicating inadvertently is something that we all do.
Through body language.
Sure. Yeah. There was a great quote I ran across on a psychologist.
A day post. It was, it's the quote comes from a 16th century Scottish mathematician named John Napier.
And he said, if language was given to men to conceal their, oh, you found it too, huh?
Yeah, it's a, it's about as good a quote of body language as you can come up with.
You do it, Chuck. No, you, you were already halfway through.
You do better 16th century Scottish mathematicians.
No way. I'm not doing it.
Do Sean Connery reading this?
If language was given to men to conceal their thoughts, then gesture as purpose was to disclose them.
That's perfect. Not bad.
That was a dead-on John Napier.
It's not as good as my crystal fault.
So Napier makes a pretty good point.
Like, yeah, you can, language has all sorts of structure and can be mastered.
Body language is, much of it is just inadvertent.
And we don't even realize necessarily when you're picking up on it.
You just get this weird gut feeling that, right?
No, I don't trust this car salesman or I want to give this car salesman all my money, depending on the body language.
Yeah, and it's pretty clear that this started a long time ago, like it predates language.
Right. Because who wrote this, by the way?
This is a Patrick Kiger joint.
Oh, Kiger? Yeah. Kiger says, rightfully, that in took took's age, you didn't have a lot of time to suss things out, like up close and personal.
You know, once you got close enough within striking distance, you can be stricken.
Yeah, you might already have that club upside your head, or that rock in your face.
Yeah. So you needed to judge someone's body language as they approach you to survive.
Yes. So body language makes sense.
And you would also presuppose that since we are descended from animals, and animals clearly do engage in body language, yeah, that body language would be older than language.
Although this article says that language didn't exist until about a hundred thousand years ago, that's under dispute.
Oh, really? Possibly as much as a million years ago, people were using some sort of verbal communication.
Oh, wow. Yeah. And the antarthols apparently also head language, probably.
Interesting. It is pretty interesting.
I'd like to do one on animal communication.
Have we not? I think we touched on it here and there, but I know there's a lot of things like cats purring and tails wagging on dogs that are misinterpreted, or like a wolf growling.
I think that means come pet me.
You know, it's often misinterpreted as a warning.
Come take this stink out of my mouth.
If you dare. Should we take a break?
Sure. All right, let's take a quick one.
And we're going to get back and explain a little bit more about what one researcher calls thin slices of experience.
Hey, everybody. Summer is the best time to run the way you want to.
You can dial it up with new challenges and programs.
He can bring your workouts with you to make the most of those beautiful outside sunny days.
That's right, because summer is the best time to push your pace.
Move how you want and enhance your fitness journey and feel like you're most empowered self.
And of course, we're talking about Peloton.
That's right. Whether you're prepping for a marathon or improving your pace, whatever road lies ahead, your training starts here with Peloton tread or tread plus.
That's right. I love Peloton and the thing I love most are their great slate of instructors.
They can take you to new heights.
They can tap you into their expertly program workouts and real-time metrics, which is also great.
Like paste targets, they can take your fitness journey to new heights.
That's right. And Peloton's class has challenged you to be your best, no matter what your experience level.
So call yourself a runner with Peloton at onepeloton.com slash running.
That's o-n-e-p-e-l-o-t-o-n.com slash running.
Hey everybody, Josh and Chuck here to tell you about Squarespace courses.
Squarespace has the tools you need to create and sell your own online course.
Just imagine that. That's right.
You can start with a professional layout that fits your brand, upload video lessons to teach techniques and skills, and then tailor your course with the powerful fluid engine editor.
Yeah. Create engaging content.
Your audience will love.
And then you just add a paywall and set the price.
You can charge a one-time fee or sell subscriptions.
Turn your creativity into income with Squarespace courses.
That's right. And Squarespace does basically anything you want to do for any kind of website.
You can sell custom merch.
You can have that online store going.
They have great flexible website templates and analytics so you can use insights to grow your business.
That's right. So go to squarespace.com slash stuff and you'll get a free trial.
And when you're ready to launch, use offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
It was very important for me to have a therapist who could understand relationships, traumas, the LGBTQ community, and someone who was also a person of color.
I tend to deal with things in life with a sense of humor.
My therapist on BetterHelp and I, we share this trait.
And so we connect on a deeper level and I'm more comfortable sharing things with him.
I am just so much more like in tune with myself being able to talk to my therapist.
If you're thinking of giving therapy a try, visit betterhelp.com slash stuff today to get 10% off your first month.
That's BetterHelpHELP.com slash stuff.
You want to be out and about.
Enjoying the outdoors.
Meeting new people. But if you're one of over 2 million adults in the US who suffers from plaque psoriasis, the itchy, scaly patches of this chronic skin condition may make you want to put that part of your life unhold.
Stop planning every moment around plaque psoriasis and start living for every moment.
Treatments are available that may relieve your psoriasis symptoms, giving you the confidence to get you better.
Be back to doing the things you love most.
How's that for a drive? Get the facts.
Talk to your doctor to learn more about approved treatments and visit treatyoursoriasis.com that's treatyoursoriasis.com.
This message is brought to you by UCB.
So Josh has said something about thin slices of experience and I'm not talking about the roast beef line at the buffet.
Which is great thin slices.
Well, the carving station.
Yeah, yeah. You ever worked at carving station?
Have I ever worked one? Yeah.
I hung around one long enough that I basically should have been paid, but I was just eating.
What do you wait for the next roast to come out so you can get the end cut?
I know. I've never been in the end cut.
Whether it be a loaf of bread or cut of meat.
Oh, really? Like a prime rib end cut?
Yeah, no. Oh, daddy, that's good.
Isn't it all salt? Maybe that's why I love it.
You like the salt, huh? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I'm south. To me, it's like the closer you get to the middle, the juicier it is.
Well, that's true to you.
That's lower cooked, yeah.
And a little rarer in the middle, obviously.
Yeah, so I think that's my problem with the end of anything.
So you know, it's undercooked.
You know, I have a few things.
They're overcooked about why people don't like to eat the crust.
Why? Because it's cult crust.
And that might be part of it.
If like 100 years ago, they named it like the butterfly.
Yeah, the butterfly slice.
Yeah. People would have been like fighting for it.
Like the butterfly slice is delicious.
Yeah. Have you ever heard George Carlin's little take on that end slice that everybody always goes past?
Uh-huh. They're like, I'm not going to eat that.
That's the poison piece of bread.
I'll leave that for my family to eat.
Wait, I guess the end piece didn't call the crust.
So is it the crust is what's around?
But it's all crust. That's the problem with it.
Oh, okay. You know what I mean?
It's nothing but crust.
Yeah. Not but crust. It's nothing but crust.
I think the other weird man, this is a...
Are you so juvenile? This is a strange tangent.
I think the other problem with the bread end pieces is that eating one end piece with a regular slice is a little weird.
Oh, it's, yeah. But getting that other slice off the tail end is not very feasible or efficient.
No. To make two crust pieces.
No, but that frequently is the last sandwich that's made out of the loaf because that one end piece has been hanging around.
Yeah, yeah. And then it finally works as far as it's made.
Yeah. And then you stick some turkey in it.
And we quietly, while you eat your terrible sandwich.
Man. Thin slices. Where were we?
I'm a big experience. Yes, this is a professor of psychology named Nellini Embadi.
Embadi. Ha. From Tufts University.
Shout out to my buddy Robert Chajade from high school.
Okay. He works at Tufts.
Oh, speaking of, you know there's a kid with like a really huge hit single out right now from your high school.
Really? I think your high school is shown in the music video.
It's, um, watch me whip.
Watch me nae nae. It's red end?
Yeah. Weird. Yeah. Silento.
So I'm no longer the most famous person from high school.
You were in tell about six months ago.
And I will be again in another six months.
Maybe. It's a pretty, pretty catchy single.
It's a hot, hot track. No, we actually, we had several professional athletes that are much more popular than me.
Who? We had a professional punter.
Actually, I made you told me that before.
Yeah, we have, we've had a few.
There's a baseball player, hit a punter, Travis Tritway into my high school.
Shut up. Really? Yeah. See, that's a big time.
Yeah. Yeah, Travis Tritway's big.
Yeah, I don't have any like super stars.
Luke Bryan went to you. He's high school.
Man, you guys, where'd you go?
Beverly Hills 902 or now?
Yeah. With Shin and Dirty.
Boy, here we go again. Thin Slices from Tufts University.
Well, let's, let's talk about the Thin Slices thing, man.
The, you said earlier that it would be very advantageous, evolutionarily speaking, to be able to read maybe that rough intentions of some other hunter gather.
Yeah. 100,000 years ago.
Read the room. Like from a distance before they could hit you with a rock, right?
Right. If that was their intent.
Sure. Well, just as much, you want to be able to like walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and to make snap judgments about it based on things like body language.
Yeah. Same thing. And this, this is what the Thin Slices has to do with.
Yeah, they're just those first few seconds when you meet somebody.
And I mean, some people may just call it a gut instinct about somebody.
But what you're probably doing is reading body language.
Right. That's what that gut instinct is.
Yes. And those things are processed and generated.
And I think the limbic system where emotions and feelings are processed in the brain.
Yeah, limbic system from what I understand.
That's right, which she thinks.
And I agree with her that it might explain why we have such such a like a powerful gut instinct about some people when we first meet them.
Because it's tied to emotion.
Yeah. And the whole point is is this guy will cut your throat if you turn your back on him.
Right. Probably not. But in our modern context, it's, you know, this guy will inflate the price of the car you want to buy.
Right. If you, if you're not careful.
It's this totally different things.
But it's based on the same principle.
It's all based on body language.
And we're able to make snap judgments that we can't even stop and really analyze what it was that person did or what it was about them.
Right. We just know that we trust him or don't.
Or we feel comfortable around him or not.
Or we fear them or we don't.
Yeah. Based on this body language and what this professor is saying is we have a very ancient part of our brain that is responsible for processing this stuff.
Yeah. And I think just for me personally, I think if you try to focus on that too much, then you're not doing yourselves any favors.
Like let it be innate. Well, yeah, there's some people who coach this kind of stuff.
That apparently say, no, do all sorts of crazy weird stuff, which we'll talk about later.
Yeah, I agree. But what you're looking at are there's three different categories, I guess.
Innate learned and some that are both hybrid expressions and postures and things that you do.
And like for instance, you're born with like you can blush.
That's an innate thing.
You blush. Right. You don't mean to blush, especially when somebody's staring at your cheek.
Yeah, I don't think you can make yourself blush.
Watch this. So just think about hot things in your mouth.
Just tighten up your core.
So that's the innate side.
Learned would be things like hanging someone a bird.
Yeah, out the car window.
Right. Because everyone knows what that means.
You're depending on where you are.
And you've learned it. Yeah, that's not something you're born to.
Like yeah, I got your diaper right here.
Come change it. A photo of a baby accidentally shooting a bird is one of the great things.
Sure. Can we agree? But it's accidental.
There's no meaning attached to it.
That's what you think. And then there's hybrid gestures that are like shrugging is a really good example.
It's something you know you naturally shrug.
Right. Right. But it's not contextual until you learn what to attach it to.
Like I don't know. Yeah, sure.
You're not born to be learning.
Right. Or you you cry, but you've also learned that crying can get you something maybe.
Right. Or you get out of a traffic ticket or something.
Sure. Or to gain sympathy.
It can chase your parents off to the bar.
Crying. Yeah. Yeah. One of those.
And then Chuck, I said something about how you know flippin' somebody a bird.
Everybody knows what that means.
It does depend on where you are.
Sure. Because there is especially with learned.
So I think innate body language is virtually universal.
Stuff that you couldn't possibly control.
Like I can't remember why I read it.
But if you take a bite of something putrid and you make that horrible like disgusted face like, oh my god, I'm about to vomit everywhere.
Right. Everybody who's watching you doesn't have to go, give me that.
And then take a bite and taste it themselves.
Right. They can look at your face and be like, I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that guy just took a bite of.
Yeah. Or the, yeah. That's how we all learn not to eat feces.
Yeah, but there's also the human thing where you're like, oh god, smell this.
Right. That's the person who wants everyone else to just suffer like they just did.
But everybody else has just been communicated to by that innate face that nasty face that you would make when you eat something disgusting.
And again, that evolutionarily that protects us in that respect.
Yeah. You made stuff. So that's universal.
Sure. But it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent.
Yeah. Like for instance, they have a few examples in the article.
Smiling in the US might mean, in the United States might mean you're happy.
Apparently in Asia, it might say, I agree with you.
Those are really close.
It could also cover up embarrassment if they're embarrassed for you or something.
Yeah. They might smile.
Yeah. Is that why everyone's always smiling at me?
They're embarrassed for me.
What else? I contact a varies from place to place.
Yeah. Here in the United States, someone might think you're listening and like a very keyed into what you're saying.
Are you Ted Bundy? Or you're Ted Bundy?
Or if you're in Africa maybe, it might be disrespectful to look someone right in the eye.
Yeah, and I looked around to find out what part of Africa, because I hate to leave it like that, you know?
On this mass of cotton. Right.
Do not look people in the eye.
Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't find any, and everyone said some parts of Africa, everywhere I looked.
No one specifically said in the Congo, it's considered impolite or aggressive or something like that to maintain eye contact.
It's definitely in Japan.
If you make eye contact with somebody, you are saying I'm your superior.
So if you are socially or say business-wise in inferior to somebody, you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
In the US, you shake hands and you make eye contact, and you just climb to wrong right there, unless you're prince, and then you say, nobody can eye contact with me.
Is that for real? Because he likes to do things that just mess with people for fun.
I think 90% of the stories you've heard about prince are not true.
What about him playing basketball?
He's like a really good basketball player, though, so it's Charlie Murphy.
I don't believe anything.
Everything Charlie Murphy says.
So I found some more culturally bound stuff.
What else? Thumbs up in New Zealand.
Does not mean like right on.
Does that mean like, thumb up your butt pretty much?
Really? Yeah. You don't want to do that.
Similarly, when you make like the peace sign, as long as you're not showing the people of the back of your hand.
Sure, and that's. Yeah, and in Australia, and I believe New Zealand too.
Like that movie, Bad Taste, the cover of it, that I think Peter Jackson's first or second movie.
Oh, right. The cover of it's like an alien going like that.
And I'm like, what's he?
What's two? Yeah, why is he showing me the number two?
Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what that was.
What else you got? In some cultures, nodding means no.
Like nodding, yes, actually means no.
Like in Greece and Bulgaria.
Oh, wow. I can get in trouble.
Yeah, and in Mexico, Mexico, this is what I found.
Mexico, Haiti, and Spain.
It is perfectly normal to go to a waiter, which I do.
I don't do it to waiters, but I'm a kind of person.
Oh, really? That's how you call someone over, get their attention.
You may also make kissing noises at them.
To a waiter? Yeah. Really?
Yeah. So I got to Mexico, I need my check, and I go, I guess according to this thing that I read, which seemed pretty legitimate.
Interesting. Yeah, what was the website?
I don't remember. I'll definitely send it to you to post, but it was like a, it was research material to be used by business people around the world.
Yeah, okay. If it was a hoax, then they did a pretty good job fooling me.
Gotcha. All right, well let's take another break, and we'll come back and we'll talk about deciphering some of these nonverbal cues right after this.
You want to be out and about, enjoying the outdoors, meeting new people.
But if you're one of over two million adults in the US who suffers from plaque psoriasis, the itchy, scaly patches of this chronic skin condition may make you want to put that part of your life, unhold.
Stop planning every moment around plaque psoriasis and start living for every moment.
Treatments are available that may relieve your psoriasis symptoms, giving you the confidence to get you back to doing the things you love most.
How's that for a drive? Get the facts.
Talk to your doctor to learn more about approved treatments and visit treatyoursoriasis.com.
That's treatyoursoriasis.com.
This message is brought to you by UCB.
Running a small business is complicated.
There are, I don't know, dozens of software programs that you need and they're all so expensive.
And since they come from different companies, they don't always play nice with one another.
But what can you do? Right?
Oh do. That's what. Oh do has all the software business owners need.
We're talking CRM, sales, accounting, literally every kind of software and it's all on one platform.
So it works together. And it's quality software, so you're not sacrificing.
It's just a better experience than a hodgepodge of programs.
I mean, you'd expect to pay a premium for it, right?
But that's the most amazing part about Oh do.
This interconnected suite of business software costs less than the mishmash of disconnected programs you're currently using.
Less. So my question is, why spend more on programs that are less efficient when Oh do's simple software platform can handle everything for a fraction of the price?
Discover how Oh do can take your business to the next level by visiting oh do.com.
That's oh do. Oh dot com.
You know, elevating your grocery shopping on a budget is as easy as one, two, three, one, you can check out the weekly sales at Whole Foods Market dot com.
It gets refreshed every Wednesday, so you always know where the savings are.
Two, you can look for 365 by Whole Foods Market items throughout the store.
Their store brand has all the quality you expect from Whole Foods at prices your wallet will love.
And then three, just walk the store and look for those little yellow signs that mention low price.
There are so many ways to save at Whole Foods Market.
And now you know. Sweater weather is way over in sweaty weather has officially begun.
And we're here to talk to you about Bombas.
Bombas are made with premium extra long staple cotton and they are the key to feeling light on your feet all summer.
Yeah. And Bombas socks are known for running.
I use them for running, but they also make socks for other stuff too, like breezy dress socks that support your arches on the dance floor or compression socks that help prevent achiness on a long flight to Europe.
But Bombas isn't just about socks.
They make your new go-to summer essentials as well like 100% Pima cotton t-shirts, underwear that support you while still feeling airy and waterproof slides that are as light as a beach ball.
Plus the best thing about Bombas is that for every comfy item you buy, they donate an equally comfy clothing item to someone who really needs it.
And in fact, Bombas has donated over 100 million clothing items to date, all thanks to your purchases.
So you ready to get comfy and give back?
Head over to bombas.com slash sysk and use code sysk for 20% off your first purchase.
That's bombs.com slash sysk and use code sysk check out.
All right, so language is a very precise thing or it should be or it can be.
Body language, you would think, is just all over the map, but there are actually some categories that some brilliant social scientists have come up with.
Yeah, and I think they make sense.
Yeah, basically they've broken it down into five categories or five types of nonverbal communication and body language.
Yeah, there's emblems.
It's like hanging a bird.
Yeah, or shaking your fist or something like that.
Something that is very symbolic of something else that you can also put into words.
All right, who shakes a fist at someone?
Some people do. It's a good, it's a good, yeah.
Cause it's saying like that middle finger and then you're really aggressive.
Okay, that's very aggressive.
I'm just kidding, I never flick someone a bird.
Oh, really? Oh yeah, like in a car or something, no way.
Yeah, apparently it's really dangerous.
Yeah, and that's, yeah, that's why I do it.
I think it's just, I mean, I would get mad and say things, but I would never, I don't know who that person is.
Yeah, could be a psycho.
Yeah, then you're getting chased or you're getting shot at by someone because you've rode right.
You just had to shoot a bird.
Yeah, we talked about this in the road rage episode.
Yeah, I wouldn't hang people the bird.
And that's not smart. By the way, I want to update on that.
I've been improving more and more, behaviorally, even since the road rage episode.
And I was already on the right path then.
So you're doing good behind the wheelies?
I'm doing so good. I feel like I'm about the same.
Well, you've always been that way.
No, I get mad. One time you rode with me, I think it was the first time you ever rode with me.
And I started yelling at someone you're like, really?
You seem genuinely surprised.
And I remember thinking like, this is wrong.
What's wrong? Abnormal?
Well, that was probably because you were like sending an email with your left hand and driving with your knee and had a coffee in the other.
I've gotten so much better.
That's good. It's because you value your life.
I do. That's great. Emblems, after emblems, illustrators which like shaking your head as far as emphasis to emphasize something you're saying.
Right. Like, like, no. Sure.
You can just say no, but the person's like, it doesn't really mean that until you shake your head by saying no.
And they're saying no to it.
Especially if you do it slowly.
Yeah. You're really saying like, do not ask me again.
Yeah. Boy, I never thought about that.
The slow one really does mean something different.
It does. It adds. It balks it up.
You know? You know, regulators, I think this is in a conversation to let someone else know that maybe, all right, it's time for you to talk now or it's time for me to talk.
Right. Or it's time for us to stop talking, like looking at your watch.
Just getting them walking away.
That's, yeah. That's body language.
Yeah, I guess it is. It definitely speaks volumes.
There's adapters, which I guess have to do with the person listening or I guess anybody, either one, making themselves more comfortable.
Like, you know, when you're in a conversation with somebody and they just kind of shift in their seat.
Like settle in. Yeah. Now, they could be doing it differently where they're fidgeting.
They're shifting in their seat uncomfortably.
Like, they can't get comfortable.
That says something totally different than somebody who's just like settling in just making themselves more comfortable.
Right. Or I guess if you like, if you're having a conversation and someone just sits up on the edge of their seat, that kind of says we're done here.
Sure. Like, I'm about to get up.
Yeah. So please say something in closure.
Yeah, especially if you sigh while you do that too, you know.
Yeah. And then there's affect displays.
And these are the ones that most people think of when they think of body language.
These are the ones that, you know, like where you make that face when you eat something putrid or your shoulders go up around your ears when you're scared all of a sudden.
Yeah, if you're mad, it's emotional-based.
Yeah. Emotion-based? Emotion-based.
Yeah, like your eyebrows furrow.
Right. So there's just so much body language.
I came across this one guy from 1978, an MRGile.
No idea what the M stands for.
But in 1978, Professor MRGile, a researcher of body language, said that there's probably something like 700,000 words in the body language, human body language.
I have no idea how he or she came up with that.
That seems high. But it's fun to throw out there.
Young science, 1978. Yeah, you could say anything back then.
It's like social psychology.
Yeah. Missinterpreting body language is, we talked a little bit about that.
That is very easy to do. They have one little anecdotal story about a woman who was a consultant that I think she was pitching in the CEO of a big company.
And the guy just sat there basically with his arms crossed and didn't emote.
And the end was just like, thank you.
And she thought, well, I've blown this one.
And turns out that is just the way that guy is.
He's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he loved the presentation.
And if he hadn't liked it, he just would have left is what the partner said, I think.
Yeah. So you can easily misinterpret body language.
I don't know if it's, I guess it could be dangerous.
And that, well, I mean, that's part of the problem.
It can be dangerous, especially when you apply it to law enforcement.
Like Paul Eckman, we talked about him heavily in the micro expressions episode because he basically studied micro expressions through facial movement, facial muscle movement and figured out what each one meant.
And he came up with the facial action coding system, the FACS, which apparently the FBI and other law enforcement agencies used to tell whether you're lying or you're hiding something in an interrogation.
Misreading that, that's dangerous.
That's when it becomes dangerous, for sure.
Yeah, this dude I was talking about Joe Navarro, who was a 25-year vet of the FBI.
He's written a lot about body language.
And he's one of the ones that warns about the myths and misreading things.
But he wrote a whole article on shoulders.
And he said, everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up.
And then he actually talked to criminals over his entire career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might want to avoid these things.
Looking frail or weak or not athletic.
Work out. Or just try and carry yourself like you're not frail or weak.
And I think that's a lot to do with the shoulders.
Situational awareness, which is a big one, if you just look like you have your head in the clouds.
That's one for me. You target what you're in your head about something.
Sure. And then the way someone swings their arms, like vigorously or real subdued.
Not at all, like on that one episode of Cyplex.
Yeah, it was at Rock L Welch.
No, it was. Well, yeah, it ended up as Rock L Welch, but it was Molly Shannon.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She remembered she like swept.
Yeah. Elaine's desk is clean.
Yeah. I love Molly Shannon.
She's one of my favorites.
Yeah. She's fantastic.
So what was, yeah, the arm swing.
And basically, what these criminals would say to him over and over is, you know, the silverbacks don't go after other silverbacks.
They go after the weak ones.
And they said it's the same with criminals.
So I keep those shoulders straight.
And I was like, what's the silverback?
I forgot. This sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak.
Yeah. You know? Silverbacks, that's the local soccer team.
How do you not know what that is?
Is it? Sure. That's what I thought.
Yeah. All right. What else we got?
Oh, these people that try and coach you, we were going to mention that.
Nut jobs. I don't think they're nut jobs.
Dude, OK, the one person who emerges a hero from this article says, be very careful in trying to pay attention to your body language and speak consciously through it.
Because you're going to have massive problems.
That's not what body language is intended for.
So the people who say, no, master your body language and use it to communicate, you're going to come off as a creep.
Right. An aggressive, weirdo, corporate creep, if you do that.
Well, yeah. And I mean, if you're making a presentation, it's hard enough to get the words right.
Yeah. So if you start thinking about every single movement you make and what that conveys, I don't agree on that you're doing yourself any favors.
Or if you go to, again, a car sales car lot, right?
And you're like, I'm going to make sure I look very defensive and aggressive.
So I'm going to go rigid.
And my shoulders are going to go up.
Right. The car sales is going to be like, that guy's walking like a robot.
I'm going to take him for a ride.
You know, you could conceivably speak through your body language more.
I don't dispute that. Right.
You can become more aware of your natural body language, too.
I don't dispute that.
