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Now, if you're anything like me, you've probably still got Sabrina Carpenter's breakout album Short and Sweet and Steady Rotation.
Just over a year later, she's already back with a new collection of cheeky earworms called Man's Best Friend.
Carpenter explores many of the same lyrical themes as she has in the past winking innuendo and wry commentary on being a woman in the dating scene.
But she kicks it up several notches while playing around with more retro-heavy sounds.
I'm Stephen Thompson.
And I'm Aisha Harris.
And today we're talking about Sabrina Carpenter's latest album Man's Best Friend.
On Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
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Joining us today is NPR music critic and correspondent, Anne Powers.
Hey, Anne.
Hey, friends.
So fun to be with you to talk about the dirtiest gal in show business.
Yes, it's going to be very, very fun to chat about this album with you both.
So Sabrina Carpenter has been very busy since 2024.
Her global short and sweet tour is still going strong.
It's scheduled to conclude later this fall.
She put out a holiday special, picked up a couple of Grammys and released a duet of Please Please, Please with Dolly Parton.
And somehow during all of that, she found time to record her new album, Man's Best Friend.
The lead single, Man Child, peaked at number one on the Billboard charts in June.
This is her seventh studio album and she's re-teamed with her frequent collaborators Amy Allen and Jack Antonoff.
Stephen, I'm going to start with you.
How much did this album make you blush?
A little bit.
You know, the second single from the album is called Tears.
And the vibe that I scribbled down in my notes was horny Dua Lipa.
It is a very kind of retro, kind of disco based, very, very horny song.
Yes.
And hilariously like looking kind of on Spotify.
There are three songs from this album that do not have explicit tags.
Tears is one of them.
And it is the song that by far made me blush the most.
It should make you blush because you know this song is built around a metaphor that goes all the way to the beginning of 20th century popular music.
It reminds me of Bessie Smith.
But Sabrina has a different way of saying it.
Maybe we should hear it.
You blushed.
I cringed a little bit, I have to say.
I am a huge Sabrina supporter and I actually love songs about women's sexuality, but that line I don't know.
But on balance, I think this record feels very much like a continuation of Short and Sweet.
I was an extremely strong proponent of the song Man Child, which for me really livened up the kind of Song of the Summer conversation.
Even the excerpt that we played kind of at the top of this segment.
There were like five jokes in it in 10 or 15 seconds, right.
And I appreciate the fact that she continues to make songs that are not only extremely hooky, extremely catchy, kind of vibrant and shimmery and playful, but they're also funny.
And I think her background as a comic actor really has translated well to her as a major pop star.
And one thing that I do appreciate, kind of thematically, about this record compared to Short and Sweet.
One of the big hits from Short and Sweet was called Taste.
And it was really directing vitriol at the woman who was dating her ex.
And there has been, I think, with this record, a huge pivot off of that way of approaching bad love right.
Like, these songs are all... directed at men.
You can kind of make a taxonomy of Sabrina Carpenter man's best friend, songs of like men colon, dumb men colon, hot men colon.
See ya men, colon sex please.
In that way it kind of functions almost as a concept album and it's directing the vitriol exactly where the vitriol belongs, sometimes inward, but mostly at dudes.
I'm glad you used the phrase concept album Stephen, because I definitely think this is a concept album.
And maybe this gives us a chance to briefly talk about the cover controversy.
So long before this record came out, Sabrina Carpenter was teasing it with several different versions of her cover.
The first album cover that came out is the one that I see on my streaming service right now.
She is on all fours on the floor in a little black dress, and a man whose face you can't see is holding her hair.
Maybe a man.
We don't know.
Apparently, there are some rumors that it could be also Sabrina Carpenter, but that's going down the deep well of fandom.
Here's why I'm almost sure it's a man because, just to finish the story for those who don't know, she subsequently released several other covers, because this cover did cause a controversy, because she was in a subservient, quote-unquote position.
But for me, that image is so much like a Robert Palmer covered album from the 70s.
I'm talking about the guy who did Addictive to Love with the all-model band in the background.
It's this louche 70s, you know, sexy, but in a degraded way, reference point that she's getting at.
She's being historical here.
And just like the sound of this record is reaching back into the past in a sense, the imagery around it is also To me it's very 70s.
People compare...
Kasperina Carpenter to Dolly Parton.
I think she's like Erica Jong, the author of Fear of Flying.
That's who I think she's the most like.
This album to me is so much like kind of sexy feminism of the early 70s.
Yeah.
I love that you brought that up because that whole controversy and who knows for all we know the way artists roll out now.
They always have like 18 different covers already on lock.
It's like, yeah, we have to sell more copies.
So who knows if that wasn't like an intentional pivot or she was already playing half those album covers out.
But it seems so obvious to me that she is being cheeky and making a point about it.
Even the title of this album is Man's Best Friend.
Right.
Exactly.
And yet, as Stephen has noted, this entire album is like basically all the ways men disappoint us and occasionally make us hot, but also disappoint us.
Yeah.
Sometimes simultaneously.
I think simultaneously is the point, honestly.
Yeah, that whole controversy felt just not really important, but also proved a point in a way, that we still don't really know how to deal with women, and especially younger women, who are asserting their sexuality in a certain way and doing so in a political way, very blatantly political way.
I found this album to be very fascinating because I've listened to it now.
So we're recording this Friday afternoon.
We've had a few hours to sit with it.
I got to listen to it a few times.
And it didn't quite hook me as quickly as Short and Sweet did.
All of those songs on Short and Sweet felt like immediately, oh, I'm excited for this.
And this one...
It took me until the third round where I was like, okay, I'm feeling this.
I do have to kind of throw this idea out here.
And I know Anne, this is something you wanted to talk about which is this idea of her really leaning into like the comedic side of her?
There were multiple songs here. that I kept thinking, this feels like an SNL digital short.
This feels very Lonely Island.
Like it went from short and sweet feeling as though, oh yeah, she's being cheeky.
But I think part of it is the songs.
Even though some of them did feel like throwbacks of a certain era, they still felt modern and contemporary.
Whereas here, we're getting a little bit more retro-y.
Tears We've Already Played that kind of sounds like a 70s disco sound preset on a keyboard.
It's not like it's doing anything particularly fancy with the music.
It's very basic disco.
And this also comes out of her being such a visual storyteller.
She's telling stories, And these are often stories that feel as though, if this was 2005 2006, Maya Rudolph Kristen Wiig would be performing these songs.
And specifically, this came up for me with When Did You Get Hot?
Which is a great concept.
But I want to play a little bit of this.
And tell me you cannot see some SNL people performing this and doing this entire bit.
And I was like.
Like, I don't know.
I can see Sabrina being the guest host and then like you've got Andy Samberg playing.
You know what?
It's like Sabrina Carpenter would be the female member of the Lonely Island.
That is really a perfect role for her.
I totally agree.
I mean, as you were saying, Stephen, and I think our colleague Hazel Sills also wrote about this.
She is essentially a comic artist at this point.
I mean, maybe it's too early to talk about this, but does the comic role like limit her?
Do you feel like this is like getting a little narrow with this record?
I don't think so.
And one thing that I was reminded of several times listening to this record was kind of classic country music.
You know, kind of song lyrics that are doing big wordplay.
Anne, you and I have listened to a lot of vintage country music over the years.
You live in Nashville.
I was reminded of a lot of classic country songs where women would sing these takedowns of men that were so catchy and so quotable.
Stephen, I think you're absolutely right that she connects with classic country music.
Loretta Lynn songs like You Ain't Woman Enough to Take My Man.
Sabrina is often compared to Dolly Parton, and I definitely hear that.
But I think it's really about her connection to contemporary country music.
Interesting.
And y'all.
This is why I was so happy you asked me to be on this episode, because I get to test out my new theory, my new ruling theory of what's happening in pop music.
Are you ready for it?
Yes.
It's called critique.
Yes, yes.
Jesse Murph, who writes songs that are so much like the songs on this record.
You hear these kinds of themes that are on this record.
Like my man is so obsessed with self-improvement he's ignoring me, or my man turns me on by doing the chores, or whatever.
Yeah.
Like those themes are definitely in there.
But it's all about we're not trying to have a feminist revolution.
We're not trying to create a queer utopia like last year's pop girly Chapel Roan was.
We are women embracing traditional femininity and heterosexuality, but only if we are also allowed to critique it while we do it.
Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because that came to mind when I also watched the video for Tears, which dropped at the same time.
The album dropped.
And that video is playing with one of the most iconic songs dualities of heteronormativity and queerness and the other and specifically Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Comen Domingo basically kind of playing the Frankenfurter character.
And he's great, fabulous to watch.
But as I was watching it, I was like...
You know, this is also just kind of.
It's both ambitious, but unlike a chaperone she still looks very conventionally heterosexually hot.
Right.
Like she is, you know, in lingerie.
She's got her big blonde hair. hair, wig, I don't know, whatever it is.
And like everyone else around her, they are the queer ones.
They are the weird ones.
They are the outside the box ones.
And she's hot, but she still looks, you know, very quote unquote normal.
And not only looks it, but also she, in the song, she plays that role.
Like she's not- gonna be running off with her best friend or whatever who's right.
Like she's very driven toward men.
Listen, i just want to say i'm not talking smack about that, like it's cool.
Yes, As a cishet person myself, you know we need these kinds of figures to poke fun at heterosexuality, to embody our ideals while taking them down a notch, which is what I kind of think she's doing.
Yeah, I completely agree, Stephen.
Well and appropriately with that, I think, a lot of the musical signposts here.
You know, we've acknowledged Dua Lipa, we've acknowledged kind of 70s country.
The various eras being thrown back to on this album, the one that I don't know if it's going to get discussed enough.
When people talk about it is a certain vein of 80s pop and RB that has like a tinny quality to it and is not necessarily what is considered the classic songs of that era.
Names that came up, there's a track on this album called House Tour.
Let's hear a little bit of that.
I could take you to the first second, third floor And I promise none of this is a mess, Because opposites attract.
I mean, you mentioned Paula Abdul, three names that I wrote down.
And Aisha, you might not even remember these.
Samantha Fox.
Yes, I know her.
Stacey Q. Stacey Q, yes.
And Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam.
Of course, yeah.
Now, these are not necessarily artists who get played.
You hear some of their songs on retro radio sometimes, but they're not necessarily synonymous with what people talk about when they talk about 80s music.
Yeah.
And to me this song just taps right into that specific kind of fizzy bubblegum, RB inflected pop of like 1986.
Definitely.
I mean, Dan Charnas actually wrote a great piece about this for Slate about espresso.
But it's exactly what you're talking about, Stephen.
It's like early mid 80s hip hop, affiliated but not exactly hip hop, but definitely urban feeling, but also very feminine, ingenue feeling.
But I want to say I feel like the sonic palette of this record isn't completely confined to that.
Let's hear just a tiny bit of the beginning of Never Getting Laid.
See, like to me, that's really like a disco-fied ballad kind of 70s sound.
I was getting a little yacht rock.
Like I was hearing like, I keep forgetting.
You know what it is?
It's yacht rock in a quiet storm.
Yeah.
And the song changes, but that beginning took me right back to the 70s.
Yeah, I mean, this is sort of what was fascinating to me.
And again this kind of goes back to where I'm a little bit mixed on this album, which is that I don't want to ding her for continuing to sort of not drill it into the ground.
And again, at the end of her video for tears, she has a whole bit where Joe Apollonio, the actor, shows up and she's like you're supposed to be dead.
And like, sorry, everyone in my videos dies.
And she's like, We have to give the people what we want.
And that seems to be kind of the thesis statement for this album is y'all like short and sweet.
I'm going to give you shorter and sweeter.
I don't know if it's actually shorter, but like longer and brighter, shorter and sweeter.
Yeah.
Not even sweeter, but just like, Saucier, I guess.
Saucy is the word.
It's varied enough where not every song sounds like it could be a Lonely Island song, but then some of them do.
Like.
In fact there's moments where I was kind of surprised that we don't just get Yacht Rock, we don't just get country, we don't just get like New Jack Swing Light, but we also get like And it's sort of a jig at some point.
I think Sabrina Carpenter might play the banjo.
I think she actually might be a banjoist.
Yeah, you might be right.
Whatever we're getting, we're getting lots of different things.
And I both appreciate how sonically this feels different from short and sweet.
But then sometimes that sort of retro vibe, looking back in this pastiche of things, it's hard for me to take it as seriously sometimes.
It just seems like they're kind of butting up against each other.
And I worry she could be teetering on schtick versus like actually deconstructing all of these ideas.
And I think it works more successfully on certain songs than others.
And I think that's where I kind of and struggling with this album, but I still really enjoyed it at the same time.
I mean, this is always an issue when you're approaching the subject of sex in a comic way, you know, because frankly I'm just going to say Americans mostly.
Maybe it's not just Americans, but you know, we're never really comfortable talking about sex in.
If we make a joke out of it, it's easier.
And it's easier, especially for a woman to be explicit if she's comical.
And this goes all the way back to like classic Hollywood, someone like Jean Harlow, you know, or in the 70s, I think my friend Carl Wilson, in his slate review of this record, talked about Lonnie Anderson from WKRP.
In Cincinnati, you know, and I think that's a very down the middle way to approach the subject.
And I do appreciate the songs on this record that are a little more open to other emotions.
Like we almost broke up again last night.
All the I love you's and I'm sorry's were said.
We had our sex and then we made amends, That's right, Called it a false alarm to all of our friends And we almost broke up again.
There's a tenderness to that song.
There is a little bit of, I don't know, like she's not putting on the armor of laughter as much.
It's vulnerable.
It's more vulnerable.
Exactly.
At least on the surface.
Yeah.
Exactly.
I do think there is an element with this record of just looking at it in the trajectory of her career as kind of striking while the iron's hot, while at the same time lowering the stakes a little bit.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I feel like with a lot of pop star trajectories there's this sense that, like you have to top what you did before.
There's almost a certain amount of sequel bloat, you know, that comes up.
You certainly see it with people like Taylor Swift, where it's like oh, this album's two hours long.
Because it has to kind of build on something and be even bigger than the thing before.
And for me, there's an enormous amount of work that goes into this music.
Not only this album and all the sonic touches that we've talked about, but how hard she leans into making really excellent videos.
And videos that are really superior to most videos being made.
Yes.
So, in a sense, there's a little bit of like a lowering of the temperature going on, where she doesn't necessarily feel the need to top what she did a year ago, so much as find new ways of looking at it.
I think it's always important to talk about quote unquote pop girlies a term I have some issues with but to think about pop girlies as musicians and as actually caring about the music they make.
And Sabrina Carpenter is a consummate crafts woman.
I think she's the perfect foil for Jack Antonoff.
You know, like Jack Antonoff, She is fascinated with period pieces.
She's fascinated with pastiche.
She enjoys playing a role.
You know, we think about Jack Antonoff with his bleachers projects, right?
He's got this fictional scenario in which that band exists.
And I think him as a producer, someone who's so skilled at evoking...
The periods you mentioned, Stephen the early 80s and also back into the 70s, matching with him she can really fully flesh out this role.
And unlike Taylor, who some might say is Jack Antonoff's perfect foil, she's not also being like...
You know, she's...
She's just having fun in the studio.
I imagine a lot of laughter happening during the recording of this record.
So that's part of it I like.
I actually almost like it if I tune out the higher concepts a little bit or the lower concepts, if you want to call them that, and just enjoy the flow.
Yeah.
We also can't forget that Amy Allen is a huge part of this, too.
And I think having... Yeah, the songwriter, Amy Allen.
Yeah, having two women in that room, or however many women were... I don't know.
But having those two specifically...
It gives it a little bit more of a tone, especially considering the concept of this album, which is, you know, men.
Disappointing.
Men, colon, sheesh.
Aisha.
I think we're in a very interesting moment for women in pop right now, women artists right now working in the mainstream, because it's a little unclear where the culture is going.
Are we swinging more conservative?
I'm trying to get my head around if we're in like a post-liberation moment, But there's also all this kind of resurgence of traditional values, right?
This is something that pop artists are having to deal with, you know, and I think Sabrina Carpenter is consummately equipped to deal with that.
You know, it's as we've been talking about, it's the comic side of what she does.
It's the entertainment. enthusiasm about men.
It's not just men sheesh, it's also men woo.
Yeah, this is true.
Again, Devin, you're hot now.
Exactly.
She's not leading us to some kind of new horizon of... gender roles or intimate relationships.
But I think for a lot of people, she's providing kind of lessons on how to cope.
And, if not, cope with your partner who's like not doing what you want, not delivering what you want at least to you know, have a little chuckle about it.
Yeah.
Roll your eyes while you accept less than you deserve.
Roll your eyes above your perfectly rouged apple cheeks.
Well, we want to know what you think about Sabrina Carpenter's Man's Best Friend.
Find us at facebook.com slash PCHH.
That brings us to the end of our show.
Ann Powers, Stephen Thompson, this was a lovely conversation.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And we want to take a moment to thank our Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus subscribers.
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This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Janae Morris and Mike Katziff, edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy.
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Thanks so much for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
I'm Ayesha Harris.
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