Most negotiators think AI is a shortcut, a faster way to win.
But according to Keld Jensen, that mindset is exactly what will make you obsolete.
In this conversation, you'll hear how AI isn't replacing negotiators.
It's replacing the ones who refuse to evolve.
Keld shares groundbreaking research showing that when both sides use AI trust, honesty and collaboration don't decline they skyrocket.
Keld has trained leaders in more than 60 countries, written 27 books on negotiation and now he's leading the movement to merge human trust with artificial intelligence.
If you want to stay relevant in the next era of dealmaking, this episode is your wake-up call.
Let's jump in.
In the last couple of years, I've been asking the audiences everywhere.
Let's say I'm sitting with the audience of 500 professionals, right?
How many of you are using AI professionally in negotiation?
I'm not talking about, you know, looking up a new recipe on where you should go in Rome and stuff like that, but actually professionally in negotiation.
And I might get 10 or 15 people out of five, 600 people that raised their hand.
And you know what?
In 2025, that actually shocked me.
It shocked me that that few people are still using AI in negotiation.
It will be the same thing as not using Excel, not using a calculator, not using a computer in my world,
AI has been around for a little bit now, and as we said earlier, the benefits are obvious.
I travel the world right now saying that negotiators using AI will replace negotiators not using AI.
That's a promise.
Simply because you get that benefit.
So I can only encourage everybody, you know, if you haven't started already, start yesterday.
Um, you know, it's really important that you just get your arms around it and embrace it and use it correctly.
I agree, and i think one of the things we we've learned this you and i both know this, but we always want to use this power responsibly, but this power of fear.
So let's have some fun and scare people kelp.
So imagine so, let's say, there's a negotiator who has great skills, but they are very averse to ai, they just want to.
They're a purist And they go up against somebody who has the same amount of skills but is willing to utilize AI in a meaningful way and ethically and without using it as a crutch.
Can you paint a picture that helps the person to understand what level of disadvantage they're going to be at if they're not willing to use the tools?
I think the best way I can explain it, Kwame, let me quote the study we did.
You know, we finished a big study that was actually the foundation of my new book where we did a comparison of about 500 negotiators and we put them into three groups.
We took one group of people that was sitting in that negotiation traditionally old school, without the use of AI.
We gave them a simulation.
They had a certain amount of time to prepare, a certain amount of time to finish that negotiation.
And they did as most humans did.
They ran out of time.
They lost value.
They were not very good at it.
So that was what we expected.
Then we had a second group where one side was using AI and the counterpart wasn't using AI.
And that was slightly better, but not really impressive.
So the progress was not overwhelming.
And then we had the third group, where both parties in that negotiation were well-prepared, experiencing using AI and using AI both in their prep work and during negotiation.
And The difference in result was through the roof, Kwame.
The group where both sides were using AI, identified and quantified almost all the value in that negotiation.
They spent way less time in preparation and the actual negotiation.
And here comes the important part.
It surprised me a lot.
I didn't see that coming.
That was that transparency, honesty, trust, and collaboration went through the roof as well.
They collaborated way better.
They were more honest.
They were more transparent.
One of my angles into negotiation is trust.
It was a surprising but positive surprise to me that suddenly the trust level just increased a lot.
We actually released this study as a peer-reviewed research paper as well.
What was interesting, really just to summarize everything was that the negotiations where both parties used AI were superior to either of the two other negotiations.
That was a long answer to your question Kwame, but what I'm just saying is that when we see one side using it negotiating with somebody not using it, the benefits are not absolutely clear.
Because we actually saw that, for instance, back to trust and collaboration that declined when one side was using AI and the counterpart wasn't.
And you know, one of the questions I get a lot these days is should we, from an ethical point of view, announce to the counterpart that we're using AI, or should we just keep it to ourselves?
You know.
So that's one of the questions that is out there and a lot of organizations are struggling with right now.
Ooh, this is fascinating.
And first of all, I think we have to lay the foundation for the audience too.
When it comes to negotiation and trust.
Every negotiation expert will talk about the value of trust, but nobody has leaned into it as much as you have with your smartnership approach, and you put so much into this.
So for me to hear from you that trust is accelerated in a meaningful way that drives outcomes that, to me, is more noteworthy.
And I'm not immediately seeing how AI does that.
So I believe that it does, but I think that's a really interesting part because it seems like it's amplifying the best parts of humanity that are often restricted just because of our negative biases and assumptions about the other side.
Yeah, no, it was a surprise to me.
I didn't see that coming.
I've been asked that question a lot.
How come trust and transparency and collaboration increased so much when both sides were using AI?
And I can't, from a data and factual point of view, prove it.
But I think this is just my subjective opinion.
I think it was because both sides felt very confident.
Both sides were really prepared.
Both sides understood that data because AI has really helped them prep.
And you know, when you feel confident about something, you become more relaxed and you might want to share a bit more and you might want to take a chance on something that you wouldn't otherwise.
That's really the only reasonable way I can explain why that happened.
But anyway, what I'm often saying is that, you know, people often talk about when AI is introduced and the relationship between people decline.
But as you just heard, we actually experienced quite the opposite, that we improved it really a lot.
That's fascinating.
And Kel, it actually makes a lot of sense, too, because it's interesting.
A lot of top level negotiators, they're willing to share information.
And it seems as though the less skilled and the less experienced you are, the more you want to hold things to your chest, because you're not sure what could hurt you.
But if you take the time to prepare and you understand what you can share and what you can't, a lot of times you're surprised at just how forthright you can be with information, sometimes in a way that doesn't damage you but also triggers reciprocity and builds trust in the process.
So it seems like with AI we can get people to that point of higher levels of preparation and confidence with greater levels of efficiency.
So we have two confident negotiators whose skills are bolstered and they're more willing to be open as a result.
I think you're spot on.
You've probably experienced this inquiry throughout all your work.
You know, a safe word for an unexperienced, uneducated negotiator is no, right?
If we just say no to everything, we're not taking a risk.
And so suddenly, if you're confident and you know what you're doing, you might be willing and open to try something else and share a bit more because you're more confident in what you're doing.
So I think you're absolutely right.
That makes sense.
And now, let's not assume that the audience understands what we mean by using AI in these negotiations.
Can you tell us about what was involved and then probably address some of the assumptions about what was not involved too?
Sure.
Yeah, no, what I'm describing in the book is basically what we learned from the study as well.
There's basically five areas that I recommend you should be using AI.
And one of them is obviously we talked about already in your preparation.
So, for instance, if you received a contract draft or you received an IFP or you received whatever you received, you know removed everything confidential, obviously before you upload it.
But upload it and ask.
AI to identify variables to be negotiated, areas that could create value.
Questions you should be asking set up the agenda blah blah, blah.
You know the whole deal.
And obviously we all know that AI will read an 85-page contract in about 13 seconds, where it will take you half the day right.
So you can immediately get way better prepared.
The other area where you should use AI is for simulation.
The wonderful world about AI is that you can actually do a test run of your action negotiation you're going to have tomorrow.
So you can prep the system saying you're now my counterpart, you have to be tough on me, so push back.
When I ask this blah blah blah, do whatever.
So basically you set up the framework and run a simulation for that specific negotiation and feed the system so it knows exactly what it's supposed to do.
And then you can run various simulation where you ask it to do this and that or whatever.
That's another obvious area that you have to do it.
Through communication, improve your communication.
I'm sure that all your listeners Kwame, are using AI to improve their writing and communication.
And what have you?
So that's a specific area that you can use it as well.
And improve, as I just said, trust and understand emotions.
You know, back to trust.
A lot of people come to me and say, well, you can't really use AI because it's not emotional.
That's not true.
You know, I had a fight with my wife a couple of months ago and I took a break and said we have to pause this for a minute.
And I went, I have to admit, I hope she's not listening.
So I went into my office at home and went to my computer, went to chat TBT.
That was just, that's my go-to thing.
And I wrote what happened and her emotions and what she reacted and said, what should I do?
And, you know, Chativity came out with a perfect formula and said what I should do.
And I went back and then did exactly that.
Huge success.
So, you know, Chativity could handle my wife's emotions better than me.
And so you know you and you can use the same in negotiation.
Obviously just negotiation feed the emotional side from the counterpart.
And what you can do, again, I have to remind everybody, remove everything that's confidential.
But, for instance, take emails, take communication from your counterpart, upload it and ask what is the emotion?
What is that behavior?
Why are they aggressive?
Why are they this and that and whatever?
I have to remind you, by the way, there's so many tools coming out every day.
I have a hard time tracking them.
But one of them is called Crystal with a C. And I don't know how they do it.
But if you use Crystal, you can use Crystal to go and read your LinkedIn profile.
And based on your LinkedIn profile, it can identify your disk profiling.
You know, disk, the dominance, influence, what have you.
So if I haven't tried it on you Kwame, but if I use disk to run on your LinkedIn profile, it will tell me Kwame is predominantly dominant, or whatever you are.
He will have a slight influential side.
He'll be doing this.
So when you have a meeting with him Tuesday next week, you should use this approach in your communication because that will feed off really well with him.
Amazing, isn't it?
And you know what?
I tried it hundreds of times and I think it's 95% accurate in just reading your LinkedIn profile.
Stuff like that blows my mind all the time.
That's mind boggling.
And I tell you, this is a level of data and information that would have been mind boggling to just what five years ago?
Just five years ago.
But even go back to the 90s or early 1000s.
I mean, this is science fiction at this point.
And you're recognizing.
Well, wait a second, if a lot of times.
How many studies have we seen that talk about?
One of the key differentiators in negotiation outcomes is just the willingness, the quantity and quality of preparation.
And now we can prepare at such a high level with such levels of precision.
We want to understand the situation, but we also want to understand our counterpart.
And now we can do that and run it through something that doesn't have the same biases that we do.
Of course, every system is going to have some level of bias, but it won't have the same level of human fragility that we all have.
That's one of the benefits that I've had when it comes to my tough conversations.
Just like you with my wife, I put it through.
I have my own Whitney coaching GPT where it's like, Kwame, okay, calm down.
Let's get under it.
It's so funny because we can go out and have these negotiations in business and they can be really big and we can handle it well.
But as soon as the relationship gets closer, now we get emotional and it's harder.
So it helps us to see those biases in ourselves.
And one of the best things I've asked is I would give a scenario, whether it's business or personal, and I'll say what good points does the other side have?
What points might I be missing?
What biases am I bringing into it?
And I am I tell you, Kel, it is humbling.
I'm like, oh, OK, I'm a human, too.
I see it.
Yeah, yeah.
No, exactly.
I have to share an embarrassing story as well, Kwame.
And you know I get requests probably just like you from clients saying you know I'm in this negotiation.
I have this issue.
What should I do?
You know, I get emails like that once in a while.
And, you know, I have to share just with you.
I'm slightly lazy, right?
I'm a human being.
So I normally just answer it as quickly as possible, thinking that's good enough.
You know, that will give them the advice that is needed.
So a month ago, I thought, hey, do you know what?
I will try and test my answer with AI's answer, right?
So I went to Chattivity.
Chattivity know of me and my concept and stuff.
So I just told Chattivity, you are now Kel Jensen.
Please reply to this request.
Ask Kel Jensen, right?
And Chattivity did that.
And the embarrassing part is, Kwame, it did it way better than me, right?
It was more detailed.
It was more informative.
It had more background.
It was telling a lot more.
And then I thought, this is interesting.
So I took the chat TPT answer acting as me.
And then I took my own answer.
I've sent it to 62 people who knows me really well, and asked them which of these two answers do you think is from me?
And which of these two answers do you think is from chat TPT acting as me?
58 out of 62, Kwame got it wrong.
They thought that the chat TBT quality answer was from me and the lazy answer was from chat TBT.
So the embarrassing part here Kwame, is that already in 2025, chat TBT acting as me is better than me.
So I don't know.
I'm probably out of a job in two years from now or something like that, Kwame.
You know Kel, this is a good conversation to have, because I was wondering if anybody else came to the same realization, because I've done the same thing and I was.
I was instantly impressed, but then also mortified because I'm like, what is my value now?
Because the AI has just taken everything from us and they can become us better than us.
And it's so fascinating and it just keeps on getting better.
And what's tough is that you're playing as a thought leader.
You're playing this game where the only way you can be a thought leader is if you put your thoughts on the internet right.
And then when you put the thoughts on the internet, the AI is like, oh, thank you.
That's the way.
That was my thought.
Oh, yes.
You know AI have been listening to your podcast and read your books and studied everything you published online.
So, you know, it probably remembers more about what you've done than you do, Kwame.
I'm pretty sure.
It's scary.
It's true.
And so one of the things that we're going to do is we're creating our own little Kwame GPT.
It'll be like a full deep fake, because I'm like okay well, let me just get ahead of this, because it's so funny.
Somebody is going to figure it out.
It's like we could bring Kwame in for coaching.
We could just Google.
We could just use AI to replicate him.
It's like, fine, you're going to use an AI to replicate me.
At least use mine.
So at least I can monetize my thought leadership.
Yeah, that's a very good point because I think we're all in danger at some point.
I think you might be the most exposed person because you've written how many books now?
Well, this one here is my 27th.
So yeah, I actually honestly thought I was done.
Three years ago, I was thinking, you know, what else can you really write about this topic?
And I was even out saying there's no need for another book on negotiation, which provoked a lot of people, by the way.
But what I mean by that is that there's so many good books out there on negotiation.
We are not lacking information.
We are lacking people doing what the book is saying they should do.
That's what we're really lacking.
Because all the books out there, there's lots of information.
So I don't actually understand why we keep publishing new books on negotiation.
Anyway, I thought I was done because what else could you do?
But then AI popped up and I thought, hey, do you know what?
And then my publisher called and said, isn't this an angle you would like to do?
And I thought you know what?
Let's kill two birds with one stone, because we just done that study as well.
So why not do a book on that topic?
That's perfect.
You're absolutely right.
I think about that a lot too, because I was talking to an agent a while back and they're like oh, do you want to write a book on people pleasing?
And I was like, oh, well, my first book was on that topic.
And I'm like, you know, I love the podcast and I hear so many people come in with great content.
So what am I going to do?
Just like steal their stuff?
I'm not interested in it.
He's just regurgitating what everybody else said.
Well, I found myself in that same point, too.
I think I've settled on something that might be novel.
It's talking about how to have these tough conversations, specifically dealing with the dark side of communication manipulation, deception and gaslighting, but also how do we navigate a post-truth world.
Because the other side of AI is that we can create things that look real, that aren't, and then AI hallucinations are very real.
And if the AI different platforms hallucinate in the same way, then they can't believe their own truth.
So that's an angle I'm exploring, but I'm glad you took on this AI angle too because again, given your track record of thought leadership, I was very fascinated to see how you would build on it with this tech.
Yeah.
I think what you are focusing on right now is so important for all of us Kwame, because the tough conversation is really something we can see is evident around the world right now.
And again, I think I can help on that too, because you know, we know, I know we always blame social media, but we know we all victims of algorithms.
Right.
So, you know, we get fed with something that agree with us all the time.
And that's probably one of the reasons that everybody has such a hard time understanding each other these days.
Right.
If you look at Democrats and, you know, whatever we got.
And political parties have a hard time agreeing on anything around the world.
And, you know, it's just hard really to have empathy.
And I think part of the reason is back to social media, because we get fed with something that we agree with all the time.
So we get it get hard and hard of us to understand and show empathy for a counterpart.
I think I can help with that because, just back to my wife and my argument that we had some months ago, I told you about.
So, you know, I can certainly kind of.
You know, come back and say, have you looked at it from this point of view?
Have you seen that?
You know, could you could you think outside the box?
And if we're willing to listen, that can actually help us a little bit, so we're not so buried in our own world.
But you know a lot more about that stuff than I do.
I just think it's really important what you're doing, because that tough conversation is something that is really needed right now.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
And I do think AI could be a path forward.
And one of the things that's tough, especially when you see the polarization, is that some of the things that makes America so amazing are the same things that can hold us back when it comes to polarization, because freedom of speech is fantastic.
But when we put freedom of speech, our concept or an idea of freedom of speech was created well before social media and algorithms and the the media monster that we live in right now.
And so we don't want to deprive people of speech.
So we want to have... speech.
We also want to make sure that people have the right to consume the media that they want and produce it.
And there's also the business side too.
As a capitalist society, we have to remember social media, news media, all of these.
These are businesses at the end of the day.
And so we are, as a country, very hesitant to regulate business.
And so if we don't, if we're not able to curtail freedom of speech and we don't want to regulate business, then we have to recognize that this is our future and it's just going to keep on moving in this direction.
We have to have something.
And I do believe that AI can be one of those things.
If we can...
We need one that people trust enough to call everybody equally out on their BS, so we can address those biases and understand each other.
Because one of the things is, everybody's focused on speech speech speech, but nobody's focusing on listening and understanding.
No, no, exactly.
You know, our colleague, Dr. Dan Superior from Harvard, I admire his work a lot as well.
And, you know, he's he's calling the tribal.
You've probably seen his stuff as well.
He calls the tribal effect.
We're more tribal than ever before.
Yes.
You know, so so so we align us with a group of people who agree with us.
Right.
So if you and I agree on something, Kwame, then somebody else comes and have a different viewpoint.
You and I will just sit down and say we don't even want to listen to that dude because he's wrong, you know.
So today, because of social media again, we are not even willing to entertain the idea of listening to somebody that might disagree with us, right?
And that was actually very interesting.
You probably saw that study.
It's old now.
There was a study.
I think it was Obama before he was elected the first time.
And who were the people buying books that were in favor of Obama?
And who was on Amazon buying books who were against Obama?
And the one who were buying books, who was in favor of Obama, had decided to vote in favor of him already.
And the one who bought books who were against Obama had already decided not to vote for Obama.
So we're basically just buying books to support the opinion we have already.
Which to me is, I'm sorry to use the word, but stupid, right?
We should actually buy the opposite to study what is it.
That is the opposite of what I believe, because perhaps I could learn something you know.
Yeah.
And to your point, let's think about the tribal effect too, because it's not just that we won't listen to somebody who is seen as outside of our tribe.
It's deeper than that, because we realize that there's a fear of listening, because it's like if I listen to somebody who is seen as outside of my tribe and somebody from my tribe sees me listening empathetically and understanding the enemy, then they see me as the enemy because you only listen to and empathize with people who are within your tribe.
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's spot on.
And that's really scary as well, isn't it?
Because, you know, I often wonder, and it's not only in the US that we have Republicans and Democrats that can't figure it out.
I see it in more and more countries.
And I'm always sitting there thinking so, regardless what party is, I'm always thinking it's amazing that the counterpart is never coming up with a single great idea.
You know, because according to the opposition, it's always stupid whatever they're saying.
And I'm really looking forward to the day where somebody it doesn't matter what side of the table they're on, but if somebody says through the opposing party, what a great idea, Kwame.
I love that idea.
You know, we haven't thought about that.
You know, well done.
I'm looking forward to that day.
That would change something, right?
Instead of just constantly criticizing whatever the counterpart is saying.
Oh, I agree 100%.
And I know in America, what would change is that person's occupation status.
Because...
What always ends up happening.
I see it so much when people are answering a question, when they're confronted with something legitimate.
The other side said they say how do I answer this in a way that doesn't end up in a commercial, in a primary campaign against me?
Where the person's like, you see Kel Jensen?
You see he's agreeing with the other side?
Get him out of office.
I promise to be more extreme.
So...
I tell you, it's so scary because you're absolutely right.
It's literally impossible for people to be 100% wrong all the time.
But it's almost like they don't want anybody to score any points.
No, no, exactly.
Yeah, it's very much a zero-sum game, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's sad, but real.
So anyway, circling back to AI, AI, if we're willing to listen, can actually help us.
I actually saw somebody posting on LinkedIn saying it's actually sad that it might be AI that will help humanity improve trust in each other.
And I don't really care how or why we improve trust.
If AI is the tool to do that well hallelujah, then that's the tool to do it.
I mean, if we want to use it.
Let's talk about that Kel, because I had this idea of what it would look like to create an AI that was an assistant in negotiation, where both parties use the exact same platform, where it's like it's not my side or your side.
It is the platform that just elevates discussion.
And when you think about your studies on not just negotiation but trust in negotiation, what do you think about that?
I think it's a great idea.
I love that idea.
If I had the time and the knowledge, I would create something like that, but I don't have either.
So I hope somebody someday perhaps you or somebody else will do it, because that will be the perfect technology to assist two parties in a negotiation.
I'm often invited into what people, organizations, tech companies call a negotiation tool.
Come and see.
We've created this autonomous negotiation machine that can negotiate on behalf of organizations.
And so far, I haven't seen anything that blown me away.
What they basically created is a serial sum machine that is very good at getting a discount at the expense of the counterpart.
It's basically just, to be honest, an advanced Excel sheet or a contract management tool.
That's really what I'm seeing most of them are doing.
And it's not because the technology is not there right now, Kwame.
It's just because the people who are doing it don't actually understand what collaborative negotiation is and isn't, and they don't know how to create value out of that process.
There is a tool out I'm not going to mention the name but there's a tool out that they claim it's the first real autonomous negotiation tool.
And major corporations like Walmart and others in their procurement departments have picked it up and are using it.
And they're reporting it's a great tool.
We have saved 1.5% on our suppliers.
You know what?
I think it's true.
I think they did save 1.5%.
But I can also promise you that those who paid for those 1.5% is the supplier.
So it's a very simple.
There is some tool that just goes out autonomously without a procurement officer is doing it and just saying to the supplier listen, you have to reduce your price.
Blah blah blah, whatever.
And to me, that's not really advanced technology.
That's just something simple.
Instead of having a human being sitting there and hitting the supplier in the head with a cane, then you just have technology doing it instead.
So Back to your idea.
I love the idea.
It would be really, really useful for a lot of negotiations to have a tool that will basically sit in the middle and help both parties identify.
These are the variables you should focus on.
Here you would have cost.
Here you have mutual asymmetric value and blah, blah, blah.
It will be extremely, extremely good.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
Because I see this as something that could be – think about it in transactional negotiations, but also think about it in almost as an HR function, where you might have people within an organization who have conflict.
That essentially works as an advanced mediator.
You think about it within – both of us are married.
Right.
Right.
So imagine just having it in the middle of the table, being being the mediator, making sure things don't get out of hand.
Right.
And so funny because I, before getting into to the negotiation consulting, I did a mediation, served as a mediator.
And it's so interesting because once you get in the middle of the conflict, sometimes you can see very clearly where the deal could potentially be.
But the two parties, they are too entrenched internally.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Perhaps we should do it Kwame, or find somebody who could do it for us, because it must be a question of time before that is out there.
But it requires somebody like you and me who have the knowledge into negotiation, because you just can't have a tech company doing it because they are lacking that understanding of mediation and value creation and negotiation.
But a great idea.
I love it.
It's a wonderful idea.
Thank you.
No, that would be great.
I'm going to keep my eye out.
If I find something, if I find some way to bring that into existence...
I want to.
And for me it's not even, and that's why I feel comfortable saying it on the podcast too, because it's not even about me getting accolades or shine for it.
I just think that would be beneficial for humanity.
So if we can, I just want to find somebody who could help me bring it into life.
No, I absolutely agree with you.
I think that would be a wonderful tool and it will be useful in so many many, many situations, if obviously both parties are willing to accept that process of being helped by AI.
I agree.
Let's talk about the.
Now back to the book too, because I want to make sure we give this proper focus, because we've talked a lot about how we can actually use AI effectively.
What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people make?
Yeah, I would say one of the biggest problems is really not knowing how to prompt.
I mean, we all know that prompting is the key, the holy grail, how to handle AI.
And what I spend time on a whole chapter on the book is basically just listing prompts you should use in negotiation.
Because it's not rocket science.
It's very simple, but you have to do it correctly in order to get the value out of it.
And It's down to how you prompt properly.
It's how you build up your negotiation agent within AI.
It's basically how you prep the system.
That's the biggest mistake.
It's really not more complicated than that.
It's the same thing.
If you don't know how to negotiate and ask the right question, then you're going to mess up.
If you don't know how to prompt correctly in AI, then you're going to mess up as well.
Sit down and study how to prompt, how to use the system correctly.
You'll get a lot of value out of it.
I agree 100%.
And the prompt engineering, I think it's an underappreciated skill.
Because, especially when people start using AI, a lot of times they just use it as an advanced Google, very simple things like that.
But something that's been benefited me is almost talking to it as if it was a person, something like that.
So this is who you are.
This is the role I want you to play.
Now let's have a conversation.
And the conversational aspect of it makes actually makes me more engaged with the process, too.
Yes, I completely agree with you.
The more you prep it, the more you set it up to be a person, an individual, have a role, a challenge, an assignment, our responsibility, the better it gets.
One last thing that I want to make sure we talk about is the role-playing aspect.
Because we have different ways.
We can do it with text.
We can do it with voice.
When you've used it personally and the people that you've worked with as a role play tool.
Can you talk about the impact that's had on them when it comes to prepping for confident performance in the conversations?
Well, it's funny that you mentioned the difficult conversation thing, because I have experienced every single time I convince a client that they should use AI to set up the role play and the simulation.
They have walked away with a better understanding of the counterpart's approach because AI have kind of opened their eyes for okay, you could look at this problem this way or there's a different direction, or there's this area there could be this issue.
Because, you know, I often call it the Copernicus effect.
Copernicus.
I'm pretty sure some of the listeners remember Copernicus many, many years ago.
Suddenly one day said you know what?
I don't think Earth is the center of the universe, I think it's the sun.
And back then in Europe, it was the Catholic Church that was the ultimate power and they had said well, you know what?
Earth is the center of the universe.
And they didn't like Copernicus.
I don't know if you remember the story, but they start interrogating Copernicus to make him change his mind.
But he was very stubborn.
He thought that his math was right.
And then they put him in house arrest and then they tortured him and finally executed him because you know he was wrong.
Now, actually, the Catholic Church have been out apologizing, saying, oops, OK, that was a mistake.
But I call that the Copernicus effect because we all live in a bubble, right?
And in my bubble, Kwame, I have monopoly on how the world works.
And if you see the world differently than I do, then obviously you're wrong.
Back to our whole conversation 10 minutes ago.
And AI can really help us open that if we are willing to listen.
So back to what I said earlier.
Upload communication, upload an RFP, upload a contract, upload whatever you have information about the counterpart, and then ask AI to pretend to be that counterpart and share their belief, where they're coming from, their target, their purpose, their interest and what have you.
And obviously, a complete revelation of information that you're getting there that you haven't even seen or could imagine would be important to the counterpart.
And quite often, Kwame, I'm sure you experience the same thing.
I often see that people not only talk or actually listen, just to prepare to talk themselves what they want to say.
They also only prepare their own situation.
What is my cost?
What is my liability?
What is it I want to achieve?
What is my target?
And they completely forget that on the other side of the table is a human being sitting with the same body temperature as them, that may have different interests purpose values, cost what have you?
So one of the things and this was way before AI as well but One of the things that you and I, as negotiation coaches, have to tell them is think about the counterpart.
You know, think about the counterpart.
Perhaps even think about the counterpart before you think about yourself.
And AI can just kickstart that by actually taking that role of the counterpart.
Sorry that was a long answer to your question, but it's a great question Kwame, because it's so important that we can use AI for that specific purpose as well.
I love that answer.
I love that answer.
I wanted you to keep going.
It was so good because you're absolutely right.
And I think one of the things that it just helps you to circumvent your own BS.
You know, when it comes to just the.
You know we, we all kind of have our own egocentric approach to life in general, where we just almost and I think it's getting worse too, because we almost, like we look at other people as NPCs, non-playable characters in our video game of life
And we're the main character and their job is to just like Get on board or get out of the way.
And so that has been one of the most shocking revelations for me when I was using AI is just recognizing how it jumpstarted empathy where I said, oh man.
Talk about that for me, though.
However, you also have to prep the AI system, whatever you're using, not to be so pleasing, because you probably experienced that too.
They are so pleasing.
They just want to make you happy.
So, you know, if you go there and ask who's the greatest negotiator in the world, they will say you.
No, no, no, no, no.
You're not here to please me.
I want honesty, you know.
So you have to prep it and actually be honest with me, be direct, be strict, you know.
So you have to prep it to be not to be so pleasing.
That's also why, you know, people are often saying how come that AI comes up with some BS?
That is not real.
It's basically just doing it because they want to please you, just want to make you happy, you know.
So so you have to again instruct it not to be so people pleasing, but actually do the right thing and just advise you and help you probably, instead.
That's arguably one of the most important points of this whole conversation, because otherwise it just what makes people feel good, making them feel right.
And sometimes.
One time I did this little experiment where I said how, let me see how wrong I can be and see what it's.
And it was still very complimentary, even if it gently said OK, you know, that doesn't make sense at all.
But, yeah, I'm explicitly saying, tell me when I'm wrong, if I'm wrong.
It doesn't help me to get better if you just tell me I'm amazing all the time.
That's a very important point.
And I've recognized, too, that in more of the modern iterations, it's become more people pleasing.
And I think that's because they realize, again, it creates a positive bias.
It's like wow, I like talking to this thing because nobody else says I'm right, but this thing says I'm right, which might be a signal that sometimes in your life you might be wrong, but you know.
Yeah, I actually like this thing more than my wife because...
That's going to be another frontier.
We're seeing people who have been engaged to their AIs and everything.
Oh, yes.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
You know, the AI really understands me.
It really gets me, Kwame.
The thing that it gets is that I'm always right.
That's true.
That's great.
That's the sad part.
Well, Keld, it's always a pleasure, man.
I love having you on the show.
And again, before you go, just remind the listeners about the new book and how they can work with you.
Oh, yeah.
The Smart Negotiator is just published a few days ago.
Available everywhere where you get your books.
It's a book specifically on the use of AI in negotiations.
So that's the angle.
I'm not only talking about why you should use AI, but certainly about how you should use AI.
And I think I've revealed through our talk right now that I am a fan of using AI and I think we should
I think it's a mistake not doing it.
But on the other hand, you also have to be well equipped and educated in negotiation.
I mean, it's not just about jumping into negotiation by using AI now and thinking OK, I can skip all knowledge in negotiation.
That is a requirement.
We can see that, too.
So you need to have the proper education.
You need to have gone through all the the right channels and know your stuff before you start using AI.
But then it's amazing.
Obviously, I hope everybody will find that of interest and go out and get the book.
It's out there.
I did one LinkedIn course, not like you, Kwame.
I'm a complete amateur compared to you.
I did one LinkedIn course on AI in negotiations as well.
I'm not even close to two and a half million.
There's 2,600 people who have watched it so far.
It came out a month ago.
So anyway, if you are – I don't even know what it is.
Is it LinkedIn?
What is it called?
If you pay for LinkedIn, I guess, then you have free access to the LinkedIn courses, right?
Is that how it works?
Yeah.
If you have the LinkedIn Learning subscription.
And we'll make sure to put links to your website, the book link and then also the LinkedIn course too, because I know a lot of our listeners are from LinkedIn.
So I think they'd appreciate that.
I always give Simon an opportunity to pop in and ask one question because he's been listening.
And I don't know if he probably didn't tell you he has the top Spanish negotiation podcast in the world.
Oh, wow.
I'm impressed, Simon.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And thank you, Kwame.
Yeah, I have a question about the role of authenticity and AI.
I love AI and I have used AI to negotiate with Kwame, of course, because otherwise it's very difficult.
But it is kind of embarrassing to say, hey, Kwame, I used AI to negotiate with you.
It's like we do it, but we don't want to tell the other party that we're using AI to negotiate with them.
So what happens there in terms of, I don't know, psychologically?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I had a funny experience about a week ago.
You know, I'm very active on LinkedIn and I post something about something.
And then there was somebody saying, well, you know what?
I saw your post and I ran it through an AI machine, whatever.
And it detected that 78% or whatever it was of your content was written by AI.
And I said, of course it was.
Why wouldn't it be?
I generate the idea, give it to AI, and then AI makes it better.
So that's what I do.
I lecture at university as well.
I advise my students, use AI, write whatever you can in AI.
Obviously you have to come up with the idea, not steal somebody else's idea.
Then makes it better with AI.
So back to your question.
And I think we actually started talking about this as well, Kwame.
I think, first and foremost, that you don't, even today, have to announce to the counterpart you use AI, because I would assume that you're doing it.
I'm sorry I used the word stupid again, but if you're not using AI, you're behind on points already.
So if one side is using AI, I would expect you to do it as well.
And Since I'm a strong believer in collaborative negotiation, I often ask when I'm sitting as an advisor to my client.
I often ask my counterpart even before we meet up are you guys using AI?
Because if you're not, please do, because we are.
So I don't want it to be like a secret manipulative tool.
I want everybody to use it because if everybody understands the rules of the game, the game becomes way better.
So I would just be open and honest about it right from the beginning.
Saying so, we are prepping our negotiation team with AI.
I hope you're doing the same.
I would say that a week before we actually meet up.
Back to what you're saying, Simone.
I would actually just be open about it and even share my foundings and content and data with the counterpart, because it just makes the whole negotiation better.
But that's back to what Kwame and I talk about.
Are we in a transactional negotiation or collaborative negotiation?
And I believe that all of us will gain more value out of the collaborative negotiations.
You can probably find somebody Simon, who will disagree with me and say no, you should keep it hidden and definitely not share with the counterpart.
You're using AI, because that will give you the edge.
And then you can beat them.
And then, well, there you go.
We have different approaches to negotiations as well.
It depends who you ask.
That's such a good answer.
That's such a good answer.
And to the point, too, that other people would say, because you are 100 percent right.
There are people who would say, yeah, don't tell them that's your competitive edge.
I don't know about you, Kel, but I don't enjoy negotiating with people who are not prepared to.
I I, I know better and the outcomes are better because we can be more collaborative if we're kind of at the same level.
But if you're negotiating with somebody who is not willing to share information, they didn't do their preparation.
I think about negotiation like a dance.
Even if I'm a good dancer, if you can't dance now, both of us look bad.
And so I want to have beautiful negotiations.
And the more prepared and the more skilled the other negotiator is, the better the deal ends up.
You're absolutely right.
I mean, I play tennis.
I'm not very good at it, but I play tennis.
And I have found that when I'm playing with somebody that's worse than me, I sometimes lose the game simply because I get so frustrated.
They can't figure out how to play tennis.
Right.
When I'm playing with somebody that's better than me and that happens most of the time I'm actually just admiring the game.
How good they are at it.
And my game becomes better as well, because I'm basically being helped by somebody who's better than me.
And if I should reflect that learning into negotiation, the same thing goes.
When I'm negotiating with somebody that is really bad at it.
I don't know what is going on.
It's a horrible negotiation.
But when I'm sitting with a client in a negotiation meeting somebody who's better than me, I can just sit down there and applaud and think this is great.
This is wonderful.
We all know what's going on right here.
And the same thing with AI.
So again, back to AI can help us.
It can help us as well, helping the counterpart to help themselves, which I think is our responsibility as well.
I agree.
And I think it's important for high-level negotiators to say that more frequently, because when we think about it in terms of getting one over another – I can't think of one time where I did the maneuver and I feel like I did well, because I got one over on somebody.
I don't really –
In my whole time negotiating that, it's just not a move that I go for.
And to me, it raises some ethical flags.
But I think yeah, if we can just drop the tough guy bravado sometimes and just realize hey listen, we will all do better.
If we're willing to work together through this and get the other person to believe that.
And I think, especially going back to the example in your answer to Simone too if you, if you say hey, I'm using this tool because it will make me better,
Heads up.
You probably should do it, too.
So we could both come to the table prepared.
I think that sends a really strong collaborative signal to the other side that says hey, most people wouldn't say that.
What does that mean?
That's interesting.
I'm actually if I could just add one more thing what I'm often saying in real life negotiation and advising my students and clients to say and a lot of people think I'm naive when I'm saying it, but I'm often stepping into a negotiation and opening up by saying Kwame listen, I'm here today to help you reduce your costs, your risk and your liabilities and help you improve your profit.
And that's my role today.
Would you be interested in me assisting you doing all of that?
Now I can promise you, in real life you'll have a counterpart that will look suspicious, but they will say yes.
And then you add on that by saying, and by the way, I feel that your responsibility here today is helping me reduce my cost, my risk, my liabilities, and help me improve my profit.
Would you be willing to do that?
Because What we're doing here today is not fighting.
I don't want to make $100 at your expense.
I want to help you get an additional $100, but I want to pay for it.
So it's actually an exercise.
It's a group exercise, a brainstorming exercise, figuring out how can two plus two equals more than four.
And I think that's my approach to negotiation in general, where it's possible.
Wow.
I'm just thinking about myself as a counterpart there, especially if I'm trying to be that tough guy.
I'm trying to play it closer to the test.
There's no response.
It's like, so no, actually called I'm a jerk and I want to hurt you.
Exactly.
Exactly.
No, I don't want to do any of that.
No, exactly.
Yeah.
That's great.
Oh, man.
This is great, man.
I love this.
And I love the work that you're doing.
I'm glad that you wrote your 37th book.
I think it was necessary.
So hopefully technology continues to improve and force you to get off the bench and write another one coming up too.
So I appreciate you.
And thank you.
Thanks again for coming back on the show.
We always love having you.
Thank you for having me, Kwame.
