As we were paying the bill, a lady came over and got very close to my husband's face and said, I just want you to know that your children have ruined my dinner and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.
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Let's talk about one of the most adventurous things a parent can do.
Go to a restaurant with young children.
I've been there. I'm guessing a lot of you have been there and it is an experience full of anxiety, fear, and hyper -attunement to what others around you might be thinking of you.
Or how they might be judging your parenting.
Well, today on the podcast, I'm talking to a mom who braved the public restaurant expedition, and it didn't go so well.
This is something I know everyone will be able to relate to.
I hear there's a little situation with you and your kids at a restaurant, and I'd love to hear about it.
Yeah, so we have a five -year -old and a four -year -old daughter.
Had a full day of school.
until we went to ballet class and we decided to pop across the street for some dinner.
And the kids were sitting together along the bench around the outside of the restaurant and my husband and I were sitting across from them in chairs.
They were getting at each other as they do when they get tired and had to go to the bathroom so many times.
We took them for walks several times to try to keep them entertained.
They had markers, they had crayons.
I had everything I could think of to keep them calm.
They were reaching for these ornaments that were above their heads, and my husband and I were just like, we're doing our best, we're just going to get this sushi in, and then we're going to go home.
And as we were paying the bill, a lady came over and got very close to my husband's face and said, I just want you to know that your children have ruined my dinner, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I have to take a deep breath.
Now we've been saying that the people pleaser in me just totally clenched up.
I felt terrible. My kids felt confused and my husband goes, you know, into defense of us and I just feel it's worth mentioning.
She then continues onto the hostess stand to ask why she can't be served more wine which made me feel a little better because it seemed we were sort of just next in line for receiving.
So, first of all, I just have flashbacks to so many kind of dinner situations with my kids, especially when they were younger, you know, where I'm like, why am I doing this?
Why did I take them out to dinner?
Or what's wrong with my kids?
I feel like there's a kid over there who's sitting, you know, so kindly, you know, what's wrong with me?
Why am I not a better parent?
What are people thinking?
I mean, there's so things going on as you're just hoping that the kitchen is able to give you the food soon, and you can be lying out of there.
And that's stressful enough, right, I think we all have had these situations in a restaurant and we fear that moment of like someone coming over and confirming our, you know, kind of least generous interpretation of what was going on and then that's literally what happened.
Your children have ruined my dinner and then the kicker, you should be to be ashamed of yourself.
If we just zero in on that moment, if it was like a movie and we press pause, what was going on for you?
What's going on inside your body?
What's going on inside your brain, your thoughts, your worries?
Tell me a little bit more about that.
Yeah, I think, I keep thinking of that part in the matrix when like when everything slows down and there's all the zeroes and the ones.
And like I mentioned, the people pleaser in me just was like crushed.
I immediately start thinking like, well, they ruined our dinner too.
They didn't ruin it, but it was a challenging moment for everyone.
So I felt ashamed, and this is the nurse in me.
I also felt like, what is going on for this person that she's speaking to us that way?
Also, especially in regards to my husband, I just wanted to get us out of there with as little confrontation as possible where his MO is more to defend.
and he did mention to her that she should have some I think dignity is what he said on the way out because she was still at the host of Stokes talking about wine.
So the last piece that I was thinking about was like, how is this going to impact my kids?
Because we've been so lucky to be part of this community and been working on repairing and apologizing and we're getting good at it I think.
But I have no idea, I've thought about it a lot and I've talked to them about it afterwards, but that was something else I was thinking about, like what is, how are they going to feel?
I don't want them to feel ashamed of like reaching for Christmas ornaments in a restaurant, you know?
I think there's so many levels.
There's this narrative about like kids and their behavior and staying in line.
And even though I don't buy into these ideas, Ariana, like there's still this image for me of like the family who can go out to dinner with kids who like sit in their chairs nicely.
And like, you know, order with a please and say, thank you, and put their napkins on their laps.
and unlike my kids eat rice with like a fork not their hands you know that family has like really done something right and like those kids are gonna be successful in life and I have done it all wrong.
There's also I think another level which is just what was I taught growing up about how proper I needed to be about how much space I had to like kind of be a kid versus you know please the people around me by showing off about how compliant I was.
And then there's this last level which you just named that I think a lot about how do we repair with our kids for moments that we didn't cause ourselves, but they're not going to get a repair for or from the person, you know, that they would most directly need it for.
So, let's start with that first one.
What has in general going to dinner been like, kind of when you think about going to dinner with your two young kids, It's just like, what types of things come up for you?
I think about an older, non -mom version of myself, not understanding, perhaps, like what my goal is now is to do the best I can and let these little people be out in society and just do the best I can to keep them occupied.
I don't expect them to sit there.
I don't expect them to say please and thank you every time.
And I see all kinds of different things when I go out.
and I my heart goes out to people who are trying to like, get their kids to use the chopsticks and say please and say thank you.
And I don't know, I think I fall somewhere in the middle of all that at this point.
And like, I think it's just worth like establishing, right?
Like our kid's job really is exploration, right?
They explore a lot, right?
That's why they put everything in their mouth when they're, you know, one and two.
Because that's the way they can really learn about objects.
That's why they crawl all over the place and walk and kind of find things in drawers that they're not supposed to find but do anyway.
And that's why they like to move.
Like, that's why they like playgrounds.
That's why they like to climb on things.
That's why they like to touch things.
That's why they hopefully do see things.
And the rest is like, oh, what's up?
Right? They're learning about the world.
Which is really, really not so conducive with sitting in one place, not wiggling your body and just staying there.
And so I often do think every time we take our kids to some dinner where they have to sit there or some show where they're supposed to like sit, you know, in the seat and just watch one thing, it, you know, it really is at odds with what they're developmentally accomplishing in the other parts of their day, which is learning by doing and learning by touching and learning by exploring.
So just for everyone listening to this is thinking like, yeah, it's a disaster when I go out to dinner with my young kids, there's something really dishaming about realizing, okay, well, that's because my kid's job is to move around and explore.
And sitting at dinner is the opposite of that.
Then another thing is, and I know you probably know this, but I think for me when I've taken my kids out to dinner, I've underestimated how much I needed to like, prepare them for like, what the situation would demand of them.
It's like, I'm just like, yeah, We were just gonna go grab dinner, right?
And, you know, the times that I have paused and been like, oh, what happens at a restaurant when you want food?
Is it like, Oh, I want grilled cheese and here's my grilled cheese.
And just to have my kids say, no it's not like that.
Oh, you have to wait.
It's so annoying. Like whenever I've even done that in the car ride with them or, and this was one of my best moves, oh, what if the chicken fingers aren't like the chicken fingers we make in our house.
And just like starting that circuit, you know.
Like, we've all kind of adapted to restaurants.
And I often do forget to do with my kid.
And then they're sitting and they're like, why is my food not here?
They're like, ugh, I don't like this type of, you know, pasta.
You know, I thought it was gonna look like the one at home.
And sometimes I forget, wait, they just don't have as much world knowledge as I do.
And nobody likes to be surprised, right, by things that aren't going the way they expect.
Sometimes I reflect after or like oh, I probably could do more to like set them up, not for success, so that woman doesn't judge you.
But just for success in terms of understanding what's about to happen.
And I think we were, if we had taken a few minutes to do that, it really might have had an effect, because what our goal was was like, we don't want to cook, we've all had a long day.
Like, let's just eat something.
And like you said, we're adults.
We can handle that.
but if I would have taken five minutes to just sit with my husband and be like, all right, let's do whatever and give them a little bit of more information.
And I, they do really well with that.
And that's also why I mentioned like they were sitting on the bench together.
Like they should have been separated.
Like just a little more thoughtfulness from me beforehand would have had a good effect and would have like felt better for them in their little bodies.
Cause I don't want them to feel bad.
Like they wiggle, right?
Like, they can't sit still, you know?
That's what they're supposed to be doing.
Totally. And I think there's a really nice kind of two things are true here as a parent.
Like, yeah, like, I'm going to try to remember those small kind of reminders or anticipations, right, with my kids and inevitably there's going to be plenty of moments.
I don't do that. We can't do that all the time.
And then, yeah, like, things are probably just going to be a little messier and, you know, a little bit more unruly.
It doesn't mean I'm a bad parent.
It definitely doesn't mean I, you know, have a bad kid.
It means hopefully I get them to bed in a decent time and can sit on the couch and I was like, Oh my God, I was like, I was not what I wanted it to be.
Oh my God. I came and left you a voice note, that's what I saw.
Perfect, well, Izzy, it all worked out.
Okay. Next thing, I'm just curious as context here, and definitely in context in terms of how you ended up responding to this stranger's comment, what were you like when you went out to dinner?
What was expected of you?
Or did you go out to dinner?
Or what would have been like for you if you were wiggling, understandably as a 4 or 5 -year -old.
How would your parents have handled that?
I've been thinking about it and I ask my parents about it because I can't remember.
Everybody just remembers my brother and I sitting there like angels and sometimes we would fall asleep with our heads on the table.
But like, that's the only info I know.
And like a happy little spaghetti, sleepiness.
Exactly. Yeah, and look, I think another context that's important versus when we grow up is our Kids have so much stimulation in their life, right?
Even just growing up with screens, even growing up with probably a lot of them have busier schedules than we had, right?
So, they're at this sport, like you said.
They go to school, then they go to ballet, right?
Or, right, they're used to then going to ballet, maybe come home, and then maybe they get to watch a show, or they have something stimulating in their life.
And generally, sitting at dinner is not very stimulating for a kid.
I actually think it's one of the reasons to practice doing that as a family, just kind of knowing you're inviting in a little bit of a disaster situation because it's good for kids to learn, although the learning takes longer than we wanted to.
Okay, sometimes I do have to slow down my body.
Sometimes I do have periods in my day where it's not about immediate stimulation, it's about just being part of something that's not so fun.
At the same time, though, those moments are harder for kids these days than they were for us when either the option might have been go out to dinner or just like sit on the carpet and, I don't know, like find a piece of wool to twiddle with our thumbs.
Like that's probably was the option for a lot of us.
And we're like, wow, going out to dinner is like really fun and exciting, right?
There wasn't this like screen in our face or there wasn't these, you know, video games to play or there wasn't ballet.
And so the gap in what we expected as kids, probably in what our kids expect, again, doesn't make us bad parents.
doesn't make our kids spoiled kids.
I think we have to appreciate that difference in our kids' bodies around expectation.
Probably again going back to how helpful it is to say to them, this is probably not gonna be your most fun moment of the day.
Let's just get ready for that.
I need to say that to them more.
Yeah. I think that's like really good to own to kids.
And they're like, Well, why are we doing it?
I say to my kids, It's just really important to do things in life that aren't fun all the time.
It just kind of helps us develop into a good solid adult.
I have no better explanation than that, that's why I tell my kids sometimes, you have to unload the dishwasher, what do I have to do it, it's not fun.
I'm like, yeah, that's why, because it's not fun.
It's just a task and we do things sometimes that are not fun.
We can make it more fun together, and same thing at dinner, or we could play a little game or we could play a what's missing or something like that.
But also let's just name a front, yeah, you don't have to like going out to dinner.
Because I don't know if this happens in your house, but I know, for some families I've even worked with, then the narrative is, you don't appreciate this, right?
Like, I'm taking out to dinner, I just got you dessert.
I'm taking you on vacation.
I just bought you this stuffed animal at Disney, right?
I'm doing all these things for you.
Well, so many times, the things that we say we're doing for our kids, there's a lot of difficulty to them managing through those things, and then we kind of act out this resentment when probably our kids on some level are like, yeah, I didn't like really ask to do this.
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Okay, so let's zero in on this moment.
So this woman comes to you after what you already experienced is not such an enjoyable dinner.
And she just goes to the jugular, right?
both, like you ruined my dinner.
And it's just a line, it's so aggressive.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
It's really aggressive.
And your, kind of your anxiety acts up?
Like, yeah, I mean, she just like served me a fresh plate of shame, and like, we didn't ask for her, we didn't know what was coming, like, yeah, but then when it happened, I sort of felt like, oh, this was coming, wasn't it?
Like it was just sort of looming over the drama of the night, and anxiety that I still feel it talking to you, I feel it when I was thinking about talking to you, I feel it if it just popped into my head, but I think I'm able to sit with it in a way.
Just a previous part of me wouldn't have been able to show up like this and talk about it like this.
Yeah. Well, look, I don't know if I've said this yet.
First of all, I'm sorry that happened.
And that just stinks, like flat out that stinks.
Like nobody, nobody wants that to happen.
And also nobody, nobody handles that situation that well, like because it's so aggressive and our body often has learned to freeze in those moments.
It sounds like your husband a little more had like fight or flight activate and you had a little bit more of this freeze, which is a shame response, right?
And one of the interesting things though, any of us who have that freeze response is, I think it gets layered with additional shame after, where we, then, say the next day, like, why didn't I even say anything?
Like, what's wrong with me?
Oh, that's where I went there.
Right. I think understanding that's really important, that none of us change through shame.
Shaming ourselves is actually activating this animal defense -free state.
Even being able to say hi after to the shame.
So, it doesn't layer on is really important.
Very few people react in a way that they're really proud of, holistically after when they're met with such aggression.
And I probably learned when I heard offensive comments to kind of pause.
I must have learned that that was the best of all possible reactions.
And I need to appreciate that in my history before my body's able to move forward in a different way.
That's so helpful. I think, I think I knew that on some level, but you just like spelling it out like that.
Like it was, that's a coping skill and like a survival skill, right.
Like just freeze, like this is aggressive.
Just freeze and we don't have to fix it or do anything.
Like just stay safe, you know?
I love that. So helpful.
You said something really powerful.
Is like, this woman served you this plate of shame.
And I don't know about you but I have an image of like a waiter or waitress like bringing me this plate.
And like, yeah, what do we say to ourselves when people say things that in some way We have this vulnerability to take in, but it's like we're fighting our history.
We're like, I know I don't have to be ashamed of myself.
I know kids develop and my kids are just young, but also there's this voice of like, She's right.
She's right. You haven't done it.
Right? And we're like whoring with ourselves.
I heard that conversation in my head.
Yeah. So maybe we'll come up with something together.
We'll go step one, step two, and there's no right answer.
So we'll just co -create it.
So for me, step one is putting my feet on the ground and like my hand on my heart, and just taking in a breath that has a longer out breath than in breath, which is like such a powerful trick to know about our body.
Like you fool your body into activating the parasympathetic nervous system.
So it's a way of your body saying like, well wait, this isn't an emergency, right?
Cause like, so saying like, every time I do it, even now, I was like, wow, I feel calmer.
So that's step one, what might step two be after you kind of have a little bit of groundedness, what might you say to your self?
To really give a little bit more distance between this person's comment and your truth I just thought of bringing it back to the platter of shame I just know that like this is to make it an object like a ball Someone's trying to throw to you and I do not have to catch this ball like like I see you I hear you I'm doing my deep breathing and you can take your platter somewhere else and we'll send it into the universe and nobody...
something like that.
Yeah. And for everyone listening, what you just did, I don't even know if you noticed you did it, but I saw it on video and I think about this all the time with my kids, when they say stuff I don't really want to absorb, is like you literally moved out of the way.
I do this all the time, especially when I'm trying to reprocess something.
Like I literally imagine the shame platter coming my way, or maybe it is a ball being thrown at me.
I'm not going to spend my energy swatting it away, because that's also energy.
But I don't have to stay there and have it enter me.
Just as active and for everyone listening, I'm literally moving my body as if I'm like moving away from a ball that's thrown at me.
I always look at it.
I'm just watching it past me.
There it is. That's step 1.
Step 1 is take a deep breath.
Step 2, really imagine this thing.
Whoever's serving it to you, Notice that it's coming your way and really move out of the way and then I think some simple words like it Sounds so obvious, but we need to hear it What other people say about me isn't necessarily true or?
That person thinks I should be ashamed of myself I know I'm a good parent whose kids were a little bit rowdy at dinner Yeah, you know or like you said sometimes it is helpful to gain distance to say wow I was just like a pawn in that person's chessboard.
I must have been an actor in that person's play.
That person must have had parents who are so harsh to them.
And they were just reliving something from their past.
This had nothing to do with me.
And then I want to talk, Ariana, about what you mentioned before, which is how do we repair with our kids for moments that happen that they pick up on and that don't feel good and they're not going to get that repair for us?
So we have to give ourselves, I think, I think, just again, that compassion and understanding of our body, I might not do that right away.
My body needs time to unfreeze.
I need to get to that place again where I'm like, wait, I'm safe, I'm breathing, this is not a me thing, I'm watching this kind of shame pass by.
So tell me what you have said to your kids.
And again, there's no right way or if you're like, yeah, I have, and I don't know exactly what to say, I'm happy to brainstorm together.
I talked to my older daughter about it in a quieter moment before bedtime that night And I just asked her how it made her feel and she said it made me feel sad and took all of my energy and work that I've done just to not try and fix the hat or comfort.
And I just said it made me feel sad too.
And I told her that that person was having a hard time and that we are good and, you know, we're okay and you're safe.
And I don't remember exactly, but she then like moved on and asked like, what book are we reading tonight?
but I knew that it was in there and I think I mentioned something similar to my younger daughter, but she didn't give me the feedback that I did to sort of try and say some of those words, just to try and make space in her brain to know that something happened, it didn't feel good, and we're okay.
I think you crushed it.
I really mean I think you totally crushed it and I think this is something whether it's a stranger at a restaurant or sometimes it's a grandparent, or sometimes for some people it's their co -parent.
Where repairing for someone who can't do the repair is really centering our kid's experience.
It's like, wait, my kid noticed something, my kid absorbed something that didn't feel good and that moment where they felt kind of scared or confused or alone, it doesn't really matter at this point who, put that moment there, I can help my child not live with this kind of free floating confusion and anxiety.
And that's really what talking about these things does.
So I think you did an amazing job.
I think another thing I say a lot to my kids is like, you noticed blank, right?
You noticed that that woman said these really harsh words about your behavior at the restaurant.
And then I don't know why maybe I do, but I'm obsessed with this phrase, it's just like, you are right to notice that.
Like, I feel like it's saying like, yeah, that really happened.
That thing that you were like putting together, you perceive that correctly.
I think I just, I feel like so many adults, a thing they struggle with most is self trust.
Like do I really feel the things I feel?
Did I pick up on something or am I making a big deal out of nothing?
And I think generation of kids who are raised with like you were right to notice that.
It just feels so heartening.
So I try to say that a lot to my kids.
And again, we could say that if we have a co -parent who yells at our kid and really struggles to repair, hey, you noticed mom, you noticed dad, yelled at you, like that happened, you were right to notice that, and I'm sure that registered for you and felt scary, and I'm not even throwing anyone under the bus, I'm just centering my kids' confusion or threat or fear and letting them know they're not alone, and that's what they need, you know, like you said, more than fixing it, is just letting them know that they perceived something accurately and that they were allowed to have a feeling about it.
I love like just the objectivity of that.
And like then there's not blame anywhere, but just like, I see you in this moment that feels bad or whatever it feels like, I'm going to definitely use that phrase more.
Look. And I can say to you, you were right to notice something that was really messed up and really hurtful and triggering.
And you seem to have handled that in such a powerful, beautiful, a growth producing way for everyone.
And I'm really glad you shared this with us.
I know so many of us have been there.
And what's amazing is I think the next time anyone here right now is there, they're gonna be a little bit more prepared to manage that situation and manage the way they feel after.
So thank you. Thanks for listening.
To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside .com slash podcast.
You could also write me at podcast at goodinside .com.
Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected.
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It's totally game -changing.
Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Noosom at Magnificent Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knatt and Kristen Muller.
I would also like to thank Eric Kabelski, Mary Panico, Ashley Valenzuela and the rest of the Good Inside team.
And one last thing before I let you go.
Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.
Today's episode is in partnership with Life 360 and Camp.
