I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside.
I feel sort of like a panicky feeling and doubt.
I guess is the biggest thing I feel, doubt that is she maybe not ready or am I attached too much to her anxiety and can't separate myself from her feelings.
But I think the biggest thing for me is just doubting whether or not I'm making the right decision.
I don't know, it feels hard to see her react like that.
Back to school. It is such an anxiety filled time.
Whether you have a toddler who's starting school for the first time or a kindergartener who's making that huge transition to elementary school or maybe you just have an anxious kid where separation is often full of protest and tears.
It makes sense that this time of year is full of questions and worries.
Today I talk to a mom who's thinking about her daughter's upcoming transition and the way to manage it best.
We'll be right back. So recently my family took a weekend trip out of the city and we booked a place on Airbnb.
And I noticed something I wanted to share with you.
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These are things my kids don't have at home.
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The house itself felt like a vacation.
And I'm telling you this for a really important reason.
As my kids were so happy in this house with all of this new stuff that my husband and I actually got time to talk to each other while sitting on a couch and so we kind of had our own vacation.
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I just don't want to keep this family vacation win a secret because it's so hard to have a vacation that actually feels good to everyone.
I've been an Airbnb fan for a long time now.
And it's really been the thing.
It helps my family vacations feel like a vacation.
Well, at least some of the time.
And that's really the best wherever you're going to get.
Hi Megan. Hi Dr. Becky. So nice to meet you.
You too. So yeah, tell me what's going on.
So I have a daughter who's almost six and she's going into first grade and she's a little bit nervous about starting first grade.
But our real struggle is we want her to write the bus this year and every time we bring it up, she kind of freaks out, starts crying.
And it can't even really talk about it, you know, in the sense, oh, I wonder what it would be like if you wrote the bus, you know, just hypothetically, she just won't have any of it.
And yeah, I'm so such her how to approach it with her.
And then also my own feelings is it's not necessary on our part for her to write the bus like we could technically still pick her up.
So I don't know, just not sure where to start with that.
Okay, let me kind of mirror that back to you.
Can tell me how accurate it is.
Your daughter's starting in a school where the bus is available.
She seems really resistant to the bus so much so that you can even really have a conversation with her about it.
And it sounds like I'm kind of reading between the lines here, but you're thinking, I mean, technically, I could drive her, but I definitely would rather not.
Exactly. Yes. Exactly right.
Like it would be a pretty big imposition to drive her slash, it would give you back a lot of time to not have to drive her yourself.
Exactly. We live about 30 minutes from the school.
So we're planning to take her there, of course, every morning, but, you know, two and from H.A.
is two hours out of our day, and we did that for pre-king kindergarten, but for first grade, we're kind of ready to scale that back a little bit.
And so she's been to this school.
The school itself is known to her.
The bus though is completely new.
Correct. Yeah. Okay. And just give me a little bit of baseline of what her separations like at school.
It's actually fine. When she started pre-K there, she, I mean, she was a little bit nervous, but I mean, I would say within the first week or two, she would, okay, buy and just walk in and we didn't have, we haven't had any problems like in terms of separation, anxiety of her actually being dropped off at school.
Okay. So separations pretty okay there.
And in terms of the bus, had she had just, so I know that she had bad experiences on buses, oh, we're on this public bus before something bad happened or she saw a school bus crashed or anything bus specific that.
No, she's never been on a bus in any capacity.
Yeah. And I think her anxiety from it is just not knowing anyone on the bus.
And I know for a fact, she won't know anybody on the bus.
So like, maybe she is right.
I can't offer false hope there about that.
Okay. Well, if we could wave a magic wand right now and then say, okay, something's going to happen in the next 20 or so minutes when we're talking and by the end, we're going to figure out how to blank.
How would you fill in that blank?
Like what is your most desired outcome?
Well, I know that I'm not here to change her response, but I guess what I want to take away from it is feeling more confident in setting that boundary with her.
You need to ride the bus.
You're going to ride the bus knowing that, you know, it's not a life or death situation.
I, yes, I could drive her, but this is our decision.
So I guess feeling stronger in my decision and being able to hold that even when she's pushing back and crying and I feel bad.
Great. I'm definitely a pragmatist and I feel like actually we'll get there.
Like I definitely feel because what I hear from you is, you know, something I think that's general that applies to all parents and all kids in different moments.
My kid is resisting doing something.
It's not something where I'm worried about their safety.
It's not something that I think is going to be this like maker-break thing for the rest of their life.
I have my own hesitation around it because I know my kid is going to struggle a little bit.
And actually what you said, Megan, that's so heartening is, I know I can't change my child's reaction.
Right? Unconsciously, we often think that's the goal of thinking, how can I just make them be happy about the bus?
And then I won't feel guilty.
But in a way, then we're just using our kid as a pawn.
There's always like in our own emotion regulation game, like they're helping us not feel stressed or guilty.
Where what you're saying is, how can I be the most confident, sturdiest leader for my child?
Knowing I'm asking her to do something that is not going to be hugely detrimental, but is going to be uncomfortable.
That's my favorite thing to help parents with.
So thank you. This is like, you know, this is exactly where I like to be.
Okay. So let's start where I feel like at least for me, I can't decide if we always start, let's start with you.
Okay? I know. I know my kid kind of, you know?
So what comes up for you when I paint this scenario?
Okay? And we'll talk about how to even get here.
It's that first day. And it's the bus.
And I guess she's not taking the bus there, but maybe on the drive to school.
I don't want to take the bus.
I don't want to take the bus.
And then you're like waiting after school and you're thinking, oh my goodness is she?
How did she get on the bus?
And did she even go? Or, you know, was she kicking and screaming?
What comes up for you in terms of feelings, sensations, thoughts, worries, self talk about the type of parent you are, just whatever comes to mind?
I, I feel sort of like a panicky feeling and doubt.
I guess is the biggest thing I feel doubt that is she may be not ready or is am I attached too much to her anxiety and can't separate myself from her feelings.
But I think the biggest thing for me is just doubting whether or not I'm making the right decision only because it's my decision to make.
It's not dictated by my work schedule or some other factor like lack of transportation.
It's something that I am making for my own convenience.
Yeah. And no other real reason.
And obviously our family too.
And so I just, I don't know, it feels hard to see her react like that to, yeah, something that's just for us.
And so I'm going to push you on that a little bit and you tell me if this resonates.
Like, I just think really selfish here.
Like, is this just, you know, I'm letting my kid freak out because I just don't want to drive.
Is that, is that resonated all?
Yes, 100%. Like what a good parent likes to be like, oh, it's no big deal.
Just drive my kid. I decided to have this child.
So like might as well help her out.
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's, especially since we haven't been talking about it, I feel, you know, maybe I should have built it up a little bit earlier before instead of, you know, a few weeks before we start school.
So it's just kind of just doubting my approach to it and whether or not it should happen at all and knowing that I'm directly, well, not directly, but causing her to feel this way, this discomfort around it.
Yeah, we can, we can play with that word causing, but I'm not, it doesn't even matter.
I know what you're saying.
So what is it like for you in general if we zoom out a little for you?
What is it like for you to prioritize yourself amidst kind of your family and your kids needs?
How good are you at that?
It's difficult. I do, I have gotten better at actually doing it, following through on it.
Thanks to you. But inside, I still really struggle with it.
I, I think I should need less or I shouldn't need this many breaks.
I shouldn't need this much space.
I shouldn't need what I need for myself.
So I guess for me, I have issues around the quantity and at the time for myself that I take and whether or not it's an acceptable amount for someone to want.
Yeah, which I think this is where we are.
Is this like the right thing to do?
Okay, I know it's good to be a sturdy leader and to some degree, I can't pour myself out all the time and expect myself to be filled up, but is this, like, is this too much?
Is this like, you know, my kid is freaking out.
They can't even talk about it.
It's just a car ride. Like where does this fit in that equation?
Right? The first thing I want to say about that is we never get certainty.
Like I think, I think the, the wish is I'm going to get to this point and be like, no, actually not driving my child.
Like that is like within the right amount, right?
Either we're someone who kind of questions how much we're allowed to take care of ourselves or we're someone who doesn't question it that much.
Most of us are people who question it, especially moms.
But if you are in that bucket of, I do tend to question whether, you know, this is too much or the right amount or are the kind of impacts and consequences on someone greater than the benefit to me.
If I'm someone who thinks about that and Megan, it sounds like you are, to really important to say to yourself, I'm never going to solve that equation.
I'm never going to get to certainty.
The best thing I can do is just to start to notice that thought process when it comes up.
Oh, there's that way of kind of trying to weigh, you know, the pros and cons.
There's that question of, is it too much?
So I thought about you to mirror that back to me just to practice hearing your own voice, say something like that to yourself.
Either, oh, there I go wondering if it's too much or there's that question again.
Sure. I guess if I brought it up with her, you know, hey, we're thinking about riding the bus this year, went on the way home from school and she starts, you know, throwing a fit about it.
I know I'll immediately start panicking and then I could think, you know, here I go and noticing they don't come up for myself.
The questioning and I don't know as to whether or not it's something that's okay to do.
Great. Because here's what's natural to do, which never leaves us in the good place.
The doubt takes over the driver's seat.
And then what we do next is we usually say something like, I don't know, this probably isn't worth it.
And then we don't do the thing we might need to do to ourselves, for ourselves, versus kind of noticing that the doubt is coming up and almost just saying hi to it.
Like, it's kind of like that person at a party or like if you do get sucked into a corner with them, like you're just going to be talking nonsense, you know, and the answer isn't to totally avoid them.
But like we definitely don't want to be caught in a whole conversation with them.
And what we kind of want to do is say, you know, I don't know, hi Heather.
There you are again, always wanting to kind of talk about this thing.
And what it does is it acknowledges that kind of guilt or wanting to like get it right part of you without giving it too much air time.
And I actually do think there's something to naming this as like a name.
I do that for myself, like with my own anxiety, right?
I was going to be like, hey Susan, you again, right?
Is it also like you can't even say that without laughing and adding something playful to that moment actually really lightens the mood?
Do you have a good name? What should she be called?
Um, I don't know. Cynthia.
Great. Love it. Love a good Cynthia.
Love it. That's a great.
Okay. Do I like I should and here watch me walk through this Megan, right?
So, um, okay, and we're going to get to this, but a big part of me wants that time to myself.
I don't really want to be spending 230 to 330 traveling because that hour in my day, I don't know, I'm guessing I get think of a hundred things I'd rather be doing than that.
And that isn't a way of saying, I don't love my daughter.
It's literally just speaking about how I'm using my time in the day.
So there's that. So I kind of come from that place.
I imagine my child protesting or I imagine myself telling her, nope, not picking her up.
She is taking the bus and then Cynthia is going to come up and Cynthia is going to say to me, oh, Megan, I don't know.
Is this too much? I mean, it's just an hour and you have other times you could do something and you did take that walk at 10 a.m.
So I don't know why you need 230 to three and Cynthia always has a million different things to say and she's very crafty.
She's very convincing, right?
And her job, honestly, in my system is probably to get me back into only taking care of other people mode, which probably has a role sometimes.
But as long as I know she's going to pop up, she's probably going to feel a little less convincing and she's just going to be a little less likely to kind of take over the driver's seat in my car.
Yes. And so we're going to get ready for Cynthia, okay?
But this is important, Cynthia isn't the person making your decision and she's not the person who's going to share whatever decision you make with your daughter.
Can we talk about family schedules for a second?
You know those days when you're like, wait, who is soccer?
Wait, what's for dinner?
Oh no. Which parent is taking?
Which kid do a dentist appointment?
Okay. So all the time, so many moments of panic.
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I know back to school season can be stressful and I want you to hear something very relieving for me.
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All right Megan this conversation me and you right now is happening in a perfect time because I want to do a little bit of a role reversal.
Okay. So the other night I went to dinner with friends and the dinner was at seven and so like I was going to have to miss my son's bedtime.
And frankly I've been working a lot recently.
Okay so I basically didn't see him before he went to camp.
I saw him for a little bit before he went to camp all day.
I was actually working when he got home and then I had dinner with my friends and the day before I was actually traveling for work and so didn't see him early in the morning.
I had a leave super early and I didn't get home after he went to bed.
And so yesterday right before I was going to have dinner he was like what are you doing?
Like you're never here.
Like put me to bed. Like why are you going to dinner with your friends?
He's old enough now that he uses these words where he's piercing.
And I had dinner on the calendar with friends that I haven't seen in a while and we were organizing it and I'm sitting there honestly.
And he's like I'm all for self-care but like me too.
I think my Cynthia was like back it's like too much and I kind of fast forwarded the next couple weeks and I was like I'm traveling then.
And I also have a dinner here right at like all of these moments set up.
So truly like if we were going to switch seats like what?
What is that elicit in you?
Like just back to me. Or do you help me?
Or do you tell me? It sounds like you have intentionally cut all time for yourself and now it's time to honor that time you're seeing some push back from your kid and you're maybe doubting yourself as to whether or not you've crossed the line or is it worth it?
You know, should you really prioritize the bedtime and just doubting where you're allocating your time?
Yeah. And if I was going to push you further, I'm like Megan just tell me what to do.
Which I cancel my dinner.
Like do I, you know, like do I put him to bed?
Do I show up late to dinner?
Like just tell me. Yes. I would say, I would dig for my scripts here.
I would say, you know, I love you and I have already made these plans with my friends.
And so I'm going to go out to dinner with them and your dad's going to do your bedtime or, you know, babysitter or whatever.
And I will see you whenever the next time would be morning or at breakfast.
Yeah. And when he is protesting bedtime, right in terms of like wanting me to do it and not being there.
Is there any other way you feel like I can meet like his need?
If we assume maybe the need is not just about bedtime.
Is there another way I can meet that need besides staying home that night?
Like what might he be really saying to me?
I think maybe that he wants to have more time with you just in general.
So I'm just going to pause there.
I think that's, I think that's exactly right.
Our kids don't say this.
Frankly, we don't say this to people when we're upset.
We usually get very specific too.
But I think he's saying like I miss you.
I want special time with you.
You know, I want, you know, more time with you.
And to me that translation matters a lot because then instead of being locked into, do I cancel or not?
Or instead of you being locked into, do I pick her up or not?
You can broaden it to maybe I'm not taking care of my need or my kids need.
But maybe I can take care of my need and think of a different way to meet her need.
What do you think your daughter is saying if we broaden around the bus just in terms of her and you?
What is the end of school like?
Like what do you think she might be saying to you around that?
Well, I think since it is a longer drive and it would typically just be me that's picking her up and we may or may not have a conversation.
And maybe to her that's kind of a special time that's just her and I together, which doesn't happen often with her little brother around.
And then also I could maybe see it, you know, she's been at school all day.
She's kind of been on edge or maybe, you know, just responding to what's around her and not, not relaxing.
And then she gets on this bus, which is another heightened situation for her.
She's not comfortable.
And so it's kind of just prolonging that.
Yeah. I'm not totally safe.
Yeah. Yeah. After school, she's like, I want some connection with you.
I want to, you know, go from school to safety, not school to, you know, one more thing to have to manage.
Now, here is where I think the beauty of like more flexible thinking can happen where we can get out of, do I do something for her?
Do I do something for me?
Because anytime we're deciding that like nobody wins, honestly, you're like, fine, I'll pick you up.
I guess in the moment, I feel like a good parent, but like I'm basically going to be resenting my child for the next nine months.
And we all know how that goes.
And then my child also on some level doesn't really watch themselves become capable with something that they didn't think they were capable of.
To me, there's no better gift I can give my kid than leading them on a path where they end up seeing I was capable of doing something I didn't think I could do.
Like that is the greatest gift I think I can give them, which requires just enough support, just enough distance and requires a lot of I see you as capable of doing something before you can see yourself as capable.
I think even if, you know, you were dying to pick her up at the end of school, there could be reason to say, you know what, this could be a really important growth moment for my daughter.
Like maybe this is actually the best thing for her because it sets the stage in general for her to watch herself feel more capable.
Right? Now, the fact that you also don't particularly want to, to me, is like the most amazing win-win because you can give her that capability long term and you can get an hour back in your day.
And based on what we're saying before, I think there's a way to like thread the needle to say, okay, maybe I'm not meeting the exact need she wants by picking her up.
Just like I did not meet my son's need and put him to bed.
I'm going to say that I did go out to dinner at my friends and I was not late.
Okay? Both of those things are true.
But I also said to myself, I'm going to put him to bed tomorrow night and not only that, I'm going to do a couple other things on the calendar, but I think are extra special because I think he's saying through this protest that he has a need that I can meet more flexibly so that I can also meet the need I have in my adult life.
Does that make sense? So I want to go over all of those things, okay?
One. When we have a situation, especially, it comes up with kids who are anxious all the time.
To me, the most important thing when our kids are anxious is, can I both validate their anxiety and see a more capable version of themselves than they can access in that moment?
Both of those things matter.
So I'm going to model that.
I'm going to model ways when I'm not doing that and then how am I doing that?
Hey, I think you're going to take the bus.
Yeah. Is that okay? Is that okay?
I think that's good, right?
Okay. First of all, what I'm doing there is I'm kind of asking my kid for permission to make a decision.
And I'm really saying to my kid, I'm basically as nervous as you are.
We're just kind of in an anxiety spiral together.
Our version, which I often don't really recommend, is I know you're really nervous.
I know you're nervous. Of course you're nervous.
Okay, there's nothing like harmful about this, but I just want to model that next to something else.
I know you're really nervous about the bus.
I also know in a couple days you're going to get used to it.
Both are true. I know. You don't want to take the bus.
I know it's not the thing you wanted.
And I know I hear you as soon as I bring it up.
You cry and you scream and I know that's very real.
And listen to me. And I know you're a kid who can do hard things, who can watch yourself do something you didn't think you can do.
And I know the bus is going to fall in that category.
I want you to hear I know this feels so hard and I know you're going to be able to do it.
To me, I always think one foot in validation and the other foot in hope or kind of in like seeing my kids capability.
So tell me your reaction to that and maybe Megan, mirror back to me a version of what you would say to your daughter that is kind of almost more validation or joining her anxiety versus hearing yourself say something that's that one foot in validation and another foot in hope.
Got it. So I actually, it's funny because I think I sort of lean more towards getting stuck in the validation side.
I would say something I've said things like, I know you're really nervous about the bus.
I know it's something new.
When I was a kid, I was really nervous about the bus.
All the validation tools.
You're amazing. Hey, Puss.
Love it. And but then I, I don't know, that's where I struggle.
So I could see myself instead of getting stuck on that saying, I know you're really nervous about the bus.
You know, that makes sense.
It's a new, a new thing for you.
You've never done it. I know that you can do it.
I've seen you do other things before that were hard.
Puss. Love it. Crushed it.
Crushed it. And like having a little formula makes sense.
It's like, I need to do the validation part and I need to hold the hope part, right?
And I know you've probably heard me say this, but our kids respond to the version of themselves we reflect back.
Like constantly where our kids mirror, we kind of show them who they are.
And so we want to validate their feelings that is important for them to learn regulation and form confidence.
But if we can't see a capable version of our kid, they don't see it reflected back.
And I think we often do most of us.
We forget to explicitly name that.
And after we name that, that's usually just the pause for now.
And you probably will have to hold that version of her for longer than you want, right?
It's not just going to be a day.
Right, the realist. It's not.
And she really might cry, right?
But to me, that is the core strategy for how to deliver the decision.
Now, now let's talk to Cynthia.
Okay, because then Cynthia's going to come up and she's like, I don't know.
I don't know. Okay, I did the whole thing, but like it's not that big of a deal.
Right? And you're going to say, okay, this is what you do.
This is what you do. You make me doubt it.
And then I think Megan, it's super helpful.
Just turn her mind yourself.
I'm not picking just me over my kid.
This is actually a decision that's aligned with my kid's best interests.
Because it actually sounds Megan that you do believe she will be able to cope with this.
She really doesn't want to.
She sounds a good resilient kid.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have no doubt that if she would just get on the bus for a little while, she would be totally fine.
And so I would remind herself of that.
I think you know as a parent, definitely as a good inside parent, short term gain with our kid is not necessarily the thing that sets them up for life resilience.
Often it's actually having the support you need to embrace challenges, which means crying sometimes and protesting.
That actually sets you up to be the kind of adult who has the self talk of, I've done hard things so many times.
I've watched myself think I can't do something and then I've watched myself do that thing.
Oh, I did all that because of, you know, all the ways my parent interacted with me.
And now I know I'm going to be able to get this project done at work.
I know I'm going to be able to get through this hard stage in life.
So I actually really believe this is a huge win win.
And I know it sounds funny, but I think Cynthia needs you in that party.
Be like, hey, I hear you.
Of course you're saying the thing you need to say.
And I know this is not a short term win win.
This is actually a short term lose lose.
I feel guilty and my child is protesting.
Nobody's winning now. But this is actually a longer term win win for both of us.
Okay, the last thing I want to get to is how we can kind of meet some of your child's needs during that bus ride or after.
So if you know she's kind of looking for you in some way, what's a way, you know, you could impart me that need without picking her up.
Well, I've, she's really been into like listening to audiobook podcasts for kids.
And so I thought about coming up with a way for her to listen to something while she's on the bus.
I don't know. Great. I don't know if I would record myself or something like that, but I love that idea.
I love that. I really, I love that idea so much.
And like, something's going to be simple.
You know, like you could write or I know every day you put it in her backpack for the ride home.
You're going to put a picture of the two of you.
Oh, I know it's not the same.
It's also different than not having the picture, right?
It's just like, I always think about that concept.
I don't know if you've taken our sleep workshop, but this idea of infusing your presence into your child's room because when it's similar, sleep separation, school separation, right?
Your kids want you and sometimes, frankly, you don't really want to be there, right?
As we said, so okay, there's a lot between being there physically and not being there.
And infusing your presence in ways, right?
Same thing with sleep, with separation, with sleepovers.
Kids who are anxious in general need a little more support when a parent can't be there.
So all those ways that we mentioned are a way again.
It's like me going to dinner, but making sure I do something with my son the next day.
I'm meeting the actual need rather than the specific way it's surfacing.
Does that make sense? Yes.
Yeah, absolutely. Then, you know, the last thing I would recommend you doing is the way you deliver your decision to your child.
To me, it's like one of the most important things because they'll feed off how confident you feel and how confident you sound.
And to me, one of the most underutilized strategies for parenting is just like practicing in front of a mirror or practicing into a voice recorder and playing it back to yourself.
And then you'll hear, you're like, I do not sound like I had so much conviction in that.
I forgot the hope piece.
I only did the validation piece, right?
I think that is something that I would just do a couple times.
And then I would gear yourself up.
I'd do some jumping jacks to get your adrenaline up a little bit.
I'd be like, today's the day.
And I'm going to share that I've made this decision.
I've made this decision because at the end of the day, I am the pilot of this plane.
And sometimes passengers have requests.
They even have loud demanding requests.
But I think we all know like none of us want to pilot his letting a passenger tell them where to land, right?
Right. Right. And so when I think practicing the delivery of that will be really helpful in setting the stage for everything that comes next.
Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast.
You could also write me at podcast at goodinside.com.
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Goodinside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Nat and Kristen Muller.
I would also like to thank Eric Kabelsky, Mary Panico, and the rest of the goodinside team.
And one last thing before I let you go.
Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves.
Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.
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