The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
Welcome to Raising Good Humans.
I'm Dr Aliza Pressman and I am just.
I don't even think I need to give an introduction to the incredible, wonderful friend I have on today, Jennifer Garner.
We love her, all of us.
She's every mom.
So I thought this would be a real treat, especially because this is my pub week.
If you have not purchased The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans.
Today is the day to get it.
It will arrive.
It will finally be here.
I'm so excited.
Please order it.
And don't forget to let me know.
Take a picture, post it on Instagram, and you can tag me at Raising Good Humans Podcast.
I want to know that you've checked it out, that you're sharing it with the world, and that we can all have a little bit more relief, ease and guidance.
I am here for you.
And it's finally here, and I know I've been talking about it endlessly.
So thank you.
I'm so excited that you're going to have this.
And if you enjoy this episode, do not hesitate to subscribe, rate, and write a little review.
Here's Jennifer Garner.
Put your hand on your heart.
Do you know that when you put your hand on your heart, it is comforting in the same way that a hug is?
Or take a deep breath into your nose, gently push your lips and go out and now say Aliza, I love you girl.
Jen, I love you, girl.
Aliza, I love you, girl.
Jen, I love you, girl.
I love you, girl.
Okay, I think, I mean... That was a good start.
Yeah.
Do you know what I've noticed about your book?
Okay, so your book.
It's so hard to sell something or to have something coming out because you really do have to link at the marketplace, and then you have to do it again and again.
But there's a lot that you haven't talked about.
And as your biggest fan and as your number one subscriber, listener, all the above...
I think let's focus on some of those things today.
I'm so excited.
I keep talking about the same things.
I would love to talk about something else.
Yeah.
Let's talk about other things.
Like, for example, let's talk about all the nuggets that you have in here.
For example, you offer 150 ways to regulate.
And you talk about the importance of regulation.
And, you know, you can give us a little bit about that.
But then I'd love to go in and look at all the different opportunities you give parents to regulate in the carpool line.
Before you address a child that you think may have been smoking, before you deal with a child who's having a tantrum, or a scary thing is happening in the world and you have to talk to your kids about it.
Or there's so many opportunities.
Little nuggets.
And I think it's important to let people know that those are available here in this brilliant book, The Five Principles of Parenting.
Some of them are.
You really are into a thing where what's it called?
Where, like you spell out an acronym.
I never was into acronyms, but Dan Siegel's so into acronyms.
And he was like, he built things.
He's like, that's how people remember things.
So I've been trying to do acronyms.
Well, we like to follow what Dan says.
We like to follow what Dan says.
Dan knows what he's talking about.
I was like, I guess that works.
And then it turns out you can make anything an acronym.
It really is.
Yeah.
If you think about it enough.
I have so many more that I didn't put in because my editor was like, I think we're good.
I bet.
I want them.
Will you give them to me?
Can I get a special?
Discarded acronyms.
Okay.
Sorry.
Look at my, look at my book.
Yeah, I feel like I could just take a picture of that and it would be epic.
This is what I want to say here about your book.
Just to start off, this is Jen's review.
I was trying to read it as someone who is going to need to talk to you about it.
By the way, it's my second reading.
I read it the first time before I wrote a little something for somewhere.
The back.
Okay.
Why am I not on the front?
No, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
So I was trying to read it.
And take notes and pay attention.
And really what I found out was that I have an 18 of 15 and an almost 12 year old.
And I'm still so hungry for this information.
And it feels so relevant and pertinent to me right now as a parent in this moment that I would get distracted and just keep a list of questions I have for you about my kids on the side.
And it just really brought to mind wow, when is the last time I sat down and went over values with my kids and thought about it?
We did it when they were little, but where are they?
What were they?
And do they...
Do they still apply or do we need to come up with some new ones?
What are my boundaries around this or around that?
And have I really spoken to my kids about it and made it clear so that we're all on the same page?
Have I spoken to my kids about what I expect without offering a bit of something that I don't think that I have, but I think I must, which is perfectionism?
I think you might.
I think I might, because my daughter is always like you say you don't sweat my grades because, Because you don't have to.
Because I don't have to.
Yeah.
Right.
Because that's the kind of kid she is having nothing to do with me.
But what am I then imposing on my other two kids who are great students as well, but still?
What am I imposing on them that isn't fair?
And have I had that conversation with them?
And am I focusing on the right things when I talk to them about this kind of stuff?
All of this and more is right here in the book, including some really beautiful nuggets that I just keep folding down the pages for all of these little mindful moments, including these great acronyms that you came up with.
Games balance bad.
And then you just add different things in here that I've maybe heard at some point, but they're all in one place, which I really appreciate, like the noticing exercise, the hand on the heart exercise just like me the Buddhist practice.
Kind of the Buddhist mantras and different regulation exercises.
So take us through one that maybe you've forgotten about, or I have them all noted and I can do it if you've forgotten them all.
Well, I will say, first of all, thank you, obviously.
But I...
I want to tell you that to go back, I'm going to go to the regulation thing, but just to say that in writing this, I ended up being like I haven't gone back to the values conversation in my family.
Kind of like what is our family value statement and what is their individuals and they're older now.
And I definitely had that same like, we should revisit this.
Okay, so I have a question for you.
Pardon us if some of this skews teenagery.
That's where we are and we know each other's teens.
And so they go to school together.
So if you try to have that conversation with your girls, I mean, they're your daughter.
So I'm sure they're used to this nonsense.
But how much will they give you an eye roll and then comply?
Or are you in for it?
I have to choose when.
Okay.
And it's definitely when we're, when nobody's busy.
Like I don't interrupt them and say like we need to take a break because I want to sit down and do a family mission Stephen.
And not when they're upset.
But if like I say it, let's do this activity.
We did it for New Year's.
That was our.
Let's figure out this year not only what's our family, one of the just our little unit, but what's your individual one.
Mm-hmm.
And they took it really seriously.
And it was interesting just thinking about temperament.
My older daughter and my younger daughter.
Their personal mission statements and value statements were like as if they've never met.
And they were willing to share this with you.
And they were willing to share it.
And if they hadn't wanted to share it with you, you would have been okay with that?
Yeah, I would have said, let's just, we'll come back to it.
I just would love for you guys to think about it.
Man, a tradition is a nice thing, isn't it?
It is.
A tradition like a New Year's Eve, my kids and I always do something.
I mean, I'm not even sure exactly what it is.
They kind of remind me.
But I think we write down something we want to let go of something, we want to manifest, something we're grateful for whatever, and throw it in the fire.
And they never show it to me. boy, do I want to see what that is.
In the morning.
I wish for the Mary Poppins, like taped up thing to come back down and tell me that it's really Mary Poppins.
But I, you know, I let them have their privacy, whatever you say to.
Many times, by the way, when I do because of what they're used to, they're like don't do the professional parenting, please.
And they know that's the thing that gets me the most crazy, because of course I'm like I don't ever want them to feel that this gig is somehow.
They're experimental objects.
Yes,
So when, for example, my daughter gets in the car and is, you know, talking about something unpleasant about her day, I have to be so careful not to say something that sounds scripted in any way, shape or form.
And I basically am just like, don't speak, don't speak.
You know, what's amazing is that the rest of us are being so careful to try to sound like you.
And you're being so careful to try to sound like anyone but you.
Exactly.
Yes, it's true.
I don't want any whisper of whatever it is that people think I might say.
Right.
It'll get you in trouble.
Because I think ultimately, if it seems like you have an agenda.
Oh, man.
Gosh, is that the truth?
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Just on the mission thing, and then we'll move on in case it matters.
I love how you offer up that people should just let it rip.
Come up with whatever you want to come up with.
Don't limit yourself.
Don't be high-minded about it.
If it's playing with Legos, let it be playing with Legos.
If it's knock-knock jokes, let it be playing with knock-knock jokes.
As a little kid.
It can be kisses books, ice cream, you know snuggles whatever, whatever is important to them.
And then bunch them into words that are that encompass all of it, whether it's empathy, or I love the one delight, or games, or whatever it is.
And, and let that all respect, you know, let all of that settle into words.
Something that is bite-sized, that you can, you know, spell out on your refrigerator with magnets pretty easily, and just be reminded by
And I'm super, super eager to do it.
I mean, you really read carefully.
Yep.
Love you.
So on, that I feel like we could cause.
If you go, if you just let it all out, you're not self-conscious.
Like I know, there's a version of a family mission statement that I have.
That is my, You know, imagined high-minded mission statement, and maybe was my original one from when I had babies.
But it's not actually how I live or parent.
And so it's not useful.
Right.
We want it all.
I mean, I could write you a mission statement that would just make your hair curl up and just put a pink in your cheeks and you'd be like wow, but it wouldn't really reflect the home that we're in.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I remember the reason why I wanted also for the exercises your kids just are even able to speak.
Asking them like what they think yours would be, is that it gives you the Just like it's a check-in.
It's a real honest check-in.
Like, are we living and am I engaging in a way that is aligned with this mission statement?
Or is that just like a pretend me, when the real me really does care about certain things that I didn't include on the mission statement?
I bet my kids would think that grades were way up there.
Well, they would know, funny was number one, because I've always told them their whole lives just be funny, please.
That's why I had you amuse me.
Not interested in you if you're boring.
Yeah.
Just be funny.
So check, check, check.
I've got that.
I do.
That is one thing.
Thank God.
But after that I do worry that I have offered them an idea of something as important that rates higher in the way I'm acting than how I actually feel.
Excellence.
Excellence.
Everyday excellence all the time.
Excellence, you know?
Yeah.
And that's about me.
That's not about them.
That's about me looking back and thinking oh, I could have done X Y, Z if I had known that I would care later.
But I think that's reasonable.
That's reflecting and saying, like what are the things that I would have, that I would have wished for?
And how can I decide?
I guess you then have to decide, is it worth it?
Is it something that is the journey that each kid has to go on and find it later?
Or is it something that I should provide for them, that support until they embody it or discard it on their own?
Something that makes me happy is that I noticed that you celebrate and I don't think you name it thus, although my mom this is what my mom calls it benign neglect.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think when I had my first, I was so all over that kid.
Gosh, I was so all over my kids when they were little.
It has been the best thing that ever happened to them was for me to build up my own life underneath.
Because then you have to sort of not be on top of them for everything.
I totally agree.
In fact, I recall...
People criticize that phrase and it's 100% like, it's not neglect.
It's not neglect.
It's actually so thoughtful and giving and generous to your children because it gives them space.
And autonomy.
Yes.
It's letting them own their own lives and their own experiences.
Exactly.
I think I maybe use a more formal term of autonomy supportive parenting.
But autonomy supportive parenting is benign neglect, because when it really matters, of course, you're like the most there, but you have to let them think that it's like they don't need your perfect way of doing things to micromanage.
Yeah.
And they can, how they're going to do in whatever activities they're doing, whatever plays, play they're doing at home, whatever their hobbies they're in the middle of.
It's just not my business.
Now my kids are bigger, but when they were littler, I wish I could go back in time and adopt this at a younger age.
I think they would have benefited from me not feeling like I was their number one main all the time playmate.
Yeah, I think about sort of how to balance.
Because I remember once when my kids were younger, they were in the pool.
I was trying to read a book.
They were old enough to not need me to watch all the time, but young enough to care what I think.
And every second one of them was like mom, look at this mom, look at this.
And I was like I wonder if I've given too much, you know, delight at every move and just playing that.
Now they're like we need that to make sure we're having fun and make sure that this is going well.
And I think that was.
I feel like there were different points throughout their younger lives.
That and I still do it where I'm like this is the moment where I'm having an, you know, a realization that And all of it goes to like letting go of certain things I was kind of clinging to as my responsibility as a mother.
I'll say something that I really love is that you offer up ways to play with your child.
Because I think you don't not automatically know how to play with your child.
I love the idea of the magic elevator.
Let's just talk about some of your ideas for play.
Because if you're going to play, play.
The magic elevator, and many other examples come from my friend Jocelyn Green, who is this?
She was a theater actress.
Yes.
And she realized that improv is the way to go.
And I actually think improv.
If we could take improv and debate and implement it everywhere, the world would be a better place.
So she has all these amazing improv games.
And I felt like, because I have the same thing where I, there were certain things like dolls, where I just
It's not for me, but it was such a dreamy thing for my younger daughter.
And I think delight and the experience of feeling delight and showing delight and engaging in this like there's no agenda.
You are just playing. is so beneficial to kids, but it's so hard for us to do.
So I wanted to just give some ideas for if you're struggling because it's not that fun for you, there are ways to make it a little bit more fun and also enjoyable for you to just start to get to know yourself better.
Like how, what does, what is play to me?
That's very foreign.
And I love the awe research.
That's just like actually we thrive, we get outside of ourselves, our whole nervous system changes, when we can make sure that every day we experience awe.
And that can happen in its most beautiful form in play with kids.
In case anyone's just listening to this and they have a little one at home, let's just list a couple of fun games that they can just play tonight.
Because if you have an idea, it's like thinking of a recipe sometimes.
It's like, what am I going to cook for dinner?
But if you have a recipe and you have something you're excited to cook, then you don't mind the dinner making process at all.
And I think the same is true, honestly, of just play with kids.
Is that a crazy thing to say?
No, it's not a crazy thing to say.
I
I really fought to keep play and delight in this because it's so important and it's hard and it's not obvious.
It's the quickest way to connect.
Yes.
And kids remember it.
They hold on to the idea of you playing with them.
Can you, because this is your jam, would you explain magic elevator for everyone?
Let's talk about magic elevator.
This is so fun.
So you create a square on the floor.
You can have pillows.
You can have painter's tape.
This really comes in handy for a lot of things.
Painter's tape is so dreamy, even if it's like I'm just remembering.
We had a gymnastics mat when my kids were little and we put it on the ground, put painter's tape roads all over it and then put painter's tape like this is the school, this is the store, this is the jail, this is the Yeah.
This is the park.
And then we had it like basically Hot Wheels, but whatever.
And we would Zoom around and had little families and we played with that stupid thing.
It wasn't fancy.
I know you can buy them with them pre-made, but because we made it together and the kids got to say- So much more.
Yeah.
And it couldn't have been more rudimentary.
I'm not artistic, nor are you.
I'd like to just- Certainly not.
Certainly not.
Certainly not.
But it is like, it's just so fun.
I love when there's something you're playing with your kids that you can't wait to get back to as well.
That's the thing to find.
But that's a great example of just like.
All you need is the painter's tape and you can come up with a gazillion things.
You can do laser.
You know you have to get across the lasers and climb under and over and it's just painter's tape.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, totally.
Okay, so magic elevator, you create like a little elevator with whatever.
You denote a space on the ground.
Now you go that you imagine there are doors that close and there are buttons to choose from.
So one might take you, it's magical.
So it could be like magic tree house or it could take you to a time.
It could take you to a forest.
It could take you into the American Girl doll store or something that your child is fantasizing about, or the middle of the Super Bowl or a Formula One.
You know what I mean?
Like kids, have all these fantasies and it's so fun to watch them imagine what they would have that door open to, and then let them choose your buttons.
And then you pick one and maybe your kid thinks that you really just want to be in a Williams-Sonoma or something like that, which is where my kids would have put me.
It's just a funny, fun thing to play.
And it's really cool.
I remember the first time I did it was my kids were doing it with Jocelyn Green and I watched all these kids and you see these different personalities emerge.
And the cool thing is that in the fantasy of play you come out and you can be a different character in these places and it's safe and it's magical.
Yeah.
And if they're upset side note and they're going through like a want that they can't have, they can do it in the magic elevator or any of these kinds of games.
Like they're very good for self-regulation.
I didn't understand when my kids were younger, the power of the wishing as if.
What would it feel like if I hadn't made this mistake?
Trying to imagine.
What would it feel like?
I'm going to pretend as if I had won this award.
How would that feel?
And there's something healing about that, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Even though it's not real.
No, but it's like you're getting the experience of knowing and you're getting to know yourself.
It's a big part of reflection.
I can't think outside of these five principles anymore.
Like I'm like, it's everything is this, but it's so healing.
This is all in your book though.
Your five principles are so strong and they really thread the whole book together.
But Your book is chock full of really practical nuggets, not just the overarching how to become a better parent but how to become a better parent, how to regulate, how to play, how to connect, how to repair, how to draw boundaries and what those conversations can look like.
And that to me is so exciting because it is a recipe for success.
When you are in that role, or doctor for that matter.
Whatever you are making a decision in your play, that is intentional and you're exercising the self-regulation muscle and you didn't even know it.
But what would that character do?
That character is not going to react the way you would react.
They're going to react the way the character reacts.
That's why pretend play is so highly linked with executive function skills.
Wow.
I just wanted to throw that in there.
Wow.
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Something that can be part of play is dysregulation.
Yep.
It doesn't go the way you want.
You get interrupted by a phone call that you have to take.
A sibling wakes up when you least expect it.
You have told this child I'm going to give you 15 minutes of special time, but then the special time is up and you have to go.
Or...
They want things to be possible that aren't, they want to really fly if they want to.
And something that I think your book really, this is just so, so important.
And I can think of a million ways.
This made me send a text to one of my kids saying, as I was reading your book today, because I just thought, oh my gosh, the power of repair.
And I know you've talked about repair ad nauseum, but we can't talk about your book without really talking about repair.
And let's just take it in a different context.
Let's take it with a kid who's unhappy that playtime has to end or that their special time has to end, or whatever that is.
What does that look like later?
Just talk us through.
So in that case, like if your dysregulated child is disappointed because they just had the best time, or maybe they didn't have the best time and it got interrupted, or whatever it is, and you are now disconnected
And they got upset, but you still had to go take that phone call.
Yeah.
And you feel like crap because you saw that you left them so upset.
The next time you see them, I don't even think you need to say the right thing.
You need to notice what your particular child needs, to feel like they're back in sync with you, which again doesn't need to be.
It's not a dance, really.
It's like a sloppy dance.
So if you know this child is, just really likes touch, then you engage in reconnecting physically.
And in the melting in with each other and the hug and the cuddles, you've made repair.
Because repair is just reconnecting.
It's not, you know, or you can, of course, formally apologize.
But that's not necessarily.
I mean I just did in the car with my child, who has been a little frustrated with me as of late.
And I started to take a deep breath and I was like I understand that it must be really hard right now, because I am working a lot more than usual and I'm a lot more on edge and I'm not super excited about it.
And I'm trying really hard to manage my own nervous system.
Anyway, I'm trying to make this apology and I'm midway through.
And my daughter was like, yeah, I know what's going on for you.
I'm very clear about it.
I don't like it.
I know you love me.
Like you don't need to keep apologizing.
Like that's not what it is.
It's just, it's a frustrating time.
And I was thinking about it.
I was thinking how annoying it must be if you only make repair all the time about apologizing.
Yeah.
So it really, like if I can just help people memorize, it's about reconnecting.
So I would have been better off getting in the car and putting on a favorite Taylor Swift song than laughing and singing badly.
Then, and that would have still been repair.
It just might not have been as annoying.
Wow, I'm glad you said that.
That is really important to know.
Repair is reconnecting.
And with ourselves.
Yeah.
Because it's not just repair with our kids.
It really is like we have to do the same thing with ourselves.
Your emphasis on regulation, and particularly self-regulation in order to co-regulate with your child, is really, really helpful.
I found myself in the position to need to self-regulate around my kids, as they are all in these new kind of developmental spaces.
We have a lot of decisions happening in our house.
We have a lot of birthdays moments, transitions happening and it just doesn't work if I'm coming in hot.
Yeah, it just doesn't.
It just doesn't.
I mean, you know, my kids go back and forth between houses every week.
And the first for a very long while, when they would come here from their dad's house.
I would be so dysregulated.
I'd missed them so much.
I'd worked so hard to be okay that when I saw them I know they could sense my energy, and it sent us all into a tailspin.
Totally.
Took us a day.
Yep.
And now I really, I had a friend who said, just meet them with delight.
Just be delighted to see them.
That's all they care about.
So I do everything I can to take care of myself before I see them.
I work out.
I have a phone conversation.
I connect with someone.
I bake them something so I can focus on that and feel good.
And then when I see them, I'm delighted to see them.
And if they need to go to their rooms or do what they need to do to regulate, I let that go.
You can handle it.
Yeah.
I don't take that.
Like, don't they just all want to sit on my lap all at the same time?
You know?
Yes.
I remember the first times that I was getting used to having my kids come back.
And it was exactly like that.
Like, I was so... on edge because I was like looking for, were they okay?
Are we okay?
Is everybody good?
That it actually undermined just connecting because I was not regulated.
And now it's more, yeah, they're older.
So it's more like Even coming home from I think, not taking personally just that a hug and then off to the room and you're like why don't we, aren't we going to snuggle and catch up?
Because they need to settle back into who they are in a different place.
Absolutely.
I just think you can't overstate how difficult transitions are.
Yeah.
Of every kind.
Transitions are just so hard.
No, I mean.
That's why we need to, and we can't control how they've regulated other than to offer them our own.
Gosh.
Thank you for spending your life researching so that we don't have to.
And when you started this, the first sentence, of your book.
I love this.
Now that you don't have to be perfect, you can be good.
John Steinbeck, he knew what he was.
Isn't that the best?
I wish I had said it, but I feel like, since John Steinbeck is a fairly well-received writer, it was fine to steal his words.
Here is the first sentence that made me think of my first question.
The research is conclusive, period.
And my first question really was, now that we've been talking for a while, how much of this book is informed by your amazing parenting groups and your work with parents?
And how much is informed by the work of being a parent?
And how much is really based on the research that you did in your PhD program?
I think it sort of, I started off intellectually interested in this before I had kids.
Then I think I had kids, but I was still on the intellectual side of it.
And then I started working with actual humans and physicians and families.
And I was like, note to self, translating research is very tricky because a lot of it is not applicable.
Gosh, I love that you say throw out 25% of anything you read here because it won't work for you.
For you.
You really are offering the key points of all of this brilliant research, whether it's Carol Dweck, whether it's Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson.
I love when you guys do your one-on-ones.
Well.
Yeah, or your two one, whatever those are, when you're just answering questions, the two of you together.
So I'm always, oh, goody, goody.
Internal family systems, the work of Dr. Tronick, the work of, you know, orchids versus dandelions.
You're bringing all of these- That's Thomas Boise to give him credit.
Thank you.
You probably spent, you know, months on each of these, but you distill it down for us in a way that we can take from it what makes sense for us and our parenting and- leave the rest.
Although pretty much anything that you leave for now, you can loop back around six months from now and find a whole new world of things that will apply to your children and to you as a parent.
Yeah.
I really wanted to make sure that there was just everything under one roof and that it doesn't matter if you have a baby or if you have a teen, that it makes sense and it'll just land differently.
Somebody can have a body of work that is massive and incredible, but how is that body of work relevant to you, Jennifer Garner, as you're raising your three specific kids?
I'm trying to figure out like, what is the one kernel that you need from that information?
Because of course you can't go through all of it.
And I felt like it was a real honor to figure that out and to choose whose work to highlight when I was thinking about like, what really matters, because there's so many incredible researchers out there.
There's so many that I couldn't fit in.
There are so many that we can't keep up with them all.
Hell no.
As parents.
Yeah.
I mean, thank God for your podcast because it's S-R-O-U-F-E, that guy.
Oh my God.
Alan Srofe.
Srofe.
He's like the father of sort of the longest running attachment study ever done.
And you break down attachment for us, thank God, because it's so confusing.
Dr Sears was still.
Everyone was Dr Sears-ing when I had a baby and I just.
There was no way.
I went back to work with my when my first baby was just a few weeks old.
And I, you know I was lucky enough to be able to nurse and for that to be a source of comfort to me.
But My gosh, I was so concerned that I was doing it all upside.
You know that my child wouldn't attach to me because of that.
And I love that the idea here that all you need is good enough, because if we can all chill out.
I remember saying to my mom it really matters every bite that goes into a kid's mouth, if I've made it and I'm feeding them that bite.
And my mom was like, it really doesn't.
It's not knocking it if that's your jam and if it feeds you.
But if it's because you're doing it to get an outcome, that is very different.
If you're feeding every bite carefully because you like, love food and love cooking, and it's just so.
This is your thing.
I totally understand.
Well, that's kind of what you're saying is that all things can work.
Yeah.
Like for a point in my life that really worked for me.
And you connect over it.
It really worked for me to be so well in, to be every moment, moment in, moment out.
I think a I was a bit too much for my kids, but whatever.
And then it shifted and I was hungry for the part of me that goes to work in a different way.
And we're okay now too.
Yep.
Thriving.
And we don't even need to thrive.
We can just be okay.
Yeah.
But I do think it's not to criticize.
Like if somebody wanted to go sleep for five years, also okay.
I just don't like the nature of the biz.
That's not this biz, not the LA biz, but the parenting biz of one particular approach.
Absent of the five principles that are just sort of like the overall.
We kind of know this to be true in the research.
No matter what.
But even things like yelling, do I think it's a good practice?
Of course not, but it's different. in one household to the next.
If you have.
I had an immigrant household that was a loud, yelly household that was so loving and there was no, it was not fear.
It was yelly.
It's a tone.
Oh my gosh.
I remember in college being with a friend of mine and her mother, they're Italian.
Exactly.
And they yelled at each other and I was in the backseat of the car and I remember starting to cry because I mean I was like I'm watching the end of a parental and child relationship.
Right, right.
That was.
I couldn't have imagined speak like raising my voice to my mother, her raising her voice to me.
Now we did plenty of other things right, but it's just what kind of house sometimes it is.
What kind of house you grow up and then they like just picked back up and started talking about what what they were going to put on their pizza exactly.
And that's the key, because for other people there's fear, like you can tell, this is, this is not healthy or safe, this is terrifying and that is not okay.
But there's a difference.
So I never want people to think that I'm saying like every household should be this tone.
And just so that's not right for everybody.
I'm not trying to change personalities.
And I feel like sometimes in this gig with too much information you start to you can't help but sort of paint like a paint by numbers approach that doesn't allow for individual differences.
Right, like the people that you were talking about in your book, for whom feeding was so stressful because somebody had told them they should have this much of one thing.
Exactly.
And so they're counting bites or they are really obsessing.
The Pat Garner approach of some days you're going to eat a lot of One thing, some days you're going to eat a lot of another.
You just put good stuff out there.
You put fruit and veggies on the counter.
She could have written that.
Oh, Pat Garner.
She has it.
I should have.
I wish I could be Pat Garner.
She's the best.
You know that was another thing was like my same idea, but in my group the woman who started with knitting she had knitting hands.
She got knitting wrists.
Knitting wrists.
Thank you for having just read it.
Did you know that existed?
You probably did.
I feel like you might.
I might've heard of knitting wrist.
I had not heard of knitting wrist.
And I was just like that is.
So that is such a perfect example of just how we can take something we love, like feeding our kids and cooking for our kids not me, but you.
Or there's something that you do for one that you feel like well, I have to do it for all of my children.
When in reality, I have said to my third plenty of times, I know it's crazy.
You don't get the same things.
And I say to my first, I know it's so much easier for that kid.
Yeah.
The rules are different.
I'm a different mom.
You're developing.
Yeah.
And if I had started out with that one, where I started out with you, then by now you guys would all be strippers, because there would be no rules.
It would be insanity.
That's just reality.
That's the way it goes.
Yeah.
I'm one of three kids.
Come on.
Yeah, please.
Yeah.
You're lucky to be here.
By the way, that kid is amazing.
Oh my gosh.
Very, very cute.
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Okay, let me just say a couple of things, all right?
I really love I don't know where I wrote this down, but I remember writing it that the shepherd doesn't design the sheep.
I'm going to read it for you.
You are a shepherd.
You don't design the sheep.
Shepherds are powerful people.
They pick the pastures in which the sheep will graze and develop and grow.
They determine whether they are appropriately nourished.
They determine whether they are protected from harm.
The environment is important, but it does not design the sheep.
No shepherd is going to turn a sheep into a dog.
Ain't going to happen.
And yet, that is what we see parents trying to do all the time.
Step back and see yourself as the shepherd.
Russell Barkley.
Thank you.
It took me a long time to understand temperament.
I think having three kids really helps it along.
Yeah.
Yes.
Right?
Well, it does.
But if it depends on you know, if you have three kids you're probably going to have an orchid in there somewhere.
Or at least a tulip who's part orchid, part dandelion.
And it depends on where that tricky kid comes from.
Because if you start with easy, you're thrown by a highly sensitive or whatever you want to call it kid.
All sorts of different names these days.
All sorts of different names.
But orchid.
I like orchid better.
I like orchid too.
I actually have a little orchid in there, encased in something, to remind myself that I'm raising an orchid, to treat them like an orchid, to treat myself as a parent of an orchid, which means lots of loving, deep breath.
Yep.
You know...
I feel like there is an interesting thing about you which is you should like, by all accounts, you would think you'd be an orchid.
I'm such a scrubby dandelion.
And you're just a little dandelion.
Oh my gosh.
Like whack-a-mole.
Yep.
Yeah, you can't get me down.
I will grow up out of the crack of concrete.
I haven't had to.
I've had a really lovely life.
But I'm the dandelion-iest dandelion.
And it's so interesting.
I just feel like people should know this about you.
I'm a weed.
She's a really very beautiful weed.
Well, I know.
The one problem with his metaphor is that this metaphor of Dr Thomas Boise, who did all the research on orchids and dandelions, is that
So dandelions, while to raise a dandelion is quite a bit more, it's probably quite a bit more easy.
The flower itself, nobody wants to be considered a dandelion.
Oh, really?
You know, like, cause when I describe it.
Oh, I'm proud of my, as soon as I heard the metaphor, I was just like, yep.
That's me.
I know where you are.
But I do think it's interesting because you don't associate dandelions with these beautiful, amazing flowers.
So you could see that it's a judgment call.
But I think what he was doing, which I feel is very clever, is that we often take what used to be called in the literature frankly, back in the day they were just called difficult children.
They were just called difficult.
Then it turned to spirited.
And now then it's highly sensitive, all these different things, deeply feeling blah, blah, blah.
But orchid feels like we found the magic way of saying something to appreciate these kinds of humans.
But in the process I think the dandelions who used to be called in the all the literature on temperament just easy.
I mean, it was just back in the day, it was just really straightforward.
Easy, difficult, cautious.
That's it.
And now it's like, we've gotten deeper.
Man, they really grow up to be the coolest people, kids.
You know, it's so fun to know your kids as they get bigger.
It is.
It's so fun.
And that's why it's so cool not to be able to control who they're going to be.
Yeah.
I wish I could have chilled out and understood that good enough is good enough.
And you can still be conscientious and excellent while accepting that.
In fact, good enough is actually if you're aiming for better, like if you are thinking about excellence.
Good enough is excellent.
Mm-hmm.
Because excellent work with me here is that perfect, that sense that it's perfect is so cruel to our children.
It really is.
Who needs that?
The key is letting yourself be exactly the parent you are with, exactly the good enough that you're going to give, and knowing that if you did it too well, it would model something unattainable for your kids to just hate themselves.
Like really, like just get, grow up and think, why wasn't I as good as my mother?
Why can't I be so perfect?
You have so many tabs.
I know.
Cause I just start, I was marking all the things that mattered to me, but then intentions.
I'd like to auction that book.
You can.
I like the idea that you can say, I'm here to a baby that's crying.
Yeah.
And that that's enough for yourself and for your baby.
Because your babies are going to cry and you're not always going to make it better.
And sometimes you just need to know that a way to make yourself feel better.
Penelope was colicky.
Oh, gosh.
How dare she?
So what would you do?
Well, I held her and let her it turns out.
Long story short, she had a really bad milk protein allergy.
Bless her little button.
So I just cut out all dairy, which by the way, is very challenging.
Yeah.
Her baby.
Yeah.
And then she got better.
But for the period of time where I thought that was gobbledygook, I just had to hold her a lot, or her dad held her a lot, or anybody that would be willing held her a lot.
And then one day when it was over, I was like, that was fantastic to be finished with.
Like that was too much.
But I will say that my next child was a happy spitter where she was fine.
It seemed like she had reflux because she spit up constantly.
Like if I got dressed and I picked her up.
A hundred percent of the time.
Yeah.
But she would then giggle afterwards.
So it was totally fine.
And I preferred the colic.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Because I thought the spitting was just, it was just constant.
Yeah.
Before we finish, there's an R that I have a hard time with.
Can we just talk about rules?
Please can we talk about rules?
Yeah.
You talk about repair.
You talk about all these other things.
I want to talk about rules.
I agree.
It's very unpopular.
It's very hard.
I love that you make the distinction between let me see if I'm going to get it right rules, limits and boundaries.
I use rules as the umbrella and then limits and boundaries.
So, because those are two separate things.
We talked about boundaries.
It's like between you and other and you and yourself and that's under your control.
And then rules are your behavioral expectations of your kids as they move through the world.
So they can be people that are not just about themselves.
And sometimes it's uncomfortable or it's about their safety or emotional or physical safety.
And I don't know why, but I think rules are so hard for people to do and think that they're not compromising their relationships.
Yeah, it's so, and I feel for parents because they hear relationship is so powerful and sensitive, caregiving and all of the things and connection and attunement and attachment and they are so important.
But I don't know, somewhere in this rules got sent away and there's no scientist that would think that that was a good thing.
But I think out in the world, rules seem like they undermine your child's freedom to grow into whomever they want to be.
And that's a different thing.
They're also no fun.
And they suck.
They suck.
Also, this is something that I found with my, you know, admittedly bigger kids.
First of all, I've never known what's an appropriate rule and what isn't.
Other than I know an appropriate boundary.
For example, if you have a kid who, for some reason, like kids do creepy things to your body.
You'll realize a kid has started sucking your hair.
No.
Right.
That's gross to me.
You'll realize a kid has started like, you know, doing something weird to your arm.
No, no.
You're not putting my arm in your mouth.
I'm not interested in that.
No, no.
Thank you.
That's a boundary.
Like there are plenty of things, like you get to a point where you're just like you don't need to be in the bathroom with me right now.
Right.
Great example.
Yeah.
Everyone.
Thank you so much.
Everyone, even the dog.
Everyone go.
Can we have just a minute?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But rules are so, they just confound me.
And I feel like I either have too many or too few and they all got jacked during the pandemic.
Yes.
And there are some that I don't know how to buy back.
I feel like some things got out of control and I don't know how to get them back.
But we don't have to talk about me and my rules.
I'm going to ask you about them separately maybe where we can.
But I do want to know, how do you know what a good rule is for your kid?
Well, one is, can you keep it?
Oh, yeah.
Because don't make a rule that you can't keep.
Oh, amen to that.
If you're like no TV on Saturday mornings, then you have to be able to keep that.
And if you have a rule of doing the dishes on such and such night, or what assignment your child has, or that they have to turn their phone in, you have to adhere to that rule.
So that's the first thing is, can I actually follow this rule?
If you can't, maybe it's not that important to you.
And the second is, Are they developmentally ready for it?
If they're not able to follow it, they may need help.
It may be something you have to shape with smaller... more attainable limits.
So you have to be able to follow it.
It has to be something that aligns with your values.
To me there are a lot of things that could be rules in the house, but I have to think that goes back to having a family value statement.
Does this interfere with the big important stuff?
Like the big 10 commandments.
If not, maybe it's not a rule worth having.
Mm-hmm.
And then I think also you think about how does this impact other people?
If it's a rule that you think well, I don't really care, but they have to move through the world and I need them to know that there are other people in the world, then I think it's worth keeping.
That's how I do it.
Okay.
What are you thinking?
I think there's some rules I need to re-implement and I wish you could come over and do it.
Pretty sure they would not listen to me.
Yeah, well.
But I do, my best friend's daughter calls me the TikTok taker.
You kill people's TikTok?
Well, just hers.
Yeah.
I killed her TikTok and then she got it back.
But I didn't really kill it.
I just maybe, when asked my opinion, it was like, I feel like we don't need this, right?
I feel like it's not being used the way it was intended right now.
And, but I love her and we have a close relationship.
She's not my kid, but because we have a close relationship, even I can have a rule for her.
Like when she comes over, because is it annoying?
Yes.
But we are so close that we can survive it.
And so I'm comfortable with like, I think that's part, I mean, someone else's kid, it's very hard.
We have, this is a very special situation.
Yes.
But I do think, like we have to, with rules, really figure out how much we can handle of our children's discomfort.
But then there might be rules that you think you need to revisit, that you don't need to revisit because your kids have handled themselves well.
I think it's like, how are they doing without those rules?
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
It is very tricky to know how much to insert yourself.
What is the line between being a perfectionist and being two hands off?
Yeah.
And that Goldilocks situation is very, very tricky.
I mean, every day with parenting is a new chance to try again.
So if you go too far, you try the other.
But there are, you do have to be intentional about, shoot, I think I have to try this again.
Yeah.
And I think that in the world of high achieving, stress and perfectionism and all those things that we just want to alleviate from our kids, it can be hard to figure out like okay so, but do we go to the whole other side of like?
You know, you don't have to do anything, just do whatever you're interested in.
And I can see that being difficult, but I do think it's the Goldilocks. model.
And you just have to ask yourselves what.
And also you could pick certain things where you're just like this is important to me and I have no good reason.
Yeah.
I think we're entitled to that.
You get some of those.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We took a family picture over Christmas and I just, my son just loads anything like that.
And I was.
We were with my parents and my sisters and their kids and their husbands and I said we are taking a family picture.
You are not going to make a face and you are going to do it.
You have to.
It's for my mom, for grandma.
She wants it.
That'll do it.
And we, that is, we are, we are doing this.
And he was in agony.
And I'm sure the pictures will be hilarious.
I'm sure his smile will reflect his pain, but he did it.
Because he knew that you wouldn't say that kind of thing if it didn't really matter to you.
And I think that's important about rules too, is care about them.
Because if you don't care about them, they are a waste of everybody's time.
Yeah.
Gosh, is that the truth?
A rule you can't keep just undermines you in every possible way.
And you feel terrible about your parenting.
Yep.
EmptyThreats.com.
Yeah.
Should we finish with a little regulation?
Sure.
Do you want to do what makes you happy?
Oh, I like that.
Because then you could answer it.
Okay.
So when you play what makes you happy, do you go back and forth and back and forth?
No, it's a one-on-one.
So you ask the same person the same question over and over.
Because it's hard.
You have to come up with a lot of things.
And then after that, the other person does it.
In this case, only one of us has to do it.
Everybody will get the gist and the moment, but you see what it does to you.
Want to give it a try?
Sure.
Okay.
So let's do a little hand on heart.
We're going to take a breath.
Okay.
What makes you happy?
First cup of coffee of the day.
What makes you happy?
Crawling into bed with a book.
What makes you happy?
Seeing my kids laugh together without me.
What makes you happy?
Dropping the last one off at school.
What makes you happy?
Standing next to camera and watching somebody that I'm working with kill it in the scene.
What makes you happy?
Hearing makeup trailer.
What makes you happy?
Colleagues, being with colleagues, whether it's Save the Children, Want to Put a Farm, or being at work.
What makes you happy?
Good book.
What makes you happy?
Taking off in an airplane.
What makes you happy?
Landing back home.
What makes you happy?
Hearing my mom and dad's voice.
What makes you happy?
My house, a fireplace, a blanket.
What makes you happy?
A really good sweater.
What makes you happy?
Watching a mom and child connect when I'm visiting their house was safe.
What makes you happy?
Being in the audience for literally pretty much anything.
What makes you happy?
Being on stage for the same reason.
What makes you happy?
Seeing you.
Okay, we can end with that one.
Congratulations, Aliza.
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you.
I feel very personally responsible for this book because I believe I ordered it up.
You did say to do this.
I did.
A couple of years ago, I said, it's time.
We need your book and you more than delivered.
You know as your friend, but also as a true student of yours.
I had so much in my mind for what this book could be and you've surpassed it in every way.
So congratulations.
I'm going to be giving it to as many people as I know.
And that is a lot of people.
Thank you. or services referred to in this episode.
