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What's up, fam?
It's sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl Sam Jay.
And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together.
We're breaking down the biggest headlines, the viral moments and the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports.
From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates and a few laughs along the way.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
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Everyone watches women's sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Joy is essential and it's also elusive.
But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence.
Joy 101.
It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotb.
If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on-air chats.
Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Joy 101 and listen now.
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS.
I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast Disgraceland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names, the moments that changed music history forever.
Sonic Youth was cool, but was the band cooler than the couple on the cover of their album, Goo?
Cool enough to escape the glare of the international paparazzi?
Cool enough to escape murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
My first guest is Terrence Hilton.
Shakira.
Luke and Yerin.
We have surprises.
Many surprises.
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What up?
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow Starburst.
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Here, oversharing is encouraged.
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Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers.
If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
Millie Bobby Brown.
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes 3 Family Life and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
Plus, we find out what she really feels about the Stranger Things ending.
You have over 60 animals.
I don't know where the number 60, and I've really got to figure that out.
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.
It's a big bed.
Literally sleeping in the bed.
Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello everybody, I'm Gemma Speck and welcome back to The Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.
Hello everybody, welcome back to the show, welcome back to the podcast.
It is so great to have you here back for another episode, as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s, of your 20s.
Before we get into this episode, before we get started, I wanted to let you know that the full video version of this episode of this podcast is now available on Netflix worldwide.
If you are somebody who prefers to watch rather than listen to your podcast, or just likes having the podcast on in the background whilst you're cooking or cleaning or commuting, you can find us on Netflix.
It is, candidly, a pretty new space for podcasts.
So if you're a fan of the show and just want to help prove that podcasts are the real deal and that people enjoy them and support them genuinely, the best way you can do that is to just go and watch an episode.
That is my plea to you today.
What are we talking about in this episode today?
We are talking about something that I think almost everyone has experienced at some point in their lives, which is the feeling of just being too much.
You know, you're too loud.
You're too emotional.
You're too opinionated.
Somebody's made you feel like you're too sensitive.
You're too needy, too enthusiastic.
I think at some point most of us have had that sudden flash of self-consciousness where we just become acutely aware of ourselves, how we're behaving and how other people are responding, perhaps in a less than favorable way.
Maybe it's because you're laughing a little bit too loudly and you realize everybody's kind of looking at you.
Maybe you realize you've been talking for too long or you've shared something personal.
You've immediately regretted it.
Maybe you've expressed excitement passion, love too soon or, you know, at too much of a level, only to watch someone else's reaction and just think oh, they're definitely going to tell people about this and it's not going to be nice.
It's a genuinely and uniquely painful feeling.
And it can lead us to living very lonely lives, because it goes deeper than just embarrassment, right?
This feeling, it's bigger than that.
What we're feeling is shame.
When we feel too much, we feel shame.
The sense that who we are naturally is somebody that won't be accepted.
And therefore, if you want to find people to connect with, if you want to find people to be around, The only way to do that is to just shrink down a little bit.
That is your only pathway to acceptance is to just not be who you are.
I have such distinct memories and moments from my childhood exactly like this, where I can literally see in hindsight, like the idea that being implanted into my mind in real time, that I was too much for people.
And so I wanted to explore it today for others who may feel the same way, because I think, at its core, feelings of being too much are closely related to feelings of not fitting in, feelings that you never did belong, that haven't found their resolution.
And they won't find their resolution until you really dig into why it is that you're made to feel this way, the cost of feeling this way, and how it is that you can really just accept the bigger louder, more out there parts of yourself.
So without further ado, let's get into it.
When you feel like you are too much, that feeling really stays confined to just one area of life.
It tends to follow you everywhere, even if it takes on different forms, depending on the situation.
For example, when we date, we might consciously pull back from saying what we really want to say and admitting our true feelings, showing the other person that we're interested, or showing them too much of our personality.
We may stop ourselves from doing those things prematurely so that they won't reject us at work.
We, when we feel too much, we can feel like you know, we're always the loud one.
We're too demanding.
Our standards are too high.
We're too sensitive.
And so, again, we don't ask for what we want.
We stay silent when we really want to say things.
We maybe lose out on opportunities because of that.
Same in friendships.
Same with your family.
Perhaps your family was the kind of family that... was quite quiet and you embarrass them.
You know, the guiding thought we have is again and again and again.
People would probably like me if I wasn't the way that I am.
The core question we need to explore here is, to begin with, why does our society automatically tend to shame people who are too much into being less?
Why is it not the other way around?
Why is it that we find loud, passionate, some might say brash individuals so polarizing, you know, inspirational at best, offensive at worst?
It's interesting to me because society, as much as I said they, don't tend to shame people who go the other direction.
I do think they do.
People who are too quiet also are made to feel like they are less than.
It's another example of this impossible standard.
You can't be too much.
You can't be too little.
You have to be just right.
And very few people sit on that fine line.
So there's a couple explanations as to why the too much person is ashamed.
The first is that it challenges social norms.
One of the deepest psychological reasons we label people as too much is because human beings are remarkably sensitive to social norms.
Every culture, every workplace, every friendship group family, community has this unwritten rule book for how members should behave.
What's appropriate to wear?
How loud someone should be?
What gets said?
What doesn't get said?
Who's top dog?
Who's a follower?
What's polite?
What's not polite?
It's always there.
When someone exceeds those invisible boundaries...
Others think, well, you're not playing by the rules.
Why can't you just be like the rest of us?
Why can't you just obey and continue this harmonious kind of feeling?
This reaction is particularly the case for people who have a real rule-following, structured personality type.
These people find the muchness particularly difficult to deal with, and they're often high on what we call conscientiousness, which is a big five personality trait that measures and reflects self-control diligence, attention to detail or rule following, and it's also correlated with perfectionism and, at times, authoritarianism and traditionalism.
That final point I find really interesting.
There is a particular kind of individual who finds muchness offensive.
One study I found from 2016, titled The Big Five in relationship with I can't even remember, it's like The big five in relationship with social dominance.
Orientation, looked at personality correlates in a sample of 400 people and who they voted for, what political parties they supported, and they found that people high in conscientiousness.
There was a positive correlation with an increase in conservative, traditional and, at times, authoritarian values.
Some people just like rules and structure more.
They want people to behave all in the same way.
When you don't and they have that personality type, they look to correct that in you by making you feel too much and hoping the shame of that nudges you back in line.
That's explanation number one.
Explanation number two your muchness reflects a self-acceptance and an authentic expression that other people feel is a threat.
Psychology points to this idea that Perhaps we dislike people who are confident because they make us feel that we are lacking.
This has a name.
It's called the self-evaluation threat.
Essentially, a lot of our identity is based on how we regard ourselves in relation to others.
When someone displays traits or behaviors we secretly feel like we lack.
We either feel worse about ourselves and our ego is injured, or we convince ourselves that We actually don't like those traits.
We don't want to be like that person.
Therefore, we protect our ego by dismissing the value of this individual we're secretly a little bit jealous of.
This really comes down to...
That one pesky social reaction that is hardwired into all of us whether we like it or not.
Social comparison
Something we talk about a lot on the podcast is how comparison happens in two directions and what direction we choose to, I guess, direct it in will influence how we feel about ourselves also how we will feel about other people.
I think an example is probably needed here.
The best one I can think of is like imagine you hear that, like your colleague has just made, like a huge scientific discovery.
They've like published something in a journal.
They've won an award.
They've received... some accolade, it's a big deal.
In response, you either can feel inspired by them, happy for them you see their status rise and that's motivational for you or you feel crap about yourself.
You feel stressed that you haven't achieved that yet.
You find reasons to make their achievement feel smaller.
The first reaction, the positive one, is upward social comparison.
This person becomes what we call an expander for you.
Someone who has showed you what's possible and inspired you to reach it.
The second reaction is downward social comparison.
This person has become a threat.
They've threatened you.
They've made you feel worse about yourself.
You feel in competition with them and due to their success, their recent success, you are now losing that competition.
You're not as good.
This can start as what we call in psychology benign envy, which is relatively harmless.
It quickly can transform into malicious envy if you're not careful.
Where you know you start doing things you don't see as a reflection of your character.
You know you criticize this person, you try and lessen their status, you accuse them or somebody's maybe accused you of being too much.
This also explains why your own muchness feels like a threat to people who internally feel too little.
Someone else's own comfort in themselves can remind people of their own unhealed insecurity.
They call you too much.
They say you're too loud, too aggressive, too excited because they've silenced themselves.
So why can't you?
They've had to do it.
You should have to do it as well.
They've denied themselves authentic expression.
They've been internally hurt by that fact.
Well, now everybody else should have to make the same choice and should have to pay the same price.
In Australia, we have a term for when people feel threatened by other success.
It's called tall poppy syndrome.
And It's this idea that the tallest puppy or the tallest flower is the first one to get cut down.
The people who are doing the best, who are the most successful, the loudest, the most passionate.
They are the ones others need to eliminate first if they want to feel better about their own deficits or lackings.
A great way to do that.
Say that somebody is just too much.
Shame them into being smaller, paint them as going against social harmony in the name of humility.
You're doing this to make sure social order is maintained. not really.
The reason we do this is because of pride and because we can't bear to see somebody be better than us.
An interesting psychological follow-up question is when does this feeling of begin, right?
We kind of know how it's implanted in us.
But when does our muchness first start to feel like something that we need to internally correct or change to belong?
There is this turning point around the ages of like six or eight.
And then again, I think in our early teenage years, when We often have our first experiences of realizing that maybe people don't like us and realizing perhaps I don't fit in.
People don't like me for who I am.
This can happen with our families.
It also happens with teachers, with friends, even random strangers.
But I think the first place it really does begin is with our families and with our parents, especially when it comes to our bids for connection and our bids for emotional comfort.
A big way children show that they want closeness and that they want emotional support from their parents is through crying and through being loud and through trying to get their attention.
If an adult's response to your crying or your bids was to tell you to shut up or to stop crying or to get over it, if they became frustrated when you wanted attention, when they dismissed your upsets, something kind of clicks in you.
When I am loud, when I express what I need, I am made to feel bad.
Therefore, part of me that naturally needs and naturally wants must be inherently shameful and incorrect.
We have to remember, you know, a big way that we learn what is socially and personally appropriate as children is by closely watching, monitoring and responding to adults' reactions to our behavior.
And so when we see people constantly be like, you are too much, we start to feel that.
Does that mean we become emotionless?
No, it just means we become very repressed.
That natural set point for our emotions though, that remains.
Like we still feel all the feelings we would normally feel, but it's now constantly bubbling below the surface, unable to be communicated.
And it becomes incredibly uncomfortable when we just can't express or be who we are.
It's not just your tears or your cries that were perhaps ignored as a child.
Research shows that children who are overexcitable loud, boisterous they often receive less preferential or favorable treatment from parents and teachers compared to children who are quiet and agreeable.
The loud children are punished just for being themselves.
Children pick up on those reactions, especially since their sense of fairness is so heightened.
And so when they see, you know, the nice, quiet girl gets a lot more praise than the loud child or the big brash child, we internalize that.
We basically think If I want adults to like me, if I want people to like me, I better change, because who I am now isn't good enough if it doesn't meet that standard.
Personally, I had so many experiences like this when I was a kid because I
I was a happy and extroverted and enthusiastic child.
Like I can acknowledge now that I really didn't do any harm, but I was just loud and I was just boisterous.
The way some adults responded to my personality is a feeling that I don't think you can forget.
Like frustration at best. disgust, even a little bit of hatred at worst.
And that sticks with you.
That becomes how you feel about yourself.
Disgusted, annoyed, ashamed.
I should be less.
I remember one teacher I had, I can remember it so well.
She would almost try and like embarrass me for how loud I was.
I think I was literally like seven or eight and she would get other children to copy how loud I was.
Back to me.
So I'd be like speaking loud and she'd be like, well, everybody speak it Gemma the way she was speaking.
She would call me like loud Gemma and the other Gemma in class was nice Gemma.
I was literally seven.
She would ignore me when I like asked her questions or like I would try, and I remember having these distinct memories of being like I'm so excited by this art I made or trying to share something with her.
And she would just ignore me.
And, you know, I was the biggest and tallest and loudest girl in the class.
I wasn't particularly delicate or neat.
And I could see that even as a kid, like she had personal opinions of that.
She didn't like that I was that child.
I share that story not for sympathy, not because I'm still hurt by it.
I literally now get to talk and be loud for a living.
It's obviously worked out pretty fine for me, but I just think it's a good example of what early childhood experiences and conditioning does to our sense of self.
Those early autobiographical memories of somebody not liking you for who you are doesn't just disappear.
They are absorbed into our internal sense of self and shame and how we self-police our own behavior the older we get.
Eventually, we don't need someone.
We don't need a teacher or a parent to tell us that we're being too much or to tell us to shut up anymore.
We just do it ourselves.
One 2016 paper from the Journal of Child Psychiatry talks about how children who were made to feel embarrassed by aspects of who they are And it's not just whether they're loud, but their looks or anything they tend to develop more shame proneness the older they get.
This was from a longitudinal study that started with 350 children in the fifth grade.
It followed them until they turned 18, so a long time.
More shame in childhood caused what these researchers labeled as painful self-focus or painful focus on the self.
And it was often accompanied by a need to shrink, to be smaller.
As adults.
These individuals also often resorted to a number of defensive strategies to escape the feeling that they were inadequate.
Everything from substances to overconfidence to self-sabotage.
That was the consequence of this childhood reaction to their personality.
So what are some of the other long-term psychological effects?
I really want to investigate these.
We need to take a short break.
When we return, we'll dive right into it.
What's up, fam?
I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl, Sam J, And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together, and I Heart Women's Sports.
Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days.
The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline.
And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.
Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports.
We'll give you our takes, our debates, and probably a few disagreements.
We'll talk to athletes, celebrate big moments and get into what's happening on and off the field, court track and beyond.
Because we're not just interested in what happened.
We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
So if you're already a fan or you're just getting into the game, there's a seat for you right here.
Listen to.
Everyone watches women's sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.
OK, if you know me, you know this.
I'm always searching for inspiration, for support and useful tools to help maximize joy.
So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together.
We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming.
I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult.
There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression.
I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.
Olympic champ Shawn Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast.
There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me.
It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us.
We just have to find it.
Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin, Samira and Gracie.
I'm so excited.
On the bouncy bed.
You have surprises.
Many surprises.
Welcome to Suite 305, where the group chat comes to life.
What up?
It's like a way to say, like, hello, friend.
Hello, best friend.
Hello, sister.
What up?
Mira, nunca lo había hablado con nadie.
Excepto con mis hijos.
Mis hijos sí saben.
Yes.
Sé mi amante.
Uf.
Punch.
Qué increíble.
Ya, la telenovela.
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow Starburst.
It's limited.
No hay alguien que te falta, como que tú dices, me gustaría colaborar con esta persona.
This is Suite 305.
Listen to Suite 305 with Lele Pons as part of my Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Jake Brennan and on my podcast Disgraceland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names, the moments that shaped them, haunted them and changed music history forever.
Like how the story of the Foo Fighters and Dave Grohl isn't just about music.
Imagine that.
You're in the biggest band on the planet, as Dave Grohl was in 1994 in Nirvana.
And the phone rings and you learn that your singer, your friend, the reluctant voice of a generation, Kurt Cobain, is dead.
This is a story of fame, pressure, friendship, and the weight of fulfilling your destiny.
Learn more about the moment everything changed.
Disgraceland is part of the Exactly Right Network.
Listen to new episodes every Tuesday, bonus episodes Thursday and rewinds on Sunday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers.
If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
Millie Bobby Brown.
That's right, 11 herself.
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes 3 family life, and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
This blew my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown.
You have over 60 animals.
First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody?
And second, do you have favorites?
Who are they and why?
Yeah, I need to know about this.
Okay, I don't know where the number 60 is.
I've really got to figure that out.
And I could actually have over 60.
I just need to really know that number.
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.
It's a big bed.
In the bed, literally sleeping in the bed, yeah.
Plus we find out what she really feels about Stranger Things ending.
Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life.
I could have never have guessed it.
I started when I was 10 years old.
Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now.
Go check it out.
Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
So what is the effect of constantly being told or like implicitly made to feel like we're too much, from childhood even to adulthood?
Could have been last week that you felt this way.
First, if this began when you were a child, you were likely made to grow up a lot faster than your peers because you learned to emotionally and socially monitor your behavior early on.
You also, you know, learned how to observe the reactions of others and the reactions they were having towards you much earlier in life.
This increases our level of social hypervigilance.
That occupies a lot of mental space.
It basically means that if you're a kid and you're trying to pay attention to whether the adults in your life like you, you have a lot less time and attention to just be a kid and to just experiment and to just enjoy yourself and have fun.
It also has the lovely added bonus of making us prematurely and permanently rather intensely insecure.
Now, some level of insecurity is natural with age.
It's actually a good thing.
It's what psychologists call the looking glass self the ability to imagine and understand how others may perceive us, so that we can kind of meet important social norms, like We know not to hurt others.
We know not to completely alienate ourselves.
We know that's not good for our sense of belonging.
But for someone who constantly feels like their personality is too big for their body, that people don't like them or expect them to be less, that looking glass self becomes a hyper fixation.
That becomes something that we obsess over.
I always think about this as, like it almost creates a kind of like self-concept dysmorphia where, similar to body dysmorphia, we're like looking in this internal mirror and we're trying to figure out if like, We're too big or we're too small, or if we're just right and like how others see us versus how we see ourselves.
Like can we trust our own self-perception?
That's what's happening internally.
Feeling like we're too much also leaves us disconnected from our authentic self, whereby we're Our identity kind of splits.
There's this true self and there's this false self.
Our false self begins to feel more and more like the real us, because they're the version everybody sees and hopefully, everybody likes.
They're the version of us that is acceptable, the one that is smaller and nice and polite, and the one we try and force ourselves into.
But there will always be a disconnect that lingers and eats away at us.
We will always know unconsciously, probably consciously, that there is a part of us that really wants to be expressed that we can't.
Our relationships also might feel less fulfilling because again, it's the false self that people like and it's the false self that people are investing in.
And it makes it harder and harder, the more they invest in the false self, to actually reveal who we are and not feel like we're going to be rejected.
I saw this great quote the other day.
If you are hiding, how will they find you?
And that is an excellent example of what feeling too much and feeling like you need to hide does to your ability to really find your people and to be accepted.
Another thing that I don't see spoken about a lot constantly suppressing our organic, naturally occurring emotions and feelings and reactions has a tangible and very real impact on your body, specifically the body's ability to heal itself and to take care of itself.
There is a huge scientific link, I should say, between self-suppression, feelings of self-consciousness and poorer physical functioning.
It is a multi-directional relationship.
One paper from 2014 exploring kind of the interplay between our emotions and our immune system, reviewed a series of studies and found that the expression or suppression of four critical emotional states anger anxiety, joy and relaxation all modulated the production of cytokine, specifically cytokine proteins, in the body.
Cytokine proteins, these chemical proteins, they are what allow our immune cells to communicate and properly function on a cellular level.
Their production is being influenced by our emotional state.
When we feel greater levels of anxiety anger, frustration and social alertness, our When we feel tension from having to go a step further and suppress those things.
This reduces production, meaning our immune system and our immune cells are worse at working with each other.
When we feel capable of expressing those emotions.
On the other side of things, when we feel less tension, when we feel more positive, relaxed emotions, greater production occurs.
This is so important.
I literally never see people talk about this.
When we feel that we have too much.
When we censor our emotions and feelings to create a version of ourselves that we think will be more palatable to others, we could potentially be causing physical harm to our body and its ability to take care of itself.
Our body becomes worse at knowing what is wrong and being able to treat it.
And for what?
Literally for what?
The benefit of somebody else's comfort so that they may like us, they may help us, include us.
When we secretly know it's not us they actually like, it's this version of us that they enjoy more.
We are paying this debt for somebody else's comfort.
We are genuinely I don't want to say sabotaging, but I don't want to say making poor choices, but we are putting ourselves and our bodies through an uncomfortable and an unhealthy, but an uncomfortable state, just so that somebody else doesn't get insulted by us.
And that is a ridiculous bargain.
That is a ridiculous trade deal.
Now there is a huge part of this discussion that we've kind of swept over so far that has a massive, gigantic role to play when we discuss how society socially conditions us into being less.
That is, of course, the effect of gender and the fact that the insult of too much is much more likely to be directed at women than at a man.
This is a gendered insult.
It is.
Whilst I think anyone can feel like they're too much 100 and men are definitely made to feel this way in many circumstances women have historically been far more likely to be subsequently punished for taking up space.
And part of that punishment is language abuse like this that is intended to correct a woman's unsocial mannerisms and behaviors so that they act in line.
I feel like this isn't news to many of you.
We kind of know this is like feminism 101, but just to describe the whole process from like A to B to C, you know, from a young age A many girls are socialized to be agreeable accommodating, very easy to manage.
This doesn't just happen naturally, but because we are being conditioned.
It gives the impression that women and girls are just like this.
Again because they were environmentally made to be.
But because it becomes a social wide thing, it seems like a norm.
Because we raise girls to be polite mature, helpful.
Because we therefore confuse these traits as being inherently feminine.
Because we reward these behaviors more, even as a woman gets older.
What that means is that when somebody doesn't act that way, when the social standard of female behavior increases, isn't met, those individuals probably us are made to feel bad and are made to feel like they cannot perform.
They are not people who fit into society.
They are made to feel shame.
It also means that we start to self-police and self-impose these ideas of femininity on ourselves.
The issue is this behavioral pattern, like I said, doesn't allow for any divergence from the good girl standard.
So women are often placed in an impossible position.
You can either be good and you can be polite and you can be liked and maybe not get what you want.
Or you can be loud, you can be yourself, you can be criticized, but be able to be more ambitious and go after what you want.
This is called the likability paradox or the likability penalty.
It was first labeled by researchers at NYU and Northwestern and they were studying this thing called role congruity.
Essentially, what is often required to get ahead in certain industries is the very thing that makes people dislike a woman more based on their expectations for how she should behave, based on what they think a female behavioral profile should be.
Research repeatedly shows this qualities like confidence assertiveness, ambition are generally viewed very positively in men, not so positively in women.
I think they can actually provoke a great deal of social backlash and a great deal of like, sometimes even racism, disdain from other people.
You know, a woman who advocates for herself may be seen as very aggressive.
A woman who is confident may be labeled as very arrogant.
A woman who is passionate may be very bossy, emotional.
Time and time again, we see these like kind of stereotypes come up.
A woman who is just being herself is once more too much.
And this is where that very label of too much that we've been examining this whole episode becomes less of an observation and more of a social weapon.
In these situations, it functions as like a warning signal.
Like don't be louder.
Don't get any bigger for your boots.
Don't be any more visible than people expect you to be, because we won't like you anymore and you will be punished.
Like again, too much is a social weapon.
It's also a bit of a warning.
It's like this is the line.
Don't cross it.
What's particularly important to recognize is that this policing doesn't only come from men.
Women can also reinforce these expectations onto other women, perhaps even more so, in my opinion, at times.
I don't know if that's controversial, but from what I've seen.
Sometimes women are the ones who correct other women's behavior more.
And there's a few terms for this.
Internalized misogyny is probably the most famous.
Horizontal hostility is another one.
This is a term from social psychology describing when members of a marginalized group direct criticism judgment, aggression towards members of the same group, rather than challenging, like the broader system, because it's easier to win favor with the dominant group by tearing down similar people in your group, so other women
The one I think applies best here, though, is what we call the patriarchal bargain.
This was a concept first talked about in the 1980s by the Turkish academic Deniz Kandiyoti, who essentially said
Some women look around, they see the cost they would bear of fighting back against the patriarchy and they decide it would be easier to play it safe instead.
It'd be much easier to just keep playing along.
It would also be very beneficial to become a bit of a soldier for the patriarchy, hoping that the patriarchy is going to be nicer to them for being on their side.
And one way they do it criticizing other women who fall out of line, criticizing women who are too much to prove that you know I'm on the patriarchy side.
I'm on your side.
Don't go after me.
Go after them.
Over time, these experiences when repeated can create a very powerful internal narrative.
Instead of recognizing that other people's discomfort is the issue that people are allowed to just be who they want to be.
There's actually nothing inherently wrong with being too much, or having opinions, or being sensitive or loud, other than that we've been socially conditioned to not like it.
Instead of realizing that, many women, many people come to believe that I'm a problem.
This behavior that I exhibit is a problem.
I need to adjust accordingly.
I want to say, of course, men experience this as well.
I think they just experience it in different ways.
Many boys are taught that vulnerability sensitivity, emotional openness are unacceptable, and They are also labeled too much, just in a different way.
They're labeled too much when they express feelings that fall outside of traditional masculine norms.
It's interesting how these all combine.
When a man is called too much, it's also often in comparison to a woman as well.
You're being too much.
Are you just on your period?
You're so emotional.
Are you a woman?
You know, it's all combined.
Everybody suffers when there is this one idea of good, and that is somebody who is small, silent and palatable.
And the other version is not going to be accepted.
The other way and place that we can see this is in celebrity culture, especially in the treatment of celebrities.
I'm going to make this one final point, then I promise that I'll move on.
I'm sure a lot of you guys have noticed this or seen this cycle of female celebrities where we celebrate them.
We celebrate them, we get them as big as we can get them and then we tear them down the moment that they feel like it's okay to celebrate themselves as well.
It's like, we're going to praise you until you believe us that you're good.
And then we're going to make you feel foolish for ever believing so.
I've noticed this more and more the older I've gotten, where every few years there will be a celebrity darling who people just adore, especially if they're an underdog, especially if they're young.
And they will get all these endorsements, all the invites, all the opportunities, all the praise.
But as soon as they become even the slightest bit opinionated, the slightest bit a little bit too loud, a little bit too something, they're cast aside and they are kind of depicted as deeply unlikable, difficult to work with.
They're getting old now.
This cycle happens like every couple of years.
The actress and activist Jamila Jamil has spoken about this a lot.
She talks about what it was like coming up and how special she was made to feel, how welcome, until she got to a point where she was overexposed.
And then suddenly the press coverage turned almost overnight.
It blew minor things she said out of proportion.
It painted her as somebody who was too loud, who was rocking the boat, who was a maniac, who was crazy.
What she found interesting was like the media made money off of her when they liked her, and they also made money off of her when they convinced everybody to hate her for being too much.
This isn't just her.
This is a pattern that we see time and time again and, I have to admit, it's a pattern that has influenced my opinion of female celebrities from time to time.
For example, when I say these names, what do you think?
See if this has influenced you.
What do you think of these women?
Meghan Markle, Taylor Swift, Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Lawrence, Rachel Zegler, Billie Eilish.
It feels like they have this glory moment and then they're just dropped.
If you feel like you don't like one of them, can you explain why?
Can you think of exactly why you don't like them?
Where did that feeling come from?
I'm not saying that all women should be immune from being criticized.
I'm sure a lot of those celebrities have done things that are genuinely probably not great.
They shouldn't be immune just because they're women.
But A woman seen as too much will often be cancelled much faster and harder than a man with literally serious crimes to his name.
And a lot of that is tied up in... how we shame muchness in women.
And I think it needs to be examined from a psychological perspective, which is what we're doing.
Even Adele, one of the greatest singers of all time.
Do you remember when people were like, running tabloids that she was like too loud.
She was like too much.
She's literally a soul singer.
Like it is literally her job to have a loud voice.
So if this fear of being too much exists at every layer or stage of society, from childhood to adulthood, regular human to famous human, how do we unlearn it?
That's what we're going to talk about.
I'm so glad you asked.
We're going to talk about so many ways that we can do this, including some maybe unconventional ones, after this short break.
What's up, fam?
I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up, y'all?
It's your girl, Sam Jay.
And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports a new podcast from Together and iHeart Women's Sports.
Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days.
The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline and the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week.
Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports.
We'll give you our takes, our debates, and probably a few disagreements.
We'll talk to athletes, celebrate big moments and get into what's happening on and off the field, court track and beyond.
Because we're not just interested in what happened.
We're interested in why everyone's talking about it.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
So if you're already a fan or you're just getting into the game, there's a seat for you right here.
Listen to.
Everyone watches women's sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.
Okay, if you know me, you know this.
I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy.
So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together.
We're gonna have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people.
Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming.
I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult.
There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression.
I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety.
Olympic champ Shawn Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast.
There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me.
It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us.
We just have to find it.
Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
My first guest is Karis Houghton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin, Samira and Gracie.
I'm so excited.
On the bouncy bed.
You have surprises.
Many surprises.
Welcome to Suite 305, where the group chat comes to life.
What up?
It's like a way to say, hello, friend.
Hello, best friend.
Hello, sister.
What up?
Mira, nunca lo había hablado con nadie.
Excepto con mis hijos.
Mis hijos sí saben.
Yes.
Sé mi amante.
Uf.
Uf.
Qué increíble.
Ya, la telenovela.
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow Starburst.
It's limited.
¿No hay alguien que te falta?
Como que tú dices, me gustaría colaborar con esta persona.
This is Suite 305.
Listen to Suite 305 with Lele Pons as part of my Cultura podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Jake Brennan and on my podcast Disgraceland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names, the moments that shaped them, haunted them and changed music history forever.
Like how the story of the Foo Fighters and Dave Grohl isn't just about music.
Imagine that.
You're in the biggest band on the planet, as Dave Grohl was in 1994 in Nirvana.
And the phone rings and you learn that your singer, your friend, the reluctant voice of a generation, Kurt Cobain, is dead.
This is a story of fame, pressure, friendship, and the weight of fulfilling your destiny.
Learn more about the moment everything changed.
Disgraceland is part of the Exactly Right Network.
Listen to new episodes every Tuesday, bonus episodes Thursday and rewinds on Sunday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers.
If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
Millie Bobby Brown.
That's right.
Eleven herself.
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes 3 Family Life and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
This blew my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown.
You have over 60 animals.
First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody?
And second, do you have favorites?
Who are they and why?
Yeah, I need to know about this.
Okay, I don't know where the number 60 is.
I've really got to figure that out.
And I could actually have over 60.
I just need to really know that number.
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.
It's a big bed.
In the bed, literally sleeping in the bed, yeah.
Plus we find out what she really feels about Stranger Things ending.
Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life.
I could have never have guessed it.
I started when I was 10 years old.
Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now.
Go check it out.
Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
So we know that believing that we're too much is most certainly rooted in gender norms, in how we were treated as children, male or female and importantly, in other people's psychology as well, and how they treat us, based on their own insecurities.
How do we counteract all of these things, all of these forces that have actually very little to do with us?
Well, sometimes the only antidote to being too much is just being too much and just owning it.
The first thing we have to realize is that not everybody is going to like you.
It is a fact of life that literally nobody is immune from.
Nobody.
If you think that there is someone that everyone in your life likes...
I think you're mistaken, unless this person is like Dolly Parton or something.
But I also think you'd be surprised about how much this person has had to self-police and suppress to be this universally liked figure.
We suffer in one way or another.
We suffer if people don't like us because we feel bad, and we suffer if everybody does because we don't know who we are.
We definitely have to compromise parts of ourselves to get to that point.
Like there is genuinely no winning.
And I think that's a very important thing to remember.
Not everybody is going to like you.
It's just going to happen.
The truth is is that your too much is always going to overwhelm people who have been asked to suppress those same things they see in you in themselves.
Some people are going to be intimidated by your confidence.
Others are going to find you irritating.
Someone might find you disappointing because you don't match their expectations.
But if the opinion comes from them, it is their responsibility and it is their burden.
It's not yours.
They have ownership over that thought.
If they thought it, it is their thought.
The same way that you have ownership over your own thoughts about them, about people that you may judge.
We all have those feelings sometimes.
They belong to you, not the other person.
Instead of thinking, you know, I can't believe they made me feel this way.
I can't believe they think I'm this.
I can't believe they were made to feel like they couldn't be who they wanted to be.
The way that I could.
I can't believe they haven't had the opportunity to unlearn this.
I think pity is honestly one of the greatest antidotes to judgment.
At least that's what I've found.
Secondly, I think it is imperative that you start to accept that there are unique benefits to being someone who feels very deeply, expresses that, who is loud, who is out there.
Even if a consequence is some level of social judgment, you may actually belong to a very special group of people.
We have a name for them.
They're known as highly sensitive persons.
Highly sensitive persons.
Highly sensitive people make up only 15 of the population, according to some estimates.
And as much as we need our practical, emotionless thinkers or our creative thinkers or whatever it is, we need our complex sensitive, out loud thinkers as well.
Highly sensitive people.
If you think this may be you.
They are individuals who feel and respond to the world very deeply, sometimes even painfully.
A recent Guardian article talks about how Highly sensitive people may be the missing personality type.
You know, you just notice and feel other people's emotions as strongly as your own.
You feel very moved by the world, by art, by small injustices.
You may cry more.
You may be more expressive and passionate about things.
It may even influence how you respond to people.
Things like caffeine, things like noise, things like pain.
It's thought that a lot of it is actually also genetic, hereditary, I should say.
There was a 2023 study from well, not from, but conducted in Saudi Arabia that kind of linked being this kind of individual to to a kind of genetic component that's passed down through your parents and their parents that essentially influences how your brain processes emotion and responds to external stimuli.
Also goes without saying, can also be entirely not genetic.
If you're the only one in your family like this, Don't go and think that you're like adopted.
There's nothing wrong with you.
Sometimes it's just our temperament.
It's just who we are.
It is another unique part of how humanity has been formed and how we operate.
And I think when you realize this about yourself, you realize you are this kind of person, you know your life history starts to make a little bit more sense.
You can realize that criticism you have received since you were a kid about being too much might come from people who just don't feel as deeply as you.
They just literally can't access that depth.
They don't ruminate as much as you.
They don't understand what it feels like to not be able to let things go because small things are so important to you.
They just genuinely.
It's like somebody who is colorblind trying to think about what it's like to see in color.
You also need to appreciate that you are a needed and necessary part of society, because your character, your personality has so many advantages that are needed in the world.
Firstly, if the goal in life is to experience, you are already doing way more of that than the average person, because you're feeling everything like 200 double the depth that the average person is.
Secondly, you're better able to acknowledge and help people with their own struggles and kind of be that beacon.
Highly sensitive people make excellent therapists, excellent teachers artists, social workers, humanitarian workers vets, activists.
Thirdly, you are more likely to be someone who is quite creative.
You're more likely to have higher levels of emotional intelligence, greater levels of divergent thinking.
Again, another huge benefit.
Divergent thinking by the way, if you haven't heard of this is actually one of the greatest signs of pure intelligence that we know of.
It is the.
It's like a distinct kind of thought process that allows us to have unique creative, spontaneous thoughts, and it's a kind of thought process that allows people to connect ideas that often seem very unrelated together into one picture.
You know, you see a problem And you can think of a dozen solutions that are out of the box, whereas most people could only think of one.
You can maybe match small tunes to rhythms.
You have a business idea once a day.
You have all these different, creative ways of thinking about the world that connect disparate ideas.
That is a huge sign that you are quite a switched on person.
And so your too much personality in that sense is an asset.
It is an asset that has probably gone unappreciated by the people around you.
If you're feeling like it's something to be ashamed of,
Another thing that's worth doing is just considering if you are generally too much or if there are just certain people in your life who make you feel that way, meaning that this feeling is situational and relational, not personal.
I think it's often the case.
What's fascinating is that some relationships do seem to expand us, whilst others contract us, specifically ones that are based around shame.
The psychologist Carl Rogers spoke about the importance of this thing called unconditional positive regard the feeling that you are accepted and valued without needing to constantly edit yourself.
When we are around people who offer that acceptance, who accept our muchness, I should say we tend to become more open, more spontaneous, more authentic, more confident.
We talk more, we laugh more, we share our opinions without rehearsing them first.
We just feel better.
That's a very great kind of relationship.
The opposite can also occur, though.
Certain people make us hyper aware of ourselves in a restrictive way.
And the longer you spend around these people, the worse you will feel about yourself and the worse you will feel about the core elements of your personality.
You will believe that it is something to fix.
In this way, as I said, your muchness is situational.
It is relational.
It is not personal.
It is not a personal flaw.
This doesn't even need to be explicit.
It doesn't need to be somebody telling you you're too much.
It can be subtle.
Research on nonverbal cues show that we often instinctively know when somebody is attempting to make us feel bad about ourselves through subtle changes in their tone, eye contact, body language, the positioning of their mouth.
Even if we can't consciously put a finger on it, being around that constantly knowing in this far away part of our minds.
Like I don't think this person likes me.
I don't think they like who I am.
That has a lasting effect.
I need you to reconsider the nature of these relationships.
Even if you are scared, the other side of this is going to be lonely.
I promise you the space, the social space that you will open up, the acceptance that you will receive in the future from meeting people who love you for who you are, is going to be a million times more fulfilling than the temporary lack of loneliness that you get by avoiding these hard conversations or staying in these relationships.
I think it's so difficult to separate ourselves from people who we've known for a while, who make us feel this way about our family.
And we know that a lot of people who feel too much report feeling very lonely and very isolated and misunderstood.
But is that because you're just easy to misunderstand?
Or is that because people just don't want to understand you or don't have the capacity?
I think it's the latter and if they don't have the capacity, it means that there are people who do.
The right people will find you when you make the space for them to step into your life.
The right people will see your muchness And take it up like 10 levels.
They will see your passion as an asset.
They will love that you're loud.
They will want even more of you to love.
They'll see your muchness as more of you to love.
You deserve people who can meet your level of depth of emotional velocity and complexity with their own level of those same things.
I think the early wounds of feeling like you're too much can make us think that that isn't out there, that we are like this isolated individual who needs to be ashamed and put away.
But they are.
So with that in mind, I want to wrap up this episode.
I just hope that it's made you feel seen.
I hope it's made you realize how common this kind of childhood wound is and how many people feel like that they should be less than to find acceptance.
I realize...
Now, you know, I've been in the wrong environments for so many years of my life.
I'm so glad that I finally found the right ones.
Your muchness is not inherently bad.
I just want to say that you have just been socially conditioned to feel that way because of other people's expectations and, at times, their own self-consciousness.
That can be counteracted.
You can counteract that by recognizing three truths about who you are.
One.
Your muchness stops being a problem when the people you surround yourself with are also at that same level of muchness.
Two your muchness stops being a problem when you realize that it makes up a wonderful part of who you are and it is a valuable addition to society.
And three your muchness stops being a problem when you direct it in ways that are creative, exciting and and helpful, and then you'll realize that all that shame you were made to carry has just been completely misdirected and has been completely not helpful.
Embracing this part of you is going to just unlock a whole new side of life.
So I hope again this episode has helped.
I want to thank our researcher Lucy Davidson for her contributions.
If you want to learn even more about this feeling and about this unique kind of childhood wound, you can read the full episode transcript on Substack.
I will leave a link down below.
We will also have additional resources, including some of the papers that we cited in the description down below.
As always, if you haven't yet, please watch an episode on Netflix.
It would help us greatly.
Truly, it really would.
So I'm going to, again, leave a link down below.
I feel like I say that 20 million times every episode, but you know where to find it.
Until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, especially if you resonated with this episode.
We will talk very, very soon.
What's up fam?
It's sports journalist Ari Chambers.
Hey, what's up y'all?
It's your girl, Sam J, And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports a new podcast from Together.
We're breaking down the biggest headlines, the viral moments and the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports.
From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates and a few laughs along the way.
Because everyone watches women's sports.
Listen to.
Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Joy is essential and it's also elusive.
But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence.
Joy 101.
It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotb.
If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on-air chats.
Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Joy 101, and listen now.
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS.
I'm Jake Brennan and on the Disgraceland podcast I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories from music history.
These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else.
Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of.
Or that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bundy.
Listen to Disgraceland on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
My first guest is Terrence Hilton, Shakira, Luke, and Yerin.
We have surprises.
Many surprises.
Welcome to the Sweet 305 podcast where the group chat comes to life.
What up?
You're the only person I know that loves a yellow Starburst.
It's lemonade.
This is Sweet 305.
Here, oversharing is encouraged.
Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Pons on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers.
If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas.
And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of.
Millie Bobby Brown.
We talk about her new movie, Enola Holmes 3 Family Life and all the amazing things she has going on right now.
Plus, we find out what she really feels about the Stranger Things ending.
You have over 60 animals.
I don't know where the number 60 is.
I've really got to figure that out.
There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.
It's a big bed.
I'm literally sleeping in the bed.
Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Guaranteed human.
