Hey everyone, I'm Andrea Canning here with a bonus episode for Dateline followers.
We're diving into a chilling new drama series now available on Peacock, the streaming channel which is owned by our parent company, NBCUniversal.
Our colleagues at NBC News Studios are producers on the project.
It's called Devil in Disguise, John Wayne Gacy.
I gotta set the record straight.
I killed so many.
Gacy was one of America's most prolific serial killers.
In the 1970s, he kidnapped and murdered at least 33 young men and buried most of them in the crawlspace beneath his house.
But here's what's different about this new show from other documentaries and films you might have seen on the murders.
Gacy isn't the main focus.
Devil in Disguise is a show about Gacy's victims, who the young men were before they met Gacy — their family's heartbreak and trauma after their murders, and the systemic failures and societal prejudices that allowed Gacy's crimes to go unnoticed for so long.
Recently, I sat down with the showrunner Patrick McManus.
He was also an executive producer, director, and writer on the series.
We were joined by two of the stars of the series Michael Chernus, who plays Gacy, and Gabriel Luna, who plays the detective who helped crack the case.
What followed was a conversation about honoring victim stories, crafting respectful narratives in true crime and acknowledging the everyday heroes who solve those crimes.
Well, thank you all for being here.
Yeah, thanks for having us.
So Patrick, let me start with you.
Why did you decide to do this show and shape it the way that you did?
Yeah, I mean.
The story that I keep telling everyone is just the true story, which is that I turned it down twice.
Really?
Yeah, I did not want to do it.
And Universal Content and Peacock.
They came to me a third time and they had said will you just take a look at the documentary?
And I said, okay.
And I watched the documentary that is on Peacock.
It's brilliant.
The documentary is really, really amazing.
But I didn't come away from watching the documentary, wanting to do it because, at the end of the day, the documentary is very, very focused on John Wayne Gacy.
And so I said to them, I said look, if you will, let me do it my way, and I didn't mean it in an obnoxious way.
I just meant that I want to focus it on the police.
I want to focus it on the lawyers.
I want to focus on the victims' families.
And at the time I said, and I would like to focus it on the victims.
And to their credit, they said yes.
And from that day, they have held true to that.
As someone who for Dateline, you know, I sit across all the time from victims' families.
That's what we do.
And the one thing that I felt like just quickly watching it, you know right away I could feel how much you captured that the victim's family.
It's like the mom and she has that conversation with her daughter about Christmas and you know there's no food in the house.
I'm going to head out.
Why?
No.
Just for a little bit.
There's no food in the house.
That's not true.
Are we still having people over for Christmas dinner?
We should, right?
But like, that's what those families go through where like, what is the point of celebrating Christmas?
You know, we don't know where our son is or, you know, whatever has happened to your loved one.
And I feel like that was something that was captured really, really well.
Thank you.
Our team of writers were extraordinary.
They understood the job was it's not about John Wayne Gacy.
It's about like the wake of wreckage that John Wayne Gacy left behind him.
And that's murder, right?
The ripple effect.
Correct.
Yeah.
At the beginning of our show, you already know that John Wayne Gacy murdered these 33 people.
It's interesting because there's no mystery here, right?
There's no whodunit.
Yeah, there's no whodunit.
There's no whodunit.
And I keep saying it's more of a who were they?
And we are on the same trajectory.
The goals set forth by these detectives at that time, in that time period, the responsibility they felt that they held towards these families, trying to put faces and names and voices to the deceased only continues now with what the writers, our writers, did in that room and piecing together these really beautiful short stories and vignettes of the experience of these very young men, you know, young men and boys who had all the potential in the world and had it snuffed out.
Another dreamless night What can I do for you?
I don't know too much about construction, but I'm a real fast learner.
No time like the now or never.
Why did you decide to play Gacy?
Such a big role.
And you played him so well.
And sometimes he's creepy.
Sometimes he's like the guy next door.
Sometimes he's funny.
There's so many faces to him.
There are.
And that was, in my opinion, very true of the actual man.
And so I knew that the role would be a real challenge in that regard.
But I had this great initial meeting with Patrick.
He told me that there would be no murders on camera, that we were focusing on the victims, that there would be these short stories in every episode.
Then he said to me like I hope you're OK with you're not going to be in it all the time, and i was like thank god that's such a relief because like to have to embody john gacy all the time uh, just felt like maybe something i didn't want to take on, just for like personal mental health reasons.
You know, you've been told that you look like him and is that Here and there people would say that.
And, you know, it's not the highest compliment.
But yeah, you know, people would say like, well, you look like that killer clown.
You should see if someone would write a show or a film for you.
And so it was always kind of in the back of my mind.
Yeah.
And Gabriel, you get to play the lead detective, which was such an important you know role in real life for this story.
Yes, yes.
I was privileged to play Detective Rafael Tovar, the lead investigator on the case.
We got to talk.
Kid's missing.
Reported last seen with you.
I don't know who that is.
What did you take away as your most interesting moment of shooting?
Or the most interesting part of your character?
There was a lot that I...
You know, there's been doing this a long time and you're always excited when you feel that you grew.
There's something in you grew.
And I think, for me personally, i had played a lot of invulnerable characters, i mean maybe physically invulnerable, and that they were, you know, robotic killing machines or or superheroes with flaming skulls or okay uh, you know um, just just these heroes that seem to be.
You knew they were heroes by looking at them and, and what i loved about this part was just the mundanity of his heroism and and um, And I thought that was pretty special.
And you really captured the weight that the detectives carry with these cases, you know, and there's just some phenomenal detectives across this country that will not stop until you know their person is behind bars.
And I can feel that.
Well yeah, but it's an interesting aspect of the show because so much of the show is also about the systemic failure of Chicago PD to actually have stopped him.
Had multiple opportunities to stop him and didn't.
As teenage male employees start disappearing and nobody in your department looks into the guy.
But on the flip side of that coin are a group of detectives who were in that pit every single day, who had their lives upended.
I mean, I think they would never say it's PTSD.
But I think that we could look back and say that they came out of that experience with PTSD.
And they were dedicated to ensuring that every last victim was found.
And where we got really the inspiration for Tovar's entire journey through the season was from a statement that he made where he said to this day he's still haunted by the idea that he didn't find everyone.
We never wanted to make it feel like the police are the quote-unquote bad guys.
That is not it.
It was, the system failed and then the system very much stepped to the plate to attempt to figure out how to bring every young boy home.
And there's so many cases that... have that same trajectory.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Casey's final victim, Rob Piest, fell under the jurisdiction of a suburban police department.
And so in that way, it was one of Casey's many mistakes at the end where he abducted this boy from Des Plaines, and that police department had the energy and the time to focus on this case.
Yeah, and that's played—so his mother is played by Marin Ireland.
You actually like open with this mother the whole series, right to set the tone for what you were going for.
And she truly set the tone.
Yeah.
She set the tone at the table read and just gave this incredible speech to the detectives and was— was already there.
I mean, we could have rolled cameras on that first day.
I hate to... I will just take it one step back and say that she did it in the audition.
Yeah.
Like... Sure she did, yeah.
I mean I?
I mean this with the utmost of respect to these fine gentlemen and every other actor I've ever worked with, but I've never picked up a phone and called the head of casting.
I picked up the head of... I talked to the head of casting at Universal and Peacock, and I said...
I don't want to even have a conversation about this.
And I didn't say it in a mean way.
I said, just watch the tape and then just say yes.
And it was about 12 minutes later.
Yeah.
And everything's so deliberate.
Like you have scenes where the detectives are talking, but you're just looking at.
I know, mom right, and that's like on purpose, because that's the message of the show.
It was on the page like i.
I wrote it that way very specifically.
But the truth of the matter is, is that originally, in the first cut, we never left her it was.
It was a slow push-in for the entire scene.
We never turned around.
My wife is upset, as you can imagine.
He's got a job, So what's he meeting with this guy for?
He's getting his license this year, saving up for a car.
All right.
All right, well, listen, we have the file, but they usually show up.
Kids.
You know, I think, why we are all fascinated by these true crime stories.
I think what's the linchpin of all that is is how personal it all is.
And he's describing in cinematic vocabulary just how personal we got with Elizabeth Peace, with Marin pushing in on her face.
But when you listen to your podcast or your show or any other true crime stories, I think that that is what brings people in and draws them in.
And when we watch this, we see the human capacity for deviance and crime and murder, and also the failures of just people, human people who are doing their best or in some cases are, in some cases are neglecting it.
They're human beings.
Capability for neglect, you know there's it's all just extremely personal and i think that that is uh, really what what people's fascination kind of stems from.
Yeah, our dennis murphy, at dateline, always says it's the marriage, not the murder, even though the murder is, of course, very important, but it's the relationships.
Right that yeah, there's a title for your next show.
Yeah But, to be frank, I may put that up on the writer's room board in the future, because that's a very succinct, beautiful way of putting what the point of these shows should be, right.
Yeah.
Well, because so often it's not some boogeyman type character.
And I think that relates especially to this story is the fascination that it could be your next door neighbor, or it could be someone hiding in plain sight, and just how sometimes how pedestrian and normal some of these killers are.
Some?
Yeah, it's like more like 90% of them, you know, are...
Yeah, it's very rare you get like a Charlie Manson or a Night Stalker who just kind of looks like a killer, you know like.
Like run.
But yeah, sometimes it's just like the jolly chubby Polish neighbor next door who's like offers to shovel your driveway for you, you know.
Who shook hands with the first lady.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And by the way, you nailed the accent.
Yeah.
Oh, thanks.
That means a lot.
I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, which that's not exactly the same as a Chicago accent.
But just I know that sort of like cadence and rhythm and melody of the kind of folksy Midwestern.
And you know, sometimes it's.
You know, there are some scenes where it's very present and some scenes where it's not.
And I was very much on purpose because like, I feel like our version of gay seats and we were playing with is like leaning into that kind of uh shucks, folksy kind of.
You know, I'm so harmless, you know that was good.
Yeah.
It was really good.
I would like to cooperate with you boys.
Help out in any way that I can.
No, you were asking earlier, like, what's something that we took away about our character?
You know, I feel like there was some amount of like.
I had to find some kind of.
I certainly don't have empathy or sympathy for the man.
And I feel like there's this thing amongst actors where it's like, no matter who you play, you have to find a way in to like, love your character.
To understand.
To understand your character and care about.
No, if you're playing the worst person who ever lived, you have to like.
And this was the first—and I always believed that, like, in drama school.
And now I feel like that's BS.
Like, I—maybe I—I taught—like, he was a human being.
That's a fact.
He, like, lived and was flesh and bone.
And so how—
How do you make that final leap?
And I don't know.
You know, some of it was just like the imagination and creativity of an actor.
And I think if we're talking about what draws people to true crime, sometimes I think it's that.
These things that just don't make sense.
These senseless stories, these murders.
And we're trying to make sense out of it, right?
We want there to be a hero who solved it.
We want there to be a reason why he did it, a motive.
Yes.
There wasn't insurance money or they wanted custody of the child or, you know, jealousy.
Completely, yeah.
And for me, it's like sometimes you just get to a point where there isn't an actual explanation.
And sometimes there's just not.
And we do have datelines where at the end, it's like you ask, like, why did they do this?
And they're like...
I don't know.
You know, it's you don't always get it wrapped up in a bow where you have all the answers.
And even if it's wrong, you know why, you know, you don't get that every time.
You definitely know.
Yeah.
And the other the other thing that you didn't, you know, go hard on was was the clown theme.
Like we saw elements of the clown.
We saw the.
You were sitting at the table looking at the evidence with the clown costume and we see the clown paintings everywhere.
But it's not like you're going hard every second on clown clown clown, which is what Gacy is known for.
No, yeah.
And I don't know if we can have a spoiler, but you never see the full clown.
Like, you never see me fully, full face on camera as the clown.
And that was very, very intentional.
I think it was one of the things I first asked you in our first meeting was like how much of the clown are you going to show?
Because...
I was not interested in that part of the story.
And it's part of the story.
I feel like that got overdone in the 70s because it sold newspapers and you know the killer clown.
And it was something unique and obviously super creepy.
But it was it actually is it was a small part of who he was.
You know, you didn't need it, though.
Like, you were still creepy and scary and all of it.
You don't have to be in a clown costume to freak people out.
Yeah, but I agree.
I mean, I think the clown is the least creepy thing about John Gacy.
And if anything, I think it has done a lot of harm because it has sort of softened his image or kind of humanized him.
Because even though we...
Clowns are scary.
It is also sort of child.
There's a childlike kind of like innocence to it.
And I think it helped with his sort of cult personality and how like parts of like the heavy metal scene embraced him.
And like I think it was one of the many things we were hoping to do with this is kind of rewrite the story on him and be like this guy's not cool.
There's nothing interesting about him.
Like he was there was nothing redeeming about this man.
When you researched the victims and their families, what really stood out to you the most before you started all of this?
How young they all were.
As young as 13.
Yeah.
12, wait.
14.
I think he was, yeah, the youngest had just turned.
Randy Ruffet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean just to piggyback on that and it's a story that I've been telling quite a bit is that I have a a very strange ability to compartmentalize and not get affected by the stuff that I'm writing or the things that we're filming.
Join the club.
There you go.
Well, I think you sort of have to, right?
I hear you.
Yeah.
But I was flying back and forth between Toronto and LA every weekend to be with my.
I have two sons and my wife.
And this one Sunday.
It was after this particularly simple but also very powerful Friday night of shooting that I was having a football catch with my eldest son, who's 13 at the time.
He's 14 now.
And it just... For the first time in...
18 months of working on this project.
It was the very first time where it hit me and that I'm having a catch with my son, who was the same age as the youngest victim.
And I had to excuse myself and go inside into the bathroom.
And it was the first time that I actually lost it.
Like I really lost it.
And so I agree wholeheartedly that that is one of the primary things that affects you.
I think the other one is just is a little bit about how, and we specifically chose the stories that we chose in order to shine a light on sort of a different pocket of the system failing and the and the prejudices within the system that that allowed Gacy to get away with what he got away with.
So you know, we have a story that is about a coming out story of a story that is a straight love story.
We have a story that is a sex worker story.
We have a story that's a grooming story.
Right and again, we only could tell six, Right.
Out of the 33.
But each of them represented this just utter failing of the world to take care of these young boys.
And again saying it, I'll just keep saying it over and over again, that they had so many opportunities to stop the number at two, to stop the number at eight, to stop the number at 14, right.
And they just failed at every turn.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's such a good point.
There was such at the time, in the 70s.
They were deviants or runaways or you know that there was, there was some kind of judgment on the, on these boys that allowed people to sort of distance themselves from the humanity.
This is like a lot like another story.
I'm covering the Gilgo Beach murders where, you know, a lot of sex workers were involved and, you know, just fell through the cracks.
And were dehumanized because they were sex workers.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
And if it was I always say this like if it was the soccer mom in Westchester County, New York that you know if they were bringing down soccer moms, it would be 24-7 coverage, right.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that was one of the many things you know.
His last victim, Rob Piest.
At the time the paper said well, this was a good boy from a good home and all of a sudden everybody was interested.
But what Patrick was saying was that one of the things that struck me too is like his victims were from all kinds of backgrounds.
Like predominantly they were from sort of lower-class blue-collar homes, a lot from a similar neighborhood in Chicago.
Some were sex workers, but some were not, and some were straight and some were gay and some were figuring out who they were.
But, like...
I think all of his victims were sort of there was sort of this universal stamp put on them at the time and society just sort of like dehumanized.
Yeah, we can't do that.
Gabriel, I was curious is so I know I realize this was such a long time ago.
What like what happened to to the, you know, the detective you played?
And also, I don't even know.
To be honest with you, what happened to Gacy?
Like, so if you could just, I'm just curious.
There was a because of the approach we were taking.
It being a fictionalized dramatization of this story, it was important to us not to draw specifically from the real men and women who were involved in this case.
But after we wrapped I kind of went in and did my own kind of reconnaissance and found out where our Our hero was, and he returned back to Texas.
He is living down there with his wife.
I think he's going to be pleased with your performance.
Absolutely.
You're fantastic.
Yeah, John Gacy was executed in 1994 by lethal injection.
It was, I think, the only—the second lethal injection in the state of Illinois.
They just changed over to lethal injection.
Yeah, so he was executed.
Yeah, that's a scene in the show where the lawyer's saying, you know, shut up.
It's, you know—
Lethal injection is here now.
The death penalty.
You know, what are you stop running your mouth off?
Yeah.
And it was a big deal at the time.
There were protesters on sort of both sides.
There were people who were anti-death penalty protesting outside.
And then, you know, people who are very pro kill the clown.
And so it was a whole media circus like so many things around this case at the time.
You know, there are still unidentified victims.
And one great hope of mine is that maybe through telling the story and just like shedding a different kind of light on it, that maybe we aid in putting a name to it.
One or two or three of those boys that still are unknown, their identities.
That would be amazing if something like that could come out of this.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it has been a pleasure talking to all of you and congratulations on this.
Really just, I can't say enough good things.
Thank you.
Thank you so, so much for taking the time.
Thanks.
