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Hello my friends and welcome to our practice session.
In our practice sessions, we invite our featured guests to show off their negotiation and conflict resolution skills in a realistic scenario.
In this session, I want you to pay attention to what our guest does and not to what I do.
Because while they are trying to show off their skills and teach you, I am trying to frustrate their efforts in different ways through things like aggression, annoyance, emotionality, or awkwardness.
And then after the practice session, we debrief and talk about what worked, what didn't work, and what you can use in your next difficult conversation.
All right everybody, welcome to our sparring session.
I'm very excited today because I get to be a narcissist, which is going to be so much fun.
Today, of course, we have Rebecca Zung, negotiator extraordinaire, focusing oftentimes on high conflict individuals and people who struggle with narcissistic personality disorder.
And so Rebecca, can you kind of lay the foundation of what this sparring session is going to be?
So this sparring session, I'm going to be playing the attorney, which is something I could do.
I've been doing for a long time.
And I'm representing a wife who has been married.
And you are going to be representing, being the husband, not representing the husband, being the husband.
And you are pro se, my client, meaning that you don't have an attorney.
And my client is a mother who has been a stay -at -home wife.
She still has a couple of kids at home, two of them.
One is in high school, one is in middle school, and then one is in college.
She hasn't worked in a really long time.
She has a bachelor's degree in accounting.
She did do some bookkeeping early on in the marriage.
But since they've been, since she's been raising children, she hasn't worked.
She has really just devoted herself to being a stay -at -home mom.
She is 48 years old.
The husband is a CEO of a large corporation.
He makes $500 ,000 a year.
He is used to people jumping whenever he says jump and they say how high.
He is used to controlling everything and everyone in his world.
He's been abusive to her as a narcissist and also verbally and emotionally.
She's recently found out that he was cheating on her and that she found out that he was cheating because she went for an exam and was told that she has a sexually transmitted disease and she's never been unfaithful to him.
I don't know if I want to be this guy anymore.
Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for it now.
All right. This is going to be interesting.
She's looking for alimony, half the assets, and she wants the children more than half the time.
He wants a 50 -50 parenting plan because that means he'll pay less in child support.
He does not want to pay her alimony.
He thinks she should go back to work.
I think those are the issues.
Whoa. Okay. I don't know if my imagination will even let me go here.
But we'll try our best.
All right. Great. Rebecca, thank you for having this meeting.
Thank you for coming, Mr.
Christian. As you know, this is what we call a three -way meeting where we're going to try to resolve some of the issues.
As you know, the issues on the table are property division as well as my client is looking for support.
We also need to determine a parenting plan and child support.
My client is also asking for her attorney's fees, which, as you know, in our state, it has a legal basis of need versus ability to pay.
And my client is not required to cannibalize the marital assets in order to pay her attorney's fees, and you certainly have the ability to pay.
So just getting started, we would like to divide the marital home.
We would like to divide all of the assets equally, except for the fact that my client believes that she's entitled to an unequal distribution of any monies that have been spent upon on your paramours or other romantic conquests.
So we've had a forensic accountant look into what you've spent, and we've determined that you've spent $50 ,000 on women over the years.
So in addition to the equalization of assets, we are asking for an additional $25 ,000 to equalize the monies that we are calling waste or dissipation of assets.
We're also looking for alimony, and we're looking for a 75 -25 parenting plan and child support based on the guidelines.
If you are unable to settle today, we will be filing a petition that includes civil complaints of assault, battery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and asking for you to pay for her health insurance and for psychological care and other care needed for the sexually transmitted disease that you gave
to my client. We have not included this complaint in the petition so far, because we are trying to protect your privacy, but if we are not able to settle today, then we will have no choice but to ask the court to provide relief for my client on the fact that you gave her a sexually transmitted disease.
If we do add this civil complaint, we will be asking for a jury trial so it will be something that will be presented not only to the judge, but also to a jury.
Are you done? Yes. Okay, because that was a lot.
I just assumed it was going to keep coming and coming.
Is there anything else she wants?
Well, she just wants what's fair and what she's entitled to under the law, which is alimony in the amount of $15 ,000 a month permanently, so that will go until either one of you dies or she remarries.
Oh, this is funny. This is really funny because what's funny to me is you use the word fair.
There's nothing here that sounds fair to me at all.
I'm giving more. I'm paying for this lawsuit against me through attorney's fees.
I don't understand how this is fair at all.
And honestly, frankly, it makes me question your competence and legitimacy as an attorney that you're asking for something that's just so preposterous, just so incredibly beyond the realm of what is realistic.
Yeah, I understand that that's your position and I hear what you're saying.
How about if you tell us what's fair?
Because obviously, in order to resolve this issue, you're going to want to feel and walk away as if you got something out of it as well.
You're obviously a very successful guy.
You've gotten very far in life, and you obviously know how to negotiate really well, and we want to hear what you have to say.
So why don't you tell us what would be fair for you?
Yeah, here's the thing.
Listen, for me, I believe marriage should last forever.
And so this lawsuit, this preposterous divorce thing, this is not something that I wanted.
This is something that was thrust upon me.
And instead of trying to work out our problems, now she's dragging me through the mud, and then she wants me to pay for it, and not just pay for it now, but then pay for it until I die.
That's insane. That's insane.
And so again, going back to what you said about being fair, this is not fair.
So what I want is for this lawsuit to go away, and I want her to get back in line so we can start to work things out.
I understand that that's your position and that you would like to stay married.
As a person who is a free person in this country and in this world, no judge is going to force a person to stay married to another person.
And I understand that that is not what you want.
But in this particular situation, it is your wife's choice to get a divorce at this time.
That's not to say that down the road, she wouldn't consider potentially reconciling with you.
But at this point, she's asked me to move forward with the divorce.
And so what I'm asking you, because you're a professional.
You're like me. We worked hard.
We earned our degrees.
We're smart people.
And I think sometimes she just needs a little bit of help because she's not really getting it.
And what I'm hoping that you can do is talk a little bit of sense into her so we can avoid a lot of this.
I mean, our children are suffering.
Our children are suffering.
She's being so selfish right now.
And if we could just get into a room and talk, then we could work things out.
But she's not returning my calls.
Nothing. And so what I would want to do, you ask me, how should we handle this?
How we should handle this is we should try to be adults about this, come together and work this out.
Well, and that's what she's here to do.
But working it out in her mind is not to end up continuing to be married to you.
That is not something that is on the table for her right now.
Not to say that maybe down the road, she wouldn't consider that.
Obviously, she spent a lot of years with you.
But at this point, that is not something that we're discussing, what we're discussing.
What are her complaints, though?
What's going through her head right now?
I don't get it. It is my understanding that she no longer wants to be married to you because you were unfaithful.
And she discovered that because you gave her a sexually transmitted disease.
That is going to be something that she's going to have to live with for the rest of her life.
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And so, you know, all relationships are built on trust and respect.
And she no longer feels that she can trust you and she doesn't feel respected.
Okay. All right. Whatever.
I mean, fine. You ask for what's fair.
If she wants a war, then we're going to go to war.
That's really what it is.
And I'm a great dad.
My kids love me. They gave me a mug that says I'm a great dad.
And the thing is, I'm not going to give up 25 % of...
I'm not just going to have 25%.
I'm sorry. The people around me are laughing.
They're like, who is this man who's talking?
Who is this man? Okay.
All right. Bringing it back.
The funny thing is, you're not even nearly as bad.
I'm like, man, he only interrupted me once.
He didn't scream at me and tell me that he was going to have me just barred?
What? I need to try.
I'm trying. I'm just too reasonable.
Okay. Let me try again.
All right. So, yeah, I think this is unreasonable.
I'm a great dad and a 75 -25 split for my kids.
Are they not at least 50 % mine?
This is crazy. And this makes me think that she's not taking this seriously and she's not taking me seriously.
She doesn't know who I am.
I'm the person who built ABC Corp.
I did. I did that. You absolutely did.
And the house that she's in is because of me.
And then she wants 15K in perpetuity.
That's preposterous.
So, yeah, if she's asking for 75%, then I want 80 -20 split on the kids, however that works out.
So, if you ask me what I want, then that's what I want.
80 -20 and then zero alimony.
The thing is she doesn't have that ambition.
That's not my problem.
She needs to go to school, get a degree, and get better at what she wants to do.
And then she can support herself.
That's not my problem.
And then attorney's fees, again, this is not a war that I chose.
And so, she's going to go to war and then have me pay her soldiers to attack me.
This is insane. It's un -American and I won't stand for it.
So, if we want to negotiate the end of this relationship, that's where we're going to start.
Okay. So, I understand your position and I hear what you're saying.
And what you're saying is that you want 80 % of the children and you don't want to pay any alimony.
And that if she doesn't agree to those terms, that you are going to start a war.
Just understand that your position is not based in the law.
And when we go in front of a judge, the judge is going to have to apply the law.
That is the judge's job.
That is what the judge has been appointed to do.
So, as you know, I sent you a, what we call a Rosen letter or a 57 -105 letter in Florida, which means that we believe that this letter that I sent you has a way to settle the case, a proposed resolution that we think is within the terms of the law.
So, going forward, if we aren't able to come to a resolution and at the end, you end up with something not as good as what we proposed, then we will be asking for fees and sanctions based on that letter, from the date of that letter forward.
So, I would think very carefully about the positions that you're taking.
As you know, you have - Here's the thing, Rebecca, I know the judges.
I know all the judges here.
I'm very, very well connected.
I've been intentional about contributing to the campaigns of everybody who's meaningful in this area.
So, I'm not concerned about your letter.
That doesn't seem constitutional to me at all.
I took business law while I was getting my MBA program.
That doesn't seem at all reasonable.
And so, to think that you're just going to pull the wool over my eyes in this just because I don't have a fancy law degree like you, don't forget.
I built the company and I have the MBA.
I can handle this. I know the law probably better than most lawyers.
And so, I'm not going to be intimidated by this silly little threat.
And the thing is, you didn't even consider my offer.
You came here and you acted like you were trying to negotiate with me, but you didn't even consider my offer, which I thought was pretty reasonable given the circumstances.
Yeah, we are considering your offer, but unfortunately, we don't believe that it comports with the law.
And if you do know the judges and you feel that they have a level of respect for you, then you probably don't want us to file this petition, this amended petition, that as you can see here, here's a copy of the amended petition that we've already drafted.
If we don't settle today, I will be filing it tomorrow.
And it will expose you for having this sexually transmitted disease.
This is a pleading that will be filed with the court.
It will be public information.
And now the judges will also know about it.
In addition to that, here's a copy of a motion to appoint a child custody evaluator that we have already also drafted, but not filed.
It will be filed tomorrow.
And if that is the case, we will be asking for a psychological evaluation of you and her.
And we will be asking this person to be appointed, who is a psychological professional, who will look into everything and talk to everybody.
So including potentially people at your office, at your work, the people who work with you, potential clients, everyone is going to know.
We are going to be deposing people about your activities, your conquests, including your secretary, including people who work closely with you.
And they will all now know about the fact that you gave your wife a sexually transmitted disease, and that you have been abusive to your wife and to your children.
Is that really what you want?
It's not what I want.
And it's not going to happen because none of it is true.
She's lying to you.
Remember, the evidence you have is just her words versus mine.
That's the first thing.
And again, you acted like this was a negotiation.
You acted like you wanted to hear what I said.
I told you what I said.
And then you just respond with some ridiculous threats.
I'm just not going to fall for these tricks.
And if you're not going to negotiate in good faith, then I'm going to have to do what I can.
And I'm going to try to make sure that I'm going to talk to a lawyer and talk about what kind of sanctions we could potentially put in place.
And I feel like these are the types of activities that give lawyers a bad name.
I do recommend that you get a lawyer.
I highly recommend that you get a lawyer.
I think that that would be a fantastic idea.
And these are not baseless threats.
As you can see, we've already created all of these trial exhibits.
And here's an exhibit of how many times you have lied to your spouse.
And here's an exhibit of her medical records.
And here's an exhibit of other types of things that you've done to the children and the times that you didn't show up to pick them up.
And we have summaries, and we have emails, and we have text messages.
And everything to back it up.
And we also have tons of potential witnesses who will be able to testify to this.
So it's not a threat.
It really is just, if we go to trial, we will have no choice but to use the information that we have at our disposal.
Okay. And scene. This is good.
This was fantastic.
Awesome work. Awesome work.
My gosh, I was starting to hate myself more and more every time I say something.
Well, you know, a narcissist do actually hate themselves.
I mean, they do, but they try to deflect all of that into, it's your fault and your problem, you know, all of that.
So, wow, this was great.
And so let me give a quick breakdown.
And for people who, maybe this is their first time listening, listen, okay, this was me on my absolute worst behavior.
Usually I'm difficult, but not, you know, that bad.
But your tone, first of all, just your tone was impeccable the whole time.
You never, it never wavered.
And the thing is, I, as this playing this role, I wanted you to engage with me.
It's like, I wanted this conversation to just go down and down and down.
But you never, you never took the bait and you just kept on, just conveying your message calmly and clearly.
And you talked about the narcissistic supply in the episode, and it was very clear.
You made it clear. Yeah, you're, it's in jeopardy.
And my reputation as the CEO of ABC Corp.
I felt that. I said, wow.
And you kept hitting it.
You kept on going back to it.
You said it at the beginning and then you kept on letting in, saying it over and over and over again, but not in like an unduly aggressive way.
And I think that really shows the difference between what I consider a threat and a warning because you were letting us know a warning, the natural consequence of my continued bad behavior.
Hey, Kwame, the choice is yours.
If you want to proceed, this is what's going to happen.
You can prevent this from happening versus a threat, which is like, I'm going to hurt you regardless.
I thought that was a really great way of form, formulating it.
And also the timeline.
If, if we're not able to get an agreement today, then this is what's going to happen within the next 24 hours.
I knew what I knew that now there's a shot clock here, because again, I would like this to just drag on forever and just battle forever.
But you're like, no, we're on this timeline.
We're going to keep moving forward.
The choice is yours.
You can either agree or not.
And also, how were you able to maintain your equilibrium when I was interrupting, threatening your credibility, all of those things.
What's your mindset when you're in front of that type of person who's breathing fire at you?
You know, it's the same thing that I train my people on, which is, you know, not to, the E in my matter method is emotion and not to get emotional.
Because obviously, they're just trying to give you bait.
And if you take the bait, now you're sucked down into the vortex of that, you know?
I mean, they're saying whatever they need to.
They're basically in like survival zone.
So they're going to start attacking you personally.
And they're going to start to say things that they think are going to hurt you or whatever.
And so I'm just sort of like Wonder Woman with the bullets off my wrists.
And the other point that I wanted to make that I wanted to demonstrate in our conversation was the use of something that we call narcissistic fluffing, which is fluffing up their ego, which is kind of a barter of value for value, you know, basically saying, you know, I can see that you are a really
successful guy, that you must be really great at communicating, really great at negotiating and understand this process really well.
And then also, you know, say, I understand that that's your position.
I hear what you're saying, mirroring back to them what they said so that they feel heard.
You know, that all that diffuses the situation.
And I tell people all the time, you know, you might hate that person's guts, you probably do.
But if you're negotiating with them, that means you want something from them.
So you got to play the game.
This is great. And and I love how you said that play the game, because one of the things that happens is that I don't think people recognize which game they're playing.
So they might try to use this reasonable approach, this collaborative approach.
And that's the only game that they know how to play.
But if you're playing with a narcissist who is trying to destroy you, that is not going to work.
And what was really interesting about your approach is that in your tone and delivery, it's the exact same way we would do it in a normal negotiation.
And I think even more so in these really difficult negotiations, you really have to hold firm to those negotiation principles, you need to maintain your form, any break in form exposes you.
And so you're hitting them with an anchor.
And you're open to negotiating if they're willing to be flexible and have the conversation.
You did invite me to that.
But at the same time, when the person you recognize that the person is just attacking and is showing no interest in negotiating a good faith, you say, oh, this is the game we're playing.
All right, well, I'm going to let you know very clearly what the warning is and the consequences are going to be.
And when you threatened with I'm going to get a lawyer as a lawyer, I'm like, please get a lawyer, please.
I don't want to have to deal with you directly.
Yes. It's so funny.
I've done that. I've dealt with that before when I'm dealing with prosaic clients.
Those are the worst, absolute worst.
And I say, oh my gosh, I cannot break through to this guy.
All right. So now I'm going to bring the heat a little bit, scare him into getting a lawyer.
And he's like, yeah, I'm going to get a lawyer.
I'm like, yes, we have another adult in the room.
Thank goodness you hope so.
And it depends on the lawyer that you must play.
That's a good point.
Yeah. Yeah, that was really interesting.
And and I love how you continue again.
It's like you're the guns were trained on the narcissistic supply.
Anytime I moved, it's like you followed me.
And so I said, yeah, you know, I know all the judges.
I'm this really big, big deal.
And then you said, oh, that would be a pity if they knew.
Foiled again. Yeah, it was really, really, really great, really great.
And so, yeah, I really like the idea of narcissistic fluffing.
That's not something that we talked about in the previous episode.
And so is there any concern that maybe the narcissistic fluffing almost encourages bad behavior at times or is it I say to use it in the context of what I call bartering.
It's one of my three B's of communication and it's provide value for value.
You only use it when you are asking for something.
You don't use it just to do it.
That's brilliant. Yeah.
It makes a lot of sense.
So I love that. So narcissistic fluffing is a tactic that you use, but it needs to be done at the right time.
Makes sense. Fantastic.
Well, again, thank you so much for this.
This was a lot of fun.
You pushed me. Fun for me too.
That was great. Good deal.
And again, let listeners know about the podcast and where they can get in touch with you and the course too.
Yeah. So my website is rebeccazung .com.
R -E -B -E -C -C -A -Z -U -N -G.
The course information is there on that website or slayernegotiation .com as well.
You can just go directly there if you want to look about the course or you can go to my website.
And my podcast is Negotiate Your Best Life.
It's on podcast form as well as on YouTube.
YouTube, I put up content pretty much every day.
And that's just youtube .com forward slash Rebecca Zung.
Instagram at Rebecca Zung.
Facebook. I have a free Facebook group.
Come join me in that.
It's called Narcissist Negotiators with Rebecca Zung.
And I do have a free gift, which is my free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet, which as of right now, over 20 ,000 people have downloaded it.
So it definitely works.
And you just get it at winmynegotiation .com.
Fantastic. Rebecca, thank you again.
This is a lot of fun.
Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
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I'll catch you later.
