The LinkedIn podcast network is sponsored by TIAA.
TIAA makes you a retirement promise.
A promise of a guaranteed retirement paycheck for life.
Learn more at tiaa.org-promises-pay-off.
Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of negotiating anything.
The number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.
We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life.
Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, negotiate anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed.
Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly rooted in practicality.
So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on negotiating anything.
Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen.
Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Jordan, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
Yeah, we are excited to have you, my friend.
You come highly recommended.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, definitely. So I am the founder of a startup called 81 Sense.
And he started 81 Sense almost four years ago at this point, really with the goal of closing pay gaps for underrepresented and historically excluded minorities.
And we do this by basically supporting candidates through tough negotiations, performance reviews, trying to help them figure out if they're being paid fairly or not.
And we have sort of an interesting approach to doing this in which we try to go out and source the data that candidates need to negotiate effectively and to really kind of build confidence to do so.
So we've built this awesome network of at this point about 2000 plus hiring managers for critters, really senior professionals who basically give candidates feedback as they go through negotiations and tell them, you know, I think your offer is under market.
I hired a candidate last week.
Here's what they were making, fire in your shoes.
Here's how I'd approach that negotiation.
And you know, really our goal is to help candidates get the type of data and type of perspectives that they may not have access to, you know, within their own network.
That's great. And for the listeners, I think it would be really fascinating to actually talk a little bit right now about the synergy between data and confidence.
And so when you're working with people and you provide them with data, how, what is the nexus between the data and the confidence?
It's a great question. And I have a good story to kind of explain.
So I guess, you know, everyone knows the data is important for negotiation or that's what it seems like, you know, most people think, okay, I got an offer, it feels lower than I want it to be.
I'm going to come up with some data and that's how I'm going to persuade the hiring manager or critter to increase the offer.
And that's totally true.
But I think people don't always realize how important data is for their own confidence and for, you know, how they really position that ask.
So a few years ago, we worked with the candidate named Christine and she came to us, she was a data scientist, came to us feeling pretty, pretty sure that she was being underpaid and she was frustrated.
She'd been doing great work.
She'd taken on, you know, more of a management role.
She was getting great feedback, hitting all of her, you know, metrics and OKRs and things like that.
But her pay hadn't really shifted in a couple of years.
And so she came to us feeling a little frustrated and she was thinking of having a conversation with her manager.
So we took her compensation and kind of a description of who she was in her background and we sent it out to our network of advisors.
And for Christine, we got feedback from about 11 different data scientists, you know, hiring managers in her field, recruiters who focus on data science.
And all 11 of them said she was being underpaid by about 20%.
And they thought that she could easily earn more elsewhere.
She'd been doing such great work.
One of them even said like, you know, I'm hiring for roles on my team.
I'd love to interview you.
I think you'd be an awesome bit.
So suddenly Christine went from being a little frustrated and, you know, thinking of having a conversation to to pissed.
She was now sure she was being underpaid.
And that totally transformed the way she thought about what to do next.
Within a few days, she had scheduled time to be with her manager, made a really compelling case for why she was being underpaid using the data that we sourced for her.
Her manager, you know, was scared to lose her and was like, I'm going to get this fixed.
Give me, you know, give me a few days.
Then a couple of days came back and had found, you know, 10 or 15,000 more dollars for her, like pretty substantial increase.
But she knew she was being underpaid by a lot more than that.
And so she started reaching out to recruiters and applying for roles.
And within a few weeks had a bunch of interviews lined up, interviewed, got a job and ended up accepting an offer that and put her at $80,000 more than she had been making.
And actually a level up.
And she was now going to be at her manager's level at at a different organization.
And so I think that's to me the power of data is it totally transformed how she thought about herself, how she thought about her market value, and then what she decided to do next.
And it's not to say that she couldn't have made a case for more.
It sounds like she was doing great work.
I think she would have gotten her raised, but that certainty that she was being underpaid and that certainty that she wasn't being fully valued, I think that's, you know, something that really only something like data can show you.
What a great example. I got chills as you were saying that $80,000 on top of her salary, like, in addition, that's that's wild.
That's wild. But it also shows a couple of things.
First of all, these big companies act broke and then they magically find money quite frequently, which is interesting.
But also it talks, I like the term that you used, which was certainty.
Humans psychologically crave certainty.
But in this complex and chaotic world, it's so rare that we get it.
And when we're thinking about our career, this is something that's important to us.
It's important to us, not just financially, but in terms of status, in terms of prestige, in terms of feelings of appreciation and acknowledgement.
It's really tied to us not just financially, but also emotionally too.
And so there's a lack of certainty that comes with any types of negotiation because you can control what's in your control, but you can't control their decision making.
And so it seems very risky.
I have this thing that I care about.
I don't want to risk losing it.
And what it sounds like is that a major part of the confidence, like you said, comes from certainty.
I don't know whether or not I can get more.
And now you make it very, very clear.
Yes, I am certain I can get a lot more if not with this particular company, with another company too.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And I think, yeah, what you were saying kind of reminds me of this idea of, you know, you can either view negotiating through a lens of scarcity of, oh my gosh, if they don't say yes, I don't know what I'll do or if I don't get more, I don't know what I'll do or, oh my gosh, they probably don't have any more to give me.
Or you can view it through, you know, more of a lens of abundance, really.
And just Christine in this example really believed that she deserved more.
And if it wasn't going to come from her current employer, she was certain it was going to come from somewhere else.
And I think that confidence really shown through, you know, both in her conversations with her manager and then also in interviews with new potential employers as well.
Yeah, oh, that's great.
That is great. And it also gives us an opportunity to segue very smoothly into the concept of this episode, which is negotiation network effects or network effects in negotiation.
And listeners, I want you to know that you are in for a treat because this is a Jordan sale special.
We are at 500 plus episodes.
And I've read a lot of negotiation books and never have I heard of this concept.
So this is really big. So Jordan, please share your thought leadership with us.
What are we talking about?
What are we talking about networking network effects in negotiation?
Definitely. And I appreciate you helping me, you know, brand this concept.
But I think one thing I realized in part of the reason why I started 81 cents was because I noticed that the way you negotiate is a direct, you know, reflection or representation of who you get negotiation advice from.
So what I mean by that is, you know, there is so much nuance and specificity that comes into play in negotiations depending on kind of who you are, what type of roles you're applying for, what type of work you're doing.
Non-profit's negotiate really differently than startups, who negotiate really differently than, you know, Fortune 500 or big tech companies.
And if you're getting advice from someone who doesn't have experience in the fields and function and industry that you're working in, I can almost guarantee you that you are missing a competitive advantage.
There is so much power, I think, that comes from really having, you know, domain expertise and really understanding the nuances of kind of the field you're going into, that if you don't talk to people in that field, you're certainly leaving money on the table.
So I think a really good example of this comes with thinking about early stage startups.
You know, one of the most common types of compensation you'll get an early stage startup is stock or equity.
And this is not compensation that you'll get necessarily if you work at a nonprofit.
You probably won't get it, if you work at a Fortune 500 company maybe.
And if you work at a larger tech company, you'll probably get it, but it'll look really different and it will have really different implications for your compensation.
So as I thought, you know, as I went into my first role at an early stage startup, I talked to the best people, you know, in my life for negotiating advice and those were, you know, my parents and uncles and some previous business mentors.
And unfortunately, none of them really had startup experience.
And so while they gave me really excellent advice, they helped me build up my confidence, they helped me make a case, they helped me not second-guess myself and kind of move through some of my impostor syndrome, none of them understood sort of the nuts and bolts of what early stage startup equipment.
And so as a result, I just, I didn't ask for it.
I didn't know that I should ask for it, that I should understand it, that I should figure out what it meant.
And so that was kind of one of my key learnings behind starting to eat one sense is that if you're not getting feedback from people who kind of represent the field you're going into or the field you want to go into, you're certainly missing out an opportunity to negotiate more.
And I think that this is a problem that, I mean, I think it affects everyone, but I think it especially impacts underrepresented candidates who may not have really substantial networks in the fields that they're going into.
Absolutely. Yeah. And tell me what you think about this little analysis here.
When I think about culture, we have a negotiation expert on our team who does trainings, Mark Davis.
And the way he defines culture is really interesting.
He says it's a simple way to think about it is just the way we do things.
That is your culture. And you can think about it as a macro sense country to country, those type of things, but on a more micro sense, even within a company, there are different departments with different cultures.
And when we think about the network that we have, there's going to be a culture within that network.
And so let's think about a negotiation culture within that network.
So if you're like, for example, at a nonprofit, the culture of negotiation, like you said, is going to be very different.
But if you're a minority and it's you're a first generation college student, something like that, your culture of negotiation is going to be very different.
So if you come from a life of privilege, you are expected to do very well.
Your family has a certain expectation for how much revenue you're supposed to bring in.
And then they might you might say, Hey, I got this salary.
It's $150,000. And they might say, no, no, it's not.
Oh, you got it. You need to do better.
You better go back and ask, right?
But then if you're a first generation college student, $150,000 might be like three times the household income that you grew up in.
And so the people might say, Hey, or what's your salary?
150? Oh my gosh, you better not do anything to mess that up.
You said you were thinking about negotiating.
They might get mad. Don't don't do that.
And so the culture of negotiation is going to be very different.
And it's going to have an impact on the way that you approach these difficult conversations.
Do you want to get more of your favorite expert insights in a fraction of the time?
Join, negotiate anything premium today.
It's designed for busy listeners just like yourself.
And premium is everything that you love about our traditional feed.
Just package to save you time and make it easier for you to apply our expert insights in your difficult conversations.
There's no time to wait.
Join our premium community now and get started on your journey towards earning more and negotiating for the life that you deserve.
Make sure to start your seven day free trial today.
The LinkedIn podcast network is sponsored by TIAA.
In the last 100 years, we've seen financial markets swing.
New currencies come and go.
Decades of savings lost in days.
All showing that a retirement plan without a guarantee quite simply isn't enough.
So more than a retirement plan, TIAA makes you a retirement promise.
A promise of a guaranteed retirement paycheck for life.
A promise that pays off.
Learn more at tiaa.org.
Backslash promises pay off.
Have you been feeling the effects of stress, burnout or anxiety at work?
Workplace culture is changing, but we're not done yet.
Listen to the anxious achiever podcast to rethink the relationship between your career and your mental health.
Here's stories from psychologists, entrepreneurs, even athletes and celebrities.
Learn how they balance success and ambition with staying mentally healthy and walk away with practical advice you can implement today.
Get the anxious achiever wherever you find your podcasts.
You're totally right and I've heard so many stories from candidates of kind of those cultural differences showing up for them.
Some candidates saying, yeah, I told my parents what I was being offered and they're jaw dropped because it was two times as much as they ever earned.
So when I told them I wanted to negotiate, they said, you better be careful.
You don't want that taken away from you versus other people.
If their whole network is earning significantly more than them, then suddenly they feel as if their 150k offers low.
You know what it kind of reminds me of is that negotiation concept of inquiry.
You, whoever your models are, whatever numbers you see, that's going to kind of inform how you are responding to something.
So if your anchors, so to speak, are lower pay or a certain type of compensation, then that's what you're going to be focused on versus if your anchors are higher or even just like representative of the type of compensation in that field or at that company or in that industry, then that's how you're going to think, you know, interpret the offer.
Oh, this is great. And yes, I love the concept of anchoring.
That was one of my favorite episodes in 2017 that we did.
There's a full breakdown of the psychology of anchoring.
And now that you break it down in that way, it's getting really interesting because there's it's like a meta anchoring, right?
The anchor behind the anchor.
Right. Right. So coming into a negotiation, the anchor is the aggressive request that we we make at the beginning, understanding that the other side might negotiate it down.
But then we have to think about the anchor that is already in our own minds that informs the anchor that we decide to make or not make, right?
Which is really interesting.
Right. How are we anchoring ourselves or how is the way we grew up anchoring us before we even start interviewing for a job or start talking numbers?
Yeah, this is great. This is great.
Now let's let's say this.
So we know one path to get this and people should take advantage of that.
There's a link in the description.
81 cents essentially provides you with that that network that you need to gather the data.
Now if people, let's say they don't have time or whatever it happens to be, they they might say, how do I create these networking effects in my negotiations just organically by myself?
What advice would you give?
How do they start? Totally.
And you know, the process we run 81 cents, the reason why there's demand for our work is because people either don't have the network or they don't want to go out and ask their network because it's really uncomfortable to talk about money, especially if you decide to pursue a network that looks a little bit different than your kind of core inner circle.
But at the end of the day, you know, a lot of us do have access to people who are kind of representative of the right people to be talking to.
And so if you're a totally extroverted person and that feels comfortable for you, by all means go out and try to build your own network or or kind of harvested in that way.
And so what I would say in terms of how to how to do it is one, think about who the hiring manager is or if you haven't started negotiating yet, think about the kinds of hiring managers you might be interviewing with.
What sort of positions are these people in?
What sort of work have they been doing?
Are there people in your network who are kind of similar to these hiring managers?
Can you go out and build relationships with those people?
Even if you're not necessarily applying to their company, you know, let's say you're an engineer and you'll be negotiating with an engineering manager, can you talk to a few engineering managers in your network and try to understand kind of how they think about hiring, what they're looking for, and then also how they think about compensation of the people and their
team. That's one thing that can be really helpful.
Another consideration is kind of think about what your network looks like and I really do mean this in terms of age, gender, race.
So if you are a, you know, historically underrepresented candidate and you only talk to people who are underrepresented in the same kind of way you are, then chances are you're going to be sourcing skewed or biased information.
So, you know, let's say you're a woman in tech, your product manager and you talk to 10 other women who are also product managers.
Awesome. You are finding people in your field that is a huge win.
However, you're talking to people who have been historically underpaid by, you know, close to 20%.
So if you're getting numbers just from other women product managers, then you are probably getting numbers that might be lower than those that you would get if you talk to, to mail or, you know, people who identify differently in your field.
Yeah, this is great and interestingly enough, even though your target market is comprised of women and minorities, historically marginalized minorities, but you're recognizing the value of diversity of your own, let's say personal board of directors, I need to have diversity of thought because somebody who has had more privilege than me, they have a very
interesting and very valuable perspective that they can offer in my professional pursuits as well.
Absolutely. I think both are super important.
It's important to talk to people who have had similar experiences as yours because, you know, at the end of the day, there is bias in this process and understanding, you know, how should I be thinking about navigating a negotiation as a woman, as a woman of color, you know, that is important context to have and then it is also important to have the context of how do people
look differently than me think about negotiating?
What am I missing by not kind of pushing myself to get outside of my network, either in terms of the advice I'm being given or, you know, something as straightforward as the numbers, I might be getting lower numbers if I'm talking to other people who have been, you know, excluded in the way I have been.
Absolutely. And if we extrapolate this idea of network effects and negotiation and apply it to other areas of the business world, we can see how there is could be value there too because you're learning from other people as well.
So a lot of our clients are in the procurement world doing procurement negotiations and I think about it in terms of like cross-training, you know, you might have an athlete who plays tennis, but they get value of from playing basketball, you know, the footwork is somewhat similar in the lateral movement.
Okay, cool. So I'm going to do that.
It's a fun way to change the way that I think and approach it, but it also improves my game in tennis.
And so when it comes to the negotiation trainings that we've done, it's been cool to see how some strategies from different fields, different industries can be applied to new industries to create new creative and innovative negotiation strategies too.
So it sounds like this same concept would be really valuable in other fields so you can also get the benefit and improve your negotiation process and as you learn from other people.
Yes, totally. I love that sports analogy.
I think that's a really great way of putting it.
And, you know, it's hard to know what you're missing sometimes if you kind of stay in your small little bubble and it can be really important to kind of push ourselves to move beyond that and kind of figure out what we might be missing, what we might not be thinking about.
Especially, you know, with something as emotional as a negotiation too.
It's such when you're negotiating for your own compensation, I mean, that is loaded.
This is, you know, your livelihood.
It's how a lot of people are thinking about providing for their family, how people are thinking about paying down debt.
There's a lot of, you know, a lot of us tie our identity and our sense of value in ourselves to what we're paid, which is, you know, a whole other topic we could get into, but having people who are not in that with you in the same way, who may really not be as emotionally invested in you, I think can be really helpful for kind of bringing in a different sense of perspective
and for just being a little bit more rational.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And that ties really well with the going back to what we discussed it with confidence too.
Right. And I think we've we glossed over it as if it was understood, but for the listeners again, I think it's important to revisit this.
Understanding the value of confidence.
Why is that a necessary part of the equation?
Yeah, I mean, it kind of gets back to, you know, how much leverage you feel you have in a negotiation.
So if you approach your negotiation and you don't believe you deserve a seat at the table or you don't think that you have kind of a right to ask for more, if you don't believe in yourself, you're going to approach it from a position of fear, you know, you're going to be timid, you're going to be shy, you're going to feel like they're doing you a favor.
However, if you have a really strong sense of self, you know, if you're really solid in who you are and believe in your value and what you bring to the table, you're just going to approach it really differently.
It's not going to become something where you feel like you're begging them to give you more money or to give you that job.
You're going to believe that you have a lot to bring to the table, and they'd be lucky to have you and that just really is going to change the way you ask, the way you think about asking, even the way you interview, right?
You know, if you understand your worth and your value, you're going to talk about it yourself differently and it's just going to kind of transform the whole process and the outcomes you see and, you know, building confidence, it's one of those intangibles that it's just really hard to do because it gets really personal, it gets to, you know, what messages were you
taught about yourself as a kid?
What did society teach you and tell you and what have your past experience has been?
And, you know, unfortunately, I think when negotiation is one of the places where being confident pays off the most, but being confident isn't necessarily something you can do overnight.
There aren't really, there are quick fixes, but they're band-aids, you know?
And so I think probably one of the best things you could do to become a great negotiator would be to spend the year of your life just trying to be more confident.
I think that that will ultimately, you know, pay dividends, like literal financial dividends, if you can spend the time kind of like working on yourself and that doesn't necessarily even need to involve thinking about dollars or data or money or anything like that.
It's really just, do you feel good in who you are and do you believe in what you have to bring to the table?
Absolutely. And one of the things that helps people to feel more confident is knowing what to say.
And you were telling me about a really cool program that you and your team have created the script builder.
Can you tell us about that too?
Yes, definitely. So, you know, one of the things I think that can help with confidence kind of apart from that inner work I mentioned is just preparing, giving yourself the time to sit down and think through how you want the negotiation to go, giving yourself the time to talk to people in your network, not rushing this.
And I know that can be tough to do when a company says, hey, we need to hear from you by end of day tomorrow or we're going to take the offer away or whatever it is, but really giving yourself that time to work on it and prepare could be really helpful.
To the point of preparation, I think one of the most tactical things I recommend that I see make the most difference for candidates who are negotiating is building a script for themselves.
Basically thinking about how do you want to position the ask, what are you going to ask for?
And then what are you going to say if they push back or, you know, what are your worst fears about what the hiring manager or creator might say to you and how are you going to respond if they say, you know, we don't think you deserve more money or why should we pay you more?
This is as good as the offer gets.
You know, whatever you stay up late at night about worrying about like kind of outlining your answers to those.
And, you know, as much, I spent like three years telling people to write scripts and very often people wouldn't do it.
And to me, I mean, it's just so obvious that it's helpful, but you know, it can often be hard to get started on these things, even if we know that they're good for us.
And so we basically built a tool to help candidates write the first draft of their negotiation script.
And I would describe it as kind of mad lives for negotiation, where we ask you a bunch of questions and then based on your answers, we generate a script for you.
The idea is not that you should never read this script before you negotiate.
The idea is, you know, we're trying to get you 80% of the way there.
We're trying to get something down on paper for you.
And then you take it kind of the final 20% and make it your own.
And it's been really awesome to see.
We've had probably a hundred people use it so far.
And yeah, it's just been amazing to hear kind of what people, how people responded, how people have used it, just people saying like, wow, like I shouldn't realize that I was supposed to frame my ask in that way.
Or wow, even the questions you asked me made me realize I didn't understand all the parts of the compensation package.
Or, wow, it was so helpful being kind of given a first pass.
And then I was able to make it my own.
It's been been really cool to see you get out in the world.
Oh, that's great. That is great.
Jordan, thank you so much for joining us today.
This has been really enlightening.
And thank you for sharing this brand new Jordan sale branded concept of network effects and negotiation.
Before you go, can you let the listeners know again about the company and how they can get in touch with you?
Yes, definitely. So we are 81 cents and we provide salary negotiation support for underrepresented candidates.
And as part of that, we've built this really amazing network of hiring managers and recruiters who are there to support candidates through talking negotiations.
And that's where that's because we really believe in this idea that you only negotiate as effectively as the people who give you advice on how to do it.
And so you can check us out at 81 cents.com.
And yeah, I'd love to hear from you and thanks for the opportunity.
My pleasure. Thanks again for coming on.
Really appreciate it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
I want you to know about negotiate anything premium.
Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed plus so much more.
I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode.
And with negotiating anything premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for.
More of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation.
Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career, and every conversation with negotiate anything premium.
You'll have access to more high level custom design content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career.
Once I had a listener share that negotiate anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise.
Could this be you? What would that mean for your life?
I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients and I am confident that it can do the same for you.
Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life?
Click the link in the show notes to learn more.
I'll catch you later.
