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Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything.
I'm your host, Kwame Christian.
I'm the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute, and I am grateful for you and listeners like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world.
And today, we are here for part two of a unique reverse interview where Janice Berlingame interviews me.
If you've missed the first episode, first of all, go back and check that one out.
But here's a little bit about Janice.
She's a remarkable CFO, mother, board member, and double PhD student researching emotional intelligence and negotiation.
In part one, she guided us through the psychology of negotiation, the teachability of empathy, and staying authentic in every interaction.
Now in part two, we're going to take it a little bit further, discussing strategies for handling tough personalities, managing biases, and using compassionate curiosity to improve your negotiation skills.
Whether you're back for more or just joining us here, this episode has practical takeaways for everyone.
Let's jump in. How prevalent, and I think you indirectly answered it.
How prevalent is the use of empathy in every negotiation?
Also, are there times that where it works against you?
Yes. So I think it is.
It is growing in usage and prevalence, which is great.
But I think we are still societally and in our difficult conversations for the most part suffering from a deficit in empathy.
And then when it comes to, what was the last part of the question again?
Do you think there could be too much of it that could work against you?
And I mean, yes, absolutely, right?
Absolutely. Yeah, I agree.
And I had a guest on the podcast yesterday whose book is all about empathy.
She identifies as an empath, and a lot of times empaths, they are really great at sensing and understanding how people are feeling.
But sometimes it comes at a cost because we sometimes would prioritize the feelings and emotions of the other side over ourselves.
We would prioritize their needs over ourselves.
And that's where it becomes really problematic.
And I think what's helpful to understand is the distinction between empathy and sympathy.
So the way that I think about it is empathy is trying to understand how the other person sees things and feels about the situation.
What is your perspective?
What are your thoughts?
What are your feelings?
And then valuing what the person is sharing.
And sympathy is feeling what the other person is feeling.
So for instance, if there's somebody who lost a loved one, a family member who lost a loved one, we'll go in, they cry, I cry, right?
I'm feeling what you feel, and I'm commiserating in that type of way.
But if you bring that same sympathetic energy to a conversation, what ends up happening is that we make one of the most critical mistakes we can make in negotiation, which is trading substance for emotion.
We never trade substance for emotion.
So I don't give you more of what you want because you are in emotional distress.
We still have to have a high level conversation.
But if we are too sympathetic, we might put ourselves in a worse position to put somebody else in a bad position to our detriment in a way that doesn't serve us strategically in the long term.
I think, you know, your wife is a doctor.
They don't let doctors sometimes operate on their own family because of that reason, right?
Like if you have too much emotions, feelings, and you're not able to focus on the technical aspect of it, it could really harm.
Absolutely. And I think firsthand, because I ask Whitney all the time, she's like, you need to go to the doctor.
I'm like, you're right here.
Look at me now. She's like, no, this kind.
Another kind of doctor.
And someone else. Well, you're lucky to have someone at home.
But yes, doctors, it's hard.
Like surgeons can't do that to their own.
At least I haven't met a surgeon who said they could.
Yeah, they shouldn't.
Yeah. And I probably should have asked this question first, but how would you define empathy in the context of negotiations?
And, you know, this is a tough question because empathy in academia, there's not one definition.
You know, there are like themes of it that flow throughout.
And no one agrees on the exact definition.
So love to hear what your definition is.
Yeah. So let me start off with a general definition and then get a little bit more specific.
So it is understanding how they see, think and feel about the situation.
So what's their perspective?
What are their thoughts around the situation and what are their feelings, their emotions?
And then this last part, this is an addition based on the conversation I had yesterday with that empathy expert valuing what the other person has to say.
And so that is the first level of empathy.
But then I take it a little bit further and I made the distinction in my last book between intentional empathy and just I think it was automatic empathy.
So when we think about empathy, if I see you as part of my tribe, I look at you and I see a part of me, then with my mirror neurons, I'm going to respond in a similar way to you.
I'm going to be closer to you.
It's going to, my empathy will be automatic.
It's not always a choice.
So think about your child.
If your child gets hurt, you don't need to work hard to empathize with them.
It happens automatically because of that kinship.
But when we think about negotiation skills and these difficult conversations, we need to utilize intentional empathy.
So this is looking at empathy through a lens of a skillset.
So I'm going to intentionally utilize empathy as a tool in this conversation.
And I'm not going to let my feelings dictate whether or not I'm empathetic.
In fact, sometimes the less empathetic I feel, the more intentional empathy I need to pour into the conversation because there's something in my mind that is creating a barrier between me and you.
And I know that could be problematic for the purposes of the negotiation.
And so those are the different layers that I utilize to think about empathy in difficult conversations.
Hmm. The one theme that came up was cognitive versus effective.
That empathy has two components.
So cognitively it's that you can understand what they're going through.
And effective as you feel.
So it seems like you're describing a little bit of the details of granularity, various components of it and when to use parts and when to pull back.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Absolutely. Yeah. Because if I start to feel too much in emotions during this as a result of the emotions that somebody else is feeling, now we just have to think about it in terms of kind of like a teeter totter, it's a balance.
The more clearly I'm thinking, the less emotional I'll be.
The more emotional I am, the less clearly I'm thinking.
And so I need to make sure that I'm not becoming susceptible to the emotional contagion of the other side.
I need to understand the emotion while at the same time trying not to feel the emotion because that might lead me astray.
And I think the more levels that the deeper my knowledge and in empathy, but more specifically the deeper my knowledge and empathy in general, but the more I understand myself as an empathetic creature in these conversations.
Now I can marry those two things because there's one thing to understand the science and I think science, especially when we're talking about social science versus a physical science, I can't walk outside and start floating up and say, Oh, well, gravity doesn't apply today.
But I can talk to somebody else after having a difficult conversation.
I can approach it in one way with one person and be incredibly effective and approach it the exact same way with another person and it is offensive, not just ineffective, but like very detrimental.
And so when I understand not just the science of empathy in general, but how empathy impacts me and how I empathize effectively and where my empathy gaps might be, now I can read those feelings more effectively.
Because when it comes to emotional intelligence and difficult conversation, I think we have to recognize that the emotions will bring us data points.
A lot of times we cling on to these emotional thoughts and just whatever the emotion brings us, I'm running with it.
But when I start to feel certain things, I start to get a little bit more curious about it.
Okay, I'm talking to Janice and I immediately don't agree with what she's saying.
She hasn't even finished her sentence.
What was that? What bias do I have that's holding me back?
And when I can understand it that way, I can course correct very quickly and recognize that feeling was not truly legitimate.
It's a signal of something that's in my heart or my mind, but it's not something that should be determinative or direct me in these conversations.
So the more you understand yourself, and the more you understand the science in general, the more adaptable and flexible you can be in the conversation.
I think that explains why negotiations is such a draining process sometimes because your receptors are on and you're constantly gauging your own emotions, their emotions, understanding what's going through in their mind, how to adapt to that and how to influence them through what they're telling you.
It's like a mental marathon.
So afterwards, you're like, oh, I need to just not think about something for a while.
Just meditate after a negotiation.
Ooh, it's tough. It is if you want to be good at it, unless you just go in through the motions and like step one, step two, I would think that doesn't produce positive or favorable outcomes most of the time.
No, not usually. So we're almost there.
Are you okay on the time?
Just want to... Oh, this is fun for me.
This is great. So since you described how you use empathy, can you describe the conscious use of it in maybe like a most recent experience to achieve a positive outcome?
So just deeper exploration of like what's in Kwame's mind as he goes through a negotiation process when it comes to empathy?
Yes. Okay. So I'm going to try to get various examples here.
For instance, I just got an exciting new gig that will be actually happening this week.
I found out yesterday.
Thank you. So I did a presentation with them last week in California, and then I had a webinar set up for Friday, and after seeing me in person in California, they're like, we'll pay you more to come in person in New York and do it.
So that was the last second thing.
And then I have a gig in Minnesota the next day.
And so for me, I'm super excited about it.
It's great. But I also recognize that when I travel, it's really exciting for me, but not very exciting for my family.
So for me, using empathy, I can use that empathy before I even get into the conversation to change the way that I approach it.
So for instance, if I'm talking to one of my colleagues at work or a friend, I'm excited.
I'm saying, I'm going to New York to hang out with LinkedIn.
This is going to be great.
But then when I come to talk to Whitney and my mom, who helps out with the boys and the boys about it, I'm going to say, hey, I have some news.
So this Friday, I'm going to have to leave a little bit earlier, right?
I'm changing my approach because even before the conversation I'm empathizing, then I'm listening to their response and then flowing off of that.
Are they devastated?
They weren't devastated because I was going to be gone anyway, but they were more curious.
So it changed like my tone in that conversation.
Another example is when people come to us a lot of times, depending on the client and the situation, it can be a really tough situation.
And I get really excited when I see a problem I know I can solve, but they are often going to a really tough time.
And so I need to stay with them and empathize with them during that conversation to recognize, hey, this is hard, this is challenging, and there's a way through it.
And then also in the negotiations with more transactional clients, I recognize there's a little bit of testing that I think almost has to happen where they're saying, well, you're coming in as a negotiation expert, how good are you and your team at negotiating itself?
So we have to display the skill that we're going to be brought in to teach.
And so empathy in those more transactional business negotiations sometimes manifests itself differently because I want to make sure that we are advocating for the American Negotiation Institute and putting ourselves in a good position while at the same time not doing unnecessary damage to the relationship
and the process. So it's the ability to balance and understand the different emotional needs from each party that I'm talking to and flow and give the person what they need while still making sure that I accomplish my goals.
The flowing concept, adapting and constantly fine tuning.
So has there been challenges that you face in expressing empathy, doing negotiations, like potential barriers you faced?
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Yeah, for sure. And I think if anybody answers otherwise, that's just untrue.
Definitely gonna be challenges.
And the challenges come in different ways, because there might be a time where somebody disrespects you, they give you an offer that you think is beyond the pale, and you have to still carry yourself with a level of dignity and respect, even when you feel you're being disrespected.
That can be really difficult.
If you understand value and maybe even that person previously understood your value and then they're trying to lowball you, that can be really challenging.
But I need to make sure that I am not leading with my ego and leading with efficacy as the driving force.
So I need to do my own mental work before I get into those tough conversations to make sure that I'm not triggered.
And emotional production is a massive part of that, not just preparing strategically, but preparing emotionally.
What triggers are my currently experiencing?
What might I experience it during the conversation and understanding and having a game plan for what I'm gonna do in the moment if I do find myself feeling emotional in that conversation.
And then also recognizing that sometimes the struggle with empathizing will come not as a result from anything that they did, but just because of what state I find myself in.
If I have a rough night with the baby the night before and I'm sleep deprived, it's going to be cognitively significantly more challenging for me to allocate effective cognitive resources to empathizing.
I don't have it. I've cancelled.
I've kept big negotiations because I was sleepy.
And I'm like, listen, this is it would be a disservice to both of us if I come in here knowing that I'm not at my best.
Dominic had a rough night last night.
I had to be there with him.
And I know if I show up today, you're going to get less than what you deserve.
So let's reschedule.
And so that's an example of being vulnerable, but also recognizing that some days you just don't have it.
And sometimes the best negotiators are the ones that recognize that today's not the day.
I might make a mistake that I cannot take back if I have this conversation at this time or on this day.
And I think that's an important part of strategy that's often overlooked.
Indeed it is because I don't think I've heard that discussed as much as the tactical strategies.
So really important point.
How do you differentiate or would you be able to between genuine empathy and strategic use of empathy?
I think they can be the same thing.
I think when it's at its best, it can be the same thing because for me, it comes down to intentionality.
If I'm going to be doing anything, I'm going to try to make sure that whatever I do is calibrated to get the outcome that I want.
And so if I can blend genuine empathy with strategic empathy, that's where I'm in my sweet spot.
If I become more emotional, then it's going to become more effortful to be empathetic.
And so I will accept strategic empathy in that conversation because that might be the best I'm able to muster in that moment.
And depending on the situation, it might not even be a situation where you are necessarily triggered and for whatever reason, strategic empathy is the best you can do.
Sometimes depending on the person who's on the other side, strategic empathy is the best thing you can do.
Because for instance, if you were to try to empathize and be vulnerable when negotiating with a malignant narcissist, they're going to use that against you in a really, really problematic way.
So as you are adapting and flowing and making reads, you might recognize that with this particular person in this particular situation, being too empathetic would put me at a significant disadvantage.
It might even be dangerous.
And I would be hesitant to come to that conclusion, but I would also be aware that might be the right conclusion depending on the circumstance.
So for me, the sweet spot is if you can be genuinely empathetic where naturally you vibe with the person enough, you have enough rapport, enough trust and you see them as part of your team as you're trying to solve this problem collaboratively.
If you can have that level of genuinely, that's great.
But sometimes if strategic empathy is the best you can do, then I think that's better than nothing.
And I think, yes, when you have a dial detector for who you're dealing with internally.
And depending on who you're with, you may not want to be too vulnerable with those.
If the psychopath dial goes up and up and you're like, okay, yeah, shut it off right now.
And we've unfortunately probably all encountered a few of those.
Yeah, for sure. It happens.
It happens. And unfortunately, if you can blend some of those tendencies that are in the dark triad of psychology.
Oh my God, I've met someone like that, worked with someone like that.
Yes, I'm very familiar.
Yeah. Yeah, Machiavellianism, narcissist and psychopathology.
Yes, I mean, it's real.
It is real. The scariest thing is, as you get higher up in the business world, in politics, wherever it happens to be, and you blend those things with intelligence and efficacy, now you're dealing with a different type of beast.
Hmm, certainly. And then you need longitudinal data to be able to confirm any type of suspicions.
So how about a strategic use from a standpoint of someone is just transactional and they're like, you know, along those lines, like just being empathetic, but really they're employing it temporarily with no regard for building relational equity.
Like, would you be able to distinguish?
I think with the right mindset, it doesn't necessarily mean that we should not or cannot be truly empathetic and invest into the relationship.
We have to recognize that different relationships exist for different reasons.
So when we're thinking about relationships, it doesn't always need to be long -term or friendly or things like that, but it should be, we should strive to make it as good as possible within the constraints that we have.
And so even if we're listening about the most obvious transactional negotiation, it might get a flea market or do buying a used car or something like that, I still want the relationship to be as positive as practicable in that instance.
So I'm still going to make strategic deposits into the relationship bank account.
I'm still going to try to get as close to the person as is appropriate in the situation.
And I'm still going to also recognize that we don't need to get drinks to be friends after this.
I might never see you again and that's completely OK.
But that doesn't change the fact that the relationship that we should try to establish is real.
And I think there's a fear that people have where they say the closer I get to somebody, the lower my guard gets.
And that's a problematic thing.
And they're not incorrect.
That's something that we don't talk about with trust enough.
We always think about trust as a positive goal.
But at the end of the day, what is trust?
If we just look at this as a purely psychological concept, trust is just a positive bias.
So I want you to trust me because you're going to listen to me.
You're going to share more information by being more vulnerable with me.
You're going to be more easily persuadable.
If I trust you and you tell me something, I'm going to believe it because you are who you are.
I trust Janice. That's all I need.
But if I don't trust you, there's going to be a different level of skepticism.
And so what we have to do is we have to try to mobilize the positive elements of trust as much as we can in the conversation, while at the same time being aware of the negative elements of trust.
So if I like you too much, my simple strategy is to put more space between our interaction and adjustment or decisions.
Because I know that if I'm vibing with you and I feel really good, I might make a decision or adjust my position in a way that's not good for me because I feel good.
And the example I always give is all of us can think about times where we had a friend who was on the bubble of close friend, but not necessarily close.
And when we were younger, they asked us, hey, can you help us move?
And you were vital at the moment.
No, for sure. And you sprinkled that in.
I wasn't ready. I just said yes.
And now three weeks later, I'm like, man, I don't even like this person.
What am I doing here?
Moving. I'm like, my muscles are sore.
What am I thinking?
So I think it's important to recognize that these are real relationships we're creating in these transactional interactions, and we still can operate in those conversations with this other person in a way that is protective and moves us forward.
And when you brought up trust, that is a huge section in my write up as well.
So it's definitely a critical component within this entire dissertation.
So I think you touched on the cultural part, Western Eastern.
But do you believe there are cultural differences in the use and perception of empathy in negotiations?
Can you elaborate? So yes.
And this I'll concede on this one.
This is more of a vibe response than something more empirical.
But I know that the way that leadership is perceived in different cultures, it affects the way that vulnerability and trust manifests itself in those relationships.
So when you think about organizations or cultures that are more hierarchical, it would be almost inappropriate for the leader to be really vulnerable in that situation, depending on the cultural nuances of the situation.
An organization does it a little bit more free flowing, a little bit flatter than you might expect to see that vulnerability manifest itself more readily.
And so I think the clear answer is yes.
But I encourage people to make the right read because as we start to think about the the cultural lens, I like to think about it through the lens of big C culture and little C culture.
So with big C culture, we have nationality, geography, jurisdiction, whatever it happens to be.
But when we have little C culture, this is just the way that we do things.
So within the same company, there are many different cultures.
So the marketing team has a different culture from the procurement team, which is different from the legal team, which is different from the diversity and equity inclusion team, which is different from human resources.
Everybody is very different, culturally speaking.
And we can see how maybe on the sales team or on the procurement team, it's a little bit more hierarchical and it's more transactional.
So there's less vulnerability, probably same in the legal department.
But maybe there's a little bit more flexibility and vulnerability in the human resources department.
So I think understanding the nuances of culture helps us to make better reads and comport ourselves appropriately for the cultural context.
So I'm a lot more vulnerable with my entrepreneurial friends than I am with my legal friends.
There's a cultural difference there, too.
I mean, culture is more than just the country geographically where you are.
It is also the corporate culture and the like you're describing absolutely different cultures for each department as well, even within the same corporate culture.
So can you imagine if you asked certain departments that are highly technical to do the marketing for the company or if you ask marketing to become engineers?
I mean, there's just there's definitely strengths that each department has that benefits what they do the most.
And so being aware of that is important as well.
Absolutely. So we're so close to the end.
I know you're like, oh, my goodness, how nuanced are these questions?
So do you I think you indirectly answer some of this, you know, like have you observed instances where lack of empathy negatively impacted a negotiation?
Yeah, for sure. And like all the time, it's one of those things where you're it's it's like asking me, a Caribbean American, when was the last time you ate rice or how frequently?
I don't even know how to answer that.
Yeah, what rice do I get it?
Exactly. So for me, this happens all the time.
It just varies in degree.
And I think an example is unintentional disrespect and invalidation.
So, for instance, if usually there's some elements of a substantive issue and there's some elements of an emotional issue.
So there might be a very real problem that is tangible and observable.
And then there's going to be the feeling that is attached to that problem.
And so in business or in your personal life, if you're having this situation where somebody comes with a problem that's causing them distress, and then you just say, oh, yeah, Janice, all you need to do is this, this, this, you're good.
And then I go and continue click clacking on my keyboard, you might have the right answer and still be infuriated.
You might feel incredibly disrespected by that and feel invalidated.
And when you think about these terms, it becomes it becomes easier to understand.
So when you think about respect, respect is really hard to define, but it's really easy to feel the lack of it.
And I think it was in conversations they describe it as oxygen.
It's like oxygen. Once it's gone, it's the only thing you can think about it in an interaction.
So when I think about respect, I think about respect through the lens of how the other person wants to be treated.
How do they really want to be treated?
And then understanding that and treat them in that way and recognizing that the other person will rarely articulate how they want to be treated because they think it's obvious.
So that's why it's important for you to understand the emotional intelligence and be able to make these reads.
Because in that example that I gave you, I can recognize I just gave you the solution and you actually seem a little bit more upset or not satisfied.
I need to double check and see how you're doing.
And then with validation, validation speaks to the the desire and value that you give to what somebody else is saying.
It's recognizing that even if you might not agree, there is validity in what they're saying to them.
And so as I'm empathizing during the conversation, I am going to be demonstrating that I am listening and understanding even if I'm not agreeing.
So from your perspective, Janice, what you're saying is this and that.
And because you felt this and experienced that, it made you come to this conclusion.
Am I getting that right?
OK, I can understand where you're coming from.
Just that does so much so much.
But a lot of times, especially when we're in a business world, we're moving fast and we might be triggered and emotional, too.
We don't make those simple emotional payments of respect and validation.
And as a result, the conversation can get off track really quickly.
Irony is it doesn't cost anything to pay respect, right?
And just the intentionality of reading someone is I think my dad's always described it as a moody index of the people.
So he says that when you go out, everyone checks the weather or when you're about to fly to a different like you're going to you're like, OK, what's the weather going to be?
But how often do people actually check the moody index of a person you're dealing with or a room when they walk into the boardroom to make a presentation?
How many people actively think about that home moody, the mood, the climate, the subclimate?
What's going on? So when you're describing that, it reminded me of my dad's like he's like an emotional intelligence nerd.
So he started us on this journey when we're five years old.
And that's why he has all these analogies, hence my dissertation topic.
But yes, you what you said resonates absolutely is the ability to constantly gauge what people are feeling, thinking your impact on them, not just your intention.
Sometimes you're different.
Absolutely. So I think he alluded a little bit to it like pay attention, show your respect.
How about additional tactical strategies or techniques that you find particularly effective in conveying or leveraging empathy when you're going through an application?
I got you. I got you.
So after going through all of these episodes, hundreds of or thousands, yeah, we're at 1300 episodes of the podcast.
Wow. So I'm trying to figure out what the commonality is between all of the indicators.
And so we had we came to we discovered two really important things and then we created something as a result.
So discovery number one, I've said it throughout.
Great negotiators adapt and flow.
They don't just have a they adapt and make the adjustment as necessary in the situation.
Number two, you only need three things to be a great negotiator.
And so beyond getting into any really rigid tactics or strategies, if you just focus on getting better on these three elements, then you're going to become an exceptionally good negotiator.
So you need to become a better listener, ask better questions and manage emotions, both yours and the other side.
And if you just focus on improving in those three domains, you're going to become much more effective in your difficult conversations.
And as a result of those discoveries, we created the compassionate curiosity framework.
So it's a three step framework that serves as a mental model during our conversations that allows you to make better reads and understand what to say and when to say it for maximum impact.
So step one is acknowledge and validate the emotions in order to lower the emotional temperature in the room.
Step two is get curious with compassion to mobilize trust, empathy and gather information.
And number three is using joint problem solving, working with the other side to solve the problem.
It's not me versus you.
It's you and me versus the problem.
And we're working together.
And so if there's an emotional component, we go with number one, no emotions, we focus on asking questions, gathering information, empathizing.
If there's no emotional component and we have enough information, now we just flow to number three.
But while we're working with the other side to solve the problem, they might get emotional.
We flow back to number one.
So it allows us to move and adapt and really maximize listening, asking better questions and managing emotions in one really simple framework.
It seems like you would have earned a PhD in negotiations through your sample size of 1300 plus case studies that you've thoroughly analyzed.
And you should put this framework in your name, the Kwame framework of compassion.
Yeah, it is. I mean, it's such it's it makes perfect sense.
And I mean, triangulating what you said with what I've been learning as well, there is that theme that is consistent.
And so that's like a huge validation in that.
And for me too. Not that you need any validation, but yes.
So this is now the last personal reflections.
Do you believe your empathy skills have developed or change over time as a result of your negotiation experiences?
100 % and it gets better every single day.
Practicing a single day.
Continuous growth because you do have a growth mindset, which is lovely because a lot of people have fixed like, OK, this piece of the pie negotiation is all we get.
But that's not necessarily it's not a zero sum game necessarily.
Right. So that continuous improvement and growth is it's perpetual.
So what advice would you give someone who wants to improve their use of empathy and negotiations like practical takeaways?
The easiest thing is just do it.
Just practice it because a lot of times, especially if somebody made it this deep in the interview, if there's somebody who is actually listening and learning and trying to get better, one of the biggest things that we have to recognize is that as people who carry themselves as intelligence or fancy
themselves to be quite smart, a lot of times really over -intellectualizing a problem is just another manifestation of fear.
So they don't need to learn anything else about empathy.
They need to get out there and have empathetic interactions and conversations.
That's all. And so I want to make sure that people don't look at this and think about it just in terms of an intellectual exercise.
It's not just that it is a lifelong practice.
And you need to actually be intentional about putting it into practice and getting better with every interaction.
If we want to grow, it's not a spectator sport.
Right. You can't just watch.
You got to jump right in and just do it.
Not to endorse any athletic brands with their model.
But that makes perfect sense.
And lastly, is there anything else you'd like to share about the role of empathy negotiations that we haven't discussed?
And I know we went into deep details, so there's no right or wrong answer.
Yeah, I would say this last point, empathy is not a concession.
It's a necessary part of persuasion.
And a lot of times, especially when you're in the heat of a difficult conversation, we say to ourselves, I cannot empathize with this person.
I can't give them that.
Give what are we losing?
What are we losing by empathizing?
But in the moment, it can feel like a concession because it takes so much emotional energy.
And if it's a really tough conversation, we might not think that the person deserves empathy, especially if they're not giving empathy back to us.
But we have to remember that if we want to move forward, if we want to be effective, we need to utilize empathy.
It's the foundation of effective conversation and negotiation.
Well, now, because of you, I might have to change my whole dissertation topic from originally the legitimacy of empathy negotiation to empathy, the sine qua non of negotiation.
You just told me it's a non -negotiable in negotiation.
Thanks a lot, Kwang -mi.
I really appreciate it.
Yes. Oh, that's great.
I tell you, it becomes, it's really fascinating to think.
I haven't had an opportunity to go this in depth in empathy and negotiation in a conversation.
So this is great for me too, because now I'm recognizing that when we think about foundational skills, we have to recognize that when we say something is a foundational skill, that means once it's gone, you don't have the rest of it.
It's massive. Yeah.
The lowest level. It's gone.
So people oftentimes, they become tactic hunters.
So I'm going to try to get this quick thing that I can say.
I'm going to get this incredible move that I'm going to do, and I'm going to catch them in the moment, whatever it happens to be.
And then they wonder why it doesn't work.
They go through these negotiation trainings and they wonder why it doesn't work, because if you don't have that foundation, it will not work.
And so, yeah, this is really eye opening to me just how important this is.
And it's been really cool to have the opportunity to actually articulate it because I've always believed it, but I've never had the opportunity to go this in depth.
So that's pretty cool.
It is. Because I'm just thinking if you have all this complex choreography, it's like in kung fu or martial arts, you have this complex, beautiful move, all choreographed, and you show up to the fight, and then they have a gun.
And you're like, okay, yup, can't flow with that one.
So that theme of flowing and assessing and just thinking constantly evaluating, pulsing, calibrating, reframing possibly, what you mentioned, this is so important.
Thank you. Well, that's it.
And I know we took a lot more time than allocated, so I really deeply appreciate your generosity in sharing your time.
Yeah, well, I appreciate your generosity in being willing to do this in the form of a podcast interview, because now it's not just me and you, it's thousands of people all around the world that are going to hear from this and learn too.
So that's really, really exciting.
Thank you. And I hope they're not doctoral hopeful, is that here are the 60 ,000 words, and they're like, no, we thought we're going to get a PhD, but no, thank you.
That's masochistic.
But it's important work.
And before you go, before we end the recording, just let the listeners know how they can get in touch and maybe learn more about your research as it goes on.
Yes. Well, I do eventually want to publish a book like you, so I will.
That's upcoming. But in the meantime, I'm very easily reached on LinkedIn.
So if you could find me on LinkedIn.
I'd love to engage in any conversations about negotiation related empathy or anything.
So yeah, I'm happy to respond to people that reach out.
Perfect, Janice. Thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
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