Today, we're talking about something that many think is not sexy.
Okay, parenting. This is something that's particularly interesting to me because...
I'm somebody who wants to have kids. I do.
I wanna have kids. that's sort of a goal of mine is to have children and, trying to make them good people so that they can spread love through the world, you know, for the next generation.
Like that's inspiring to me. Oh, snooze fest.
Yeah, whatever. So you know as I'm vaguely approaching this time of my life.
I'm thinking about parenting. I'm thinking about what being a good parent is.
I'm thinking about how I should be preparing myself to be a parent one day.
How can I start Now, and that's why I'm so excited to be talking to Dr.
Aliza Pressman today. She is a developmental psychologist and with nearly two decades of experience working with families and the healthcare providers who care for them.
Aliza is also the host of the hit podcast Raising Good Humans.
She has two teenagers, so... she's in the thick of it when it comes to parenting anyway.
And her first book, It's coming out January 2024, and it's called The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans.
Parenting is a topic that you could truly talk about it forever.
But we're going to scratch the surface today and start thinking about parenting.
So. I introduce to you, Dr. Pressman. This is an ad by BetterHelp.
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Do you think parenting... comes intuitively is it just like a human thing to parent or do you think that it's something that in order to be good at, you kind of need to research a little bit.
You kind of need to ask the older and wiser in your life.
I'm curious how much of it is instinctual and how much of it is learned.
I mean, you don't waste time. I don't waste time.
Okay. We're jumping right in. I have thought about this quite a bit.
And I land in two different places. One is Of course, some of this is just instinct and it's like our natural instinct. way of developing and taking care of our young.
And like, even if you didn't birth an infant if it's if you're the person in charge of that infant like things kick in but But part of the problem is that some of the things that kick in our instinct, they just might be leading you down a path that you don't mean to be going on because you go to the place that your childhood experience brings you to.
And so for some people, instinct is awesome.
And for other people, instinct, it's like people that you're attracted to, like Does your gut lead you to someone that says this is safe, but actually safety for you is... a memory of an unsafe home.
Right. So is there instinct? Yes. And also...
Like one of the biggest predictors of a positive attachment relationship with your child is is to have come to terms with your own experience in that relationship in your early years.
So you have to be reflective. yeah you know and so I do think that it's nice to find people that you feel like safe, trusting that they have, you know, like you just look at them and you just think, you know, and it could be your mother.
It could be just somebody somebody that you're like, I really like the relationship that you've developed with your child Tell me a little bit about that.
So that didn't really answer your question, but it's a little bit of both.
It did. Well, I also think, too, what works for one parent is not going to work for the next.
Like, do you think that the philosophy on parenting is consistent? you know, just in general for raising all kids?
Or does one piece of advice not fit all?
For sure, one piece of advice does not fit all.
And I think... Your ears should always perk up if somebody sounds like parenting is a religion.
I've noticed that. Right. Like what? It's so not.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's a red flag.
Like anytime where you're going to be a robotic parent because you have so much, you know, like. hear all the rigid scripts and all the ways that you should be.
Because of course it's different. It's different between kids.
Right. Like you have one kid with one temperament.
It's going to be different. But I do think there's an overall parenting... approach where we have research that suggests there's like one that's a little bit better.
And it's how you interpret it that will be different.
So there are three styles that people look at in the research.
There's four. One is neglect. That is obviously neglect.
We wouldn't be here. But the three styles are authoritative, authoritarian, and permissive.
And it's not like we all fit into exact categories.
So the way it's looked at is you look at both sensitivity, like the connection, the relationship, the, paying attention to the individual child and the other side of it, which is what's called demandingness, but really you can think of it as like boundaries, limits, control.
And authoritative parents are kind of balanced on both fronts.
They're both sensitive. but they also have really appropriate boundaries, clear limits, like you know what to expect.
And that gives a sense of safety emotionally. and a sense of safety physically.
And it gives you the freedom to be who you are.
Then there's the other side of each extreme.
The permissive is super sensitive, loving, delicious, amazing. so hard to give boundaries and limits because those parents typically feel like so uncomfortable with their children's discomfort from having a limit that they like bend in whatever direction they need to to make them happy.
And in doing so, this is typical, it's not always, but typically, those kids end up more anxious and more unhappy because you can't always –
Well, they don't ever rock. Yeah, like you don't feel centered in the same way.
But you have a connection and that's wonderful.
On the other side of it, look at kids whose parents don't give the sensitivity.
They're like, it's my way or the highway because I said so, that's authoritarian.
And those kids tend to just lie to their parents more because the rules are so rigid. that they become like great liars.
So if you know anybody who had really strict, like my ex-husband's parents were so strict and, And they thought he was so perfect.
He was crawling out the fire escape, going out, setting the alarm, like doing everything. everything that you could do, and they still have no idea.
But on the other side of it, you know, so the relationship isn't strong.
So you kind of have to decide as a parent, like, well, what am I looking for?
And then also, what outcomes do I want for my child?
And like you said, it's going to be different.
What I think of... As a as what I'm hoping for for my kids is going to be presumably different than what you're hoping for, although I'm sure there's like. a baseline of similarity.
So I would say that's the thing that... always you could lean on is all feelings are welcome.
All behaviors are not like. You could feel and be exactly who you are.
I'm still going to give you boundaries and limits and that's going to keep you safe and And the rest is like, do what you want.
Yep. How do you think the way that you were parented impacts...
The way that you parent your kids. I mean, that's such a loaded question.
There's so much there, but like... I guess, is it like you naturally will take what your parents did with you and... recreate that unless you stop the cycle.
Do we have to be honest with ourselves about... what type of parents we had and make an active choice to not be like them.
Or can we just sort of like hope it hope it kind of goes on its own?
Yeah. I think you answered the question in asking the question. we repeat what we know unless we're conscious of it.
Even the act of saying, I don't want to be anything like that is a conscious decision.
When you come to terms with the experience that you had being parented, you're inevitably going to be able to make better choices.
And there's just so much freedom in not just... going on that autopilot like i'm just gonna react exactly like you know, my mother did to me and her mother did to her.
But I'm actually going to take a moment and think...
Why am I responding this way? And I mean...
I still default. My default setting is very similar to my parents and I love my parents and they're amazing but You don't want to be like them necessarily.
I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I love them.
Yeah. But I don't think anyone goes into psychology, particularly this tiny minutia field that I'm in, which is developmental psychology. which is sort of how you come to be who you are and growth over time and emotional development.
Like, you're not interested in that because you were around all of the normal like things that we, think are easy breezy.
It's because I was kind of watching just... wildly interesting things.
Yeah. When do you think you know you're ready to be a parent?
Do you think that... there's a level of understanding you need to have about your own childhood, your own experience with your parents before you're ready to go and be a parent?
Or do you think that that's... something that you sort of learn as you go, you know, do you think that it's ideal and responsible when possible to kind of have that sorted out.
Beforehand it in a dream world. That's exactly what happens in reality. you're kind of born as a parent the day your kids are born and you're just like, in process all the time, but it definitely helps to have thought through this kinds of, all these things that you do to think about how you came to be who you are.
This inevitably makes you more ready, even if you don't feel ready.
I don't think there's a moment when... any of us feels like Like, don't you remember the first time you, well, I have no idea.
I'm going to make up a scenario that might seem ridiculous, but like the first time you drew your own bath and poured a glass of wine or something and you're like, I'm allowed to do this.
Like I'm, this is nobody's, I'm not being rebellious.
Like I'm just an adult now. Yes. That's a weird feeling.
And I think you still feel that way when you become a parent and you're just like –
Wait, no, there's nobody like no one's checking my work.
Yeah. Yeah. No, seriously. It's just weird.
But you... You start to just, you embody it because you have no choice.
And a really incredible thing happens to your brain.
So the first three years of life, biggest growth in our brains.
The next spurt is adolescence. And the third one is transition to parenthood.
And you can be adoptive parent. You can be dad.
You could be mom. It's not biological, but the brain actually grows the most.
It's like the third peak. Wow. Before the decline.
But it's so wild. And it's like the most. flexible and motivated you will ever be in your adult life.
Wow. And I think that's so cool. No one, I've not heard about that before.
Except for like my dad told me. He was like, Emma, I am not kidding you.
And he doesn't have the science to back it, right?
He doesn't know about this scientifically.
He just felt it. He was like, when I... Day I became your dad, like my brain changed.
He was right. Like he fully he was like, I didn't I could have never predicted it.
I couldn't understand it. And I think the same thing happened for my mom.
My dad is really reflected on that, especially as...
You know, he's always been sort of this creative, free spirit like also you know maybe more inward in a way like more focused on himself and his own creative endeavors but something just switched when I was born.
And it's interesting to hear that that's actually... It's like biologically true.
Yes. Isn't that crazy? And I do think a lot of this field...
You don't have to know the science. You've it's just you're a person and you're like, you feel it.
I feel this stuff. But I think that growth is so motivating.
And it's also just exciting to know that some change really does happen in the act of the caregiving.
So you don't have to be ready. I mean, it's great to get ready, but it's not like.
I think you wake up one day. Although I do think there's a moment biologically where you're like, I think I could have a baby.
Yeah, for sure. I'm not there yet. No way.
Thank God. Pivoting to co-parenting. Okay, here's like an existential crisis I've been experiencing recently.
Tell me. It's like, I mean, I'm kind of young to be dating with this mindset.
But, you know, ultimately... I want to get married and have kids.
Not the hot, cold thing to do. Excuse me, everybody.
This is rebellious. This is rebellious. This is punk together.
It's fully punk now to get married and have kids.
But... Dating through that lens is so daunting because you're like, all right, Not only am I trying to find somebody who...
I like for, you know, various reasons. You're also trying to find somebody who's going to be a good parent partner.
And that was... Not in my mind at all for, you know, years because I was just too young.
It didn't matter. And now I'm... feeling the weight of like I need to find somebody who check so many boxes and one of the most important ones being who's going to be a good parent to my child because I can do everything right and be an incredible parent.
Not everything right. You never do. But I can do almost everything right.
I can be a really good parent, but if the other parent is not. then it's like this poor child now, you know, What a bummer.
What a bummer. And so I'm curious... How do you know someone's a good partner for co-parenting?
Okay, so a couple of thoughts. The first is I think it's so cool to get to that place when you're when love becomes more than attraction and intense love, excitement and when you're thinking about like, wait,
What is this long term? I think it's a balance of like who compliments you.
And I will say, just to ease anybody's worry, it really only takes one person. caregiver that makes you feel seen and safe and secure and to have positive outcomes for kids.
So like a second one is great. Obviously that's even better. but you're not screwed if you only have one.
That's really promising. I mean, I wouldn't look for like a... yeah a dud we still shouldn't settle but yes but um you can really grow resilient, amazing humans with one loving adult in their life.
But I would say that because I kind of boiled down all this research into five ideas, let's say, principles.
Relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair.
Those are the five things that I think we all need to possess and have capacity for. in order to do our best in relationships and with our kids.
So if you're a person, for example, who's really good at… relationship, connecting, sensitivity. but you feel uncomfortable with rules, maybe you... find that partner that's really good at that.
And I think when you meet someone that is willing to be reflective and that is self-regulated enough to pause before they react.
Yeah. and when you see that they set appropriate boundaries. that they have the kind of rules for themselves and others that keep everyone kind of knowing what to expect and safe.
And then I think repair is everything because people in relationships and parent-child relationships Do not have like a beautiful dance.
It's messy. Yeah. But when you can come back from it, and this is all in the research.
It's like how couples repair. How do you come back from a dysregulation?
How do you come back from dysrepair? How do you come back from a fight?
I would look at that more than I would look at whether or not you fight because.
Interesting. That's when you understand that there's stability in that person or not.
Somebody who has a fight with you and is like, that's it. that doesn't feel safe.
Like the hard feelings part can't be a threat to the overall relationship.
If it is that person has to figure out what kind of experience they had in their early years. that makes them think that any uncomfortable feelings means this is over.
So I would probably, after going through all of the things that I just said, I would look at how they come back from the disconnect.
When I think about, okay, what would I look for? and a co-parent, right?
I think what comes to mind immediately, like this sort of eagerness easy answer is like somebody I get along with perfectly and there's no, you know, and there's no problems and everything's great and we're just...
Like, you know, we agree on everything and it's like, but obviously that's not going to happen.
No. That just will not happen. So, you know, it's sort of comforting to hear that it's like, who can you argue against? responsibly with.
Totally. Yeah. When we look at attachment relationships, like secure attachment, or if you've heard any of that stuff, anxious I'm very anxiously attached.
There you go. So, like, when you think about that...
What do we look for? We look at how, not how a child responds when a parent leaves.
We look at how the child responds when the parent returns.
Hmm. So the relationship isn't being judged by if you're screaming and sad if your parent goes away.
It's not about that. It's really about do you forgive them when they come back?
Are you back in? Do you reconnect? That's the sign of the healthy relationship.
Interesting. And so it's the same thing when we look at repair in adults. how quickly do we have to to come back and make like a bid for reconnection.
If somebody holds a grudge, if somebody like makes you prove your worthiness, if somebody makes you make up for it because you really did something that hurt them, What does that mean for their capacity for repair?
Because of course you're not going to agree on everything, especially once you have kids.
So I would pay such close attention to that.
Because that's the scary stuff. It's not when you're getting along.
It's like... How do we handle, and if you don't handle a fight well, or maybe you don't, right?
Like maybe you're the one who's like, when this happens, I'm out.
Yeah. If there is someone that you feel so safe with that you can try to The idea of not being out, of believing that actually... it was just a fight and it's gonna be, you're gonna have learned from it, you're gonna grow and you're gonna come back together.
That's a huge positive sign. Like they're bringing out the part of your psyche that's the most healthy.
Yeah. No biggie. No biggie. So no biggie.
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Okay. Your podcast is called Raising Good Humans.
Give me a little spark notes. What is a good human?
I mean, it's a little bit of a trick, trick name because of course, Who would I be to suggest that I know what a good human is?
But I know we all just know. Of course.
You know you don't necessarily the same answer.
But we all know that if we sat down right now and wrote down on a piece of paper for five minutes straight, what is a good human. we could each circle a few repeated words that just come to mind.
For sure. And that to me is the exercise that everybody should do to figure out who they are.
Who do I want to be? What is my center? I think the most important thing is that you are integrated. that your insides and your outsides are feeling aligned So that's hard.
It's hard to believe that your insides are worthy of showing up on the outside.
So if you can accomplish that. kind of worthiness for your kid.
I rarely see... Bad things come of that.
But I definitely think Raising Good Humans is about raising whatever you define as a good human.
And it's really raising good parents. Like it's really raising ourselves. because kids are going to be who they are.
It's not like we're controlling them. It's more like, can we water the seed that was planted to become the The flower that's going to bloom the best that it can while being that exact flower.
But I try not to say what a good human is.
Yeah, I get it. Because it's a huge... Because I can't.
Well, I don't think anyone can. There's not one definition.
There's not one. But it is true that we all... can feel when someone's a good person.
I mean, it's like, Does that mean that they haven't fucked up?
No. But it's like... It is very true that it's something that we feel.
When do you think... a friendship between a parent and a child is unhealthy.
And when do you think it's healthy? Okay, it could be totally defined by if the child, like if you're having a blast with your parents.
Mm-hmm. And you're like having a fun day and doing all the things you want to be doing and laughing together and whatever.
That's great. The minute it's unhealthy is when, let's say your mother or father turns to you and says...
I need you to take care of my emotional needs. it's like you want to feel like I, the parent, can take care of you, the child.
And I can take care of me so you can share your stuff with me. but I'm not going to, it's not that reciprocal, like a best friend.
Yes. You tell each other your problems. You share.
One of you is struggling. You take care of them.
The other one's struggling. It's very equal, or it should be.
With a child, that would be a red flag to me.
If like that mother has nobody to turn to except for you.
And then you as the child are like, I guess...
I have to be the caregiver to this person's emotions.
That's when I think friendship takes a turn that is unhealthy.
Yes, that makes total sense. So I think...
If the child feels comfortable to almost treat their parent like a best friend, that's fine.
Totally fine. But then it cannot be reciprocated.
It just can't be reciprocated. Interesting.
Because how could you set boundaries as the adult?
How could you give limits? How could you have rules in any way, shape, or form that keep that child safe? if you yourself are dependent on that child to come up with them.
I think it would also probably be challenging as a parent to be treating your child like a best friend and then to... have to go and enforce discipline in some way.
It's like, how can you discipline a child? that you feel like you're best friends with, it's uncomfortable and weird, which I can imagine then. causes a parent to not discipline when they should.
And speaking of that, you know, what is the right way to discipline a child, you know?
Is it... being super gentle and like being like, you know, whatever, is it being more explosive than, Is it different depending on... you know, the child and what they react best to.
In general, what have you seen is the best way to discipline a child?
I think it goes back to the idea of the all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
And so there are natural consequences. and logical consequences like if you are angry at me because you know and you're like I didn't let you keep your iPad and you're yelling at me. that I'm not disciplining that feeling, but I might say like, when you throw the iPad at me, I'm now going to take that iPad And I'm going to put it away because the behavior is not acceptable.
So I'm okay with you being mad at me. I'm not okay with you doing something dangerous with the iPad, so I will be removing it.
And that's a natural and logical consequence.
Right? Like... But if I said, this is my rule, I'm not going to explain why, and it has nothing to do with the crime. that's not very effective.
So I think you can answer almost any discipline question with, Did I honor the feeling?
Like, I see you're really angry right now.
That's allowed. Mm-hmm. And did I explain the behavior that is expected?
You can't keep the iPad on or you can't throw the iPad or you can't whatever it is.
And then enforce it. Like that's what I said.
And it's predictable. And I told you about it in advance.
And that's that. And then once your child knows like, oh, I'm allowed to have a feeling about this.
Yeah. You connect about, like, I'm not just blindly...
You know, I'm not just being a tyrant here.
I see what you're going through. And I'm so sorry about that.
And also, I trust that you can get through this feeling of discomfort. because that's part of being a person.
Wow, yeah. And I'm still gonna take away that iPad.
And that's just, that translates to every single scenario, what party you can go to, what your bedtime is, you know?
And of course, as kids get older, you collaborate more with them.
You ask them like, In your ideal world, what time would you go to bed?
You're not going to say that to a two-year-old, but you would say that to a 10-year-old.
And they might say something that feels totally unreasonable.
And then you might have to say, OK, that I my job is to make sure that you're safe and healthy.
So I can't say 2 a.m. Mm hmm. But I see that you want a little bit later of a bedtime.
Let's try this and we'll see how it goes.
So I think every single discipline issue can be boiled down to All feelings are welcome.
All behaviors are not. And I just have to be clear about it.
What about the tone of voice? I was just thinking about that because...
The thing is, is no, you shouldn't yell all the time, obviously.
But yelling... So if I... I don't yell a lot.
I'm not a yelly person. Yeah, me either.
If I yell... My kids would be either terrified or laughing because they would be so uncomfortable.
Yeah. If their dad yells, they don't even hear it.
He's a yeller. So they're not scared. Okay, yeah.
So it's actually more damaging when I use it.
Yeah. So it's like the tone ideally doesn't when you look at your kids.
If they're visibly scared, something's going wrong.
If they get you, you know, I one side of my family is they're very loud immigrants and So and my grandparents mostly were not speaking English in front of me and they sounded like they were screaming all the time.
Yeah. Nobody like no one was scared of them.
Right. It was their norm. That was just their norm.
So you have to almost look at how people are reacting in the family. if that family's natural cultural norm is just like, You know, it's fine.
But at the same time, In another household, that could be really scary.
So it's super dependent. And it's also the kids.
Like... There's a scientist that I think divides children up in this way that maybe sounds ridiculous, but it's so beautiful to me.
Orchids, dandelions and tulips. He studied orchid kids.
And what he wanted to know was, his name is Thomas Boise.
And what he wanted to know was, why do some kids... thrive in any environment like a dandelion.
And some kids wither like an orchid if they're not given the exact sunlight, water and soil.
Yeah. And what was really interesting is that when they are given the exact sort of support system that they need They bloom magnificently.
And who are those kids? They're mostly artists. creative people, highly sensitive people.
There are people who's you know, might be called thin-skinned, but really you might think of it as like you're just more porous, like you feel the air more.
They have... higher ear temperatures. Like it's a real thing being a highly sensitive person.
So to me, if I'm raising a child and I've got one who's more of a dandelion, who doesn't care if I snap at them and say like, grab your things, we're gonna be late.
But I also have an orchid who is going to be like, you hate me.
I'm better off just like taking a minute before I say something because they need a little bit more It's not coddling because they have to learn how to operate in the world.
Yep. But you're just like slowly – you're patient because you know –
They just thrive better with a more patient tone.
So I think tone of voice matters depending on even the type of child you have.
And if you have that orchid kid, you need to pay a little bit more attention. interesting it's interesting that you know the answer is not no you should never yell I know.
I mean, it's not a dream voice, but the answer is not you should never yell.
Okay, I'm just gonna say a word or a term and you tell me your thoughts.
Gentle parenting. I think it means different things.
I know. That's why I was... It's like inconsistent.
Yeah. Because you could say that it means all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. that the feelings part of it, that you're seeing your child, you're acknowledging them, you're paying attention and you're setting boundaries.
That could be gentle parenting. Right. But it could also be that gentle parenting is you never set boundaries.
So because it's not – there's no one definition, I like to –
I, the more generous interpretation is that what people mean is that we're going to take an approach that is child-centered around seeing how the child feels, what's going on, being sensitive, but that we'll still have boundaries and whatever, in which case, like with all things,
It's all back to the same authoritative parenting.
And it's just like... mindful parenting, gentle parenting, whatever the popular phrase is, but it's all it means the same thing.
We just like go through, um, different ways of talking about it.
So I have a reaction to it, but my reaction is more like, It's so unfair to parents because it's like so vague and it might give the impression that it's about like, something just soft to the point of not having boundaries.
And then parents are like, Am I allowed to have a rule?
Is my child allowed to be upset? Well, that's why I don't like the word or the term.
Because to me, it feels completely... Like, it feels... And this might totally be judgmental, but it's like, when I... read like gentle parenting, what comes to mind is like spineless parenting.
Like having no... backbone at all and just being like, You can do whatever.
Like, and again, that's without doing, that's just my like gut reaction to it. half the time, right?
I think you're right. I think that is the thing that a lot of gentle parenting.
And again, because it's so vague, you could have one person who's like, no, it's not that it's, alongside a spine.
Right. But the fact is the name... harkens the idea of like we're not going to have any uncomfortable feelings this will all be peaceful and calm and easy.
And that is... ridiculous and unrealistic so I guess it's one of those things where I would want somebody to define what they mean.
Yeah. Speaking of dental parenting, to what extent extent should we protect our kids from you know conflict and hurt and even danger at times.
And, How do you find a balance between kind of sending your kids out and being like, eh, I don't know, and overprotecting them.
Because, you know, it's like... You don't want to send them into a situation where they're going to be in danger, but also danger is everywhere.
So, you know, you have to let your kids go at some point, but you don't want to overprotect them.
So... How do you recommend finding that balance?
Okay, it's about resilience. And I think if you...
And of course, we want to protect our kids.
We want to protect everyone we love from having hard feelings and from experiencing difficult things.
But if you don't exercise those muscles and you get thrown into the world of... finding out that things can't always go your way, you end up weaker for it because you didn't have the hard experience.
So the way you could look at it is, is this a manageable stressor or unmanageable?
Will this stretch my child so they can grow or will it break them?
If it's going to break them, I got to be there.
That's the thing. Like they're not ready for that.
If it's going to stretch them, they're going to be uncomfortable.
They're not going to like it That builds resilience.
So that's like what I always ask parents is, Is what you're asking of your child something that is survivable, but you just don't think that it's fair to have them be uncomfortable because that is a terrible message.
They should know that your adult self isn't like Oh, my God, it's the end of the world.
I'm going to tell them to give you the part in the play that you didn't get.
Yeah. Like that is a weird message or I'm going to fix the bad grade or I'm going to tell that to invite you to the birthday party.
Those are normal, shitty things that we have to go through in life.
And then the key with our parents is that there are people we can come to and cry. and say that felt horrible, but that they're not gonna be like, I can't have you feeling as horrible.
Let me fix it. So We have this whole need to fix the hard feelings and then kids don't experience that. those very challenges that make them resilient.
What about when a child wants to go do something dangerous?
You know, like they want to put themselves in danger.
And you know that. This is risky. Like, this is not okay.
Or like, this could be risky. It probably won't be, but it could be.
Because again... Anything can be risky.
Yeah. My brain can find the risk. Oh, me too.
I'm terrible at that. Now that I'm an adult, it's like everything feels like a death wish to me.
I'm like, I can't. What can't I do anymore?
But, you know... Most young people go through a phase where they want to do stuff that's dangerous.
Yeah. go drink with their friends when they're underage.
They wanna go to this party late at night.
They want to go drive around with their friends when they're not supposed to because they only have a permit, whatever it may be.
How do you create boundaries there that keep them safe?
But like let them explore a bit. But also let them explore a bit because it's like My parents were pretty chill about me doing whatever.
And as a result... I actually wasn't, I was the least crazy out of the group.
My parents were like, go and do whatever you want.
But tell us what you're doing and we'll tell you the risks.
What you do with that information is up to you.
You know, is that a good way to handle it?
Did they nail it or no? I think if it's that until a point, right?
Like... There is a certain point at which the risk is too high.
Yeah. And your job as a parent is to say like, you can't get into a car with a drunk driver.
There are certain things that are too risky because your life is in danger.
But there's lots of risky stuff that doesn't put your life in danger, that is just going to be a dumb idea.
And those things, it is great for parents to be like, here's the thing.
If that happens, here's the consequence and you get to make the choice of whether or not you're going to do it.
I think to the point of... Reasonable, that's great.
We all have a different level of what reasonable is.
But I think that, you know, If you don't give your child... the freedom to make mistakes and stuff, they're either going to lie to you or they're going to be really severely underdeveloped.
Yeah. And, you know... There's no good... There's no good outcome... if you don't fall on your face a bunch.
Yeah, I know. And that's just so painful to know is that you just have to sit there and witness it. you know offer a glass of water and a hug I mean, a glass of water seems very boring.
I know. Maybe a little lemonade. Yeah. Like maybe we put a little lemonade in there.
But it's the idea that you can't bubble wrap the world around Which is just hard and that's part of our development as adults.
Yeah. that our loved ones can handle difficult experiences knowing that they're they're going to come out the other side.
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Mentos gum. Yes to fresh. How do you apologize to your kids?
Being a parent means making mistakes as a parent.
And I really do think that it's about... you know, at least based on my experience, how you remedy the fuck up.
You know, that's like, at least when it comes to my relationship with my parents, if they've been able to apologize, in a way that I truly feel is sincere, then, you know.
You're back in. Then I'm back in. Sometimes.
I mean, sometimes it takes some time. But I'm curious...
What's the most effective way to apologize to your child?
And how do you know when... An apology is warranted.
You know, in the same way that talking about a partner who's able to repair, like you're setting the stage for your child to see that you make mistakes and that you can come back from them.
So those apologies really matter so much.
Because when you look at young kids who feel so guilty or like they just blew it. or even a teenager, whatever, or grownups. and you know the ones who weren't apologized to, Because they feel like the screw up is irreparable.
And like they hate themselves for it. But if you have a situation where you have to apologize to your child.
I think the most important thing to do is kind of, I mean, the biohack of like putting your hand on your heart and just taking a breath. and saying like, I screwed up, but I'm a good mom, you know, and I'm going to make repairs. it gives you like a little moment of self-compassion.
Yes. Because when you apologize, I don't want you – as the parent to make your child feel like you're just berating yourself over and over.
So you can be like, hey, I expect that sometimes I'm gonna mess up.
This was one of those times. Here's what I did. that I wish I hadn't done.
Let me know how I can make it right, you know, and in the future, here's what I'm going to do to do better.
It's a you know, it could be as big as that.
It could be as small as. Letting someone pick the movie and laughing together.
And you just kind of know. You just kind of got back.
Yeah. But I do think that the first part of the apology has to be with yourself.
So that your child recognizes that it's not. the end of the world to have to apologize.
Right. Yeah, that's very true. Like, I think maybe it can also be sort of damaging if... an apology is like an entire event.
Yeah. Like, because now you feel like it's an event and it's not like, you know, So maybe there is no such thing as like over apologizing.
I guess when I think of over apologizing, I think it's when... parents apologize for creating boundaries, right?
Totally. That's different because they didn't need to apologize.
Yeah, and they shouldn't. Right. Like, I think that is a really good point because it's like it's really hard to apologize for something. where you really blew it because you have to then tell yourself that what you've done.
It's like way easier to say, I'm really sorry you're upset right now because you can't go to the party. that's like a bullshit apology.
Yeah, totally. You know, but the ones where it's like, I just took your weak, vulnerable spot.
And I took advantage of it. And I criticized you for something. that I know you have deep shame about.
That is very hard to admit because it really makes you feel... shitty yeah I mean you look in the mirror and you're like who did this I did this but you know like Then we remember we're people and we're just going to keep being people.
Yep. Do you think if you... apologize along the way that you can create a child who carries no damage from you?
Or do you think that it is inevitable that your child will bring some damage with them throughout their life.
Because I swear my parents were fucking amazing like I really did have phenomenal parents but you know I...
I have some issues from that, for sure. We all do.
It's inevitable. Yeah, I don't think you can not... have that like I because I look at my situation and I'm like I don't know how they could have done any better.
They've apologized even. For everything, especially like, you know, now that I'm an adult, my parents have apologized for everything I've brought up, I've figured out. all the different things that they did and how that impacted me now.
And they were open and receptive? Yes. So open, so receptive, so like...
My mom apologizes on a weekly basis to me about various things.
She's like, I just remember this one thing I did when you were like 12 and I feel so bad.
It was so mean. And I'm like, hey. It's all good.
And I do forgive my parents for every little thing that they've ever done.
But I have noticed that certain things have impacted... the way that I am in friendships, the way that I am in romantic relationships.
And that, you know, the apology doesn't change that, right?
And so now... you know, it's taking a whole nother you know, I have to go back in and now address that and unlearn that in, you know, get to the bottom of that because now that's sort of become my own philosophy that now has nothing to do with them anymore because they've repaired what they've done.
The lingering effects... I have to handle now.
You know, it's your it is your burden because it's your the life choices that you're going to make.
Yeah. But so like, you know, no one gets out.
It would be boring if you just were like squeaky squeaky.
Perfect. It's true. Who needs that? But... it is interesting to be able to say like, what are you drawn to in romantic relationships?
And is that aligned with what you would like to be drawn to in romantic relationships?
And how do you respond? And yeah, Those things do come from early experiences.
I mean yeah. Like, when my parents got divorced...
It rattled things a little bit. Yeah. And then now I'm very anxiously attached because I feel like I can...
The way I internalize that was I'm being put on the back burner.
So then... Now I'm super anxiously attached because I'm like, I can just be. abandoned at any point.
So your place that you'll work on is believing somebody's there, even if they... go away for a weekend or don't want to have dinner or are grumpy about something but then does it also on the other side make you feel, and I will say you're not anxiously attached.
Mm-hmm. Because I feel like that just- Well, it puts you in a box.
It's true. It really, it sets you up to have all relationships like that.
But it does sound like your natural inclination might be to be worried that someone's leaving.
And so your challenge is to Either choose people who are really comfortable making sure you feel safe.
Because sometimes when you have that tendency, you are attracted to people who are very... I love an avoidant man.
Yeah, like what's sexier to somebody with...
It's terrible. And by the way, somebody who's super, super needy would probably... be so annoying for you.
Yeah, I hate that too. And you would become avoidant.
So it's more like how you are in relationship to someone else.
And so it's finding the fit of someone who doesn't bring out that part That is actually a really phenomenal point.
Because when I have been in situations that... were much more secure or even the other person was anxious as well.
It's been like, I actually feel like I have secure attachment.
It's only when I'm with somebody who's avoidant that then I am avoidant.
Or I am anxious. Right. It's like too... psyches bringing out each other's like worst parts.
And I think the trickiest part about that, which is a conversation for another day, is but it's not sexy to be safe so true And so you're 22.
Like, how are you going to convince your body? and your nervous system to be attracted to someone who is safe while at the same time that's who you want to partner with.
Those are two really opposing things. And so growing into, especially if you bend anxious in that way. growing into finding sexiness in safety is hard. hurdle I know that's like totally my that's my vibe right now I'm trying to I'm trying to love safety.
Of course. And it's really about like finding the person who brings out And who you bring out that sense of safety and finding the sexy and safety.
And that's just... I remember once someone said to me, that isn't sexy or love, it's anxiety.
Yeah. And I was so young at the time. And I was like, what?
Anyway, moving right along. And then... here I am decades later and I remember it because it's, it's hard not to confuse those things.
But yeah, when you can find two nervous systems that bring out a sense of ease and you don't think of it as boring and lame, you win.
Back to kids. By the way, that was a detour I needed right now.
More on that after. But many kids feel a pressure to become... what their parents envisioned them to be.
You should get this job. You should get married at this age.
You should do this, you should do that. What are your advice for parents on how to not do that?
And how to let go of those expectations.
And what are your advice... to kids when it comes to blocking out that noise and doing what you want to do.
I think for parents and people in general, The people that you love need to know you love them for who they are. not a single bit of their accomplishments, not how they look, not how they act, but who they are inside at their core.
And so if you catch yourself praising and saying, you know, deifying qualities that are about performance. catch yourself so that your kids know that they are loved for who they are and that it doesn't matter that they got 12 trophies. or that you aren't invested in whether or not they end up doing this job or this college, going to this college or going to that whatever, marrying that person.
And we as the parents have to be vigilant about catching ourselves in how we praise God. and what we pay attention to, not just in our kids but in other people.
Because you could be really meticulous about not praising your daughter for how beautiful she is. but then walk around telling everybody else how beautiful they are and looking at all of that stuff and the values get baked in.
So I think that is part of it is just what, What values do you want your children to feel you value? if that's a sentence, and just checking in with what you... perceive as important.
And one thing that you can always do with people is like do kind of a family mission statement where you kind of say in this household we value and you pick three things.
Yeah. And when your kids get to even age four, ask them what they think you value.
And if there is a misalignment, It's a good, it's just information.
Like if you're like, we value kindness, compassion and persistence.
But your kids are like, I think you value... hard work, performance, and success.
No judgment on either of those, but there's a misalignment.
So figuring out whether or not you or be honest with your kids.
Yeah. You know. It's almost worse if you pretend that you don't care about certain things, but you do.
Yeah. um and then for for young people resisting looking outward for your worth, which is impossible.
But it's just a practice. It's a practice every day. of recognizing and getting the courage up, starting with your parents, because they're the people that are not going anywhere, hopefully. of saying this is who I am and realizing you're still loved.
As a parent, what's the responsible way to enforce boundaries with the internet?
Because it's such a nightmare. I mean, my parents kind of let me have free reign.
Well, it served you. It ended up serving you.
You did well with it. I know. But that's the exception.
I know. And I know. And that's... But even with me, psychologically... as much as it literally built a career for me and, you know, I'm, obviously beyond grateful for that.
It also has given me I mean, there's so much damage that it's also caused.
What kind of damage do you feel like it's caused?
Well, I mean, for sure, severe injuries. body image issues throughout my whole life.
I mean, since I was like 10. Okay. I think it makes my anxiety a lot worse.
I'm already an anxious person. It definitely exacerbates depression for me, which I also already have.
Or maybe I... Or maybe... those are byproducts.
It could be because I've been on the internet since I was so young.
Um, I've struggled more recently with like... kind of OCD, like perfectionism in a way that's not normal.
It's like, okay, we need to not... This is like too much, you know, all from the internet.
Or at least made worse by the internet. I think, yeah, it definitely amplifies all of our natural... struggles.
And for girls, Of course it's going to be body image, depression, anxiety.
That's perfectionism. Like you named every...
Yeah. And it's also... We're like in a post-truth world now.
Like, I don't even know what's happening right now online.
I know. And I also know what it feels like.
I will sit for... certainly recently for so long.
I don't know how time has gone by and I'm just watching things.
And my I can feel my entire body is just like basically shaking and it's.
Me too. I know. And I think about like young nervous systems.
So basically, I think because it's the kind of addictive, tricky mechanism.
We have to create certain boundaries. Like, I...
Do not allow electronics past 10 in bedrooms, no matter what.
And that's not an argument we ever have because this is me protecting myself you from what is a reasonable want, which is to just be able to be up all night scrolling. with your friends, doing whatever.
I can't imagine how you could have the self-control with a teenage brain.
Like, it's all gas, no brakes. Like, I'm there as a support system for that.
Yep. But unless we're on vacation. Yeah.
But then... I think it depends on the individual.
I think you have to look and see how is your particular teenager managing social media?
What does their algorithm look like? If their algorithm is like a bunch of puppies and bunnies doing funny things, I'm not worried about it.
Yeah. So I think you can tell by just checking in. you're paying the bills for the most part so That can be an agreement.
It's not a sneaky thing. It's like, look, I have to know your passwords.
I'm not going to just spy. Like... I'm allowed to, but I'm not doing that for fun.
I'm going to check in every once in a while as a responsible parent.
If things are looking like there's a problem, we'll figure out a solution.
Yeah. If things are looking fine But mealtime and sleep time to me are sacred from screens.
I think that's reasonable because I also think you can't – I mean, again, it's like when the rules are too strict –
It's just the kids end up rebelling. And I think with the phone, it's like... they're going to feel the effects of being on it too much.
Obviously, taking the phone away altogether, not giving your kid a phone, you can't do that. that it's almost like it really socially at this point it's it's They would have no social life.
It's terrible. So it's like you can't not give them, you know, the phone at all, but also...
They will... They will... 100% surely have a negative psychological... effect.
There will be a negative effect if they are overdoing it.
And it's like they will feel that. I think if you can warn them of that, I guess that's the best you can do.
Yeah, like we know there's certain things that are just non-negotiable and then the rest is yet checking in with how is this feeling for you?
And usually if you're pointing it out, but you're not accusatory, they can come up with their own realization.
Yeah. But they just might need help. Like, I feel...
Like a lot of teenagers find relief in just being forced to... have space from all of that totally to wrap this up What is your most unexpected... piece of advice for parents like a piece of advice that they'd be like oh really You know, like what what do you think is sort of a curveball if you can think of one?
I think a curveball is... This is so specific and random. but not arguing with your kids to convince them out of their feelings.
Like if they feel ugly, telling them why they're beautiful.
Or if they feel scared, telling them why they shouldn't be scared.
I think that that is a very natural thing to want to do, but not what... is recommended.
Wow. That is like, see, that is exactly what Was that the kind of curveball?
Yes, because I, you know, what I think is being brought to my attention for the first time in this conversation is... how it's nobody else's place To get in the way of what someone's feeling.
Yes. And I've recently been... handling my emotions differently personally, just on a personal level, where...
I'm just letting myself feel things fully feel so sad, so upset, so blah, blah, blah and I just sit in it And I'm like, And I'm not trying to change it.
And what's been so interesting about it is... when I just let myself sit in it, when I come out the other side, I feel truly resolved.
Right. And, and, You know, my entire life before that, it was like every time I'd feel uncomfortable, I'd just try to find a way to...
Feel comfortable again. To feel comfortable again.
Yeah. So, you know, and now I'm like, no, I'm just going to sit in it and I'm just going to see what... happens knowing that at some point it will end.
That's the key. It always does. does. It always does.
But it's like, you've got to believe that.
How will you believe it until you go through it?
But that's a journey that somebody has to go on as an individual.
And so when somebody comes in and sort of It's almost unfair in some ways to come in and say, no.
You don't feel that way. You don't feel that way.
You should be feeling this way. And here's why.
Because, you know. you're such a great student and like, you know, everything's going so well for you.
It's like, don't, take away my ability to just be sad right now and just whatever.
And it's, I think that that's so huge with parenting, but also across the board in life. you know even with how you parent yourself as an adult you know it's like You have to learn to sit with every emotion and figure out how you...
Manage it. But I think when it comes to parenting, it's like –
What do you say when your child is upset instead of saying like, Oh, don't feel this way.
Do you validate without changing if that's what it is?
Okay. That makes sense. Like, you mirror.
Almost say back to them what it sounds like.
Let me get this straight. It sounds like you feel really... unloved or ugly or scared or whatever.
Is there any way I can be helpful is a totally reasonable question, but first you have to acknowledge it and let them know.
Otherwise, the other risk is that they then have to either convince you so it gets bigger or Like, no, here are the all it's like, try to tell somebody who's afraid of flying. all the reasonable statistics about why they shouldn't be afraid of flying.
Yeah. A person afraid of flying is going to be like, I'll one-up you on each one of those things with, you know... whatever, you can't argue with anxiety.
Yes. An anxious person is going to outwin that argument.
A kid feeling a feeling is going to have to lie about their feeling. or feel like they can't trust their own feelings unless you validate them and let them have them.
And I just think it's important for them to know you can handle it.
And it's hard, it's really hard. I mess this up all the time.
But when you can sit there and not feel... total just devastation of your child's experience.
Yeah. you're showing them that you can handle it.
And who wants to, you know, even if you think about friends, like Who do you want to talk to about your troubles or your sadness?
Is it the one who's like trying to convince you out of it?
Or is it the one who's just like, let this shit out.
You are so valid. And then eventually let's like, take off our sweatpants and get outside and, like, do something that feels good.
But first... I'm gonna let you indulge in this feeling.
I'm not gonna make you feel ashamed of it.
Let's just do it. Let's just be there. Those are the people that you're calling on.
Yeah. because they can handle it absolutely true Amen.
Thank you for coming on. Oh my God. Thank you for having me.
This was so phenomenal. You're so wonderful.
Like what a thoughtful, cool, awesome. I want to interview you. you should come on my podcast.
Yes. I've never had a person who's not, that will be like so.
I would love that. Because I could ask you so many questions.
I would adore that. Okay, I can't wait. The 90s are so back, which is why this summer, Instacart is bringing back everything you loved about them.
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