So what we got here is one of those rad action movie scenes where the dastardly villain reveals his coolest and deadliest weapon.
This is my moon laser.
This is my red double-bladed lightsaber.
This is my dolphin that I unwittingly trained to kill the president of the United States.
That sort of thing.
So here we got a military-grade nuclear bomb-type suitcase.
With the dastardly villain's name stenciled on it.
And the movie score swells ominously.
And the dastardly villain's two henchmen open the suitcase.
And a super ominous keyboard goes bong, bong, bong.
And you even get an Ennio Morricone spaghetti western riff.
And there it is.
The coolest and deadliest weapon the world has ever known.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I'll tell you what that is, Jenny Lewis and Fred Savage.
It's the fucking power glove.
Power glove.
Dig the sexy film noir saxophone that kicks in as the dastardly villain flexes his power glove.
It is 1989 and I'm watching a real movie called The Wizard in the theater because there ain't nothing else to do in 1989.
The titular wizard is a troubled nine-year-old video game prodigy who busts out of a mental institution with the help of his teenaged half-brother, played by Fred Savage.
And at a bus stop, they meet a spunky young lady slash love interest, played by Jenny Lewis.
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Eventually, The Wizard wins $50,000 in a video game tournament at Universal Studios Hollywood.
Whatever, man.
Noted movie critic Roger Ebert, gave The Wizard one star and described it as, quote a nasty pileup down at the screenplay factory.
End quote.
Also, Roger Ebert angrily points out that during the climactic video game tournament, the announcer says that the players have reached the third level of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles NES game.
But Roger observes in his review that they're clearly still playing the first level.
Of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles NES game.
Roger Ebert knows ball.
All right?
Get that weak shit out of here.
Whatever, man.
This movie's legacy is Power Glove Kid.
The rudest, meanest, toughest, most punchable movie villain of 1989.
In a remarkably crowded field.
Jack Nicholson playing the Joker in Tim Burton's Batman in 1989.
Yeah, Jack Nicholson's Joker had some wonderful toys, but he ain't got no power glove.
And now we watch as Power Glove Kid menacingly blows through the first level of the game Rad Racer for NES.
And Jenny Lewis is entranced.
And Fred Savage is tremendously concerned that Jenny Lewis is entranced.
Dig the lethal weapon.
Sexy-ass Clapton-esque electric guitar that kicks in as the Power Glove Kid plays Rad Racer.
Let's get a few things straight.
Number one, the Power Glove is trash.
The Power Glove is garbanzo.
You can't control it.
You ain't playing jack shit. with a Power Glove.
You try to play Rad Racer with a Power Glove and your red Ferrari's tires will never touch the road.
This shit was unusable.
The Power Glove sold 13 million units worldwide at like a hundred bucks a piece and all 13 million people who bought a power glove got fed up and threw it out a window and into a tree.
The teenage mutant ninja turtles nes game sucks also.
That game was ludicrously offensively hard.
It was a russian psyop.
Even Roger Ebert couldn't make it to level three of that shit.
This doesn't matter.
What matters is Jenny Lewis's response to Power Glove Kid.
The dazed, intimidated, wary, captivated look in her eyes.
And the dazed, intimidated, wary, captivated tremor in her voice as she says, geez.
Geez.
I love the Power Glove.
It's so bad.
Yeah, well, just keep your Power Gloves off her, pal, huh?
I love the Power Glove.
It's so bad.
Get a load of the riz on this kid.
People who were alive in 1989 shouldn't say riz.
But nonetheless, Fred Savage is right to be concerned.
Power Glove Kid is Mr. Steal Yo Girl Incarnate.
I was curious, so I looked up the actor, the kid who played Power Glove Kid.
Don't do that.
I regret doing that.
I do too much research for this show.
I've been thinking this.
Not all knowledge is power.
Power Glove Kid is a world historically dastardly villain.
He's a smug, creepy bully with suspiciously voluminous hair.
He's only in this movie for product placement.
And just to reiterate, his product sucks.
He's a snake oil salesman with snake oil in his hair.
He's bad news.
Baby, he's bad news.
He's just bad news, bad news, bad news.
And yet, and yet, and yet.
And yet one cannot deny the terrible malevolent allure of Power Glove Kid.
He is a two-bit bad boy for an eight-bit age.
And his malevolence and his allure.
They only grow as the years pass and the graphics of his video games improve.
Think of it like this.
Here's a thought experiment for you.
Every 90s and 2000s pop punk song, Every classic lovelorn manipulative badgering, low-key to high-key, problematic emo song.
I want you to imagine that every one of those songs is either sung by Power Glove Kid or sung to Power Glove Kid.
He is either the pursuer or the pursued.
And his swagger and his dastardly talent for shameless debasing, emotional manipulation knows no bounds.
He's controlling your emotions, like he's wearing some kind of Taking Back Sunday.
The 2002 hit Your Soul Last Summer by Amity New York.
Emo Legends Taking Back Sunday.
This song is spiritually sung by Power Glove Kid.
You could slit my throat and with my one last gasping breath, I'd apologize for bleeding on your shirt.
That's just like something Power Glove Kid would say.
That's so bad.
It's a trap.
He's gaslighting you.
He's bad news, bad news, bad news.
Meanwhile, skater boy... by Avril Lavigne, a substantially bigger hit from 2002.
The whole skateboarding thing is a red herring.
On Sk8er Boi, Avril is totally singing about Power Glove Kid and Avril is totally dissing her romantic rival, the ditzy girl who failed to grasp the romantic potential of Power Glove Kid.
He had a power glove, but too bad now we're in love.
Try it.
Try it with any song from any era, really.
Video games, the song by Lana Del Rey.
Obviously, canonically, Lana Del Rey is singing.
Open up a beer when you say get over here and play a video game.
Obviously that's about him.
The justifiable terror in Fred Savage's eyes as he watches Jenny Lewis watch Power Glove Kid.
Never mind how the movie ends.
Never mind any background information about any of these actors.
A biblically terrible, decades-long toxic situationship is born right here in this one-star movie, when Power Glove Kid grabs Jenny Lewis's arm with his non-Power Glove hand and he drops his best, his oiliest, his most nefarious, his most manipulative pickup line.
By the way, I'm headed to the championships, too.
And by the way, I'm entered in the championships too.
And Jenny tries to shake off Power Glove Kid and stare him down with disinterest, with contempt.
But there is no disguising what she's really thinking.
And what she's thinking is, I can fix him.
And I can do the truth.
I can do the Robocop.
I can do the Freddie.
I cannot do the Smyrna.
It is 1998 and Jenny Lewis is going to be a rock star now.
She's in her early 20s.
She's a veteran and by now mostly retired child actor.
Perhaps you also caught her on TV shows and movies, ranging from Troop Beverly Hills to The Golden Girls to Roseanne.
But Jenny is focused now on her Los Angeles-based, sweetly vicious indie pop band, Rilo Kylie.
This song is called The Frugue.
The blank, deadpan look on Jenny's face in this video and the softness, the smallness, the delicacy of her voice.
To some extent, these are shrewd actorly tricks.
These are gentle manipulations.
These are weapons.
Do not let this band's sweetness blind you to this band's entrancing viciousness.
Also, she really can do all those dances.
Do not underestimate this person.
She's entered in the championships, too.
And I can do the fruit.
I can do the Robocop.
I can do the Freddie.
I cannot do this.
Ah, yes.
Her bandmates.
I love it when the boys and Rilo Kylie pipe up at the end there.
She cannot do the smurf.
Rilo Kylie consist of Jenny Lewis on vocals and guitar etc.
Blake Sennett on lead guitar and vocals, etc.
Pierre Derrida on bass and Jason Bosel on drums.
Rilo Kylie are, emphatically, if tumultuously, a band.
And from the onset.
On the band's 1999 debut EP, an EP called either Rilo Kylie or The Initial Friend.
From the onset, Jenny Lewis and Blake Sennett are both writing and both singing.
And this band's sweetness and viciousness only intensify when their voices intertwine.
As they do here on the line, you're the most exhausting girl I ever knew.
This song is called Papillon.
That's French.
Blake Sennett is also a veteran child actor, most famously in the Nickelodeon summer camp sitcom Salute Your Shorts.
Blake Sennett's voice is also deceptively soft. and delicate.
I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around the way this song, Papillon, ends.
Presented without comment.
I love mess.
There's your comment.
That's a little uncouth, Blake.
There is a perpetual ill-advised horny volatility to Riley O'Kiley.
This band will not hesitate to air their grievances and or invade your privacy.
The New Zealand pop star Lorde, Royals and so forth.
Lorde is like two years old in 1998, which I shouldn't have looked up.
Too much research, but later.
When she grows up, Lord will sing, bet you rue the day you kissed a writer in the dark.
You hop in bed with a rock star and the rock star might transcribe your bed dialogue into a rock and roll song.
And look out if the writer you kissed in the dark is also in your band writing songs for your band that are about kissing you in the dark.
Somewhere early in the Rilo-Kiley timeline, Jenny Lewis and Blake Sennett become a real-life romantic couple.
Somewhere later in the Rilo-Kiley timeline, Jenny Lewis and Blake Sennett cease to be a real-life romantic couple.
And despite this breakup, the band rumbles on tumultuously.
The exact details and the exact timeline of their real life romance are obviously none of our business, but also obviously none of our business is not an operative concept in rock and roll.
How many blows to the belly will this thing take that we refer to as our true love?
We both know it's dead and it's been dying for some time.
We refuse to let it go.
This song is called Bulletproof.
Are Jenny and Blake singing sweetly about their own dead true love?
That's none of our business.
And also, yeah, sure.
They might be.
Talking to the New York Times in 2025 about her relationship with Blake and the death and resurrection of Rilo Kiley.
Jenny Lewis says, quote I think the end was nigh the moment we first hooked up.
We never really fixed the issues that we had as a couple.
I remember a fight that we had after we had first broken up where I threw And then we were hanging out with other people, which got very messy on the road.
End quote.
I wonder what Pink Floyd CD she threw out the window.
I hope it wasn't Pulse, the Pink Floyd two-CD live album with a blinking red light.
That costs like 35 bucks.
I would be super pissed if my bandmate slash ex-girlfriend said, threw my Pulse CD out the window.
That song Bulletproof, appears on the first full-length Rilo Kiley album, which comes out in 2001 and is called Takeoffs and Landings.
The album cover features a technical drawing of a row of airplane seats.
And yeah, from the album title on down, this couldn't look more like an early 2000s indie rock album, if it tried.
Mundane instruction manual.
Type phrases and images freighted with mysterious palpable, outsized emotion.
If you know, you know.
The first great Ryle O'Kiley song is called Pictures of Success.
Emphatically, if tumultuously, Rilo Kiley are a band.
The hypnotic rolling bass line here.
The pristine pinging guitar harmonics.
The deceptive softness and delicacy of Jenny Lewis's voice as she sings.
I'm a modern girl but I fold in half so easily.
Everything is in its right place.
This song, Pictures of Success, is alarmingly beautiful in a way that emphasizes both the beauty and the alarm.
What is missing here, if anything's missing, is a sense of mess.
But the mess ain't missing for long.
And sometimes when you're on, you're really fucking on.
And your friends, they see.
Nobody swears quite like Jenny Lewis.
Every F-bomb drops like an atom bomb.
The second Rilo Kiley album comes out in 2002 and is called The Execution of All Things.
This song is called A Better Son Slash Daughter.
It sounds like a panic attack led by a marching band.
This is the best Rilo Kiley song. by several orders of magnitude.
And if you think it's the best song by anybody released this century so far, that's fine with me, though I hope you're doing okay.
You okay?
You all right?
The self-harmony there.
The multitude of Jennys kicking in on, you'll fight it, you'll make it through.
Holy shit.
This is possibly the best song by anybody released this century so far.
I feel fine.
Thanks for asking a better son.
Slash daughter has national anthem energy.
This song is zeitgeist defining, generation defining.
If you were a young person of a certain emotional disposition in 2002, the lyrics to this song were auto loaded into your aol instant messenger away message.
I personally always found Rilo Kiley to be slightly extremely intimidating.
They're very Los Angeles.
They're very former child actor.
They're very ultra cool in a way that discouraged me personally from being bold enough to find them relatable.
There appears to be a deep, traumatic personal core to this song, which starts with Jenny Lewis arguing with her mother on the phone.
They seem to have a super gnarly and very LA sounding mother daughter relationship that Jenny will explore in greater detail later on her first solo album.
But in my early 20s, this song broke some kind of coolness containment for me.
A Better Son, Slash Daughter pulls off that wonderful magic trick where the lyrics are so personal and specific and painful that they achieve this ecstatic universality.
This is a frantic, internal freak-out pep talk on a galactic scale.
And for once, even the meekest listeners among us might feel bold enough to sing along.
You'll be a real good listener.
You'll be honest.
You'll be brave.
You'll be handsome.
And you'll be beautiful.
You'll be happy.
The guitar solo rips, too.
Yes, despite the chaos, despite the cacophony of this song, A Better Son Slash Daughter, everything is in its right place here as well.
This is immaculately structured, full band mess.
Jenny Lewis, though, she can really swear now, can't she?
That song's called Spectacular Views and it's the slight loss of vocal control there, the way all the delicacy in her voice shatters on the words.
It's so fucking beautiful.
That is also beautifully alarming.
This record, The Execution of All Things, comes out on Saddle Creek Records, based in Omaha Nebraska, the domain of Conor Oberst aka.
Bright Eyes, a.k.a. the vanguard of early 2000s oversharing indie rock.
But Rilo Kiley are also audibly sharpening and brightening and angling towards some sort of pure pop mainstream adjacent breakthrough.
And I suppose this is it.
The key word here is Khmer.
Here we have Rilo Kiley on Late Night with Conan O'Brien in 2004 playing their modest breakthrough hit Portions for Foxes.
Man, Jennie sure does scream the word Khmer, doesn't she?
The whole point of building a rock star persona around your masterful sense of control and composure is that it's extra shocking and thrilling when you lose your composure right.
Meanwhile, Blake Sennett's front and center here, making legit awesome guitar god faces.
And that clearly is the hugest shiniest, catchiest late-night talk-showist Rilo Kiley chorus of them all.
That song, Portions for Foxes, appears on Rilo Kiley's 2004 album, More Adventurous.
This band is steadily growing in public profile and esteem.
Also, alas, this band's going to make one more album and break up and not reunite until 2025.
The final Rilo Kiley studio album comes out in 2007 and is called Under the Blacklight.
This song's called Breaking Up.
Don't read too much into it.
It's hard not to read into that a little bit, though, yes?
By 2007, Jenny Lewis and Blake Sennett have both established solo careers.
Blake has already put out two albums, with his West Coast country-ish band, The Elected.
And in 2006, Jenny Lewis and the Watson twins put out a phenomenal record called Rabbit Fur Coat, which is also pretty country-ish, come to think of it.
Rabbit Fur Coat gets way more attention.
Jenny Lewis gets way more attention.
There's no way around this.
Whether your band is tumultuous or not, the primary lead singer gets most of the attention.
To the end, Blake Sennett is singing lead on a song or two on every Rilo Kylie album.
And unfortunately, he's peaking as a songwriter just as the band is ending.
My favorite song on Under the Black Light is called Dream World.
It sounds like Fleetwood Mac.
That is alarmingly beautiful guitar tone, dude.
I am not joking.
I wouldn't joke. about guitar tone.
I am moderately impressed with myself that I waited this long to say the words.
It sounds like Fleetwood Mac.
LA pop grandeur, thorny intraband dynamics, at least one failed romance, a dead true love, charted song by song from both perspectives.
Rilo and Kylie have distinct, unavoidable Fleetwood Mac energy.
This is Stevie Nicks versus Lindsey Buckingham all over again.
Well, no, not chart-wise.
No, Rilo Kylie do not have an album one-tenth as huge as Fleetwood Mac's Rumors.
No, nobody does, really.
There is no recreating 1977 Fleetwood Mac in any sense.
But that song, Dreamworld, is pure 80s Fleetwood Mac to me.
Tango in the night era.
Fleetwood Mac, 1987.
Humid, pristine, island vacation dream pop with disquieting personal undertones.
Tango in the Night is Fleetwood Mac's best album.
I might actually believe that.
This song's called Big Love.
Lindsey Buckingham's probably singing about someone else by now.
But maybe he's not, though.
You see what I mean?
That is also alarmingly beautiful guitar tone.
I used to listen to Tango in the Night on cassette on repeat in 1987 while I played The Legend of Zelda the original Zelda for the NES with a gold cartridge.
I hear Tango in the Night now and it sends me right back to Death Mountain.
I beat that game.
I beat Ganon, and nobody paid me $50,000.
Big Love is also too daunting a point of comparison.
Forget comparing anybody to 1977 or 1987 Fleetwood Mac.
You know what every great 2000s indie pop band is chasing, though?
1997 Fleetwood Mac.
Silver Springs from the 1997 Fleetwood Mac live album and concert movie The Dance.
They left this song off of rumors.
This ridiculously incredible song qualifies as a deep cut.
That's the magnitude of rock band we're dealing with here.
Any rock band from anywhere from any era With any sort of public real-life intraband romance component.
Any rock band of sweetly vicious ex-lovers is chasing the glory and the absolute terror of this moment during Silver Springs, when Stevie Nicks turns to Lindsey Buckingham on stage and death stares him and visibly tries to kill him with a song written by her about him on which he is harmonizing and playing guitar.
This is Stevie's coolest and deadliest weapon.
The way she just wails, you'll never get away at her poor, doomed bandmate, who will indeed never get away, even if he gets kicked out of the band, which eventually happens.
And, if we're honest, this is not a reachable peak for a 21st century rock band either, in terms of combining arena rock force with titanic romantic intrigue.
Fleetwood Mac are forever the ultimate in terms of stuff.
That's none of our business, being very much all of our business.
Plus, I hear something else and I hear someone else in Rilo Kiley occasion in Jenny Lewis's voice.
One of my favorite Rilo Kiley songs is from 2004, from the more adventurous album.
It's called does he love you?
It is the tale of infidelity, of betrayal, of heated romantic rivalry with a shocking reveal that deserves its own spoiler alert.
And this song starts very politely, with softness, with smallness, with delicacy and.
But this song peaks with Jenny Lewis very strategically totally losing her composure.
And I hear something and someone else here.
It's the unrestrained wind machine howl in Jenny Lewis's voice.
The expertly controlled total lack of control.
The glorious transubstantiation of none of our business into all of our business.
I hear a classic rock star archetype here.
A hallowed rock and roll lineage.
The superstar singer who is emphatically tumultuously part of a messy chaotic, exasperating and absolutely necessary band.
And she will never give up the spotlight, but she doesn't want to give up the band either.
And your band can break up and reunite, or you can lose members and find them again and lose them again, and you can threaten to go solo, and maybe you do.
But maybe you come back later and you can write beautifully vicious songs about your bandmates, who you might be semi-secretly dating, and then sing those songs, whether those particular bandmates are on stage with you or not.
But you will always just be writers kissing other writers in the dark and you will never get away.
Never get away, never get away.
My name is Rob Harvilla.
This is the 36th episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon the 2000s.
And this week we are discussing Misery Business by Paramore from their 2007 album Riot.
Riot!
Paramore are a tumultuous, electrifying, era-defining pop-punk band from Franklin, Tennessee.
Rilo Kylie, at their rowdiest, remind me of Paramore.
Paramore, at their most delicate, remind me of Rilo Kylie.
Two of the highest compliments I can offer any band.
It didn't take quite as long as usual to hit the ad break, but let's not get cocky about it.
Delightful.
If you're like me and you've wondered if Jenny Lewis of Rilo Kiley and Hayley Williams of Paramore ever appeared on stage together well, for once I've got great news.
All trees bow their heads, no matter how cruel.
Some knowledge is power.
Here we've got Jenny and Haley on stage in February 2025 at the Hollywood Palladium at a charity event called Give a Fuck LA to benefit victims of the January 2025 LA wildfires.
They are singing a Rilo Kiley song called Let Me Back In.
When Los Angeles rock bands aren't singing about their personal messy love affairs, they're usually singing about Los Angeles itself.
Pierre Derrida of Rilo Kylie is on stage too, along with Katie Gavin of the great LA pop band Moona.
Katie's on violin.
Though of course the main event here is finally getting to hear Jenny's and Haley's voices sweetly intertwine.
L.A.
And of course, we get some rando in the crowd.
It is just like a man to go, woo, just as Jenny and Hayley really start getting after it.
Shut up.
This is for charity.
How about you donate your respectful silence?
Also, Jenny and Hayley do a little tap dancing.
That's nice.
You can go all you want during the tap dancing part, dude.
That's fine.
So Haley Williams is born in Meridian, Mississippi in 1988.
Her parents split up when she is very young.
In an interview with Vulture in 2020, Haley says quote My parents' divorce was the pivotal moment of my life.
I keep discovering ways in which it asks me how to work on myself.
Haley's mom starts a new relationship with a man.
Haley will later describe in an interview with The Guardian in 2020, as quote a nightmare of a stepfather.
End quote.
I am dissatisfied with the sound of my own voice in conveying any of this backstory to you.
I am inclined to let Haley take it from here.
Life began in seventh grade.
In 2020, Hayley Williams put out a solo album called Flowers for Vases slash Descansos.
This song is called Inordinary.
I was hung up on this song for a very long time.
It is the absolute funereal quiet of this song, the stillness, the delicacy, the terrible gravity.
All of that.
Yes.
If you've ever seen Paramore, the tumultuous electrifying, era-defining pop punk band, in concert, Hailey is bouncing around.
She's dancing like literally everyone in the arena is watching.
She's headbanging.
She's rolling around.
She's bellowing.
She's exultant even during her angriest songs.
So to hear Hailey's voice barely registering above a whisper here...
A generally loud singer getting super quiet is just as shocking as a generally quiet singer getting super loud.
This is Jenny Lewis screaming come here in reverse.
And it's four words here on this song, Inordinary, that stop me cold every time.
The four words are, she said don't worry.
She said, don't worry.
And it's beyond the fact that Haley's voice gets just a little louder there that she slides up into her head voice on Don't Worry that, there's a slight wounded, bulletproof hitch in her voice on just the word worry.
It's that when Hayley Williams sings those four words, she sounds simultaneously like a mother trying to soothe a worried child and like a worried child trying to believe her mother.
Paramore is a band of broad, rapturous pop-punk strokes.
Bombast, chaos, volume, exploding color, joy, fury, mess.
But it's important to understand from the beginning that Paramore's lead singer can sing just four words that quietly, with that much raw, heart-stopping power.
Teenage Haley Williams and her mom moved to Franklin, Tennessee, 20 miles south of Nashville.
In 2025 on the Ringer podcast Good Hang with Amy Poehler.
Haley says she first learned about the power of her own voice as a teenager, while singing in church singing boring hymns.
Haley realized that singing soothed her anxiety, quieted her stomach, ache slowed her down, grounded her.
Paramore, are never quite a Christian rock band technically, but they are never entirely not a Christian rock band spiritually.
All right, let's start a band full of teenagers.
In Franklin, Tennessee Haley, meets fellow homeschooled musical prodigies Josh Farrow and his younger brother, Zach Farrow.
Haley briefly plays in a funk cover band called The Factory, which includes a bassist named Jeremy Davis, and he joins this new band of teenagers as well.
A little farther down the line, they add a guitarist named Jason Bynum.
A fellow teenage prodigy named Taylor York is hanging around a lot and co-writing songs a little bit, but he won't join up officially until 2007, so never mind him for now.
This is Paramore, for now.
Hayley Williams on vocals, Josh Farrow on guitar, Zach Farrow on drums, Jeremy Davis on bass, Jason Bynum on rhythm guitar.
Hayley and Josh will write most of the songs.
That's simple enough.
Paramore signed to Atlantic Records.
That's nice.
And the first Paramore album starts with an angry song about how their bassist has left the band already.
I love mess.
Yes, the first thing you need to understand about Paramore is that the first line of the first song on the first Paramore album is about internal strife within Paramore.
The band's debut album is called All We Know is Falling.
This song is called All We Know.
And yes, the line, we tried so hard to understand, but we can't.
I love the way she holds that last word.
She holds, we can't, for that long.
This line is addressing former Paramore bassist Jeremy Davis, who in fact had quit the band just days after arriving in Orlando to record the band's debut album. which raises the question, what would the first Paramore album have been about, primarily, if their bass player hadn't left immediately before they started making it?
By the way, Jeremy will rejoin the band after this album is out and he will play bass in Paramore until 2015.
Here's the All We Know Is Falling album cover.
By the way, it's an empty couch because their bass player isn't sitting on it.
Mundane, color-saturated images freighted with mysterious, palpable, outsized emotion.
This couldn't look more like a mid-2000s pop-punk album cover if it tried.
And it's really trying.
Meanwhile, check out the video for all we know.
Check out how offensively young these people are.
I personally have never been this young in my entire life.
Teenagers.
As William Shakespeare wrote, teenagers scare the living shit out of me.
Sorry, that was my chemical romance.
Sorry, as Emily Bronte wrote, we're teenagers, we don't know anything.
Sorry, that was Hayley Williams' solo on the soundtrack to the movie Jennifer's Body.
Later.
Sorry.
Paramore are teenagers.
They're kids.
The All We Know video is a basic live performance deal plus backstage footage of the band goofing around right.
Smiling and pointing at the camera and hugging and hauling amps around and gazing wistfully out the window of their touring van as they conquer America.
Such is the power of the myth of rock and roll that this agonized grouchy Paramore song about their bassist leaving can still mythologize the act of being in a rock and roll band.
This rock video makes being in a rock band look cool and fun and easy.
This album, All We Know Is Falling, comes out on Fueled by Ramen Records, the cool punk rock subsidiary of Atlantic Records.
All right, another quick thing.
Only Hayley Williams is signed to Atlantic Records.
Only Hayley Williams is signed to Paramore's record label.
They signed her as a solo artist. back in 2003, because they wanted her to be a pop-punkish solo superstar, just like Avril Lavigne, just like Since You've Been Gone-era Kelly Clarkson, just like Ashley Simpson, just like solo Gwen Stefani.
But Hailey doesn't want to be a solo star.
She wants a band.
Talking to the podcast Behind the Brand in 2017, Hailey says, quote I would see movies like The Temptations or even Spice World, and I just thought they're all having fun with their friends making music and it's their thing.
It's their job.
And I wanted that.
I wanted that us against the world kind of thing.
As bands go.
The Temptations and the Spice Girls are not exactly the most conventional and stable band models available.
But let Hayley cook.
So Paramore are a band because Hayley Williams wants them to be a band.
Paramore are emphatically and tumultuously and defiantly a band.
Paramore are also secretly not technically a band contractually, and the other guys in the band will not be psyched to learn this later, but mostly they'll get over it, unless they don't.
Hey, this song is called Pressure.
Pressure is the first minor Paramore hit and the first great Paramore song.
Dig the huge, chunky, anthemic guitar chords.
Dig the wheedledy-deedledy heavy metal guitar riff.
Dig the lyrics about being better off without you that are probably still addressed today to their old bass player, who will be back soon and then leave again eventually.
Plus, dig the new temporary bass player rolling off the guitar player's back in the video while the sprinklers overhead drench everybody.
Being in a band looks awesome and fun and easy.
And writing gargantuan arena-sized pop punk songs looks super easy, even if you're writing them by accident.
Talking to Vulture in 2020.
Hayley Williams says quote the guys and I didn't listen to pop punk before writing Pressure.
We listened to heavier stuff, like deftones.
We wanted to be darker.
Suddenly, we wrote Pressure, and that was it.
We were going to write emo bops.
Sick.
End quote.
She means the warped tour.
And here we have Paramore on stage at the Warped Tour in 2005 doing a song up their first record called Here We Go Again.
Hayley Williams can wring the pathos out of just a few notes, just a few words.
Words like we can't and you ran.
Or, like right now, she can expertly and melodically cram a whole bunch of angst-ridden words into 15 seconds.
Words like regret and take it back and forget the things we swore we meant.
Hayley Williams is 16 years old. in summer 2005.
And drummer Zac Farrow is even younger.
As both a band and as individual people Paramore, sound a great deal more remorseful and jaded and wistful than a band of literal teenagers ought to sound.
Or, All teenagers sound this jaded and regretful everywhere.
Always.
It's one of those two.
Anyways, here we have Paramore on stage at the Warped Tour in 2005.
The Warped Tour, if you are unfamiliar, being the legendary multi-stage maximum chaos traveling summer punk rock festival that launched in 1995 and got steadily huger and more chaotic as pop, punk and emo got steadily huger and more chaotic.
Specifically here we've got Paramore on the She-Ra Girl stage, which is indeed an all-girl band warp tour stage named for She-Ra Girl, the Southern California punk band.
The year before 2004, She-Ra Girl got themselves a cheap RV and painted it pink and they crashed the warps tour.
And so here in 2005, the warp tour made the Shira girl stage official, which is great, even if it does require Hayley Williams to perform literally below a giant sign that basically reads girl stage.
I feel like you can hear how hard 16 year old Hayley is headbanging right here.
Even She is headbanging extremely hard in that video.
In that 2020 Vulture interview, Haley describes the Warped Tour as brutally misogynistic.
She talks about being pissed initially that Paramore were invited to play on a girl stage at the Warped Tour.
She says, quote, We had to prove ourselves very hard.
I would spit farther, yell louder and thrash my neck wilder than anyone.
The next summer, we moved up to a slightly bigger stage.
That was the year of the fucking condoms.
End quote.
She means that Trojan condoms was a 2006 Warped Tour sponsor and people in the crowd threw condoms at her on stage and at least one got stuck to her chest.
She talks about the awful and gross shit boys and men would say to her as a now 17-year-old girl.
She's talked specifically in other interviews, including a New York Times podcast interview in 2025 about gross stuff, no-effects.
Frontman Fat Mike said about her on stage at the Warped Tour when she was underage
There's another great solo Hayley Williams song from 2025 called Good Old Days, with a chorus that goes who knew the hard times were the good old days?
I'm pretty sure she's talking about other hard times, but this is a person who's been talking about hard times and good old days from the very beginnings.
My favorite song on the first Paramore album is called Franklin, named for the band's hometown, which is no longer their home at all.
Their home is the road now.
Their home is the band now.
It is Paramore against the world.
Franklin is a power ballad of sorts.
Haley sings Everything Has Changed.
The boys in the band sing, "'Cause you remind me of a time when we were so alive.
Do you remember that?
Do you remember that?"
Teenagers.
Jaded and wistful teenagers.
Teenagers scare the living shit out of themselves.
I dig the whole first Paramore album.
I like that song Franklin quite a bit.
And so I mean no offense when I say that Paramore are about to level up. dramatically and absurdly.
The second Paramore album comes out in 2007 and is called Riot.
Riot exclamation point.
This song is called That's What You Get, and it's the best song Paramore has ever done.
Shout out Guitar Hero 2.
If you play this song in the video game Guitar Hero 2 with a plastic guitar, then you know that the before the chorus is the best part of the song.
That's What You Get is co-written by Hayley Williams, Josh Farrow and guitarist Taylor York, who will officially be joining Paramore very soon.
Don't get me started on the lineup changes.
All right, we ain't got time for all that.
I would need a flow chart and a true detective murder board with the pins and the strings and whatnot.
And I would also need 45 minutes.
Myriad lineup changes.
Being in a band is fun and easy.
This is the best Paramore song.
This is the best Paramore chorus.
I love four line choruses with an A-A-B-A structure where the first, second and fourth lines are basically identical and only the third line deviates from the pattern electrifyingly like so.
I love that structure very much.
I love the line, I drowned out all my sense with the sound of its beating very much.
I love any song that uses whoa this many times.
That's what you get as a pop punk song.
It is an emo bop, as Haley might put it, because Paramore are now a blockbuster magazine, cover much larger Warped Tour stage type pop punk band.
But that's what you get.
Also would have been a monster arena rock anthem in the 70s, or a monster hair metal anthem in the 80s, or a monster alternative rock anthem in the 90s.
What makes Paramore huge, from this moment forward, is both their none-of-our-business personal specificity and their all-of-our-business rock star universality.
Just take the word hallelujah. for example.
That's a famous rock star word.
That's a famous and lore-heavy song title.
But Hayley Williams sings the Paramore song called Hallelujah, like no one's ever sung that word before, or like no one's ever sung that word correctly.
This time when I give it up Let's make it last forever Not a Christian rock band, technically.
Never not a Christian rock band, spiritually.
If you're like me, sometimes you just sit around contemplating the relative sameness of all rock music, right?
The structure of a huge rock radio song never changes, really.
Intro verse.
Pre-chorus chorus.
Second verse pre-chorus chorus bridge guitar solo.
Last chorus and you're out.
That's been it. basically, for like 75 years.
And yet Paramore, both adhere to and triumphantly transcend this formula by delivering a pre-chorus like nobody's ever thought to do a pre-chorus before.
That song's called Crush, Crush, Crush, all one word, lowercase.
The pre-chorus is even cooler if you whisper it.
Everyone knows that.
The two, three, four is absolutely essential there as well.
Everyone knows that also.
The whole Riot album is like this.
It is a disconcerting mastery of classic arena rock form.
It is immaculately structured mess.
Riot comes out in 2007 when Hayley Williams is still 18.
We're still dealing with teenagers here.
Increasingly famous teenagers, who are historically the scariest kind of teenagers, in part because they tend to be the meanest and the messiest.
A mariachi band intro.
That's a new one.
That's a fine addition to the huge rock radio song formula.
Shout out Mariachi Real de Mexico, who are credited in the Riot liner notes in the messy scrawled Riot album cover.
No doubt type font.
It took me forever to find Mariachi Real de Mexico in the credits.
I had to physically pick up my laptop and try to twist it to read all the words.
It's very annoying.
This doesn't matter.
Misery Business begins with a mariachi band and then Hayley Williams saying hit that snare.
And then a guitar riff worthy of inclusion in the video game Guitar Hero World Tour.
I don't think I played that one.
I'm sorry.
That doesn't matter either, but it matters to me.
So what and who precisely Misery Business is about depends on when you ask Paramore.
If you ask the band in 2007, when the Riot album comes out and when Paramore appear on the cover of the great Cleveland institution Alternative Press magazine, when AP asks Hayley Williams about this song, then she responds carefully no.
And vaguely, she says, quote, the whole song is a true story.
In real life, the situation was a lot darker than it was in the song.
But when I wrote it, I made myself come off a lot stronger than I was at the time.
It's a pretty embarrassing situation, and it took me a long time to feel strong enough to say something about it.
But now, three years later, I'm no longer reliving it.
Haley also says that talking about misery business makes her want to crawl into a hole.
Probably that'll never change.
And the permanent none of our business intrigue radiating off this song, it's a different story.
There's way less permanent intrigue here without this second verse, without that second line in the second verse, without once a whore, you're nothing more.
I'm sorry, that'll never change.
That particular word is not exactly unheard of in rock and roll but that particular word is rare enough to be jarring, to be shocking, to drive a 20-year public discourse of controversy and recrimination and cancellation and uncancellation and gradual revelation.
For example, by 2020.
Talking to Vulture Haley is describing the genesis of misery business a little more specifically.
Quote, when I was 13 or 14 and I had a crush on Josh, he didn't like me back.
He would go hang out with his girlfriend, who I wrote misery business about because I was a dick end quote.
She means Josh Farrow, the guitar player in Paramore at the time.
Teenagers.
I dig the repetition of I refuse, I refuse, I refuse there into the second chorus.
That's an elite songwriting move.
Elite songwriters make the messiest teenagers.
So Misery Business is a teenage pop punk song about intraband romance with a high school set, Mean Girls.
Coded video.
But even in 2007, Hayley Williams is working to keep even her fans from dismissing this song as mere teenage melodrama.
Talking to Alternative Press.
She says, quote I know we are a lot younger than even a lot of our fans and it's a constant fight to get people to take us seriously.
I grew up with my parents fighting a lot and the guys in the band grew up with similar situations.
Anyone can see what love isn't, no matter what their age.
I think that's the most important message of that song.
And the coolest parts of misery business is during the bridge, when the boys in the band all crash back in on the word involving
It makes all the difference in the world that Haley just sings, involving at the end there, not involving you.
This is my personal experience of misery business.
You zoom in on the tiny, crucial phenomenal details, then you zoom back out, for you know The Discourse.
After 11 years, Paramore will stop playing Misery Business Live in 2018.
Hailey will announce this on stage in Nashville before playing the song one last time.
And then Paramore will resume playing Misery Business Live in 2022, including when Paramore go on tour.
Opening for This Lady.
Here we have a 2010 song called Better Than Revenge by one Taylor Swift.
When Taylor rerecords this song in 2023, she will semi-gracefully change the line about the things that she does on the mattress.
Teenagers!
Regretful teenagers.
As for Paramore, somehow we have only begun to chronicle the Fleetwood Mac calamity inherent to this band.
Josh and Zac Farrow leave the band noisily in 2010.
In part, over the whole, only Haley is signed to our record label business.
Though Zac will return in 2017 and as of 2026, Paramore officially consists of of Hayley Williams, Taylor York and Zac Farrow.
And Hayley makes rad solo albums, too, now.
And there is further intra-band romance to decode at great length on the internet.
And who knows when this band will record and or tour again.
But if Paramore ever do tour again, they'll probably still play Misery Business.
And hopefully they'll play this messy emo bop as well.
The third Paramore album comes out in 2009 and is called Brand New Eyes.
This song is called The Only Exception.
It is the second best Paramore song after That's What You Get.
Either Still Into You or Ain't It Fun is the third best Paramore song.
You pick.
The only exception is a power ballad.
It is the band's most delicate, most vulnerable, most Rilo Kiley-esque power ballad.
It is a cigarette lighter waving classic for a non-cigarette lighter age.
It is about never getting away and never wanting to.
And it is probably not about...
Power Glove kid.
The actual lyrical backstory here, the exact subject of this song, the personal emotional stakes for Hayley Williams and others well, all of that real-life context gets a little gnarly.
But that, of course, is none of our business.
We are so delighted to be joined by Rob Mahoney, senior staff writer for The Ringer and podcast, superstar and renaissance man.
You've heard slash, seen him on Bandsplain, House of R, The Ringer's NBA show, Group Chat, the Prestige TV podcast and many other fine programs.
Rob, thank you so much for being here.
Are you kidding?
Thanks for having me.
I am thrilled.
I think you're my first Rob.
I may be wrong about that, yeah.
I'm biased against Robs.
Wow.
Yeah, you should be honored to be the only other Rob allowed in this venue.
Well, famously, there can only be one.
I think there are some mythologies by which we would have to destroy each other to consolidate our power, but I hope that doesn't happen by the end of the pod.
I think we'll be all right.
Paramore is not really a divisive topic necessarily.
Maybe that'll happen down the line, but we'll keep it civil for today.
My understanding is that you got into Paramore before it was cool.
Is that correct?
Before as cool as one way to put it I would say before it was available enough to pirate so that I actually had to buy this CD.
That early enough, certainly.
Okay.
Okay.
Was it the first record?
Yeah.
First record right out of the gate.
I think it was like just accessible enough to me as a 16 year old who basically would phase out if it wasn't I mean pop punk certainly, but if at least it wasn't like alt rock sensibility, I would just stop listening to it.
And so it's familiar enough, but then also Haley comes in and like blows your swooping bangs aside.
And all of a sudden you can see like everything that this band could bring to the table potentially.
Yeah, i was gonna ask like what drew you to paramore initially and if it was anything beyond hayley.
Or is hayley like more than enough to draw you in initially?
She's certainly more than enough but, like at that stage in particular, like for that first album, it's the most generic that they've ever sounded, as far as just like a band of that era and there were many like them, many with like impressive vocalists of different kinds.
I think it's honestly like that.
That kind of accessibility worked for me and mattered to me as a 16 year old who was dumb and did not know better versus now.
If you tap into the Haley Williams experience um, it can be synth poppy.
It can obviously be in this more like punk pop tradition.
It can also be like increasingly shoegazy apparently as she starts yet another band.
That's right.
Power snatch.
I'm sorry that I just said that to you out loud, but I do think that's actually the name of her new band.
So that is unfortunate and yet accurate.
I'm glad that we have you on record.
I think we can just clip that audio and send it out to the universe.
Just repeat it for 30 seconds.
That's a social clip right there.
We'll cut that out.
Okay.
They were released, the records, Paramore's records on Fueled by Ramen, which is a very cool sort of pop punk label, less than Jake, etc.
But they're a major label band.
And like, does that matter at all in 2005?
Or is that all a remnant of the 90s?
The idea of like a pretend indie, a major label band?
Like, do you care about that kind of thing at all, even in 2005?
I actually did care about it.
And some of that is like, I was so Fall Out Boy inclined that Fueled by Ramen meant something to me.
Whereas if they had just been an Atlantic Records band all the way through, The idea of being an Atlantic Records band in 2005 meant absolutely nothing whatsoever.
It's like such a big tent, especially at that point.
There's no recognizable identity to anything happening there.
So the idea that it's like having this cosign of other bands I'm interested in, that it feels of a wave and of a conversation with, you know, if not just Fall Out Boy, then at least some bands that are kind of following in their wake.
That honestly did pull me in.
Like I honestly think the first time I ever became aware of them was like, probably from some like random, like pure volumecom message board.
And then from there straight to like the fueled by ramen web store to buy the aforementioned CD.
So I have to say like, I was caught in that particular web.
Okay.
I have to say, I love, All we know is Falling 2.
I agree with you that it's the most generic-sounding Paramore record, and the leap between that record and Riot is just enormous.
The difference between that's what you get and anything they've done previously.
When you heard Riot for the first time, did it sound like the same band?
Did it sound like the same band times 10 now?
I think the times 10 is probably the good modifier, especially given where they've gone since that point.
We've seen radical transformations between albums for Paramore by now, but this felt like an intensification of the same concepts, of the same ideas.
It felt like a natural growth album for not just a young band but for Hayley Williams in particular.
Such a young person.
Growing into a teenage pop punk star is its own kind of know celebrity but i'm sure also personal hell in a lot of ways.
And to see someone in a band come through the first phase of that and all of its obstructions, with riot right, i think it's just like an incredible an accomplishment.
Yeah, i agree, and i misery business was such a huge hit immediately and you said to me something like you know it was so huge there was almost an impulse within the scene to sort of push it away a little bit, like it had broken containment into sort of a pop universe, a pure pop universe.
And it sort of threatened to overshadow the band.
Like it was a hit so big you know that they were going to be carrying it around, you know, like Radiohead and Creep or something like that.
Like what was your evolution with Misery Business as a song in real time?
Yeah.
First listen, oh my God, this rips.
Second listen, is this the greatest chorus of all time?
But then by eighth listen, ninth listen, tenth listen.
I think this is where there's a differentiation between a song like The Middle or a song like Thanks for the Memories.
Those truly escape into the pop atmosphere.
They become the song you hear everywhere.
You step into a department store and you hear that song.
Misery Business.
I don't think ever really crossed that threshold, but it did for me become the song you hear on every friend's live journal.
And so that is its own kind of like bubble amplification happening.
At a certain point, you want to be the person who loves the deeper cut off of the Paramore album, even while acknowledging yeah, Misery Business is great, but also, have you heard X, Y or Z?
You keep talking about like pure volume, you know, in a live journal and like MySpace.
And I think it's always an underrated part of this process for me.
Like you have to remember exactly what the Internet was like when misery business first blew up.
Like is your memory of this song?
Even now, when you hear this song, are you transported back to like the angel fire era.
Like how much does the internet matter to the way you remember this song?
Oh, I think it's baked in completely.
I think it's, it's a very internet of its time song.
I think it's a very like.
I have like a sense memory of like people attempting to sing this on like rock band for the Xbox.
Like, just like a, very a relic that, because it was so singular and so powerful at that time, has gone on to have an incredible afterlife and has informed all kinds of music to come, has become one of their singular hits, has fallen in and out of their set list, as I'm sure we can talk about.
But it is an inescapable song because it is so hooky and so powerful and so charismatic.
And that starts with locating it in that, very like I dug this up in the back corner of an internet and it was not served to me kind of satisfaction that I think is so critical to early Paramore success in a lot of different ways.
The pre-algorithm internet in general is a good way maybe to think about it, which seems like a better internet now certainly.
The rock band is very important.
Guitar Hero and That's What You Get is very important to me personally.
That's like my all-time favorite Guitar Hero song. song.
Is that what you get?
I was very good at it.
I don't mind telling you.
I got 100% on expert.
I fully believe it.
Why do we not have that on video somewhere?
I should dig it up.
I would have to hook it up and get it working again, but you're absolutely right.
Another great social opportunity here.
I will get big on TikTok by playing old songs on Guitar Hero.
That sounds like perfect 2026 social media content.
Amen.
Thank you very much.
You mentioned to me that Misery Business may be the all-time greatest Hailey vocal, which is very high praise indeed.
Just the songs to come, the records to come, even the solo stuff to come.
What is it about Misery Business that still might make this her best performance on a purely singing level?
Yeah, I think there are a lot of vocals she has, as you said, solo and otherwise, where you could identify the way that, like all I wanted, has this incredible range or decode decode, has this like evanescing quality that I think is like very powerful in its own way.
Still into you, I think deserves a place in this conversation too.
For me, it's like, it's two things with misery business.
One, it tricks you into thinking that it's something much simpler than it actually is.
And it's one of those vocals where, if you just listen to the gymnastics that Haley Williams is doing on the bridge or the like stair-stepping precision as she goes through the like it was never my intention to brag over and over.
Uh yeah, like that is bravura stuff.
That isn't as obvious necessarily as some of those other vocal arrangements, but i think it's incredibly powerful and, as you will find if you try to sing the song yourself, very difficult to do uh.
But the other part is like it's all personality and some of her other some of her other great vocal songs yeah, they have a truth to them.
You can feel them like in your chest in a certain kind of way.
This has like a snarl and an edge.
That has always been kind of part of her performance style, but it's just like really tapping into her charisma as a performer.
It's like it's one thing to write that stuff in a teenage diary burn book kind of way, as these lyrics are.
It's another thing to really really believe them as you're performing them, and i think that's to me what sells the vocal as being ultimately her best is like where it comes from.
Right.
I agree with you.
Like the personality is important.
Like I always think I'm still into you, like just your mother.
Like there's some quality of her vocals on that, that the edge and the attitude is present there for me.
And the way it is with misery business, like misery business has a lot of words.
I imagine, like if you're trying to sing in karaoke, at karaoke or in a car or whatever, just it's a ton of words, the verses to that song and then these swooping high notes in the chorus, like it's a harder song to sing than you think, which is always a very dangerous proposition.
You know, in a car or at karaoke oh, absolutely true.
I mean, i i think it's one of those things where and this to me is why it's better for one than the other if you try to sing misery business at karaoke uh, you're subjecting people to, i think, just like a violation of the social contract.
Like when you step into that room and you pick up the mic, there's an understanding that like, you can like reasonably fake your way through this and this is not a song you can fake your way through.
Maybe you can talk, sing your way through the verse but like, when belting time comes, you're fucking cooked.
I'm sorry, like i don't care how powerful a singer you are.
That's not the moment where you can like shrink into your falsetto because like, that's not what the song is.
Yes,
Yes.
So you just said you said something like this is the ultimate car sing along song.
And I agreed with that.
But I was wondering what the difference is.
I agree with you in karaoke.
Like there's just a skill issue that is offensive to your fellow karaoke years that you're just not going to reach that point.
But what makes this song ideal for like a group sing along in a moving vehicle?
I mean, for one, the propulsion, obviously just tempo wise, it tracks with hurtling down the highway or through your suburban neighborhood or kind of whatever your setting is.
But also, I feel like for a car sing-along, unlike karaoke, there is that mutual understanding that we don't need to be able to pull this off.
You're not isolated on an instrumental track where it is just you.
You have Hayley holding your hand the whole way and she's going to be belting louder than you're belting.
And so there's just a lot of cover in that situation where we can all scream it together, but there's no judgment in that space which I think Paramore would approve of.
Strength in numbers.
That totally makes sense to me.
So as you alluded, this is there's a long, you know, arduous history behind this song right now.
They very publicly announced you know, on stage Haley announced we're going to stop playing this now.
And they've sort of equally publicly started playing it again.
You know over.
You know there was a span of a couple of years at least, where it was out of the set list.
And I don't ever want to describe something as canceled or even self canceled.
But there's this really weird arduous discourse about this song.
You know in the 1520 years that it's been a very popular song.
Like, what do you make of the arc of misery business?
I'm glad we've arced back to this being a song that is part of their set list for a bunch of different reasons, including it's just a great song.
And incredibly powerful one to hear live i also the way it was phased out that they chose to phase this song out based on basically one line in the song um struck me as like a very well-meaning overreaction to some people a couple people in a very small corner of the internet being very big mad about you know a representation and a performance of I guess like a kind of anti-feminism is ultimately the critique that Haley and the band tried to push away from of like specifically this idea of if you want to take the narrator of the song calling this other girl or woman a whore, look, no one's going to defend it, right?
Like that's not a great thing to do out in the world.
I also think this song, while it does have that edge to it, is like 10 meaner than Avril Lavigne's Sk8er Boi.
And I have not heard a single word about Avril Lavigne's Sk8er Boi.
That's true.
It's just not that serious.
And so the fact that it is phased back into their playlist, Hailey doesn't sing that line anymore.
Totally fair game.
Even sometimes, when the audience does sing that line, she will like playfully finger wag at them, almost like it's become a bit more than it has.
An actual controversy, I think is the right place for this to land.
No, that's that's a lovely thing.
I don't remember the exact timeline, but it's twin in my mind with Taylor Swift with Better Than Revenge, which is, first of all, a very paramour sounding song.
Taylor Swift song.
And when Taylor was doing her re-recordings, Taylor's versions like she changes the line.
You know about the stuff you do on the mattress right.
Like they always ran in parallel for me.
And like do you personally, do you want a band to evolve and to go back to their old stuff and to reconsider it and to contend with their past?
You know and maybe change lyrics or excise songs entirely that they don't stand by anymore?
Or do you prefer a band to that owns its past, even the possibly uglier, more confrontational parts of its past?
I think changing bits and pieces feels like a fair compromise that we can all come to, where every artist is cringing in some way or another about the thing that they wrote 20 years ago, if they're lucky enough to have that long a career.
And so the idea that yeah, I want to tweak this line because it doesn't represent me anymore, or just because I've evolved and I would prefer to say this other thing instead that tracks for me.
I think where I have problems is when bands start excising, as you said, like entire portions of their history, where it's like we don't even acknowledge that this era of us ever happened.
That feels, I mean, just like a level of revisionism that is a disservice to listeners, to fans of those artists and bands.
That just feels like it's Rewriting history in kind of a way that makes my skin crawl.
It's okay to be messy.
It's okay for art especially to be messy.
And I think there's a lot of gray area to work with and a lot of room for eating crow here and there or apologizing for this and that.
But the idea that you need to just completely distance yourself from a past version of you doesn't feel like it really services anybody to me.
No, I agree completely.
You know, Paramore as a band, there's always, there's all these parallel discourses, right?
We've had a lot of lineup changes.
We've had very public, you know, comings and goings.
You know, we've had intra-band romances.
Like, do you, does that stuff enhance the music for you or distract from the music?
When you were getting a new Paramore album, like Brand New Eyes, for example, you know, were you listening to that album specifically to sort of read the tea leaves of what These songs are saying, what Haley's trying to say like encode, about what's going on in her personal life or within the band.
Like, is that helpful to you or does that sort of crowd out the music for you?
All the drama that people are trying to decode behind the scenes?
Honestly, for me, it's neither.
I still enjoy the music just as much.
That stuff is not particularly for me, but I'm not above it.
And I think to go back to kind of this idea of Paramore being of a particular era of the internet.
I think this ties into that conversation really acutely where I'm all for bands having all sorts of entry points.
And for different people it might be just like.
I heard Misery Business and that song rips and I want to hear more.
For other people, it might be Paramore is of this particular era. scene or, or like subculture.
And I want to tap into that.
Maybe it's a fashion thing.
Maybe it is an iconography.
Maybe it is just simply like these sorts of best kept secret ideas that you are always like, I am one Tumblr post away from understanding what is happening here that yeah, has contributed to, you know, the, the larger Taylor Swiftification of a lot of pop music and just like these buried Easter eggs.
It's like That concept that, if I can just be enough of a fan in this particular way, there is untold depth to these songs is a really appealing and attractive idea that for me, I'm not going that deep.
But if that's what it takes, if that's what you get from enjoying Paramore, then I support you.
I love that for you is, I think, the right way to approach the vast majority of what people are doing on the internet.
That's a very healthy approach that you've taken.
We try.
We try.
Rob, what is the best Paramore album and how cool is it that nobody can agree on what the best Paramore album is?
It's honestly one of my favorite things about them.
Yeah.
For me it is After Laughter, which I know some people might not have in their top three albums, depending on what your sensibilities are.
I think there are a lot of people who love Brand New Eyes, and that album does very little for me.
And so the idea that there's a Paramore for everybody...
I find to be one of the most attractive things about the band.
But I love After Laughter as a reunion album of sorts, as a departure album.
It's clearly like again, they're most like synth poppy, especially at that point.
Effort to that date.
But I think that it's just like full of things I didn't know Paramore could do.
And some of that is being full of adult anxiety in a way that maybe this is just me right now, but certainly speaks to where I'm at.
Yeah.
Does the only exception do anything for you?
Just speaking of brand new eyes.
It's sort of the anomaly on that record but like that's, I love that song so much but I'm sort of conscious that maybe where is the hardcore Paramore fan?
Do you think on the only exception and where are you?
This is a very thorny question.
It is.
I find my understanding at least again based off my cursory dips into Paramore internet is that Haley herself is not the biggest fan of this song.
I can imagine that's true.
Not just as a hit of a certain kind, but maybe a certain performance style or the history of that song in particular.
It's not one I return to a lot.
It's one I'm impressed by and will glance through.
But I can't say it's like a load-bearing Paramore hit for me.
Again, a healthy approach, I think.
It's weird to listen to Riot and listen to Misery Business and think of this as a fairly young band, right.
Like they're not superstars yet.
They're a Warped Tour band, you know, and they get huge on the Warped Tour.
But the Warped Tour Hayley has talked a lot very recently about how traumatic it was and how ugly it was and how she was treated and how she was talked about.
What were your personal Warped Tour memories, like you know, and did you think of Paramore in real time, even up to riot, as like primarily a warped tour band?
I mean certainly of that ilk.
I think I mean everything that Haley has talked about in terms of the bands that were performing and promoted and just like the larger boys club, feeling of, if we're going to be honest, like basically every rock movement in history, but certainly pop, punk and emo at this time unquestionable undeniable uh, pretty fucked up in the grand scheme of things.
It's a miracle that she and the band made it through that point and a bigger one that they have sustained in the way that they have and kind of reinvented themselves so many times.
But at that snapshot, they did feel like a Warped Tour band to me.
And they felt like exactly this Again.
There's a very particular time where it's like And maybe the only point in No, not maybe.
Definitely the only point in human history.
You could show up on a day and see uh thursday, paramore and real big fish all in rapid succession, and that's simply a thing that had to be captured in time and will never happen again.
Um, i mean it's, it's a very strange place.
I i will always remember warp tour as fundamentally it's such like a younger crowd that it's a lot of like random injuries happening as a result of like baby's first mosh pit, Inescapable.
A lot of rookies.
Legitimately.
So a lot of rookie mistakes being made.
My other lasting memory is people going to see the band The Used and their lead singer, Burt McCracken.
I always want to call him Burt Macklin.
Burt McCracken who would sing so hard he would vomit on stage and people rushing to the front to get vomited on.
So like that is the place in time that we are coming from.
Sure.
I don't want that.
I don't think I wanted that from anybody, from any band at any point in my life.
And now I'm wondering if I'm just I'm not locked in enough on rock and roll that I've never actively wanted to be vomited on.
Maybe not.
By Burt McCracken or anybody.
That's, That's really unpleasant to think about.
I'm sorry to bring it to the table.
It's all right.
No, I appreciate you talking about it.
I don't want to talk about it, but you can talk.
Okay.
That's gross, man.
Absolutely.
That's really... But it was the style at the time, I guess.
It certainly was.
Just a couple of questions to wrap up.
One of the big questions dogging paramore the whole time is like when will hayley go solo?
Will she go solo like obviously it comes out eventually that only she's signed to the label but she really wants it to be a band and it's still a band.
But she does eventually start putting out solo records, but they're very different.
They're very quiet, they're very modest, like ego death at a bachelorette party.
Her solo record From last year, from 2025.
I love that record.
Unbelievable.
I love that record as much as any Paramore album, if that's weird to say.
I think that's fair.
I wonder what you make of her solo and what you get from her solo that you don't necessarily get from Paramore.
Yeah, I think part of it is those albums to me really establish solo Hayley as...
One of like the great vocal shapeshifters of her generation.
And you see this somewhat Paramore.
We talked about the way that the band has kind of like changed their sound over time.
But Paramore to me as a band mostly treats Haley's vocal as like its own special effect, right?
There's some touching up, there's some formatting.
They're doing some things with it, but it's front and center in like a very clear and mostly undistilled way.
On these solo albums, and I would say on Ego Death in particular, which is, I think, by far my favorite of her solo efforts so far.
I mean, there is layering and modifying and just like a presentation of a totally different style that – I mean, it just explodes into something else.
And so you hear that record and you're like, I hear a little Fiona Apple in here.
I hear a little Lana Del Rey in here.
I hear like some Caroline Polachek in here.
And the idea of, as you're saying, like the culmination of all this, I mean, I guess to the extent that it's always spiraling like she's a solo artist, and in Paramore, and in this other band, and in this other band.
But I love that she wanted to be in a band from the outset.
And I love that even after being in one for so many years, she would still have so many different musical things to say in all of these different capacities.
It's super telling to me that Paramore opens for part of the Eras tour.
You know, they're directly connected to Taylor Swift.
I hear so much of Paramore in like Olivia Rodrigo, even someone like Chapel Roan.
Like I hear so much Paramore in our biggest pop stars now.
Like is Hayley Williams to you the platonic ideal of both a rock star and a pop star?
I mean, I'm biased uh, but i do think so.
I think it would be insane to use her as a template, like to look at hayley williams and say i'm just gonna try to do everything she did.
That would be a little wild, including just like how she performs.
But if you want to boil it all down as like a performer who has been able to manifest what she has wanted for her career through a lot of shit, who is in that like hundredth percentile in terms of charisma, not just in a room but on a stage, The fact that she's become an icon in her own way, on her own terms, and that she's dealt with all this stuff and hasn't always been perfect, but owned up to things in just the right way.
I just think there's a lot there that any pop star, any wannabe rock star could take away.
And frankly, I mean this is also legally decided.
But if you just listen to Misery Business, you can basically see Olivia Rodrigo sprouting out of the side of Hailey's head.
So it's kind of inarguable at a certain point.
Sure.
That's a very rich image on which to close, I think, Rob.
Thank you so much for talking, man.
This has been awesome.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, a real treat for me.
Thanks, Rob.
Thanks very much to our guest this week, Rob Mahoney.
Thanks to our producers, Olivia Creary, Justin Sales, and Chris Sutton.
Additional production by Kevin Pooler.
Animations and graphics by Chris Calliton.
Additional art by Matt James.
Special thanks to Cole Kushner.
And special thanks to you, of course, for listening slash watching.
And now let's all go listen to Misery Business by Paramore.
We'll see you next week.
