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Headspace Studios. Hello, dear Headspace community.
It's Robin, and with me today are Rosie and Headspace mental health coach, Nika.
And today we've got some really great questions about how to support someone who is going through a dark period, but at the same time making sure they can protect themselves.
And we have a question about what to do when you're afraid you will be left or abandoned in a relationship if you say the wrong thing.
And we have an email from a listener who wanted to share another way to approach putting down your cell phone or other addictive technologies.
Let's get right to it.
Have you ever wished you had a wise meditation teacher on speed dial?
Or a therapist you can call after a long day?
Or a mental health coach you can lean on for advice?
Someone to help you see things differently?
Welcome to Dear Headspace, a podcast where I sit down with Headspace experts and we answer your questions.
Well, hello, ladies.
I am so excited to be sitting here with you both today.
I mean, we're excited.
I'm excited. I mean, couldn't tell from that pause, Rosie.
I just felt like a deer in headlights just then, you know.
Welcome to my world.
How are you, Nika? I'm good.
I am excited, Robin and Rosie, everybody.
The Rose. The Rose.
The Rose in the house.
All the R's and Rose.
Well, you two. I have to say that there's something even more exciting than us all being here.
For the first time, a listener sent us an email.
They listened to an episode and they wanted to offer another way to look at a problem, specifically putting down our cell phones.
So I cannot wait to share that one and to discuss it with you two.
But first, let's take a question from Amanda.
Hi, my name is Amanda.
And I had a question about how to navigate supporting a loved one when they are going through very, very dark times and how to take care of yourself and your kids or those around you when it seems like maybe their negative energy is impacting everyone in the house.
Obviously, we have, we all want to be supportive, but at certain times, it just feels like maybe we, as the people who are not suffering, should take a break from that negativity to not drag ourselves down.
Thank you. Bye. Well, thank you for your question, Amanda.
I mean, first off, just, you know, sending love and vibes your way, because that sounds like a lot.
And I think all of us, you know, who've been in relationships, long term, short term, can we're with you on that because it is it's hard.
Like I often talk about only there's only room for one person to be upset sometimes in a relationship and the other person has to support.
So it's like kind of Amanda's asking around that, like how to support, how to also take care of yourself.
And so I'm curious what you two are thinking.
Yeah, I've definitely been where you are, Amanda, and it could be very, very challenging to help hold space for somebody that you really care about, while at the same time caring for yourself and other people in your household, especially if the energy can maybe drag you down and maybe drag down the whole
vibration of your home.
And one of the things that I find has been, well, I'm thinking about a current situation that I'm dealing with right now with my brother -in -law that is affecting our entire family.
And I think the first thing that was really important for me was to set boundaries in that situation because we're very sort of intertwined energetically.
I always laugh and say that we, the three of us, me, his brother, my brother -in -law and, and my partner have a very trauma bondy relationship.
And so it's really important to be able to establish the boundaries and the three of us have to really work on this.
And I think for us having this sort of common language on what boundaries mean for us, for example, there are certain topics we don't discussed or certain certain ways we respond to the other person to alert them that I don't really have the strength right now to be holding all of this or does that make
sense it's like to be able to establish that that boundary offering my presence but at the same time a boundary so that I'm not feeling like I'm gonna get extremely drained and then it starts affecting me and then it's a ripple effect, right?
So I think that establishing those boundaries help encourage not only my own inner strength, but the inner strength of the people that I'm setting the boundaries with, like my partner and my brother -in -law, you know, as harsh as it may seem to them.
I think it just shows them that I have the courage to do that.
It also enables them to have the courage to do it as well so it's it's almost like you're setting the example yes and and also it it's a way to give as well i think right it's like it's a it's a way to help someone put their oxygen mask first before they start helping other people so so that's what i
would offer amanda it's almost like it's almost like you know when you sit down with your family or friends and you're about to play a board game and you flip the box over and you're always like here are the rules and everybody's like right to go we go in clockwise order and it's like setting up the communication rules
so that if someone says x y and z you know that means they need a minute like that I just think there's something that's really smart about so everyone's playing the same game yeah and I think that one of the things too and I'm curious Nico what you think about this is I used to feel really bad about doing
that and I I could hear it in Amanda's voice too that there's a little bit of that sort of she's a little bit reticent about saying anything or you feel bad a person struggling you're like yeah yeah so i'm curious nico what what you think about that yeah that's interesting because that was what where my
mind went to is that there is some guilt there for her right for this person that i feel guilty because i don't feel like creating space for you all the time and you know i have a lot of friends who i'm supporting who are going through some really heavy things.
And I also know, like, I only have so much to give.
And either I want to feel guilty about it and not ever want to talk to you at all, or I'm just going to deal with what I need to deal with, you know, take care of myself and then have the space for you.
So I think one of the things for the caller is to not feel guilty about needing that space.
And if it's dark, it's dark.
Like, that's where we are right now.
That's what it is. But I can't feel guilty in that moment.
And I do love the thought of boundaries and creating them and really set an example because it can be hard to, when people are in dark times or in a dark place, to set boundaries or to have rules of engagement.
It can be difficult because often, usually it is something that's never happened before.
And like, what are we doing?
I don't know how to do this things.
So when someone steps up and says, hey, this is what I think we should do, right?
Or we get each other's input and create a space for one another, right?
In that box versus I'm over here by myself trying to figure it out, you figure it out over there by yourself because it's getting on everybody.
And so we got to create, I think Robin said, a language to figure out how we get through this thing.
But if you are sitting in too much guilt, that can be difficult.
So I would certainly say when you are feeling guilty, if that's coming up for you, realize like this is normal.
Like you're okay, right?
This makes sense for you to feel that way.
However, because you still have to be in relationship with this person or your family member and everybody else, how do we walk through this together as best we can?
And it's not going to be perfect.
There is no perfect solution in these times.
Well, and I also think it's okay to say to your partner, like, you know, you've been drinking all the water that's coming into the house and I'm thirsty too.
So if it does start to really like tip the scales where you are always in the caretaker role and the other person is always the one taking up the space, it's okay to support a person, but also take care of yourself as well.
And sometimes maybe it's okay to be a little mad about it.
Like I'm, I'm like looking at like the coaches and being like, is that okay I said that?
Is that okay I said that?
It's really okay. Like I think we have to normalize anger, you know, when it's rightfully placed.
Like this is a place where I'm pissed that I gotta do this.
I'm pissed that I'm in this situation.
I love you. I want to be a service, but I don't like this right now.
Yeah. And it doesn't, maybe you're not even mad at them.
Maybe you're mad at the universe or whoever you believe in, whoever's running the show.
Yeah. Like I'm mad.
It's okay. I'm still here.
I still love you. still do all the things.
I'm having a moment.
Well, Amanda, we are sending all kinds of love and communication vibes your way and we hope it gets better.
Keep us posted. All right.
Let's go to our next call from Emily.
Dear Headspace, my name is Emily and I am from Ohio.
Recently just got out of a three -year -long relationship and I've noticed that I have a very hard time letting go of people.
I was wondering if you could cover the topic of anxious attachment and why even in my friendships, I'm constantly afraid that I will be left or abandoned if I don't say or do the right things.
Thank you. Thank you so much for your question, Emily.
This is you know, this is a lot.
I think there's a lot of us out here who worry what people think and you don't want to lose people and you you but you want to be able to say what you want to say.
I mean, so what do y 'all think?
You know, it's interesting this came up because I'm doing some of my own attachment work, right?
And just kind of from my upbringing and, you know, I've done lots of work over the years and I'm still dealing with this?
Like, really? And so the difficulty in letting go of others or being afraid of, you know, what if they don't want me?
What if they don't like me?
What if they don't see me?
It really, honestly, it's a lot of work to really get to that place of It's healing, right, to do that.
But I think once you begin to not look at your value being about what other people think of you, whether they see you or not, like you learning to value yourself and just kind of, you know, looking at your own self -worth is where that work begins.
And it can be difficult, right, if you've been doing this for a long time, but it's baby steps.
I love to take baby steps and beginning to journal and beginning to affirm yourself in whatever way you can, while also maybe going into some therapy and really digging deeper.
because those that anxious attachment and just attachments in general, they've guided us all of our lives, right?
They have helped in some ways, right?
They have helped us, you know, maybe get through, you know, terrible times or, you know, through some sort of trauma, but they're not really meant to stay, right?
And you're not meant to stay that way.
And so as I've grown into more secure attachment, I still have more, you know, dismissive attachments and disorganized attachments from my upbringing that happened.
And so they arise. And I have to remember all of the work that I've done in working on my own self -worth and just realizing like I'm worth it.
I'm here for myself, whether someone else is here or not.
But those are things you have to affirm and work through.
And I always say it takes time because it does.
We live in a society where everything, we want everything to be quick and fast.
And I want to be healed so I can go to my next relationship and go into the next thing.
Truly, right? Yeah, it's like healing.
Hurry up. Like, why am I still, even us, like we're like, okay, why am I still dealing with this?
It's been 40 years or whatever, you know?
It's like, I totally agree with what you're saying, Nika.
And I really love that, actually, because I really do believe that cultivating a strong sense of self reduces the fear of others leaving.
And I think that I can absolutely relate to what Emily is saying because I'm the same way.
I used to feel like if somebody really sees me, if they really see who I am and they leave me, what does that say about me?
So we put so much of our self -worth into people staying and people leaving.
And so when we're able to establish a deep sense of self and connection to ourselves.
I think it allows us to feel more whole and more secure.
And it doesn't matter at that point whether somebody goes or stays because you're rooted in your own sense of self.
Now, that doesn't mean it's not going to hurt, right?
I mean, I think that pain is inevitable.
It's a part of life.
And I think that if you're able to share your fears vulnerably with the people that you're with, letting them see your humanity, I think that relationship's built on that honesty.
And I only say in the honesty, because I remember for me, I would always share that I have an anxious attachment.
I'm like, I'm anxiously attached.
And it became such a part of my relationship identity that in a way, I felt like saying that would entice people to stay.
I would think that, oh, if I tell them that I'm an anxious, attached person, then they'll stay because they won't want to hurt me.
And obviously, that's not how it would work.
But I really felt like even in that, I had to really take some honest self -appraisal and understanding what my motivations were and creating space both for myself and the people I was in relationship with to feel like I could be my whole self, right?
Well, I'm so glad you said that, Rosie, because as you all are talking, this thing just keeps swirling around in my head about the why based on what you said, Nika.
I think a lot about like how it shows up for me is i don't want anyone to ever be mad at me like so i'm always trying to say or do the thing that's like you could see why i did it i wasn't trying to hurt you i what you know it's like i start like and it shows up like that for me so i'm just like do
you need to first understand why you did that because i'm like i just only recently discovered i did that like and now i'm like well where the hell did that come from for sure like well let me say let me How much time do we have to talk?
I know. I'm like, damn, I'm like, we could we could get deep into this.
If this was a sitcom, it would be like cut to 48 hours later.
Well, I will say this.
First of all, I'm not a expert in attachment theory, but I will tell you what I know is that most of it comes from our childhoods.
Right. When I think of myself, you know, abandonment was my wound.
Right. You know, so that's where so we talk about why, like Emily will have to go back, like, where is this really coming from?
It's not these friends that you met two years ago or three years ago or this three year relationship.
This is from, you know, this inner child, this attachment, this something that did not happen.
Someone did not come through for you.
Someone, you know, dismissed your emotions.
That's where that comes from.
And you while you may not see that right now.
All right. You know, as we're talking about it, like that's where it comes from.
So for me, like that's my why, right?
If I look for my relationships, like if I'm not seen and heard like that attachment, that anxiety rises up in me and not like in a work situation or whatever.
Like, I'm fine with it.
But it's those close relationships, those romantic relationships where I get anxious.
You know, if I'm dating someone like, you know, call me back.
You can call me back.
What's going on? what's wrong you know did I do something you know what I mean it's just like a whole thing did I do something wrong I literally texted Rosie the other day and was like where'd she go where'd she go yes and Rosie's like right here meanwhile she had texted me back I just didn't see it
no I didn't even and I'm like what is going on I'm like I literally have a VIP alert when you email me like you're the first person I want to get back to I feel like the anxious attachment and again I'm not I'm not an expert I can tell you how to meditate on it you know but but I feel like we tend to
find each other right you know like is that yes right yes and and I will say this for Emily like because of that there's a narrative that plays so what she's saying right now like in every relationship that narrative is playing even if it's not true yeah yeah that hits hard bomb yeah it's hard we got
real quiet there well Emily I mean it's like I so I guess it's like we're saying to Emily like explore how and why this is there and then give the space for like whether this is true whether this is real and and for sometimes people are going to go like people are there for a reason or a season.
Yeah, that's right.
Let's let's all check back in about six months to see if any of us are doing this.
Shall we? Seriously.
Well, Emily, thank you so much.
We're with you. I mean, again, I think we've shown you you're not alone.
And, you know, we'll all figure this out together in time, reason, season, all of that.
OK, after the break, we're going to hear from Lonnie, who has thoughts on how to put your cell phone down.
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All right. So for our last question, we're actually doing something a little different.
We've got Lonnie who sent us an email with another way to look at putting down our cell phone.
So here's the email from Lonnie.
Good morning. I was listening to Dora's talk on phone management this morning.
It's one of several that you've published regarding how to relate to your phones and other similar devices.
It occurs to me that there might be a different way to approach this.
It's not and never has been about the phone.
It really is about what the phone transmits to you.
The reasonable analogy is to think of it as a doorway.
Issues with doorways are never about the door.
They're about what comes through the doorway.
With a phone, it isn't about the phone.
It's about what it opens up to you.
On the other side of this phone -slash -doorway is a crowd.
People we care about in some way, information we need to make decisions, distractions that we think will make our lives more pleasant, etc.
All pressing up against that doorway, Putting the phone in another room, closing the door, turns it all off briefly, but it doesn't manage the crowd.
When you open the door again, the flood resumes, perhaps a little more out of control than when you left it.
May I recommend that you spend a little more time on approaches to managing the crowd behind the door.
Look at each app and ask why.
Evaluate whether the benefit of having that app, as an example, is worth the cost.
Cultivate other, less out -of -control doorways.
These are just some thoughts.
I guess my point is that focusing on the phone may not get to the real challenges that our lifestyle and society have imposed on us.
All the best and thank you, Lani.
I love the perspective.
I live that life, Lani.
Yeah, same. I live behind that door.
I mean, here's the thing.
We do need phone management techniques to get people started, right?
just to put the phone down.
And then from after that, then we get to the deeper stuff.
Again, the why. Why is it that I have to be attached to this app?
Why is it that I have to talk to a million people or text or whatever it is?
I don't know. In my own personal life, I don't get notifications.
I love turning them off.
Love it. I love, like, I get weather notifications.
I need to know if it's going to be cold outside.
If it's, like, that's important.
We need to know. It is true.
But I had to learn that, though.
I had to learn to even detach from my television.
Like for years, I would have to go to bed with my television on and I moved the television out of my room.
I would move the phone like out of the room until someone told me that I needed to bring it in just in case there was an emergency.
But I moved those things out because they were taking up space, right?
Mental space. They were distractions.
They were keeping me from really dealing with the things I needed to deal with or maybe doing the things I should have been doing.
So I'm in full agreement with that, that getting to the root of the issue, what's behind the door is important.
But I also I don't buck the idea of let's just start where we can start.
So if it's starting by turning the phone off for an hour or just putting it in another room or whatever you need to do, let's start there.
And then we can get to some of those deeper issues or concerns.
Yeah. I love this as a practice of intention, right, Nika?
I totally agree. And I'm my phone clocks in and clocks out.
I don't see it past 6 p .m., maybe even earlier, actually like five.
I don't see it. It goes into my office space.
And oh, yeah, I don't look at it again.
And I'm so used to it now that it's it's like I plug it in and I don't see it again.
And if have a partner who who does have his phone and people know to reach out to him.
Fortunately, that's never been an issue.
But I think if I'm looking at it from, you know, from Lonnie's perspective, I think it's really interesting.
I think for me, having this very rigid relationship with my phone is really about embracing those moments of discomfort.
Because I find that oftentimes for me and for a lot of people I know, we, you know, we reach for our phones to avoid uncomfortable feelings or to just go.
I don't know what you're talking about, Rosie.
Well, it's true, you know, like I, I had this really bad habit of, of scrolling, you know, on, on social media.
And, and I could just, I could go on funny.
I have funny reels.
I follow a lot of accounts that are just like, make me laugh.
And if I'm feeling like I want to laugh, I just go on Instagram and my algorithm knows me so well and there's good stuff on there.
I could be on there for a long time, you know.
But I noticed that there was always this impulse, you know, that I just I would reach for, especially when I was watching a show, something would there would be an ad or commercial.
It's like, boom, get reach for my phone.
It's like reach for my phone.
Oh, I want to look something up.
Reach for my phone.
Oh, I want to write that down.
I want to come back, oh, what did they say?
I want to see, you know, check out this podcast.
It was just constant, constant, constant impulse reach.
And I found that with me being very methodical about not reaching for my phone or not even have, that's why I would clock out.
The phone would go away somewhere.
If I want to watch a show or something or a YouTube show or something, I don't even have my phone near me.
Once I did that, then all of a sudden my iPad showed up in the living room.
I'm like, oh, I'll just use the iPad.
It's like the phone's clocked out with the iPads there.
But I noticed, I'm like, okay, why can I just not sit here and watch this?
Oh, because I don't want to forget.
I want to write it down.
I don't want to forget that thing or to look this up or I got to all of a sudden buy paper towels, you know, all of those things.
It's like, just embrace this moment it's okay you don't have to remember everything okay so my thing with with lonnie's email is ultimately like he's using the door as an analogy about what's behind the door but it feels like y 'all are still saying what we said before which is like finding the relationship
to how to put the thing down i mean is lonnie suggesting we consider deleting instagram Is Lonnie suggesting 20 minute breaks?
Like that's the part where I'm trying to get my head around the nuance of the door analogy.
From what I understand, it's what is the compulsion that's happening?
Like what is your what is the constant reach for relief?
And that's exactly what it is.
We're reaching for a type of relief.
We're reaching for a type of connection.
we're even maybe reaching for self -soothing yeah or purpose we're reaching for a reason to be or a reason to be in connection right I mean we constantly go on Instagram or any social media it's called social media like we're wanting to be social but it's not a replacement for the actual experience of being
social. And we know that even from a physiological perspective, from a neurological perspective, like we get a very specific type of dopamine hit.
We have all the dopamine, the oxytocin, the serotonin endorphins that we get from being in the presence of another person, even seeing their facial expressions.
Like there is a physiological effect we do not get from a phone.
This is like a paperweight.
This is not your device for purpose and for connection.
It is a tool. This is a tool.
Well, and I just read some article recently about how a bunch of Gen Zers are having like relationships like with AI, almost like intimate relation obviously not physically intimate but emotionally intimate relationships with ai and it makes me think about that about the thing that's missing is intimacy
and it's being replaced by the technology so like i'm thinking what lonnie means is behind the door so it's like i because i think that what we've been saying to date has been prescriptive about ways to rules you can set up to put the phone away but without addressing the thing we're all the hole in our
hearts that we're trying to fill with a phone.
Right. I think it, you know, again, goes back to a little bit to attachment like we talked about earlier.
Like, what am I getting from this?
You know, and in those moments when you really, when let's say you decided that I'm going to, you know, put my phone away, asking yourself why when you are grabbing it, what's my why?
Yeah. Right. To Rosie's point, what's the purpose?
What is that? Like, this is different.
this is a little bit different but like when I'm trying to watch what I eat which you know at this point it's not as easy as it has been but when I'm wanting to grab that cookie or I want a glass of wine or whatever it is like why why do you need that?
and it's not that I need it like I don't need the cookie I'm going to survive without eating that cookie right?
and I'm not even hungry yeah what are you really hungry for?
what are you really you know?
Come on. What am I?
So what am I grabbing this phone for?
Yeah. What is this need that it's feeling for me?
Because it's feeling some sort of need, whether it's social, whether it's distraction, whatever it is, it's feeling a need, especially if I'm realizing it's become a problem.
Now, if it's not a problem for you, fine.
Do your thing. Right.
But if you know that this is a problem, then let's dig a bit deeper.
Let's figure that out.
But asking yourself in those moments when you've decided, like, what is the reason?
What is the purpose?
What is the why? What is this feeling for me?
Then I can figure out the rest of the stuff, right?
Well, Lonnie, thank you so much for sending in your thoughts.
Like, and, you know, for me, like the questions were great.
That email was great.
I just, I love that our community is so engaged that folks want to take part in the dialogue and share their advice, too.
And that to me is just fantastic.
Yeah. I really enjoyed the questions today and I really kept thinking about a meditation in the app that I really enjoy doing and I feel like everybody could maybe utilize it in some way with the questions that we had today.
Managing anxious moments.
It's a good one. Highly recommend.
Five out of five. Five out of five.
Ten out of ten. That's a fantastic suggestion, Rosie.
And to anyone who's listening, if you're out there and maybe you're looking for coaching or therapy.
Headspace has mental health coaching and it is available within the app, which is how amazing is that?
And once you sign up, you're going to get one on one support from your very own mental health coach or therapist, someone like Nika here.
That's right. Headspace coaches and therapists are trained professionals who will work with you to co -create goals and support you in achieving them.
It is. It's just such a helpful offering because it's support anytime from anywhere, which I mean, In this 24 -7 world, we need that.
And I also want to say thank you to Amanda and Emily for their questions and also Lonnie for your advice.
It was really nice to just kind of open that discussion back up and take it just a little bit deeper.
And if you have a question for us, go to sayhi .chat slash DeerHeadspace.
You're just going to follow the prompts to record.
And as always, that link is in the show notes.
And then if we do use your question on DeerHeadspace, you're going to get three months of Headspace for free.
Yay! And now we've reached one of my favorite parts of the show.
A moment to pause and to take a breath before diving into whatever comes next.
We've set aside some time for you to unwind and reset.
So here's the gentle sound of a stream flowing through an orchard.
As you listen, allow your mind to do whatever it wants to do.
Until next time, stay happy, stay healthy, and be kind to each other.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Dear Headspace is a Headspace Studios original podcast.
It's executive produced by Morgan Selzer and Sarah Cohn, and produced by Taylor Jennings Brown.
It's hosted and produced by Robin Hopkins, Rosy Acosta, Kaysonga Giscombe, Dora Kamau, and Eve Lewis Prieta.
Post -production by Dan Kroll, music by Scott Sorensen and Chris Mergea.
It was developed by Ash Jones, Scott Sorensen, Robin Hopkins, and Baron Farmer.
And a special thanks to Danny Karisemi and Colleen Lutz.
Thank you.
