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Kourtney, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's our pleasure.
So, how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
All right. My name is Kourtney Kelly.
I have two first names of some people call me Kelly completely okay, if you do.
I was born in New Orleans, Louisiana, and I currently reside Dallas, Texas.
So when I was about 16 Hurricane Katrina hit and I decided to become a civil engineer, which ultimately led me to studying civil engineering at SMU and I have a degree in civil engineering and math and undergrad, a master's degree in civil engineering, and I recently finished my MBA from Lamar University down in Beaumont Texas.
So that's a bit about my education.
What do I do now? A couple of things.
First thing is I am a construction project manager.
So, I've been working on what's deemed heavy civil construction projects for the past 10 years.
And those include things such as airports, roads, bridges, and underground utilities.
So, all of the things that a society needs in order to thrive, right?
Wherever you are today, you drove on someone's road that was paved, there's probably utilities underneath it, and a lot of those things you don't want them to break or fail.
So, that's what I focus on for the first 10 years of my career.
And most recently I've switched to what's considered commercial construction.
My first project was actually at my alma mater at SMU.
And it was a renovation of a 95 -year -old residence hall, which I happened to have moved in 14 years ago when I first started at SMU.
So, it was like an episode of Fix This Old House.
Most recently, I'm at another university, Texas Women's University up in Denton, Texas, doing some renovation projects on that campus as well.
So that's a little bit about my, my official career.
I have a couple of side things that I do, one of which I'm super proud of.
I recently became an author with the publishing of Celeste Saves a City.
It's a children's book about a little girl named Celeste who grows up in New Orleans and has evacuated because of Katrina.
Sound familiar? Yeah, it's my story.
So, I, just like Celeste, Celeste ends up growing up to become a civil engineer, and she saves the city from flooding by restoring the wetlands along the coast of Louisiana.
So that's my author wing.
I also bake treats for rabbits.
I'll say it again because people usually don't, like, catch it the first time.
But I bake treats for rabbits.
So I have a little bunny.
His name is Albus, A -L -B -U -S, like Albus Dumbledore.
And I sell treats to other bunnies and their bunny parents.
That is impressive, my goodness, you have a lot of things going on and everything that you do is at such a high level.
And so let's continue to set the stage, Courtney, because with your incredibly diverse background, not just with the engineering and the project management, but also your entrepreneurial wing, you're having difficult conversations all the time.
Can you tell us what those difficult conversations look like in the construction and world that you're having?
Yeah. So construction is a very high paced environment.
You have a lot of different stakeholders, right?
You have the person as the owner who will ultimately inherit the facilities you're building.
You have subcontractors.
You have your own internal bolts.
And there's a lot of conflict that occurs.
A lot of times we're dealing with situations where someone has designed something on a sheet of paper and we go out in the field and we try to build it and it doesn't necessarily jive with what's on the paper.
And so we have conflicts about constructability and who's responsible for resolving that conflict.
There are a lot of conversations about money, right?
A lot of construction companies, most of the ones that I know or a for -profit organization.
So everything that happens has to get paid by someone.
You're either going to eat the money yourself and kind of take the loss or you're going to try to get that paid by the owner.
So sometimes those conversations can be pretty tricky because the owner is like, I only have $500 ,000 to pay for this, and we're like, well, it's going to cost $750.
What are we going to do about it?
So you have to use different tactics and strategies to get everyone on the same page and to really get to a point where there's a win -win situation, because you don't know what the status of the projects.
You don't know what's going to come next in the future.
So a part of it, too, is building relationships across the board to ensure that when those conflicts arise, you can walk away from them.
And when you get into the next arena with that same person, they aren't looking at you like, man, I really don't wanna deal with the person again.
And let me just go to the next person.
This is great. And there are a lot of gems that you had in your response there, but I wanna really zoom in on this because the sequencing is important.
Because you said we want to make sure that we're building relationships so that when the conflicts arise and those are inevitable, we have a good relationship that's a foundation.
Cause I think a lot of times what ends up happening is that conflict arises, and then you say, oh yeah, I'm supposed to build relationships and build rapport and things like that.
And we try to do it when the conflict has already arisen.
But what you're saying is like, this is essentially a prophylactic measure, beforehand, we're really focusing on the conversation, on the relationship with the other side.
Can you paint a picture of what that looks like for you?
Yeah, so it actually starts in construction well before we ever went to projects.
We're trying to build relationships with all of those future stakeholders when there really isn't anything that either party is necessarily going to get out of it immediately, right.
There isn't like an immediate return on this investment.
So that starts with just trying to get to know people on a very personal level and what we like to consider deep relationships.
So not just on someone's name or where they're from, but knowing about their family, knowing about their likes and dislikes, actually like trying to become friends with them because you guys know if you're friends with someone, it's easier to get through some of those harder times together than it is with a stranger, right, and if you're talking to a stranger, it might be easier for you to say later, like, hey, well, I don't really care about this person, because I don't really know this person.
So we start off with the intent that I'm going to develop a relationship with whoever it may be and start working on that from the get -go so that by the time we actually get to the point where we're signing the contracts, great, everybody's celebrating, and then like a week later they're like oh, you guys are behind schedule, you know, nobody's throwing up their hands.
It's like, oh, you're behind schedule, but I noticed she'll get us at a finish line.
So I'm not worried about it because we already have a relationship established and I trust you.
And I trust that you're gonna treat me with respect and you're not gonna do anything that's disingenuous.
This is just a hiccup and we're gonna be okay at the end of it.
Yeah, that's great.
And really the key word there is trust because the more trust you have in the relationship the more resilient it is in the face of conflict.
And there is no real magic behind it.
the magic is just psychology, it's just repeated, positive interactions with the other person.
And how do you, like, what is the main thing we're trying to show?
It's, we're just trying to show that we care.
Like, that's all friendship is, it's two people who care about each other, and that's really it.
And when you just say, I'm trying to become their friend by caring about the things that they care about, they have a family, they care about that, let's talk about it, right?
You have interests, you have hobbies, that's something you care about, I care about it too, let's talk about it.
Like, it's really that simple.
And I think one of the keys is recognizing that you have to make that investment, even when there's nothing transactionally that you can benefit in that moment, because I think that makes it clear that it's a bit more genuine, too.
Yeah, that's totally it.
Yeah. This is great.
And one of the things that you mentioned, one of the revelations that you had with these conflicts is that they're often a lot easier than you anticipated.
Can you tell the listeners about that?
Yeah, I think, especially early in my career.
I didn't really get it or understand it to be the same way that I do now.
And I thought that everything had to be a battle.
Like, all right, we're going to war.
Let's get our ammo in, like prepare in advance for this whatever conflict it may be.
But now I'm realizing that if I, one, assume that there's going to be conflicts, and two, go in with the understanding that whoever's on the opposite side of the table, there's something that they're after.
There's something that's motivating their decision making.
Maybe it's their supervisor is housing them for a certain deliverable.
Maybe it's they really don't have the money and they're not gonna tell you that, but they're just gonna keep arguing and challenging you.
The quicker that I was able to and the quicker that I am able to figure out what is the motivating factor behind their decision making and behind the demeanor at which they're handling the situation, the quicker I can realize how I need to pivot, how I need to change my strategy.
Maybe I've been saying, well, you know, I need this money for this.
And instead I need to say, you know, I need this money, but let's work together through this to figure out, how can we make this happen?" So really trying to put myself in their shoes and see it through their eyes.
And then knowing that information, what resources do I have between me and my team to kind of come to the table at a place where they can go back to their supervisor and be like, look this is the situation, they're working on it, here's how they've helped me get to a yes, and then it makes everybody look good at the end of the day.
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Absolutely. And it starts with that mindset shift because, like you said, at the beginning, you were saying, all right, we're going to war.
That's what it's about.
You have that really, that combative mindset, and that's just called being a human.
That's how we are kind of designed to think, just psychologically, that's how we think about it.
And then sociologically too, when we think about how society views conflict, it's usually, it's a you or me proposition, I win, you lose, those are the options, right?
But then you realize, no, this is a problem solving endeavor.
We can try to make it a win -win by figuring out what it is that you need and what it is that I need and how those overlap.
And a lot of times, if we signed a contract, our interests are aligned.
It just feels like we're against each other when conflict arises.
And so when it comes to recognize recognizing that and getting into that mindset, how were you actually able to say in your head, Courtney?
All right. This is the mindset shift I need to make in order to make these strategic changes at the table.
So I try to kind of read people very well.
Um, and it's a little bit harder to do through email, of course, but especially we can have a face -to -face conversation.
I'm picking up on clues from that person.
Do they get a little bit anxious when I use certain words when we're talking about that specific situation?
Do I hear something from them that they're telling me that I'm not really listening to?
I might be picking out a paint color, and it keeps saying, well, you know, we really want to stick to the traditional look.
But every time that I bring something to the table, it's a modern look.
That's me not listening.
That's me not understanding what their motivating factor is.
Again, there may be a reason why they have to make certain decisions.
So I really try to use emotional intelligence, for lack of a better term, to get a better understanding of what that person is getting at.
And then, also, if I don't get the answer or the results that I'm looking for in a timely manner, that's usually a trigger point.
Like hey, this is not going in the right direction.
Let me figure out what do I need to do to pivot, to turn the ship around so that it is going in the right direction now.
So that could be, I have sent somebody, you know, two emails and they've been really nasty, and it replies, okay, that's enough.
Time to have a face to face conversation with this person or a phone call with this person and get down to the bottom of what's going on, and we're having, we call them OACs, but owner architect contractor meetings.
If I notice that somebody's kind of like slumming me in an OAC, all right, after that meeting, let's go up to them and see, hey, what's going on here?
Is everything okay?
And so, part of it is understanding a person, part of it is understanding the situation and being more reactive sooner than letting it kind of play out, because usually it's not going to play out in your favor or it's not going to play out in your favor as well if you don't kind of get to the problem quickly and try to resolve it.
Yes, this is so good because what you're recognizing is that we have to make those pivots as necessary, but you're going to make those pivots based on the read that you're making.
And it's so funny, no matter what industry that we talk about with negotiation, conflict resolution, human interaction, emotional intelligence is going to be a part of it.
I don't think many people, when they look at the construction industry, they say, okay, you know, emotional intelligence, that's going to be the separating factor, but it is because we're still all humans.
That's what it comes down to.
And I think it's going to be really easy for people to focus on the, the, the scope of work, the money, the time, whether or not we're delivering on time, all of those things and focus on those like the numbers.
But when it comes down to it, it's still people at the end of the day.
And emotional intelligence is really what separates.
So that's just like refreshing to hear that in every single industry.
And one of the things that you mentioned is you recognize that at some point, you're going to need to adjust your strategy based on the reads that you're getting and then recognize sometimes, if things aren't changing in a timely manner, that's a signal to you.
How do you know what the right time is to make an adjustment?
I mean, honestly, this is probably going to sound like, I don't know, whatever.
But I just kind of get a feeling for things like almost like a sixth sense.
It's like, alright, something's not right here or something is not going the way that I needed to go.
It's time to pivot.
And so it's something that I can necessarily tangibly like say, okay, at this point in time, in every conversation, conflict, XYZ happens.
It's just I'm talking to someone, and I start getting this feeling.
And usually if I get that into, I guess we'll call it intuitive understanding of something being up or something being amiss, then I'm like, all right, let's see something about it.
If everything's hunky dory, and I'm not getting those bad vibes and I'll just keep going the way that things have been going, but usually I get some type of indication, like things are not going OK.
it's time to do something different.
Love it. And that was the answer I was hoping you were going to give.
Because I think a lot of people listening would say, okay, what is the sign, should I wait three days, it's 17 hours, what is the number?
There is no number.
That's what makes it tricky.
But also that's the thing that should encourage all of you, there's nothing necessarily special that some expert negotiators have that you don't have, where we have these objective metrics to go off of.
A lot of it is intuition and feel.
But what you're hearing from Courtney is that, listen, like I feel something, I'm sensing something, I don't exactly know what it is, but I know that I should do something about it.
Like the solution is always proactivity.
It's either changing your strategy or just getting curious, asking questions to figure out what is it that's coming from them that's giving you that feeling, but something needs to be done.
And I think a lot of times what ends up happening is we get that feeling and we're like, Hmm, I'm reading something.
I'm not exactly sure what it is.
I'm going to do nothing about it.
And like, kind of let the negotiation happen to me.
Yeah, that usually doesn't work out well.
Because then something big blows up and it's like, man, if I had done something when I first got that feeling, I probably could have mitigated the situation.
Exactly, and again, we have to be proactive, but it speaks to what it is that we talked about earlier, where you said a lot of times it's a lot easier than you thought it was going to be.
And that's because as we're seeing in this interview, you're very good at being proactive and addressing things when they're not that big of an issue because problems grow if you don't attend to them.
So one of the things is we have to jump and take action, even though it might be scary, but the faster you take action, the more proactive you are, the more manageable the conflict is.
Yep, that's it exactly.
Yeah, no, this is good.
Now you're coming into this field, it's a very technical field, you have a lot of experience, but you said you've described yourself as a spotted unicorn in your industry.
Tell the listeners about that.
Yes. I call myself a spotted unicorn because I'm a black woman and there just aren't that many of us in the work that I do.
And you'll look at statistics and the statistics I think paint a rosier picture because a lot of the black women they're in administrative roles and we really need those people.
They're really the lifeblood of the construction projects and keep everyone going, but where there is a severe lack is in Black women in the operation side of things, doing what I do.
Actually on a job site, boots on the ground, managing the construction activities.
So usually there'd be times that I go in a room and people thought that they were in the spot a unicorn because I was usually the only Black person in the room.
If there was other Black, another Black person in the room I was the only female and vice versa.
If there's another woman in the room, I was still the only Black woman.
And so I just selectively called myself the spot of unicorn ever since I started thinking about it that way.
Yeah, it's, and you know for me coming as a Black man in this industry too, I can definitely empathize with how you're feeling that situation and i think one of the most encouraging things is the fact that you were able to overcome that barrier you're still able to be successful and now i i like thinking about it from the internal side first from the inside out now a lot of times people can find themselves in the situation where they're the only person who looks like them they only have the they're the only person with these uh like this background whatever it happens to be whatever for whatever
reason you feel othered and then that almost operates as like a self -fulfilling prophecy or self -defeating prophecy where we just kind of say, oh, I'm the only person here.
People will not accept me.
They will not take me seriously.
And then as a result, we don't shoot our shots or we do say what we want to say, but we don't say it with confidence.
So we're less effective and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
So internally for you, how were you able to say, yes, I'm the only person who looks like me in this room, but I still belong and I'm still going to stand up and advocate for myself and say what needs to be said?
I think I'll answer this two ways.
So ever since I was little, as young as I can remember, my parents told me that I'd be the first Black president of America.
So Barack Obama beat me to it, but that's OK.
So I kind of came up with this mindset that whatever room I walk into, that's my territory.
That there's nothing, no door that can kind of be kept closed for me.
And I really try to live into that.
Also, I think that I've been strategically positioned to be where I am, to be this person that is going to go before and open up the doors wider for those who come after me and for those who are here with me right now.
So, for instance, I went to SMU for college.
I remember looking at a book of America's most competitive colleges, I think it was 100 most competitive colleges.
At SMU at that time, the Black population, I think, was only 500 students out of, I think, 11 ,000 students.
So I went into that environment knowing that I'd probably be the only Black person in some of my classes, especially going into engineering, I'd probably be one of very few women.
And those spaces really prepared me for what I'm doing right now.
So I can confidently go into any room and be the only, you know, fill in a blank.
And I feel completely confident in myself, in my abilities, and I don't really look for acceptance from other people.
I know my calling I know who I am and how I've gotten to where I am and I also have a huge support system so when negative things do happen in that space, I know that there are people who are still going to back me up and support me and keep me motivated to move forward. Oh, this is so good I'm taking so many notes here, Courtney, this is really good.
So first, like you said any room you go into that's your territory, essentially you're saying, I belong.
I belong, wherever I happen to be, I belong there.
And so there's not a question for you in that situation.
So that's a source of confidence.
And then the next one is you have purpose, because you're going into these meetings with obviously the professional goal, but also you recognize that your success paves the way for the success of other people.
So it's bigger than you.
It's not just you going in for yourself.
It's you recognizing that your success leads to the success of others.
And so that propels you as well.
And I love that last part that you said, where you said you're not looking for acceptance for from other people.
And what's really interesting is counterintuitively is that when you have that level of confidence, when you have that level of swag, where you don't need the acceptance from other people, that is attractive.
That is alluring because people recognize most people don't have that.
And so what is it about this Courtney Kelly person that makes her so confident in herself?
That's really interesting.
And so it's a level of security that most people don't have, and that draws people to you.
So even though you're not looking for acceptance, it makes it more likely for you to find acceptance because you've already accepted yourself first and other people follow suit when they see you have that level of confidence too.
Yeah, and also, I'll add to that.
Sometimes people don't really want to accept me, right?
I'll go into a meeting and they don't wanna make eye contact.
They kind of don't wanna listen to my opinion.
Those people eventually come around.
It may take some time, but eventually they come around.
So before, I might go in and be like, mmm, that person's not really feeling me.
This is going to be a problem.
And I'm like, you know what?
Let them keep doing whatever they're doing.
Eventually, they'll realize and they'll recognize and everybody will be on the same page.
So it's kind of like, dust your shoulders off a moment.
It'll be all right in the end.
And there's a thing too, because I think a lot of times we can create these narratives that might not even be true, right?
because the person might just be stand office in general, they might just float to warm in general.
But I think a lot of time, if you have a history of being othered, whether it's race, gender, whatever it happens to be, our minds automatically go to, oh, it's because I'm black, oh, it's because I'm a woman, or something like that.
It might be, it might not be, they might be having a bad day, but the thing, the reality is, just going way back to what we were talking about before, when we were talking about relationship building, It takes time.
The more positive interactions you have with people, the more trust you have, and the more they like you, then they become your friends.
Different people have a different length of time that it takes for them to warm up.
And so whatever the barrier is, it might be a bias, it might be skepticism, they might be having a stomachache that day.
We don't know. It's OK.
But you read the room, you say, OK, they're not making eye contact with me the same way they're making eye contact with other people.
I don't know what that is, but it is it is a data point that I have logged.
Great. So my relationship building approach is going to be slightly different with this person versus that person because this other person is already more engaged.
So I'll engage with them a different way.
Right. And so, again, it goes back to emotional intelligence, reading the room, but being persistent and confident in yourself.
And you can overcome that barrier regardless of what it is.
Yep. I love it. Now, this is great.
This is great. Well, listen, we are right about time at this point.
But before you go, I want you to remind the listeners about your book and some of the exciting things you're working on and how they can get in touch with you.
Yeah, so my book is Celeste Saves the City.
It was actually just translated into French and German.
So that's available now.
It will soon be available in Spanish.
I'm almost at 1 ,000 copies sold.
So super excited about that.
As a self published author, it's like a huge accomplishment.
So you can find the book, anywhere the books are sold as well as on my website, www .cortneykellybooks .com, also on Instagram and Facebook at Courtney Kelly Books.
Perfect. Courtney, really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
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