After disagreements with President Trump, Oklahoma's governor talks of his party's future once Trump is out of office.
We have to get back to integrity.
We've got to get back to a limited federal government.
Kevin Stitt talks of Trump, immigration and more on a special edition of Up First from NPR News.
I'm Steve Inskeep.
Kevin Stitt is the conservative governor of a very red state who also objected to the president's retribution campaign.
That's un-American.
We cannot be a pendulum swing where we are going back and forth and we're killing different projects based on our political views.
Right,
Also, how does Stitt think about his heritage as a member of the Cherokee Nation?
He takes pride in that identity, which has not prevented him from court battles with Cherokee leaders.
Stay with us for Kevin Stitt, one of the conversations that shed light on our time.
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Kevin Stitt is governor of Oklahoma.
He's also an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and chairman of the National Governors Association, which put him at odds recently with President Trump during a meeting here in Washington.
We had a conversation that ranged from immigration to tribal lands to Trump.
Welcome to Washington, D.C.
Thank you so much.
I want to note that we are talking in the middle of the National Governors Association meetings.
People will mostly see this after this is all over, but we'll just note the time, the place we are in time.
And I want to begin with the controversy of sorts that you're in the middle of.
What went through your mind when you first realized that the president did not want to see all of the governors in meetings at the White House that are very normal as part of the NGA?
I thought my goodness, such a wonderful time to be the chair of the National Governor's Association.
But yeah, here's the deal.
The National Governor's Association is bigger than a single meeting.
And it was started in 1908 by Teddy Roosevelt.
And Teddy Roosevelt was president of the United States.
But before that, he was governor of New York.
And so he started the National Governors Association to bring Republican governors, Democrat governors together.
He believed in states' rights.
He believed having different voices at the table.
And this idea of federalism, that we believe that the federal government should be limited And the power belongs to the states or the people.
That's what we believe.
We believe that Maryland is different than Oklahoma.
Oklahoma is different than Texas or different than Florida or different than California.
And that's okay.
And so we want to get back to that.
So I think it's a very, very important organization.
And so, you know, the president can ask whoever he wants to the White House.
But I just simply said hey, if it's not going to include all the governors, I represent all 50 governors.
We can't facilitate it from the National Governor Association.
So that's where the confusion got.
And everybody was saying, well, you've canceled the meeting and the press was running with stuff.
And of course, I didn't cancel a meeting.
I just simply said, we can't facilitate it from the National Governor's Association.
When the president called you, as I believe he did at one point.
How do you think about your different roles in that moment?
You're the governor of Oklahoma.
You're a Republican.
You've been supportive of the president.
You're also friends with people that he wanted to exclude.
You're a citizen of the United States.
How do you manage all of that?
You're the head of the NGA.
Yeah, well, I mean, we had a conversation.
And I think that the president was— confused about the two different meetings.
I don't think the staff did a very good job of briefing the president.
There's a meeting and a dinner.
Meeting and a dinner.
And so after the phone call, the president said no, it was my intention to invite everybody to the meeting, to the governor's meeting.
And so I clarified that.
We got those invitations out.
Now there's been some other further confusion around that business meeting.
So just a lot of confusion around that.
But after that call we literally got an invitation out to every single governor for the business portion of that meeting.
And the president's got.
He's got a tough job and can't imagine all the things he goes through.
But you know it.
It I've tried to tell all of my Democratic colleagues and all the Republican colleagues hey, it's important to have a good relationship with our federal partners.
When Biden was in office, I sent all of my cabinet secretaries three times a year to meet with their federal counterparts.
Right
Whether it's USDA or Buttigieg when he was the transportation secretary.
And I just think it's important that we have a good state-federal relationship.
And so you know, obviously there's personalities and politics get involved, but the NGA plays an important role and I hope that we can get past this.
The president specifically included by name two Democrats Wes Moore of Maryland and Jared Polis of Colorado.
I've seen you with Governor Moore.
You're friends.
I can tell that.
I don't know specifically about Polis, but I want to ask what you thought of the reasons the president gave for excluding first Wes Moore of Maryland.
Well, he didn't really give me any, uh, any reasons for what he's a bad governor.
And other than that, it was hard to tell, but go on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, and so first off, I just want to say I have a lot of respect for governor Moore and I think that's what Americans want to see.
And that's why Um, you know, I do these, I did a Ted talk with Matt Myers, the governor of Delaware.
And that's why I've done a lot of, a lot of, uh, that's why I'm part of the national governor association, a red state governor, Republican governor from the state of Oklahoma.
I would have never had these relationships to meet a guy like Wes Moore.
Who's a Democrat governor of Maryland, and become friends with him and understand his heart, for he's a great American.
Uh, he loves this country.
He served in the military.
He loves the citizens of Maryland.
And what I think Americans would find very interesting is we agree on much more than we disagree.
We can have great conversations about permitting reform, the need for reliable, affordable energy, immigration reform.
We even agree we have to have a strong border.
And so I think that when people watch the news, they think that there's 17 of the people that are on these fringes.
And most people think that that's where all of America is.
But you know what?
The Americans, I know the Oklahomans, I know they're just saying Governor, I want the best education for my kids.
I want the best infrastructure.
I want the best health care system.
I want the best economy.
And I always tell Oklahomans, let's focus on those things.
Let Washington, D.C. play politics and let's make Oklahoma top 10.
Some people took note that Governor Moore is the only black governor.
Was that a role here?
Was that a factor here?
Oh, I don't think so.
I don't think so at all.
I think there's politics involved and I can't speak to the reason.
But no, I don't think that has anything to do with it.
The stated reason for Governor Polis being excluded is that there is a woman in state custody that Trump once released, a woman involved in a voting case.
As someone who believes in federalism, which you mentioned, what do you make of the president saying I want to pressure the governor of Colorado in that way to get someone out of state custody?
I mean, he's the president of the United States.
He uses his bully pulpit.
And that's part of something we all do as politicians to push our agenda.
But Governor Polis, it's his decision to not do that.
And I respect that.
We have to have belief in states' rights.
And I think that's the big thing that really frustrates Americans right now.
And let's say Kamala Harris would have won.
Oklahoma doesn't want to turn into California.
And right now, Minnesota doesn't want to turn into Florida.
Or we can't have such a strong federal government that it's a one-size-fits-all.
Our founding fathers specifically took the power and said you know what?
There's going to be states and there's going to be federal government and we're going to delineate those powers and those authorities and we're going to give most of the power to the states.
And that was such a brilliant move because now we have 50 different laboratories of democracy.
And what happens in Utah should be different than, you know, than Idaho or than Maryland.
And so, again, you know, those are just two people, you know, trying to use their bully pulpit.
And that's it is what it is.
Are you saying the president can have an opinion but should largely stay out of state matters where it's state authority?
That would be what I would say, yes.
I would say the president's going to do needs to lead our country, needs to put forward different ideas and then the legislature or the Congress has to pass those.
But where the states have authority, it doesn't matter if it's Biden in the White House or if it's Trump or the next administration.
We have to respect state sovereignty.
I think that's a very critical point.
I'm glad you mentioned Minnesota.
During the immigration operation in Minnesota, you spoke out and expressed concerns about it.
Why did you think it was important to speak up at that time?
Yeah, you know, well, first off, Oklahoma, I have – this is something that will amaze people.
We are number three in the country, behind Texas and Florida, in true numbers of turning over – violent criminals to ICE and getting them out of our state.
So there's broad agreement.
We need a strong border and we need to get criminals out of our country.
But when we saw federal agents in states a sovereign state and I started thinking to myself if the shoe's on the other foot and the Biden administration would send federal agents into Oklahoma to enforce a law that he thinks is important.
Oklahomans would be very, very frustrated, right?
So I just call a spade a spade.
And I said, the president needs to tell us what's the end game.
Is it truly to deport every single person here in the country?
I don't think that's what America wants.
We need immigration reform now.
And I think we're overthinking this issue.
I really do.
I think other countries have figured it out.
And we need to match employers with employees.
And the states need to control those workforce permits.
We're closer to our agriculture community.
We're closer to our construction community.
We're closer to the hospitality needs of our citizens.
And why are we not giving three-year work permits?
As long as you've got a job and an employer is vouching for you, now we know who's here legally.
They're paying taxes.
If you break the law, you're out.
If you're on government services or you're taking advantage of Medicaid and not working, you're out.
But this is a simple solution that other countries have figured out.
What would happen in Oklahoma if everybody here without legal status who is working a job disappeared tomorrow?
What would happen?
I mean, it would be devastating.
I mean, I went down, I was in a very rural community.
Trump voters, Trump won all of Oklahoma.
So I went down and talked to a rural part of our state.
These are Trump voting Oklahomans from the rural part of our state.
And I asked him these questions.
I said, what are you guys thinking about this immigration issue?
Just like I said, said, Governor, Trump won.
He won on the issue of border security.
We absolutely need to vet people coming into our country.
We absolutely need to get criminals out.
But they also whispered to me and they said, I run a construction company.
I own a company that does this.
I'm a farmer.
And I have some illegals that work for me.
And they're like family.
They've been here for 15 years.
They go to church with us.
Their kids go to school.
They're great people.
They're trying to get workforce permits and we can't figure it out.
And that's why they're saying Governor, you need, as the governor, to be able to issue these workforce permits so they can pay taxes, they can be here legally and they can work.
I'm not saying give them a citizenship, but let's figure this out because it would devastate the different industries across the country.
And you can talk to the Wisconsin dairy farmers or the Vermont dairy farmers or the fisheries in Louisiana.
We all need labor at some level, and workforce is very important for states and for our economy and we need to figure this out.
If it was up to you, would you be giving those permits to people who are already here, who are here now, as opposed to saying you've got to leave and come back?
I absolutely would.
I would figure this out.
And I know it's nuanced, but I think that's where the American people are.
You could make the argument.
You've got to, they have to leave and then come back or, I don't think that's practical either.
But now, even from the people that say, let's get everybody out, think about this for a second.
If everybody either an employer, had to vouch for them and they were here.
Now you know who the non-workers are, or you know who the gangbangers are, the people that don't have a job.
You get them out.
The countries that do this, they don't have the crime because they don't overthink this thing.
And so I just think we're.
This immigration piece has been so politicized and now It doesn't feel like Congress is going to do anything until after the midterms, because Democrats think they're winning on it, Republicans think they're winning on it and there's just this stalemate.
But states should be at the table to lead on this issue.
States build bridges and roads.
We are hiring teachers and building schools.
It's not the federal government that builds and teaches our kids.
So why do we give this to the federal government to handle the immigration?
Give it to the states.
In a moment, we continue our conversation with Governor Kevin Stitt.
And here is the question.
Why would President Trump ever agree to let workers stay if he imagines they're voting against him?
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A lot of Republicans, the president included, connect illegal immigration with other issues.
The president has repeatedly stated the belief that people without status are voting and voted against him by the millions.
Has that ever happened in Oklahoma?
You know, in Oklahoma, I'm glad you're asking about this.
I believe you should have to show an ID.
I think that's normal.
It's already law in Oklahoma.
I can't walk up to the voting booth and look at the sheet of paper and go yeah, that's me right there.
That feels weird to me.
I think it feels weird to most Americans.
I have to show my ID and say, I'm Kevin Stitt.
There I am on the list.
And they hand me a paper ballot.
I fill it out.
It goes into a machine.
We keep it.
Oklahoma's election laws are fantastic.
I wish every state had that.
We have some states right now in America that are sending out ballots just to every single person.
They just mail them out.
There's no real control.
So I think that is a problem.
How you prove, I think that ID is a very normal thing.
So I think that's the big picture we're trying to get to.
I get it.
But do you think that this happens?
Because this seems to make it very difficult to imagine a solution if the president believes people here without status are voting.
There's no way he would agree to let them stay here to work.
But it doesn't seem to be happening.
I should just note there's no evidence of more than a handful of cases over many years.
I don't think there's a broad – yeah, I don't think there's a broad issue with – I think there's problems state by state.
But nationalizing our federal election system I don't think is the solution either.
Which is the thing the president has talked about recently.
It needs to belong to the state level.
We need to tighten it up.
I think we should.
It's already a law, by the way, that you have to be a U.S. citizen to vote.
So we need to somehow make sure that's happening.
What the solution is, I'll let Congress kind of debate that.
But I will also say even my Democrat governor colleagues They're not trying to get illegals here to turn them into voters.
I don't believe that's what Democrat politicians are trying to do.
And just like Republicans get a bad rap that people think that Republicans don't like immigrants.
That's not true.
There's some common ground that if we can sit down together, we can figure this out.
But politics drives you to your corners.
How do you find common ground with people who are conservative, who worry about cultural change to the country, that that's their reason, that they're worried about immigration?
Yeah.
I mean, um, this is a, this is a melting pot.
It's been a melting pot for a long, long time.
Um, I get those concerns when we see, when we see, when we see what's happening in some of those communities.
Um, that's why we need to have workforce permits.
I think by the States, we have States rights for a reasons.
Um, that's, you can choose to move to another state, I guess.
Ryan Walters, who for a very long time was the superintendent of public instruction that was one of his education positions in Oklahoma made a move on immigration before he left office.
And we'll just acknowledge, for people not from Oklahoma, long history with Ryan Walters went back and forth, ultimately had to leave office.
But I'm interested specifically in Walters' support for an effort to require students in Oklahoma schools to to disclose their citizenship and for the parents' citizenship to be disclosed.
You thought that was a bad idea.
Why?
Yeah, you know well.
First off, I mean with our law enforcement.
Like I said, we're number three in the country for getting illegal criminals out of our state in the entire country.
And we've done this all behind the scenes, working with ICE.
Like in our jails, we actually turn them over to ICE to deport them, right?
So I'll say that off the bat. but we're not going to pick on kids.
I'm not going to make a first grader a criminal.
And so when I saw that happening, I put a stop to that.
And I said listen there's, nobody is going to go into use a kid as a pawn to try to get to a parent.
I just thought that was ridiculous.
We're going to educate young people in Oklahoma.
And again, If we fix the immigration issue, this issue goes away.
They're not a US citizen, but they're here working, doing a job, whether they're working for Boeing, or they're working for the local farm, or they're working for you know, wherever it is, whatever the employer needs.
I just think we're overthinking that issue.
There's a larger question there that people debate.
And there's one point of view that if somebody is here illegally or their parents are here illegally, The kid should not be in school, because taxpayers are paying for the schools and it costs the state money and you don't want to spend that money.
There is, of course, this other point of view, that a kid, if he's here at all or she's here at all, they should be in school, because that's better for society.
Where do you come down on that?
Probably the latter.
But again, if they were here and had a job, what is wrong with that, right?
Do I want to take care of and have people on Medicaid here that are illegally?
100% not.
But if you have a job and you're working and a company is vouching for you, that's the difference.
Then, of course, we're going to educate the kids.
They're paying taxes like everybody else.
They're in the society.
We need more workers here.
We know that.
We broadly know that.
I mean, if you talk to the dairy industry, if you talk to you know the, you know, let's say, big sheep farmers.
They already have these certain visas and we have a lot of people Peruvians, that come in and they'll have a three-year contract for sheep herders.
And so there are solutions, but the federal government is way too slow.
And we would absolutely kill some of these industries if we don't have some kind of immigration thought process to how we have companies vouch for them.
I appreciate you saying Peruvians in Oklahoma, because I think maybe people who haven't been there don't appreciate that it's a rather diverse place, maybe more diverse than they would realize.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Well, I'm an American Indian.
We have 400,000 natives proud of our heritage in Oklahoma.
But yeah, I mean, very diverse people in Oklahoma.
When people hear that Republican Kevin Stitt identifies as an American Indian, they're often surprised.
In a moment we'll continue our conversation by asking what he makes of that Native heritage and why he has battled with Cherokee Nation leaders in Oklahoma.
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I want people to know if they don't, that you're an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation.
What does that identity mean to you personally?
Yeah, very proud of my heritage.
But I would differ in the fact that a lot of people think that well, Indians are owed something or they need special treatment.
If you read anything about me in Oklahoma, I'm in a little bit of a conflict with some of the tribes because I don't believe we should be divided based on race right.
I think we should be a meritocracy.
It doesn't matter if you're black or white or Hispanic or Asian or American Indian.
We're all Americans.
Go chase the American dream.
There's no such thing as equal outcomes, only opportunities.
And I went to public schools.
Then I went to Oklahoma State.
Then I started a business.
I've lived the American dream.
I started my company with $1,000 and a computer.
My parents weren't wealthy.
And I created a company in America.
This only in our country.
We live in the greatest country in the world.
And I'm just afraid that we're teaching young people that oh, because of my race, I deserve this or I should get something special.
And I think that's a loser strategy.
We can't teach that to the young people.
We want you to go dream, work hard, achieve things.
If you invest capital, take risks, work hard, get an education, you should be rewarded for that.
A couple of follow-ups on that.
I don't want to get into all the details because it's complicated, but we should explain for people that part of Oklahoma was historically Indian territory.
There are tribal lands there.
There have been lawsuits for many years before you were governor over who has authority where.
There was even a Supreme Court ruling.
And the question on the table for you is what authority, if any, does the state have to enforce state law on tribal lands?
There's a court ruling that's found that you don't have that authority.
You're even being sued by some of the Indian nations over this right now.
What is your fundamental concern in asserting state authority to enforce state law on tribal land.
Sure.
Absolutely.
Well, first off the, the, the case was called the McGirt case and he was a child rapist.
And in a five four decision, Gorsuch was the fifth vote, conservative justice.
Conservative justice that said that the reservation still exists in Oklahoma, even though we disbanded our reservations at statehood 1907.
We allowed it out all of our land, 160 acres at a time.
It used to be a reservation and it was all, and it still had been bought and sold Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Now, uh, is considered, according to them, half the Creek Reservation and half Cherokee.
So what is the fundamental problem with that?
Fundamental problem is an Indian, somebody that looks like me.
They're saying that I don't have to pay taxes if I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
But a person of another race has to.
But yet our kids all drive on the same, we go to the same schools, we drive on the same roads.
That's the problem.
That's the rub.
They're also saying that the district attorney can't prosecute me for a crime.
And so the max penalty to me to do something would be three years in prison, versus somebody of another race can get 20 years.
We have cases right now, two guys, same crime on the same day.
One is in prison for 20 years.
One is out because he's an Indian.
That to me is not fair.
And this is a huge problem that we need to talk about nationally.
We can't have two different systems based on your race.
I think, uh, Justice Gorsuch or tribal leaders would probably say, well, it's not about race.
It's about sovereignty.
There's this historic nation that was never totally extinguished and it's still there, and they have certain rights.
What are they missing?
Well, number one, they're missing that you can't apply the reservation in the Navajo reservation.
All that land was held in reserve by the tribes.
Okay.
So it's not fee simple land been bought and sold for hundreds of years.
Can't apply that here because the state of Arizona doesn't build roads on the reservation.
They don't build schools or hospitals.
You can't be part of the Medicaid system if you live on the reservation.
They have their own healthcare system.
If you apply that same rule to Oklahoma, think about that for a second.
Oklahoma builds roads and bridges and schools and we police that part.
So how can we police and build roads there?
But yet all the money from Western Oklahoma is going to Eastern Oklahoma.
That'll literally tear our state apart.
That's what I try to explain to people.
Is that, um you, how long?
We have an equalization formula and everything.
You cannot have a system where this race doesn't contribute the same amount and has a different sets of rules.
How'd you find out you were Cherokee?
I mean, I've known my whole life.
Like your mom told you when you were a kid?
Yep.
My cousins all rodeo in the Indian Rodeo Association.
So there's no blood quantum, right?
It's just that you're descended from people who were put on a list.
That's right.
It was the Dawes rolls.
And so from my mom's side of the family...
Robert Dawson was on the Dawes rolls at state hood and he had his blood quantum on there.
And so I'm his descendant.
And so I'm on there.
So when my six kids marry your six kids, then now your kids will be, will be Indian.
So there is no blood quantum.
All six of my children are, and now I have my first grandson, my daughter, thank you.
My daughter married a young man from North Carolina and they met at Baylor.
And so now So it will just keep going is the point.
And so I think it's an important question.
What is race anymore, right?
We're all a little bit of something.
And I just don't believe we should be divided based on that.
How would you want Americans to think about other Americans that have different identities, whether it's Cherokees in Oklahoma or Somalis in Minnesota or any number of other people that we could name across the country?
You know, it's so fun to get to know other cultures and other races and other people.
Traveling is so good for us, right?
Like Wes Moore, an African-American governor from another party.
And we like each other and hang out and we have the same interests.
And I've invited him to go duck hunting in Oklahoma.
Did he come?
He hasn't come yet, but we're going to.
He's a big duck hunter.
He wants me to come out to Maryland with him as well.
They got ducks.
They got ducks.
Yeah, go on.
And so anyway, when you break bread with others that are different than you, that grew up differently, I love that.
I love meeting Kathy Hochul.
And here's the New York governor that grows up totally different than a guy from rural Oklahoma, right.
And so it's just so fun to meet them.
We're all Americans.
That's what makes our country so great is that we are diverse and we all come and bring different perspectives to this idea that we believe in free markets and entrepreneurship.
The American culture is amazing.
One final thing.
What conversations are Republicans like yourself having about the future of the party and what it should stand for after President Trump leaves the stage?
Well, I'm trying to just really bring the states forward a little bit right now as my job as the chair of the National Governor Association.
But I think if we talk about getting government out of our lives, limiting government, lower taxes, unlocking the entrepreneur spirit, stop the pendulum swings.
When I think about, you know, we had President Obama killed the Keystone Pipeline.
And then Trump brings it back, first Trump.
And then Biden kills it again.
Then Trump tries to bring it back.
Well, finally, the developers are saying, forget this.
I don't want to do it anymore.
I've wasted all this money.
And then you guys just keep changing the rules on me.
And, just like today, governor of Rhode Island, they have a wind project that they did everything right.
They've been working on it for eight years.
They have all their permits.
They're 90% complete.
And they just get the plug pulled on them.
That is un-American.
You said that's un-American to do that.
That's un-American.
We cannot be a pendulum swing where we are going back and forth and we're killing different projects based on our political views.
Right,
I think America needs to get back, to get government out of our lives.
Let businesses go innovate, meet the needs of Americans.
At the same point what they did to President Trump's businesses and attacking him in the court system in New York and raiding his home in Mar-a-Lago in Florida.
That's wrong.
At the same sense, when we get into power, we can't politicize the Department of Justice.
That's just such a turnoff for Americans right now.
I just think that we have to get back to integrity.
We've got to get back to a limited federal government and putting states back in charge.
I feel like you're telling me you want to go to the 2012 Republican Party or name a date, but sometime before 2016.
Am I right?
You know I mean listen.
I believe that we should just get back to putting those things forward that we've always done.
Governor Stitt, it's a pleasure talking with you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
This has been a special edition of Up First from NPR News, one of our all-platform interviews, as we call them.
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That's plus.npr.org.
On River to River, we talk to people impacted by change.
Unless they hear our stories, it's not going to have the same effect.
And how to accept change.
A little bit of humility and a little bit of genuine human interaction really matter.
Understand our changing state on River to River an Iowa Public Radio podcast part of the NPR Network.
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What if it had bonus features such as extended interviews and zero sponsor breaks?
There is a remarkably easy way to turn that fantasy into reality.
It's called NPR+.
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Make great podcasts even greater by visiting plus.npr.org.
