Hello and welcome back to Chasing Excellence, a show about chasing what truly matters.
My name is Patrick Cummings.
As always, I am here with Ben Bergeron.
Thank you so much for tuning into the show this time around.
How are you, Ben?
Doing great, Patrick Cummings.
It's good to see you as always.
We've got listener questions this time around.
We take your questions about the five factors of health, those few fundamental behaviors that most positively affect our performance, vitality and longevity.
Those five factors, how we eat, how we train, how we think, connect, and recover.
This time around, we've got questions exclusively from our Chase Club members.
Chase Club is our premium membership, chasingexcellence.email.
If you want to learn more, you can get ad-free episodes.
Cool things like this, where your questions get bumped to the top of the queue book clubs some other fun stuff that we got coming for the new year.
We got five questions about zone two training, nutritional slip ups napping, creating a balanced home training program right up your alley and then fostering community and coaching inside of a CrossFit box.
Before we jump into those wonderful questions, I mentioned this last episode.
I just came out with a kid's book.
It's called The ABCs of Being Happy and Healthy 26 Little Lessons for Kids Who Want to Grow Up to be Super Wonderful.
I wrote it for my kids.
I wrote it for your kids.
So if you've got a kid in that six to 12 age range and you like Chasing Excellence, I think this book will be right up your alley.
So you can get it on Amazon.
It's called The ABCs of Being Happy and Healthy.
Are you ready, my friend?
Five questions.
Let's rock and roll.
Ready.
Thank you to Chase Club members for sending these over.
We're going to try to answer Chase Club questions once a month, just exclusively Chase Club questions.
So again, chasingexcellence.email.
This question.
The first one's from Jenny.
I recently finished peter attia's book outlive the science and art of longevity.
I've got a question about the zone 2 vo2 max training.
Attia recommends an hour a day, but i'm wondering if it still counts when that hour is broken up into 20 or 30 minute increments throughout the day I do a lot of walking.
I walk or hike a mile with one dog, put that dog away, then walk the next dog for a mile.
It's rare that I get to walk for an entire hour at once.
So I'm hoping these shorter sessions still count.
On average, I log 22,000 to 25,000 steps a day.
So I'd probably actually get two dogs.
Two dogs who don't like each other.
They won't walk together.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
So Jenny, I have some good news and some bad news.
Good news is walking is awesome and you're doing a great job getting a ton of it.
But in terms of zone two and VO2, they are two different things and your walking is doing neither of them.
So VO2max is specifically training for VO2max and you can train for VO2max through other endeavors, and zone two can be one of them, but specific VO2max training is at a high intensity.
The standard protocol is four minutes on, four minutes off, at a pace that, by the fourth one, it's very, very hard to hold.
So that's a real hard working effort.
That is closer to like running 800 meters all out with four minute breaks, four times through.
Zone two training is, you're right, it is longer, it is lower intensity, but it's not walking.
Walking is zone one.
Walking is recovery.
So zone two training is basically how hard can you work while still maintaining a normal conversation?
Meaning if I was jogging right now, and if you can't see me, I'm pretending to be jogging right now, but I could still talk like this.
Once I have to take a couple of breaths, that's when we've gone into zone three.
So zone two is more than a walk.
It's more than a brisk walk.
It's light jogging.
So here's the good news and the bad news.
So you're not actually getting that component, but you're not doing nothing.
It is good.
Now, if you were to jog with your dog, I'm going to answer your question, assuming that you were doing two 30-minute sessions.
In that case, yes, for zero and two training, that long.
Think of zone two training as really starting to take effect when you get over the 20 minute mark.
Underneath 20 minutes of zone two training really isn't just doing a whole heck of a lot.
And zone two training by these elite athletes will last hours and hours and hours.
Three, four, five, up to six hours. phenomenal book.
I'd call it a book, but it's basically an ebook written by the guy that set the speed skating world record for the five and the 10K.
Yeah, you mentioned this before.
He biked for six hours a day, five days a week, indoor training, indoor on a stationary bike for six consecutive hours.
Five days a week.
Think of that.
Just sit on a bike.
That's really the challenge of zone two.
And this doesn't get talked enough.
Is for it to work, you need to do it for a long period of time.
Two 30-minute sessions of it. not worth doing at all?
No.
It's just not as effective as the long of it.
Because think of it in extremes.
What if you did 60 one-minute sessions?
With a minute between you, start to understand that as you fragment it and break it up, you don't get the same benefits of the long slow, steady state.
And that's a big part.
It's not stop and go, stop and go.
It's long slow, steady state, which is actually there's a lot of terms.
Zone two has become the popular term.
But when I was doing, it was called LSD, long, slow distance.
Right.
It's also called LSSS, long, slow, steady state.
There's other names for it as well.
And those actually become a little more descriptive, right?
Than zone two.
Because O2 goes, okay, just don't work hard.
Well, no, it's actually long, slow, steady state.
Okay, thank you, Jenny, for that question.
Next one's from Mar.
Do you ever slip up nutritionally?
I recently hosted a Friendsgiving, which left me with more carbs in the house than usual.
As a result, I haven't been eating as healthy as I typically aim to.
I'm reluctant to waste food, but I'm now discarding some items to get back on track.
I find myself feeling guilty for this lapse.
So no, I've never had nutrition let-ups.
I don't know how to help you.
Okay, next question.
Yeah, so next.
The answer is, of course, that there is, I have nutrition let-ups and I'm sure Patrick does as well.
So answering that portion of the question is yes, and I can relate.
Next one is in terms of a strategy. on how to get back on track.
Should you discard the excess that is there because you feel bad about wasting food?
The answer to that is going to be depends, right?
If you're on a tight budget or you live in a food desert you know what I mean where it's really hard to get fresh food, I would think about discarding it.
If you have... plenty of food available and you have means at your disposal.
And you're just doing it because you have this thing, that like, because you grew up and mom always said like, finish your plate.
And we got, oh, don't throw that out.
Put that in the back of the fridge. then I would get rid of it.
And the reason for that is you're burning up so much unnecessary mental energy and willpower fighting something that you don't need to fight.
It's the reason that we institute the practice with our kids about Halloween.
So on Halloween night, our kids go and they, oh my God, like they, I mean- They go to town.
They go to town, which is crazy.
And it's the experience of, it's a big part of it.
Like going to the next house, what do they get?
Go to the house, wow, more Reese's.
It's like, it's a really fun, We had the best Halloween we've ever had.
We went to a different neighborhood and I felt like it was in a movie.
Like all the parents were dressed up.
Everyone's walking a wagon.
They had these big elaborate, like big family things. in terms of costumes.
We went to a full haunted house with about 20 different rooms with live creatures.
It was awesome.
It was also a beautiful night.
Amazing Halloween.
And after we get back on Halloween, they can eat as much as they want when they're trick-or-treating.
It's a special day.
And they have as much as they want when we get home.
But the next morning when they wake up, the candy's gone. because of this reason, right?
It's exhausting as a parent to try to police candy in the house.
And say what you want.
Maybe that's not your belief system.
I believe that excess, which is what kids would go to, a piece a day here that not the end of the world, right.
But that's not, kids don't have that ability to regulate themselves.
So it would be a constant fight not to have them.
Two three four, five pieces and they're gonna bring it to lunch and they're gonna have a piece when they come home.
In order to not have that battle, we get rid of it the next day.
Experience it, have it, enjoy it, but then gone.
It's the difference between.
We talk about this a lot, but it's the difference between acute and chronic.
Acute, totally fine.
Like short, quick, intense, not a big deal.
It's when things become chronic that become issues.
Yeah.
I read into Mar's question.
The thing that sticks out to me, beyond everything you just said, is the almost insurmountable amount of guilt she's putting upon herself.
First, she feels guilty that there's still food in the house.
Then she feels guilty that she isn't throwing it away or is throwing it away.
It's just layered with so much guilt.
How often is guilt at the heart of some part of this?
That is really kind of stymieing whatever progress they're trying to make.
Maybe Mar, but maybe just in general.
I feel like a lot of people.
Guilt is the emotion that comes out of whatever's going on nutritionally for them.
I think that in terms of the nutrition conversation, you're so good to highlight that.
I think there's a number of different emotions that come up.
It could be guilt.
It could be shame.
It could be regrets.
It could be fear, right?
There's a lot of different things that come up in terms of the nutrition conversation.
It really goes into the understanding, And this came also from the book that we just finished reading in the book club.
I love how Arthur Brooks labels this emotions are simply a tap on the shoulder that something's not the way.
It just was right.
So if you feel that guilt, instead of just being like, and now what do I do?
And I'm like, I don't know what to, just like tap, tap, tap.
Hey, aka awareness, something's up.
And then, of course, the next step is like a level of curiosity.
Like, why do I feel that guilt?
And now you get to explore things, right?
And this is...
Because it might be guilt, but it also might be shame, right?
People eat something and then they're like, oh, maybe it's right.
Maybe it's or I'm ashamed of my body or I'm fearful that if I eat that I'm going to cause cancer or be fat this summer or not make it to the CrossFit Games, or whatever.
And I just, I see everything as that framework, right?
And that emotions being the opportunity, because everything happens so fast right, trigger subconscious thought emotion.
But emotion that's the tap on like hey yeah hey hey buddy, like something's up and if we can just go, and the example i give of this, a lot is i used to get.
So you know, I'm trying to give the right word, but frustrated I think would be when we were trying to go somewhere as a family and pack the car.
We're going skiing, or we're going to the Cape, or we're going to a kid's soccer game.
And I'm the type of person where it's just like, I put on a coat, I have my phone, I have my wallet.
I'm ready.
I have the car keys and I'm good.
Like that's it.
And almost the point, like if we're going away for a weekend, like that's kind of all I really need is that.
I would probably want to bring a toothbrush.
But I'm more of the case like, I don't want to spend the time doing all this stuff now.
I'd rather deal with it then.
And if I don't have something I don't want, like okay, but at least I didn't spend hours getting ready for something that I might not necessarily need.
That's just my default setting.
My wife is the exact polar opposite of that, which is, we're going to pack everything that we just might possibly, in some weird, strange circumstances, might want to have.
Yep.
Right.
And next beyond that is the next layer of it is.
I'm going to clean every square inch of the house before we leave.
That used to make me, there were very few things that triggered me.
My HRV is through the roof and I live a very calm, centered life.
That got me.
That was something.
I used to just go sit in the car and wait, fully acting as like oh my God, we can't help you from becoming your parents.
But when I started to explore this kind of sequencing of events, I started to understand, like whoa, That is an emotional change.
Like, okay, like don't just, you don't have to be a slave to that.
And the way Arthur Brooks lays it out, which I really really like, is if you were a construction company, a project manager and construction company, your job is to be as productive as you can right.
Like let's get this job done.
AKA, you are the project manager of your life.
Let's make this life as great as you possibly can.
Emotions are weather.
So if bad weather comes in to where it's raining really hard, what do you do?
Do you just go like, gosh, I wish it wasn't raining and just like complain all the time.
Like that doesn't help anything.
Do you close up shop and go, guys, we're not going to work today.
It's raining, right?
The answer is no.
You have a, you recognize it's raining and you readdress what you're going to do.
You're still going to do what you can with what you got.
But it's this, hey, there's weather, heads up guys.
So what we're going to do today instead to be as productive as we can.
That's the thing.
We got to move this project forward We're not going to just stop.
We're not just going to sit here and complain.
What I was doing was going in the car and sitting and telling storytelling, complaining to myself in my head, right.
I was like pouting.
It was like, whoa, okay, let's instead have another plan.
And what you could do is I would go back a few dominoes and go like, why?
Why? first off, why does this piss me off so much?
And you guys kind of realize like, oh my gosh, this is probably more a product of my upbringing, my environment, than I thought I was.
And the next is understand why Heather wants to do all those things.
And I really, really enjoy living... Heather's so neat and organized.
We don't have a thing on a counter.
It's like walking into a store.
Yeah, right.
So I really, really, really love that about her.
What I realized is that's when she does most of her cleaning.
That's when she has the greatest amount of organization, because she'll be like packing things up.
She'll be like, okay, we got to make sure we have hair ties for Harley.
She'll go grab hair ties and realize that there's a stapler in the drawer that's not supposed to be there.
So she'll go and move the stapler back to where it should be.
She moves the stapler and there's a stack of papers there.
She'll take the stack of papers out and go through them.
Meanwhile, there are kids... school projects that they did when they were in kindergarten.
And she starts going through those.
It's like, oh my.
But what I started to realize is like well, if this is on me, because I actually love that.
And if I kind of like if I could just chill and go, maybe find something else to do during that time, I can actually be productive.
I don't need to be the construction crew that just like throws their hands up.
I can go back a few notches. big divergence away from guilts and keeping food in the house.
But the idea behind that is awareness is our taps on the shoulder.
We can explore those and we don't need to be slaves to them.
They don't need to master us.
As he says as well, which I think the example is if someone abandons you As a kid, you have the right to be sad about that.
But if you're still bitter and angry about it four decades later, you know.
Not his words mine, but that's the equivalent of holding a hot coal and hoping that it hurts the other person.
We are not managing that project very well.
Yep.
So I really just love the emotions or taps on the shoulder.
Yep.
Love that too.
Cool.
Thank you, Mar.
Hope that was helpful.
We've got three more questions.
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Maybe not get it for somebody else, but ask somebody that's willing to give you a big gift for that.
It won't fit in your stocking, but it would be well worth getting it.
Okay, next question is from Gary.
Should we sleep during the day if our sleep is continually disrupted?
My Garmin watch shows that I typically quote unquote sleep for over eight hours, but I often experience disrupted night sleep due to having six kids pets, et cetera.
If I have the opportunity, yes, six kids.
If I have the opportunity to nap during the day, which also affects my night sleep, should I take it or should I aim for eight uninterrupted hours at night?
Instead, I've got two kids and I couldn't possibly take a nap.
How are you taking that?
How do you even have the opportunity to take a nap with six kids and pets?
My kids wouldn't let me take a nap.
Okay anyways, that's amazing.
Good for you, Gary.
Okay, but he asked two questions there yep, which is?
He starts off with a question basically, which says like, should I take a nap if I don't get eight hours sleep?
And the answer is yes, then he says that when he does take a nap the way I read it is actually it disrupts his sleep.
Yeah, so it also affects my night's sleep.
So, and then he says, should I strive for eight hours?
Yeah.
So the answer is yes, no, and yes.
The answer is yes.
Taking a nap is good.
That's the first one.
Taking a nap is good, but not if it disrupts that next night of sleep.
So yes, shoot first eight uninterrupted hours.
That's really the three-pronged approach to I feel like we did like the whole hero's journey in that.
But takeaway, if we can get it, we want the eight hours.
Yeah, you want the, so yes.
So you want the eight hours.
And everything else is a compensation, whatever that thing might be.
Correct.
But the ideal is, yeah.
Six hits, all right, good for you, Gary.
Next question's from Rodrigo.
I recently quit my gym after nine months of consistent resistance training five to six times a week.
I just couldn't afford it anymore.
I've been training at home for a couple of months with a squat rack, barbell and some weights, but I struggle with programming for all my fitness goals.
Since I started training consistently and following my diet, I've lost about 15 pounds of fat and gained 10 pounds of muscle in about wow, Rodrigo.
My goal is to get to 13 to 15 body fat.
It doesn't say what he's at, but that's his goal.
I do hypertrophy type training, but I also love CrossFit.
I want to create a training program that includes the principles you guys mentioned VO2 max, lactate threshold and anaerobic capacity.
However, I'm not sure how to incorporate these while maintaining my resistance training, which helps me keep or gain a little muscle while in a caloric deficit.
Well, Rigo, do I have the answer for you?
Yeah, you do.
So the training program that we laid out that you are excited about is the training methodology, philosophy and the way that we do it on CompTrain.
Yep.
So, regardless if you have 30 minutes to train, an hour or two hours to train, we give you that option every single day when you come into the app and it balances automatically across Strength hypertrophy Metcon VO2, aerobic capacity and so on.
So that is the way we structure that program.
So I mean, I could lay out a strength training program for you, but it would be what we talked about, which is what is in the app.
I'll do a couple.
But it is a very structured, thoughtful approach that will achieve exactly what you're looking for, which is I only have this limited equipment.
Regardless of the amount of time that you have, we can create that balance across losing weight, increasing muscle, maintaining strength and increasing your VO2.
I did a recent post on basically the well-rounded capacity I've had from following this program for a year.
This is maybe a not so well kept secret, but I didn't follow comp train for a long time because it was set up for games athletes.
Yeah.
And I wasn't trying to go to the game.
So I followed CF and E programming.
Yep.
Well, A year ago, we merged those two things to one single endeavor.
We still have a track for the competitive athletes, but really the intention and focus from my perspective went into people like Rodrigo, Patrick and Ben, which is how do we get all of those things together in a really sustainable way?
That's not about walking on your hands and squat, snatching 225 pounds and playing in rings and all of the rest.
And after following this for a year, I've matched my lifetime PR in a deadlift strength, took 21 minutes off of the Chad workout, which is an incredible test of overall work capacity.
And I got my VO2 max tested at Human Performance Health.
And I scored a 57, which actually wasn't even registered on.
It was off the chart in terms of it went above the 95th percentile in terms of there's elite performers.
And I was above that.
So I'm as strong as I've ever been.
I have the best work capacity I've ever had.
And I have VO2 max that is off the charts.
Also got my body fat done and I'm at 13, you know, which is basically as a 47 year old was also.
I didn't post that, but that's also off the chart.
I was, I'm actually blown away by this.
You know, when I posted that, about the majority of the comments were like way to go coach, consistency pays off.
It was about consistency.
No, it's not.
Because I've been doing this type of training six days a week for two decades.
Yeah, 20 years.
It's the program. which people go, can the program really make a big difference?
Of course it can.
If you're gonna do yoga seven days a week, you're not gonna get very strong, right?
If you're gonna do power lifting, seven days a week, you're not going to get very fit.
The programming has a huge influence on your capacity.
And when we take the time to intentionally lay out a framework and a structure across a year to ensure that we're getting what we want to do, which is big air quotes underline bold well-rounded, complete fitness.
This is what we end up with.
I can't believe that I am fitter at 47 than I was at 37.
And at, I mean, I wasn't like unfit at 31.
I was competing at the CrossFit games.
Yeah.
You know, so it's, so Rodrigo, I share that with some excitement because we got something for you.
We got exactly that thing for you.
Two things quickly.
One.
I'll get back to Rodrigo's question, but it's curious because I didn't scan through the comments on that post too much about consistency.
I think people respond to it as being consistent, because that's the thing that stands in the way of most people's ultimate progress.
They're not nearly as consistent as you bet.
And I think your point, and maybe this is a question, but I'll phrase it as a statement.
But I think your point is that once you get the consistency in line and that's no longer the barrier, that's no longer the thing holding you back, then it becomes well, what are you doing with that consistency?
What are you doing every single day?
And so it's not a surprise to me that people are like yeah consistency, because for most people like, getting into the gym six days a week is just like incredibly difficult and that's the thing that they believe truthfully, is the thing that's standing in the way of their progress.
It's a great observation.
The reason I like this question.
I wanted to bring it in from Rodrigo because there seems to be a little bit of a disconnect that maybe you can you spoke to it a little bit, but maybe we can speak to it more on the point which is.
I want to do this hypertrophy thing.
I want to get strong.
I want to keep doing my resistance training.
I also love CrossFit.
But in this thing that you laid out, I can't get stronger and I can't do this hypertrophy thing, because I'm also going to be doing all these Metcons and all these other things.
Either I have to really bias my training towards a barbell and strength and whatever, or I have to bias my training towards what we all classically thought of as CrossFit, which is just high intensity, six days a week until you can't breathe anymore right.
So there is to me still an interesting tension of the argument you're making, which is it's pulling at both ends of those things.
It's not an either or.
Absolutely, yeah.
And that's what...
It is really interesting, right?
Because that's what we've been... Rodrigo is not wrong.
He's been told this for... This is what exercise science books wrote about for up until...
10 years ago when CrossFit said, no, concurrent training works.
Concurrent training, meaning that you can get stronger, you can get fitter, you can get faster, you can run longer all together at the same time.
Before it said, no, you have to periodize.
And if you want to deadlift 500 pounds, you'll never run a five-minute mile.
It's like you pick one or the other.
And if that is what Rodrigo is leaning into a little bit, it's cool for you to pull that out because –.
We meaning that this community has dispelled that you can get both of those things to get the same time.
Here's that.
Maybe you know the fine print.
It doesn't happen as fast.
Which makes just so much sense.
If you're gonna put all your effort into getting as big as possible hypertrophy, you could get bigger faster, right?
If you want to get as fit as possible and you're going to do a bunch of assault bike intervals, you could do that faster if you didn't spend time trying to get huge.
If you're going to try to run a sub three hour marathon.
If you just ran, you could get to that end point faster.
We are not trying to get to one of those extremes faster.
We're trying to get all of those things to rise up together, not this kind of like whack-a-mole type thing, right?
Where one pops up and then okay, now I'm gonna go to this one, and that one goes back down and the other one pops up, and then it goes up.
We're gonna say which, by the way, it's not like it comes up, and then we're gonna get the other one to come.
It's like, they go back down.
And what we want to do is do this concurrent approach.
We're going to bring all of them up together.
It's a little bit slower. in terms of the each individual thing.
But in terms of the quote area under the curve, which is your fitness, it is the fastest way by a long shot.
And there's nothing close.
You actually can't even get very close the other way.
Love it.
Okay, Rodrigo, I hope that was helpful.
Last question we've got is from Sebastian.
I coach at a CrossFit box where we often have a packed schedule within an hour-long class.
We typically begin with strength, skill or weightlifting technique work, followed by a Metcon that can last up to 25 minutes, especially when running multiple heats.
This tight schedule leaves little room for community building or coaching on other aspects of the CrossFit methodology beyond exercise.
Given this setup, what would you recommend to help me, as a coach, foster a sense of community and expand my coaching beyond just the physical aspects?
Oh, I feel like these questions are set up.
So I have an answer for you as well.
Oh my God.
They're doing too much is the answer.
You can do those things.
So we've also, we have a product called CompTrain Gym, right?
Which is we do programming for gyms as well.
What you're trying to do is put 15 pounds of shit into a five pound bag.
You can't do it.
You can do those things together, but there's a limit to the length of the Metcon.
And the most that you can get away with in a Metcon while doing strength in the same class and still run an efficient class after us experimenting with this for 15 years, is 18 minutes.
That's the longest the Metcon can be.
Now, if you're going to have different movements in the strength in the Metcon, it actually needs to be substantially shorter than that, closer to about 10 to 12 minutes.
We like all of our Metcons, if they're going to be our strength day, to be in that 10 to 12 minute range, regardless of the difference of movements.
That allows you enough time to do the appropriate thing, which is you laid them out.
Get them warm specifically for the movements that they're about to do.
Teach them the skills of those movements.
Warm them up appropriately, meaning like building up in weights to those strength portions.
Then let them execute the actual lifts, three by five or whatever it might be.
Then explain and warm up and teach and get them ready for the specific conditioning piece.
All of those things, if you think about it, in four 15-minute increments.
You have 15 minutes to brief the workout.
Get them specifically warm and get them ready for the lift.
That's including like warming up with an empty barbell.
Then you have 15 minutes to do the strength portion.
That actually is enough time we found as long as they're warmed up with the barbell beforehand to get to platform, slap some weight on and build up to some heavies.
Then you have 15 minutes to transition them to the Metcon and then you have 15 minutes to execute the mechon.
Four times 15 minute breaks.
So I feel like the back half of this podcast last two questions is an accidental advertisement for Yeah, but that's that is.
The short answer though, is we know if it's this moment, in this moment, that needs to be a 12 minute workout?
If it's this moment, this moment, we could do it in 18.
So you don't have to do the work yourself if you don't want to.
I think what's interesting about that is you know what Sebastian's asking for is like.
Can you give me some tactics?
Can you give me some tips and tricks and how can I squeeze in some more?
No, no, no, no.
It's not squeeze more in.
The tactic is 12 minutes.
And you said you do 20 to 25.
Yeah, but that's what it is.
There aren't tactics to squeeze in a little bit more relationship building.
The tactic is to go five steps backwards and say you're trying to fit too much into this 60 minutes.
And until you fix that, everything else will be... an approximation of what you're hoping for.
You won't get there until you go all the way back to what is on the whiteboard, because that is where the problem ends up being for gyms like the one Sebastian's at.
There's just too much stuff trying to be done inside not enough time.
That's right.
Yeah, take it.
All right.
Thank you, everybody in the Chase Club.
We will do this again next month.
So get your questions ready.
Thank you, everybody else out there, for listening for your ratings, for your reviews, for sharing the show with your friends.
We appreciate it when we see it.
Ben and I will be back soon for a brand new episode of Chasing Excellence.
