Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable. Hello, welcome to Roundtable, where we serve up piping hot debates on the issues that sizzle in China and beyond.
I'm your only. Today, we continue our mini-series exploring the country's vibrant nightlife.
After visiting various tourist destinations, dazzling with neon lights and colorful foreign lintens, enjoying traditional and more than performances, or hitting the gym right after a long work day, you deserve a late night snack.
No matter if it's a barbecue on rope size or hot pot that opens throughout the entire evening, the late night food market is full of choices.
Roundtable invites you to dine with us and experience nighttime dining in China.
For today's show, I'm joined by Dingheng in the studio and Josh Cotterell on the line.
Now, grab your virtual compass and follow us to the heart of the discussion.
Ever wondered why food tastes better under the glow of neon lights?
I believe night-time dining is more than just a meal.
It is an experience. As the sun sets and the city lights up, a whole new culinary road awakens.
Let's explore the flavors and experiences that only come alive after dark.
So, I want to ask both of you, maybe starting with Josh, what is your best and worst night time dining or night time snack experience?
Best and worst. Okay. Well, I'll start with my best one.
I think my best one probably has to be in Beijing.
I'm Beijing and I think a lot of Asia in general really thrives with their food culture later on in the day as opposed to my own country where people may laugh about the quality of a British cuisine, but actually, I think that we do breakfast very well.
And I think that, if anything, that's where we thrive.
We put a lot of effort into it.
And then at night time, the food starts to slowly but very surely sort of get worse and worse, I think, or at least less nutritious and diverse.
So, but the best ones I think I have found in China and I've really enjoyed finding some, there was a wonderful search on restaurant and I won't name drop it right now simply because I can't remember the name.
But I ended up going there a lot after shows.
It was in the Gulo area and it would be open really late and it was just situated so close to a music venue that I would often play at.
And you know, the food was so cheap but there was just so much effort and sort of love and put into the food.
It was clean, it was quick, the menu was quite simple and we just went there maybe 30 or 40 times over the space of maybe a couple of years.
It was just so wonderful.
And I think that the thing that made it so good was the ingredients were really good.
And because it was all freshly made, they could very easily change the level of spice.
And because there was quite a lot of foreigners there, people had different levels that they could take, right?
And it was just no effort at all for them to change that.
And that was something quite new for me.
So yes, if you're in Gulo any time past midnight, just follow the smell of search on food and you'll probably find this place.
My worst experience probably has to be the Kabab shop that we all went to when I was at university.
I went to university in quite a small university town on the outskirts of London and there was like one Kabab shop in the whole university town.
And it was very expensive.
And I don't think the quality was very good.
And I think that it made us quite sick.
So again, we'll not name drop, but definitely worst experience.
Ah, so the good experience include quality food, get hygiene level and customized services when it comes to the level of spice.
And of course, the price should be reasonable.
And the bad ones hit all the boxes actually expensive, it's not tasty and it's bad quality food.
A lot making a lot of sense.
How about you, Ding-Hong?
What's your favorite experience?
And also the worst one you want to share with us?
Yeah, I would have preferred to talk more about my favorite memory.
You know, it's more like sitting in a restaurant within the second ring road here in Beijing, the downtown area with some ancient architecture and a nice restaurant featuring the Beijing style hot pot, you know, including lamb beef, cabbage, tofu.
Together with some Chinese liquor.
And especially when you are having it during a late night in autumn or winter or early spring, that will be fantastic.
Some of the worst memory, maybe having some cheap junk food or faster food because I don't have a pretty Thai schedule, etc, etc.
So I don't want to spend too much time talking about the worst experience.
Well, I'm not advocating for it for sure because it's not healthy and probably it's not even clean.
But I have to say, some of my best experience has something to do with junk food, barbecue food, and also fried chicken, fried vegetable.
I know it's not healthy, probably not hygiene.
It's a really good experience, really good opportunity for you to release all the stress.
You gotta release the first button, let lose a little bit and just enjoy the junk food.
But I know different people have different standards and looking for different things.
I was wondering for both of you actually what makes a good or at least up to standard nighttime eatery in your opinion.
Well, I think that definitely cleanliness in my own country, I think that nighttime eating goes hand in hand with another very common nighttime activity in the UK, which is to go out drinking to the pub or something like this.
And actually these kind of establishments in the UK, they have very, very strict opening and closing times, much earlier than in China, for example.
Most pubs will close on the weekend.
It's around 11, something like this and on a weekday it could be even earlier.
So after this, you know, if people want to stay out, which often people do, if there are on a weekend later than this time, they will go to what we'll call a takeaway shop or something like this or a cabab shop or a pizza shop or something like this.
And these places, because to be honest, people are often a little bit intoxicated or they're very happy and they've already let go of a lot of inhibitions.
The idea of nutrition isn't usually at the forefront of people's minds to put it lightly, right?
It's more about enjoyment and getting, you know, having a craving for something salty or oily or maybe even sugary.
And these establishments usually quench that thirst or I should say maybe I don't know if it's a thirst, that hunger rather.
And so then being a really good place, I think that it's kind of tricky because if it is oily, for example, and cababs and pizzas and burgers and French fries and stuff, are, that is, yeah, they are.
They are, but they have to be oily, right, in order to be like that.
But the one thing that they can be is clean, right?
So I think that this is the box that they can tick aside from being unhealthy, right, is that they can be clean.
So I think this is the most important thing at least in my own country.
And some of these places, to be honest, have been found to not be so clean.
And when that happens, this is when, you know, you could get food poisoning or you have very bad stomach issues for days afterwards.
You want the restaurants to take care of the consumers, even when they cannot do that for themselves a little bit in a certain sense.
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like in the case of the Chinese people, maybe a typical recipe for evening snack is like spicy crayfish.
Oh, yes, I love that. That has been popular evening snack across the country for at least more than one decades or even two decades.
Even when I was a middle school student, when I was a teenager, that was already popular enough.
It originated from central and eastern regions of China, like Hunan, Hubei, Jiangsu, etc.
Of course, they are also known as little lobster, right?
Yes. Xiao Longxia. And when they are cooked with a spicy sauce, they have a nickname called Ma Xiao, right?
Spicy little lobster. And beer is usually a necessity, right?
Yes. I would argue it's a necessity.
Arguably. But anyway, it will be a favorite beverage to pair with the Xiao Longxia.
And as we have a popular term here in China, Ma Xiao, Pei Pei Jiu, right?
And also barbecue is common.
It's not the western style of barbecue, but more like skewers, right?
And hot pot, hot pot is the originated from the southwestern Chinese regions like Chongqing and Sichuan, but nowadays you can find them almost everywhere in every place, in me to vegetable, whatever you like.
The strongly favored oily dish.
That's really have a very physical function of cherry new up late at night, but not that healthy to be honest.
So these are some of the examples there, you know?
Good night stands, good restaurants during nighttime, and it makes perfect sense.
Though you've listed a lot of different types of foods.
Actually, they kind of, in my opinion, belong to different category.
For example, when it comes to night snack, that's something that you would prefer having in a night time food market.
When you're walking a little bit, you want to get the kind of food that you can carry with you, you can walk and eat without queuing up for so long time and without having to sit down, but sometimes people would like to sit down for a while for that little snack.
And there's the other scenario that sometimes people would like to have a, basically a dinner party, especially in some hot pot places.
You want to have hot pot and talk over the hot pot, and it can last for three even for hours, you're chatting with your friends, having a little bit of fun time.
And also there is the late night breakfast.
That is the kind of situation one you have, for example, experienced or enjoyed a very nice performance or enjoyed a little time in a bar in a life house or in Josh's case.
Actually he might have just performed in a place and then would spend some time with these friends and a member in the band.
And in that occasion, maybe you would choose to have to spend some time in a late night breakfast place.
So these are different scenarios and all these different situations are actually thriving here in China.
You might already know this, but according to a recent report, there is this China Night Economy Vitality Index report, which was released by CMG.
According to the report, nighttime consumption revenues in China reached 1.5 trillion yuan, which is around $220 billion in 2023.
According to a survey report from the Ministry of Commerce, more than 60% of consumer expenditure in China occurs after dark, which makes perfect sense because during daytime, you're working.
And after working hours, you would go out and have some fun with your friends.
And that is totally vital for people's leisure time spending.
And that being said, we still see a lot of different choices when it comes to snacks in nighttime.
And this might be fun, not that useful information, but definitely fun.
That is, have you guys come across any special or even weird little night time snack or snack in general on the roadside?
I will give an example to start the bull rolling.
That is, I have tried fried stones.
I don't know if you guys have tried that.
What? I think it's maybe it's fried stones where you can also call it stir fried stones.
Stone stones. Stone stones.
You don't eat stones, but you taste the sauce and also the other ingredients including Chinese chives and also maybe some other, we call it, pate's, high-spiriting ingredients.
It's more for the taste.
So you taste the stone and you spit it out.
Hopefully no one would have to try it again.
That's one of the most weird and funny snack I've ever tried.
And that's the thing. Because on a street side or a roadside, you see these little stalls of little food snack shops and they travel along the market.
They do not really have a brick and mortar store and they are very innovative.
Do you have similar experiences?
No, no, not really. No, not a venture, huh?
How about you Josh? I mean there's many things that I find to be very strange and it's difficult for my palate to accept or enjoy.
Fried stones just sound a bit dangerous to me.
That could end up with me having no teeth.
But there's a lot of stuff that has surprised me.
Although having lived in China for over six years now, I think that I'm less and less shocked by what I see.
But I think that probably the first one, obviously when I first moved to China was chicken feet, this seemed quite strange to me.
I don't think this is necessarily just a nighttime snack though, right?
You could find these anywhere in all sorts of varieties.
But some of the things that I've seen at the night market, it's definitely fried insects.
Although insects as delicacies is rapidly becoming more popular all over the world, but I think that it was the first time that I'd seen some of them in person out in the night market with some of these fried insects like I think grasshoppers and sometimes scorpions.
I've seen some of those.
I don't think they're supposed to be quite good for you.
Yeah, they're supposed to be high in protein.
Rich, quite rich in protein.
Yeah, yeah, low fat. But yeah, when I was in Innan, I saw some of these in the night markets and I think that was quite unusual for me because I do see them in England.
Actually, according to a CGT report, the top 10 nighttime consumption cities in 2023 were Chengdu, Beijing, Shanghai, Chongqing, Hangzhou, Xinjiang, Changshan, and Zhengzhou, Wuhan, and Guangzhou.
These are the top 10 cities.
But I was wondering for the both of you, is there a city that stands out for you when it comes to night economy or night time snack?
Well, I feel like maybe Shanghai.
Shanghai is a city toward which, or about which I have a lot of memories growing up because my hometown was pretty close to Shanghai.
And I feel like this culture of evening time dining or night snack culture in Shanghai was quite something as early as the late 1990s.
And among the first-year cities, according to some consultancy data I have read about, 3.38 million people in Shanghai go out at night far higher than other first-year cities like Beijing, Guangzhou.
Maybe that's because Shanghai is more business-oriented compared to other cities.
I don't know. But in a bigger picture sense, I feel like in contemporary China, a night snack culture is really deepening in grain into our daily life.
This has really developed, handing hands with China's reform and opening, which is why Guangdong Province, arguably a pioneering province in reform and opening, saw the earliest developments of this culture.
And for one thing, because the reform and opening have brought more business opportunities, so imagine a situation where you successfully negotiate a business deal in the evening with a partner.
Then probably the best way to celebrate the deal is to go out together for some nice snacks and beer together.
And even for people who are not that busy with business deals, they still tend to pursue more entertainment and even because of the improvement of our materialistic life.
For example, a few friends getting together to play Magian together.
And after you finish, it's late night and you might feel a little hungry.
So nice snack is a natural choice under that kind of circumstances.
Usually my observation is that this culture is even more popular and visible in smaller cities because in smaller cities, friends getting together is actually easier.
So and growing up in a small city near Shanghai in Jodian Province in eastern China, I was an eyewitness of this culture from my childhood.
And as early as the 1990s, there was this booming culture in my hometown and all those barbecues, etc., etc., and Malatang, sold at nighttime vendor stores, nighttime marketplaces is really becoming a kind of integral part of my memory about childhood.
Yeah. And when you talk about night snack culture deeply rooted in Chinese society, actually, it dates back even before that.
Actually, we know that before the town dynasty and earlier, the curfew system was strictly enforced and pedestrians were prohibited from walking on the streets at night.
Yet during the zone dynasty, the curfew system gradually relaxed, allowing people and allowing various nighttime commercial activities to flourish.
We know the zone dynasty was an imperial dynasty of China that wrote from 960 to around 12 and 80 around that period.
So it's really, really a long time ago.
We have already started to have this night snack habit or culture.
And the funny thing is in addition to the substantial dishes like lamb or hot pot at that time, the fine food that people would have, actually people in zone dynasty could also enjoy a variety of snacks at the late night, or the late night food market, including dried fruit, scandered fruits, different types of buns, ice snow, which is a kind of dessert.
And these snacks saw significant development during the zone dynasty.
So we have the zone dynasty people to thank for the night snack culture.
And in 1998, Life Magazine published a special issue titled the Life Millenium, the 100 most important events and people of the past 1000 years.
And this issue includes a list of 100 events and people that the editors of Life Magazine believed had the most significant impact on human history over the last 1000 years.
And the zone dynasty restaurants and snacks were ranked 56th in that list.
So I'm very proud to include that little anecdote that I found very interesting and seeing the night market and night food market flourishing makes me very, very happy.
And we have to admit when it comes to food safety hygiene must be very, very important.
And when it comes to a food street or a food market, it is possible that these places would face multiple challenges, including how to make the business model more sustainable and also how to not disturb people surrounding around them, how to coexist with local residents.
So do we see such problems or challenges with these night food market?
Yeah, I think so. I think that at night, just generally, there's more concerns for things, for example, noise.
I think that with these kind of restaurants, and I know this is also an issue in my own country, these kind of areas are very noisy and loud, right?
And I think that because of this, there are safety concerns and also residents in that area, their standard of living is going to drop significantly, not just their standard of living, but the price of those houses as well, right?
Especially if new businesses suddenly come in and then it's noisy, the price of those houses could go up and down depending on how significant that area is, right?
But it's certainly going to be more difficult for those residences.
And I think that with that comes a lot of regulatory challenges as well for the local government and things like this, it's not only food hygiene standards, but when you have a larger volume of people congregating in those areas and moving around, it means that roads could get blocked.
It means that it could be more difficult for emergency services, for example, to get to certain areas.
It's quite difficult to monitor and all of that costs money as well.
It costs the local government money.
It means that maybe you have to employ more people, right, in order to manage those areas.
Well, it's a difficult question to deal with.
For example, in the case of those nice snacks, now we are primarily looking at issues like noises and a fire and smoke that are generated and really they need to be carefully dealt with.
And yeah, I have personally seen some local government authorities really putting a lot of resources in this regard, for example, in the city of Trufu in eastern Chinese province of Shandong, local regulators, the local market regulators have really earmarked a specific night working shift in order to strengthen inspections of these marketplaces and potential risks.
Actually, inspections in this regard is a very professional task involving how to clean, say, oil-fume purifiers in those stoves and ovens and how to impart knowledge on risk prevention to stone owners.
So it is not easy. And this seasonal nature of these business model is also true.
I feel like this is quite similar to other kind of, for example, if you open a homestay, hotel, business, and a mountainous area, you only have visitors for a business.
About six months during the year.
So for the rest of the year, you need to incentivize those business owners to seek all the kinds of job opportunities.
It's like they do for like for six months in a year, they do this job.
For the rest of the year, they do other jobs in order to make ants meet.
Yes. Well, as we've seen, nighttime dining is more than just a culinary adventure.
It's a vital part of the night economy, reflecting both economic strengths and cultural richness.
These late-night eateries contribute significantly to local businesses, create jobs, and attract tourists.
