The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on On Monday, we did Rollerball, which came out in 1975 and is one of the first great modern sports movies.
Brian Copland and I broke it down. You can listen to it. or watch it on the ringer movies youtube channel or on spotify Next Monday, we're doing a movie that came out 50 years after Rollerball.
I think this is the biggest disparity we've ever had between an old movie and a new movie, a 50 year difference.
We're doing Sinners. Best movie I saw this year.
I've seen it a bunch of times and cannot wait to talk about it.
So that's going to be on... Monday, stay tuned for that.
Spike Lee and I talked about that a little bit later, actually, when we did our interview.
So you can look forward to that. While we're talking about movies, Mission Accomplished, new narrative podcast that's going to be on the Big Picture podcast.
It's about the 2000s. the Bush years and a deeper dive into some of the films that came out right after.
America was going through 9-11 and a whole bunch of other stuff.
So that premiered August 12th. And you can check it out on the Big Picture Podcast.
On this podcast, Danny Kelly's coming in and we're going to talk about all the preseason NFL hype.
What do we believe? What do we not believe?
What are we actually even more excited about than the hype?
I told him 25 minutes and I think we went 50.
So a lot of NFL, a lot of NFL going on. Can't wait for it to come back.
We're getting close. And then Spike Lee for the second time ever.
He has a new movie coming out. And that is not what we spent the first half hour talking about because we had to catch up on a lot of basketball stuff.
He came over to the new studio and did it.
I'm getting back in the swing with these celebrity interviews.
I'm... trying to remember how to do them.
It's been so long. Once COVID happened, I hate interviewing people on Zoom.
We'd had this great run of interviews and 16, 17, 18, 19, and then COVID just stopped it.
But now I want to get back in the swing.
So Spike's helping me get my... by Chop Speck, but I had great time.
A lot of good stuff that came out of that too.
So this is a big action-backed podcast. One note, I will not have a podcast on Sunday unless there's some sort of major sports event or something.
But I'm probably not coming back until... middle of next week.
So just keep that one in mind. We're going to take a break.
We're going to do Pearl Jam and then Danny Kelly and then finally Spike Lee right after this.
All right, recording this late Wednesday, so if anything happens, don't blame us.
Danny Kelly is here. You can read him on TheRinger.com.
Listen to him on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show.
An excellent show. We'll be doing our little... four-person preview on this podcast a little later in August.
Danny Kelly, I was thinking about it. This is our 10th NFL season together.
Wow. Yeah, it is. That's right. Because The Ringer was June 2016.
And this is season number 10. So what was going on?
In September 2016, we still had Tom Brady.
Peyton Manning was gone. Rodgers was becoming the king.
The Seahawks were still relatively relevant, right? still a chance that they were going to kind of keep their dynasty alive, but it just didn't happen after that.
The Cowboys were getting a lot of hype and not coming through, which is just like now. deja vu.
Yeah. Um, man, we had all these quarterbacks.
We didn't really have yet. Like, uh, Josh Allen and Mahomes, none of those guys were on the radar yet.
We were wondering who the next wave was going to be.
Early on in my tenure at The Ringer, we did Cleveland Browns week.
I can't remember exactly what season it was.
Might have been that first season. Um, obviously that didn't pan out so well.
Um, we probably had a sponsor for it who left, who was like, I don't want to sponsor the segment about it.
Give us our money back. So it is officially preseason hype time.
You pointed this out. I said, hey, I need an NFL segment.
I want us to do something. And you're like, well, it's preseason hype season.
It's almost mid-August. This is when we overreact to stuff good and bad.
We're going to play a game called buy or sell.
Mm-hmm. So it's preseason hype. It's not just the good hype.
This is also the train wreck coming kind of hype.
It's all kinds of hype. What's your number one... pre-season hype either way that you've been like, huh, what's going on here?
So this is tough because there's a lot of really fun things.
I'm one of those sickos that likes to watch preseason football and get really into the nitty gritty.
The first one I want to bring up is the Bears offense.
The situation that's going on with the Bears offense.
I feel like there's Bears despair right now with camp.
And it's weird because at the same time, there's really good vibes with Ben Johnson.
Like that signing was electric and everything they've done from like.
The coaching point of view has been good, but I think all the reviews so far from camp and everything that you're seeing on Twitter and kind of just what's happening at practices, it feels like it's not going so well.
So I am officially selling Bears Despair.
I'm holding out. I still have hope. I still have faith that the Bears are going to be a pretty good offense.
It's gonna be a huge upgrade over what we saw last year.
So do you think this is a case of the offense is just way more elaborate than it was last year and it's the classic...
Everyone's just trying to figure out stuff.
Everybody's got way more jobs, 50 different plays than they had before.
And it's just super choppy. Yes. And I think the nice part, it's like one of those things where as As the season goes along, I think it's going to start to look a lot better.
I know Ben Johnson is sort of known for being very detail-oriented.
And to me, what that says is, Early on in training camp, he's going to be so focused on all those details that they're going to have to kind of keep going over it.
Yeah. getting all the motions correct, getting the snaps just how he wants it, getting everybody in the right place.
But I think that was kind of a... you know, that was a big part of the reason their offense just wasn't good last year is like guys aren't going into the right spot.
You got guys that are not fully bought in with with the offensive system or like whatever the coaching DJ Moore's walking off the field during a play.
You know, that was just kind of the type of stuff.
That to me was just like the biggest... of how terrible everything could have possibly gone.
Like, Caleb Williams is scrambling around and DJ Moore just walks off the field and I'm like, okay, that's...
That's the biggest indication this is just an absolute train wreck.
But if you go through, obviously, I think the Ben...
The Ben Johnson hiring to me is like one of the biggest hirings of this kind of era.
It has the potential to be kind of like that Sean McVay thing.
Obviously... We've seen guys with a ton of hype that don't end up being very good, and that could be the case with Ben Johnson.
But everything we've talked about for the last two or three years is Ben Johnson... genius play caller, genius play designer, play sequencer.
He's pulling out end arounds, hook and ladders, passing to tackles, passing to, um, having double passes, everything.
He has been more in his bag as a play caller than any other offensive play caller in the NFL over the last few years.
And so to me, that is a huge, huge upgrade. especially when you compare it to like Shane Waldron last year.
I mean, Shane Waldron has become kind of a butt of jokes. you know the thing that we always talk about on our show is there was an interview last offseason with Jackson Smith and Jigba and he was asked like what do you what do you think of the the Shane Waldron hiring for the Bears and Smith and Jigba was like,
Are we live here? Is this on? He's like, he's a good person.
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's a massive upgrade.
They've done a lot to work on their offensive line.
I saw PFF has the Bears going into this year as the fourth best offensive line.
That's a bit of an outlier, but I've seen Fantasy Points has them 15th, DraftShark has them 10th, FTN has them 12th.
So they're a... They have the potential to be a top half of the league offensive line if everybody kind of works out what that they brought in.
They drafted Colson Loveland. Luther Burden, year two of Roma Dunzey.
Hopefully he's healthy. I'm just kind of buying all the different ingredients here.
And I still have belief in Caleb Williams, even though obviously he looked terrible as a rookie.
Most of the time. I mean, he had some pretty good games, too.
But the lows... were just really concerning.
And so hopefully Ben Johnson can just eliminate some of those really, really bad games and kind of raise the floor for the whole offense.
You left out the Bill Simmons rankings, which I sent to you.
You're the only person I sent them to. Yeah.
I had... The top four, Denver, Buffalo, Philly, Tampa for offensive lines.
But the next tier, Indy, Atlanta, Minnesota, and Chicago.
Yeah. I think they're a top eight. If you just look at the amount of money they spent, the people they have, and the talent, the ages, it just...
And I defer to all the offensive line gurus, like Brandon Thorne, people like that.
And all of them are like, that line's going to be good.
The Chargers, I think I had... Potentially up there, but after the Slater thing, not happening.
So the Bears piece... It feels like it's going to be choppy.
I feel like we've seen this before in other NFL situations where it takes like a month And I have my eye on them as the second half.
I'm just trying to file this away for... from a betting standpoint, I think their over under is eight and a half, which to me feels a whiff low because if you're just going to pick pile on a, on a division, uh,
I think that's one of the divisions to look at.
And I think the other one would be the NFC West.
If you're like, there's a 40 plus win division sitting here in one of these conferences.
Yeah. NFC North and AFC West, I think, would be the two picks.
The problem for me with them... just like as I think of them big picture, is... some of the schedule stuff and all the night games, we get to week 13, they're playing a Friday night their week 16 is Saturday night, week 17, Sunday night football.
They play two other Monday night games. It's like for a team that wasn't good last year, They're being treated like they're a national TV thing, but they go Vikings first week of the season.
And that's the thing that really scares me.
Because I think there's a case for the Vikings defense to be the best defense this year.
If you're going to say... Who's the best defense this year?
And you're just listing candidates. Vikings, Texans are in there.
Steelers still have to be in there, even though I think they're going to slip off a little bit.
Is there anybody else you would even put in that conversation?
It's probably the Vikings in the number one spot.
I mean, yeah. For preseason. So they're playing them week one on Monday night, which makes me nervous.
This is going to... Yeah, and please... remember, I'm not saying week one, they're going to be a very good offense.
I think as the year goes on, we're going to start to see the Ben Johnson effect take hold.
I think it's going to be a tough one, that week one against the Vikings.
They're going to make Caleb Williams' life kind of hell.
Disguising shit. Oh, these guys are, no, now these guys are going.
It's going to be a nightmare. Yeah. That'll be our overreaction week one.
It's like, the Bears are dead. Caleb Williams' career is over.
And then that'll be like five and four after week 10.
Yeah. All right. I like that one. I'm going chalk with this first pick.
Mm-hmm. I saw my guy, Peter Schrager. I saw a clip of him on one of the ESPN shows because he's on a bunch of them now.
And he was doing this and I was laughing because I knew it was coming.
I wish I could have bet on this on FanDuel.
The Giants knew Abdul Carter was going to be good. they didn't know he was going to be this good.
Yeah. There's that's that this is the official week of holy shit.
This guy might already be one of the most impactful defensive guys in the league.
This was the devastation of the Patriots with the Joe Milton game, who of course plays his first preseason game for Dallas and stinks.
Right. And meanwhile, the one time he was able to put together three decent hours in a row cost us the number of picks.
I like Will Campbell. I'm happy for him.
But this Abdul Carter thing and the Giants having a real kind of frightening pass rush...
I don't know what it means, but it means something.
And it means there, at the very least, if you don't have your shit together offensively and maybe your left tackle's out, You can't block to begin with.
It's not a team I want to see. So have you been following the Carter hype train?
Cause I'm buying. Oh, a hundred percent.
I mean, this, This could be one of the best fronts in football.
Dexter Lawrence is probably the best defensive tackle or one of the best defensive tackles.
It's definitely one of the best. I thought when you started that sentence, I thought you were going to be one of the best fronts of the decade.
No, I'm not going that hard. But yeah, I think this is the type of team.
There's a couple of teams that are doing this right now.
The Jets are kind of trying to do this too.
It's like emulating the Eagles. Like the Eagles are...
The prototype there, the blueprint. If we have a really good defense with a ton of studs up front, Um, we can, you know, that can create things for the backend and then we can on offense, we can run the ball. and play a ball control offense and, you know, all that stuff.
And I think there's teams that are trying to kind of emulate that.
This is a very poor man's version of it, I think, for the Giants.
But, you know, I heard on the broadcast the other day that Jackson Dart models his game after Jalen Hurts.
And I'm like, I can kind of see what he's talking about in the sense that he's really good throwing deep.
He can hit those big plays. He can run around.
He can be a part of the run game. They had some design runs for him, you know, and.
Dayball is a guy that comes from coaching Josh Allen, so I think he's open to utilizing his quarterback in the run game.
Again, this is a very poor man's version of it.
And, you know, I wasn't like the hugest Jackson Dart fan, but I do.
One of my things I actually was going to bring is that I'm buying that the Giants are going to be kind of fun this year.
I don't know if they're going to be good, but they're going to be worth watching.
That defense is going to be really, you know, they're going to know where they got fucked.
Where's that? They should have an awesome schedule, right?
They, they sucked last year. They're playing the AFC West and the NFC North.
Those are the two you don't want. They're fourth place scheduled.
They're playing the Patriots, Vegas, and the Niners.
Like all of those teams might be good. We, yeah, we were trying to figure out when the best spot to bench Russell Wilson and bring Jackson darted in. this season is going to be.
And it's kind of tough because you got to go like midseason.
I mean, I guess maybe at Bears, you can't do...
Yeah, you can't do week five there. That's at New Orleans, because then after that, they get Philly, Denver, Philly, San Francisco.
I mean, that is like Philly on the road.
By the way, we, I forgot when we were talking best defenses, I forgot to mention Philly.
Hmm. I'd like to apologize to the defending champion Eagles and their fans.
And I forgot to mention the Broncos because that's the other team that I think could have a top three defense.
But... In the Giants case, at the very least, it's a team that if they're up 13-10... in the third quarter and they could just be like, Oh, you have to throw the ball now.
And they're just unleashing everybody. Um, We've seen teams that have awesome pass rushes.
It doesn't matter when you're down 20 to three.
Right. It's not who cares. But I agree with you.
I think they're going to be really fun on both sides of the ball, which is different than...
Basically every incarnation of the Giants for the last 10 years.
I know. Yeah, I give Heifetz crap all the time just because the Giants have been one of the worst... teams in the NFL like they score some of the fewest points fewest touchdowns they've just been pretty much awful since we started working together at the ringer so hopefully this year that changes and he can have a little little joy in his life from his team.
Well, listen, the Carter thing was a miracle that he got the third.
And that a team traded up to two and didn't take Carter.
And I don't know, maybe they were worried about the foot and...
But I'm just the Travis Hunter. That's great.
You can play both sides of the ball. You're going to be super exciting.
I get it. But if you're just starting from scratch, what are the things you need to be an awesome team? quarterback one, and probably somebody like Carter would be the number two thing you would want. just started from scratch.
So, um, well you, I went there, but then you pivoted it back to Jackson dart.
So I think I get to go again. Yeah. Okay.
Um, Josh Simmons, Casey having a left tackle.
Ooh, good one. Um, I've been reading a lot about this.
So they lost tuning because everyone's like, well, they have a left tackle that, well, you're still, you still lost tuning. so you can't say your offensive line is going to be dramatically better, but they will have a left tackle.
They get this guy. You're, you know, you're one of the focal points of our draft pod.
Somebody that would have been in the top 10 to 12 range if he doesn't get hurt, gets hurt, falls into the... you know, end of the first round, all the smart draft people were like, Oh shit, that might be a good pick.
If that guy can play next year. And guess what?
He can play. Um, Are you buying that combined with Rasheed Riceback? a healthy Pacheco.
Yep. We got Hollywood Brown back. Are you buying the Mahomes Assants as a fantasy guy or no?
I think so. I'm cautiously optimistic. Obviously, the problem is...
I'm a little nervous because they have such a good defense that they're just going to play the type of football that they've been playing the last couple of years, which is where they dominate defensively and they don't.
And they haven't been as explosive as they were early on in Mahomes' career.
In fact, if you look at Mahomes' numbers on deep passing last year, they were pretty horrific relative to what you'd expect from him.
It's awful. And then obviously Travis Kelsey, kind of a shell of what he used to be, but he's still a good player.
He's still going to create matchup problems on the inside.
I'm cautiously buying what the Chiefs are doing.
They've upgraded their offensive skill player group I was a Jalen Royals fan.
I think he could give them something while Rasheed Rice is suspended.
I think Xavier Worthy, he... showed last year that he can kind of play that receive rice role as well in terms of getting him opportunities to run after the catch crossing routes.
You can't catch up to him on crossing routes.
He will just run away from you and you know I thought he showed some things I still don't think he's like a complete receiver he's not going to win in contested catch situations or anything like that But, you know, then they'll get Rasheed Rice back at some point, either week four or week six, probably.
And he's looking like he's been pretty healthy.
So their offensive skill group will be a lot better.
Pacheco is going to give them a little bit of... you know, explosiveness on the ground.
They got Elijah Mitchell and Brashard Smith this year in free agency.
The problem last year, they had like one of the slowest run games I've ever seen.
You know, they're trotting cream hunt out there as like one of their main guys.
And he, you know, he doesn't have any explosiveness left.
He's a good tackle breaker, but. not scaring anybody.
So they have a little more explosiveness in the ground game.
And then, like you said, the Josh Simmons thing, I actually circled that.
I mocked Josh Simmons to the Chiefs, and of course it happened.
It's one of those things where it's just the perfect situation for them.
It sounds like he's healthy. His tape... was outstanding.
He didn't face a ton of really high-level competition early in the season, but I mean, he just... he looked like the best pass protecting left tackle in college football at that time.
Like he was just, it looked easy for him.
Yeah. So, you know, getting a left tackle at that spot, pretty incredible.
So if he can stay healthy, that's obviously a huge, huge boost for them.
So first three weeks, they're playing the Chargers in San Paolo.
God only knows what that field's going to be.
Eagles week two at home. And then at Giants week three.
And then Ravens week four. Dang. So no Rasheed Rice those first four weeks.
And I could see the same like, ah, Chiefs offense.
And then by midseason, though. They'll be going, you know, I did that.
You already knew that I had Alan as the top quarterback.
And of course, a lot of people were upset about that Mahomes. fans and Chiefs fans.
He was sixth in MVP last year. Sixth. He didn't even throw from 4,000 yards.
And then he didn't win the Super Bowl. And it's not like he was amazing in the playoff games.
I don't feel bad about it. I think Josh Allen right now in this moment, week to week from a durability standpoint and just everything you want, is still the best guy.
If I had to bet my life on a guy for one game, I would still bet on Mahomes, but that's not the exercise.
It's like, who would you rather have for an entire season And I just think Josh is the best guy for that question.
I don't feel bad about it. I know you probably disagree.
I mean, I think when you were talking, I was in my head thinking if I...
If my life depends on one guy executing a drive in the fourth quarter, I'm going with Mahomes.
So maybe that's why you go with that. But if...
If you're explicitly saying like the full season, like big picture, complete package, I can understand it.
But I still probably go with Mahomes. It's more of just like a lore and... confidence in him getting it done in the crunch time type of thing than anything.
I went back and I watched the fourth quarter of the Chiefs-Bills game And I think I blocked the Kincaid play out of my mind.
I forgot how amazing Allen was on that play to get that pass off.
And then if Kincaid catches it... it becomes this legendary Josh Allen comes through the bills.
Like you just think like, that's, that's why I think it's way closer.
It's a good argument. It's what, uh, you know, way closer than people think.
What do you have for the next hype thing?
Well, I'm surprised you haven't said this, so maybe I'm stealing it from you, but Travion Henderson as the new Jameer Gibbs, or insert any super exciting explosive electric... running back into that sentence.
The Travion Henderson buzz. To be fair. I was hoping and praying you would bring it up.
I was saving. I thought if it came from me, it wouldn't be as genuine.
I am buying this so hard. I'm buying it 100%.
Obviously, it's very early, but the fact that he took his first NFL touch 100 yards for a touchdown is like...
You kind of can't ignore that. The thing that I loved about him, going back to the draft, I actually had him I have him and Omar in Hampton right next to each other, but I had Henderson over Hampton just slightly because of some of the stuff he can do in the passing game and just the pure juice that he brings.
He's just so explosive. And the pass blocking, which was like, they've never had a guy who had speed like this, but could also pass block.
Yeah. And, you know, add in everything you heard about him at Ohio State was just like he is the. alpha he's the best guy everybody absolutely loves this guy so much in terms of just like the character and everything So I am so excited about what he can bring to this offense.
Obviously, explosive element you heard about.
I think today he had some 70-yard touchdown on a pass.
Second play of the... Yeah, the second... Like, I didn't...
Follow that. He's breaking plays left and right.
It's just, if he gets in the open, he's just gone.
I think it's like, Simultaneously, you can't buy in too much to the running back hype when it comes to the preseason because they're not hitting.
Sorry, when it comes to training camp and everything. because they're not hitting, they're not tackling as much.
But with him, it's passing game, and what they can do in him and with him in the passing game, vertical routes.
Like I've seen multiple highlights of him running down the sideline, whether it's wheel routes and vertical routes, um, I just think he's a really dynamic, big play creator and is going to give the Patriots the type of juice that they really do need on their offense.
Like, Like, who else gives them juice right now?
Kyle Williams is the other chance, and then Diggs if he comes back.
But they have way more speed than they had last year.
Yeah. And so, and I think just in the NFL, this in this area, you have to have explosive playmakers, um, especially in an era when teams are trying so hard to limit the big play.
This is the type of guy who can create big plays, who can, in theory... get teams to kind of load the box a little bit more because you start to threaten in the run game.
I still think that they're going to use Ramondre Stevenson quite a bit, but Trayvon Henderson...
As a complimentary, you know, the Jameer Gibbs, David Montgomery type of thing, I think he has some real potential.
And I... I'm like unabashedly all in on this hype right now.
I'm loving it. They've had no explosiveness, much like the Chiefs last year, where if you don't have a couple guys in the field who can scare you a little bit.
So this Henderson thing. If somebody stole my phone and looked at my text, they're basically all about Roman Anthony and Trevion Henderson.
Yeah, yeah. And whether Jason Tatum can come back by the All-Star break.
So you mentioned Gibbs. And it's first of all, Henderson, I think is still like 15 to one to be offensive rookie of the year on Fandle.
Hmm. Um, something like that. Maybe it's gone down a little bit from, from cause the hype has started.
But you mentioned Gibbs and it's like, man, it would be amazing if he could be Jameer Gibbs.
He's only been in the league two years, but they took him 12th.
And it was like, this is a weapon. This is this toy.
Here are Gibbs's stats. His first year, 182 rushes for 945 yards and 10 touchdowns rushing.
Then catching, he was 52 for 316 rushing. his longest catch and run was 20 yards.
Oh, that's surprising. If Henderson doesn't, I'm sorry, 24 yards.
If Henderson doesn't beat that, I'm going to be shocked.
Yeah. I think he can get... First of all, if he plays 17 games, if he stays on the field, which I think he can because he's one of those like short, all muscle, like he...
I think you can cuss somebody on Washington last week.
The guy put his head down. Yeah, he trucked a guy.
Bulldozed him. He trucked him. But it's like, could he get 50 to 60 yards a week rushing, but then in the passing game be like a 60-catch... but maybe like a 500 or 550 guy because he'll break two or three during the season.
And then if that's the case, not only are you in the offensive rookie of the year combo, but you're in like, could you be an RB2 for somebody in fantasy, which I actually think he can.
Oh, yeah. And the thing with him is they can pass block with a McDaniel or had some stealth quotes about him that did get recognized by the true Pats fans where he was comparing him to Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen,
James White, some of these third down backs.
And he was just like, he's just has way more juice than, and I love those guys, but he has way more juice than those guys had and can block.
So they've never really had anybody like this, but this is for what McDaniels does.
This is the kind of guy he loves. We've just never had a guy this talented in that spot.
So... I don't think you can do it. Not only am I buying the hype, I'll buy everyone else's hype.
If there's an island, I'm buying condos on it.
I'm ready to go. I am all in. And honestly, it's a miracle that he fell to 38.
It's a miracle because Cleveland had 36 and took his teammate. who's already gotten into trouble off the field.
But in the moment, people were like, whoa, they took...
It was honestly like a Nick Chubb's Sony Michelle situation where it's like, Ooh, you took the wrong guy from the college.
So it's to get that guy at 38 is a miracle.
I can't believe it. There was a lot of buzz that he was going to be a first rounder coming into the draft.
I think there was people taking the over on running backs in the first round.
Right. Chenty and whoever else it might have been, Travion or whoever.
Hampton. And Hampton. And... I think it's really just because he wasn't necessarily a quote-unquote full-time running back in college.
Maybe that was the difference that he fell a little bit.
I guess my question is, why couldn't he be?
Or maybe he could be like a... Could he be like a 17 carries a game guy plus a pass catch guy?
If he can block and he's just built like a fucking...
Like why couldn't he play? We have short running backs.
I mean, I don't know. I think he could.
I think the worry is he was banged up several times in college.
The wear and tear thing. Yeah, okay, I get it.
But yeah, I mean, overall, where do running backs really differentiate themselves?
I think big plays, passing game stuff, obviously breaking tackles.
I don't know if he's like a huge tackle breaker, but I think what he is is a...
He's a nobody touches him guy. Right. He's like, you know, the pursuit angle killer.
He gets past pursuit angles because he's so explosive.
And so... I think he has potential to be a really valuable player regardless of the position just because of what he can do and how he protects the quarterback.
You know, the first two picks were... The Patriots' first two picks were designed to help protect Drake May.
Will Campbell and Travion Henderson, both those guys...
We're going to protect Drake May. So I can see the logic.
I think it was, you know, great job by the Patriots, obviously.
Well, and then in the third round, they get a left guard.
So they actually had the semblance of... we can actually protect Drake May.
Now they need Drake May to protect himself and not, you know, take on seven guys.
Let's take a quick break and then we'll do the rest of the buy or sell guys.
All right, go ahead. You're up. Buy or sell?
I am buying the Tedaroa McMillan hype that we're seeing in the preseason here.
I'm surprised. I'm selling. I'll sell mine to you.
Okay. Okay, I'll buy it. I'm scooping up as many shares as I can.
I think he is exactly what... Bryce Young needs in terms of a true number one X receiver, a guy that can win in the short, middle, and deep areas.
Big body. And the important part is I think he does what he does for the rest of the skill group for the Panthers.
It's like a cascading effect where he's the true number one.
You got Adam Thielen, who is a Steely veteran.
He could be the number two. He's not, at this point in his career, he's not going to be a good number one.
Xavier Leguette, who they drafted in the first round, can be like an explosive after the catch playmaker kind of design, manufacture some touches for him.
He's not going to be a true number one type guy.
And then they have a couple other players Jalen Coker is getting some hype.
And it kind of just rounds out that receiver group.
I think Bryce Young can really... you know, continue what he did in the second half of last year, which was, I mean, one of the big storylines, obviously kind of flew into the radar because the Panthers were so bad.
But Bryce Young, being really good in the second half of the year.
Obviously, it could be a type of thing where it saves Panthers... franchise for the next five years.
We're going really good. How about... Can we just go with...
Good? Sure. Pretty good? You mean Bryce Young or just Ted McMillan?
Bryce Young. Like... Really good is. Yeah, I wouldn't put him in like the top 10 or anything like that.
But he was he was horrific to start his career.
He was not a bust. And then it was like, ah, Bryce Young, pretty good.
Yeah. I don't know what to expect from him this year.
Yeah. Why you out? Why you out? Big receivers, I feel like take a little bit of a while, especially as rookies.
And I just think they're counting on him too much.
I can't remember that many guys just coming in right away, built like him, who are just reliable, dominant, number one receivers for a team.
Like even DK when he came in, the other DK, DK Metcalf.
Right. who I think had a, if I remember correctly, a good rookie season, but he also was on a team that had other good receivers and, you know, they, they could kind of ease them in and, So that would be the only thing I worry about with him.
Yeah. I have a receiver I was going to throw at you.
Okay. As you know, one of my specialties is sniffing out the training camp quotes about people on a team when the quotes hit a certain level where you're like, Oh, this feels real.
And you can like Jaden Daniels was a good one last year.
If you read anything about Jaden Daniels in Washington last year, Every story, the way teammates talked about him, the way coaches talked about him, the media, the practices, it was like, shit, something's happening here.
I didn't have the balls to pick them to make the playoffs, but it was like clearly something special is happening with them.
Yeah, yeah. So there's a first round pick that's not Abdul Carter. that this is happening for and it's under the radar and I'll be interested to see if you can guess it.
I'll give you one guess. First round pick.
It's somebody you liked who went a tiny bit later than he was supposed to go.
And it's a receiver? See, now I'm giving you hints.
If I tell you that, you'll know who the answer is.
I was going to say Emeka Buka. That's the answer.
Yes. Yeah. Just Google people listening after you finish this.
Google Mekhi Agbuka Hype. and read all the stories.
In fact, there's one right here from Buccaneers where hype continues to rise for Buccaneers top pick.
But everyone's just like, this guy's awesome.
And it's very similar to the Brian Thomas Jr. last year, where from the moment he got to the Jaguars, people were like, this guy's awesome.
Yep. And the teammates are like, that guy's fucking awesome.
We did this drill today and he toasted nine people and he's just... So...
He might just be really good, which to me, I know Wirfs is out for a few weeks, but...
If Godwin can actually come back and be where he was before he got hurt and you have Mike Evans there still, but then you have this other guy who could be this year's BTJ for all we know.
Does that change how you think about the bucks at all?
Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gives them the boost that they need with, you know, worse being out and them losing Liam Cohen.
I think there's just question marks over what this offense is going to be like with those types of losses, but...
Everything that you've heard about Emeka Igbuka so far, like you said, it's just been they're not even asking people about him.
And like you got players talking about him like he's so, so great.
That's when you know. This happened with your guy, Russell Wilson, rookie year.
This is when I picked Seattle to... Make the Super Bowl because all the quotes were like, Russell Wilson, holy shit.
Yeah. This is unbelievable. I can't believe what he's doing.
And it feels like that's the case with Ibuka.
Well, and it reminds me, it's funny, like another Homer pick for me, it reminds me a lot of Doug Baldwin's first training camp. where Doug Baldwin, he was really under the radar, undrafted free agent, and so obviously it's a little bit different because Ibuka was a first-rounder, but... like immediately upon getting to training camp, everyone watching, because in those days you still can, you can just go watch Seahawks training camps.
And everyone knew immediately like this guy's making the team.
He's really good. He's probably the best receiver.
Because he was just toasting people every day, like a big play or two every day.
I think that's what's happening with Ibuka.
I mean, and it makes sense. He's like really experienced.
Great hands, really good route runner, really good blocker, high character.
He just has a really high floor and that was kind of what... I had ranked 13th overall in the draft, I think.
And people were kind of... Not quite sure.
Six, seven spots lower than that. Eight.
Yeah. Where do you go in the 20s? I don't remember off the top of my head exactly.
Because I remember he dropped because nobody needed a receiver for like six, seven picks was the reason why.
I remember my reaction to the pick was like, oh, that's kind of weird, actually.
I didn't expect the Buccaneers. They just, I think, re-signed Chris Godwin to a big contract.
Jalen McMillan last year was pretty good in the second half.
Well, the GM basically said like, This guy was the best guy on our board.
Like we didn't even really need a receiver, but we couldn't not take him.
So we took him. He was the 19th pick. But, you know, I think there was concerns that he... Number one, he's not like the most explosive guy.
So I think people have sort of a bias against...
First-round receivers should be super explosive.
How are we still doing that? It's so fucking stupid.
But he catches everything. You know, he's a big-bodied guy, really reliable.
I think Ohio State's all-time leading receiver, and that's on teams with Chris Alave, Garrett Wilson... like obviously he never led his team in receiving, but he, he was just so reliable year in and year out.
And, and, He kind of fell off a little bit because he had some injuries that his production suffered a little bit.
He's going to be on all my fantasy teams.
I love him. What do you have as your next one?
Thank you. I'm going with I'm selling the Jets Justin Fields experiment.
Speaking of Ohio State. Wow. Okay. I think for fantasy, it's going to be good.
So we have to delineate there because I think for fantasy, he's really exciting.
He's getting pushed up right now. He's I think I saw in one rank, he was QB 11.
So he's getting pushed up the ranks. Um, Well, cause you figure he, if he's 10 for 70 rushing every week, I mean, yeah, he's going to run the hell out of the ball.
Their offensive line is pretty good or it could be really good.
Um, But I mean, to me, Fields is one of those.
He's a classic story of highly drafted quarterback goes to a bad team.
You get stuck with multiple offensive coordinators throughout your first few years.
You get traded to... You know, and kind of it's just like it just never really happens.
And I think with him, I, you know, you remember I was really high on him.
I thought he was going to be a really good pro, but he just doesn't.
He just doesn't work quickly enough in the pocket, and I don't know if he can necessarily fix that.
I think there will be good games here and there, but overall...
I mean, if you look at some of the stats from last year when he was on the Steelers, 39% success rate, which was 36th out of 39 quarterbacks that qualified, uh, 12% sack rate, which was dead last.
45% pressure rate, which was dead last among those 39 quarterbacks.
He just takes too many sacks. He doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough.
And I don't feel like when you're down 10 with him in the fourth quarter, the game's over.
That's what I was going to say next is basically like they have to have the game script. that's kind of just perfect for what he does.
And so, um, if you're up 13 to six, um, With 10 minutes left, it's great.
Run, run, run, play action. Then you're okay with them.
So I'm in on I'm in on the fantasy portion of it.
But and I don't know if anyone's really that excited.
But this last preseason game, like he looked pretty there was some exciting plays and he ran in for a touchdown.
So yeah. I'm trying not to let myself get too excited about the Justin Fields thing because I bought into the Fields stuff earlier in his career and I don't want to fall for it again.
I've test drove the Jets over. What is it at right now?
It's low. I think it's five and a half. Yeah.
Their schedule's pretty hard. Especially if the Dolphins end up being good, which I don't think they will be.
But... I think the Pats are going to be better and the Bills are in there.
But I can't get there. I think they'll have two upsets during this season.
Where they run the ball really well, they have a lead, they don't have a turnover, and they... Right.
I could see them being a tease buster, but...
I'm with you on fields. I just thought it was too hard for him.
When you actually need your quarterback to move the ball down the field and throw the ball, I just don't think he can do it.
Also, they don't have any receivers after Garrett Wilson.
I mean, their number two right now is, I think, Josh Reynolds.
Yeah. You know, they have a rookie rookie tight end.
You can't you can't expect a rookie tight end to elevate an offense.
It rarely happens. I mean, Brock Bowers is a special, special player.
I think it's going to happen with Tyler Warren a little bit on the Colts.
I'm happy to throw in there on the hype list.
Do that. Let's do that. I just think he should have been the first tight end.
I like that he didn't go first because now he's got the chip on the shoulder that he didn't go first.
Yeah, yeah. They actually really need him.
Um, they have two quarterbacks that I don't trust with wide receivers at all.
And there are probably going to be thrown in the ball anyway.
So I just, he's jumping out to me as, um, you know, Bowers is above everybody and then Kittle.
But then if you go into that next tier, Like, am I going to pay $15 for whoever and I can try to get this guy instead at four or five?
Like, I'm just going to do that. How surprised are you going to be if he's the top receiver on that team this year?
He might be. Pittman broke his back last year and he's like, yeah, I don't trust him. it's hard to trust him.
Josh Downs, I think he's a really good player, but who knows what's going on with this quarterback situation.
I think that they're going to scheme up like, three to four plays a game for Tyler Warman.
And that's like his floor, you know, in the sense where you're doing screens.
RPOs, maybe even get him in the backfield a little bit.
He did that a ton actually at Penn State.
I don't know if they'll do that in the NFL when you have Jonathan Taylor back there too, but Get creative with what he can bring as a run-off-the-catch guy.
And he's kind of in that... I don't think he's the level of... you know, like player that George Kittle is clearly at this point in his career, but he brings, they run off the catchability.
I think that's like reminiscent of Kittle where he's just trucking dudes, jumping over them, stiff arm ring on things like that.
Um, I love them in the draft. Like he was too high for the Pats to take it for, uh, But if they had traded back a couple spots and taken him, I wouldn't have been furious about it.
I couldn't believe he fell to 14. Right.
I just, there's no way he was not one of the best 13 guys in the draft.
So we'll see. And the Loveland, I don't know, that seemed to be more of a higher ceiling pick, but Warren seems really, really good to me.
Was that you or me? Who's up? You? That was you.
Oh, you're up. Let's see. I'm saving my big one for last.
I feel very torn on this, so I'm just going to send it.
I'm buying the Jags Revival. Uh, with Liam Cohen, Liam Cohen.
How can you do this? Yeah. There's no... There's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they'll be bad again, right?
Um... No, I mean, obviously, this goes against my better judgment.
We do this every year, I feel like. Yeah.
But I don't know. The Travis Hunter being able to play on both sides of the ball, I think that will make an impact.
I don't know if he's going to be, you know, a massive, massive impact year one on both sides of the ball.
I think the Liam Cohen thing is really what I'm excited about the most, though, like getting a coherent offense. getting Trevor Lawrence into his groove, hopefully a little bit, where he's not making these ill-advised throws and doing the kinds of things that he's done the last couple of years.
We were doing so well. The other thing here that I will say, and I think this does matter, is they have the sixth easiest schedule for Warren Sharpe.
So they're in a bad division with a good play calling new head coach.
Get that bump. Brian Thomas Jr., explosive playmaker.
Travis Hunter, another explosive playmaker.
God, why am I doing this? I don't know why I'm doing this, but I am.
You should know since you had a shitty offensive line last year on your favorite team, the Seattle Seahawks.
Hey, they won 10 games. Yeah, but you had a way better all-around team.
Their line's going to be... The combo of... the offensive line in Lawrence.
Why, why am I going to feel good about that?
Not to mention, do you, the, the Travis Etienne and, uh, Who's the other dude?
I'm blanking. Bigsby, like they still haven't figured that out.
People are trying to get us to get the Travis comeback year.
No thanks. Had him last year for like 30 bucks.
The only case for them, because I did look at this, because it's like, I'm...
And I'm going to spend the next week trying to figure out who I settle on here for the out of nowhere team.
Last year I had Pittsburgh and I nailed it.
Everyone was off Pittsburgh. Everyone had them third place in the 500 team.
And I was trying to figure out who is the out of nowhere playoff team.
Because we have all the ones people always talk about.
Could Jacksonville be the team? The case would be the first three weeks. where they're home for the Panthers.
They're at Cincinnati, who always starts out slow.
And then like an upset against Houston. Yeah.
And now they're playing at San Francisco in week four.
McCaffrey's already hurt. And now it's like the Jaguars are 4-0.
Oh, my God. Yeah. Travis Hunter, what a trade.
And so I was trying to play it out in my head and I just, I can't get there, but they have their third place schedule. which means they get the Jets, Bengals, and Panthers, which I don't mind.
But they do have to play the AFC West and then the NFC West, who...
We'll see if they're any good, but... I can't quite get there with Lawrence.
Lawrence to me is like, you're going to have to shock me and prove that you're actually good again.
But yeah, I don't know. I respect the hype.
So I'm buying it. You're selling it. Can we just do McCaffrey quick?
Cause it's a blind sell for me. People are trying to hype me back.
Don't be surprised if he's the number one fantasy guy again.
Guess what? I'm going to be surprised. The guy's...
Cannot stay in the field. He's older. And I just don't see it.
And I think it's the worst kind of fantasy guy to have because you're spending... you're not spending $60 anymore, but you're still in the 40s.
Maybe you're even in a bidding war with your drunk buddy and now I'm up to 49.
And I really want them. And now, oh, fuck, now I'm paying 50.
And then two weeks in, it's like, I'm having...
I have my Achilles, it's starting to feel tight now and I got the red flag.
Oh no, McCaffrey has the red flag. What happened?
Oh, tendonitis. Oh no, he's going to play.
Nope, he's not playing. Oh, he's out. Whoop, he's going to see a specialist.
I'm out. I'm not doing it. No, thank you.
He's going to Germany to do some stuff. Yeah, I'm out.
I'm out. We've all been there with him and no thank you anymore.
I think the only argument, the counter to that is when he's on the field, he has been the best.
You feel great. He's the best fantasy player of this generation, right?
But this begs the question, is it better... to not have that at all in your life or to have tasted it.
And then it gets pulled away when they get red flagged.
You're like, oh man, I had those three weeks of McCaffrey.
And it was so great. I'd almost rather not know what it feels like.
I totally understand what you're saying, though.
I think it's tough. Ultimately, you don't want to... you're not trying to get seventh place in your league.
You're trying to get first place. And so this was your, this was your debit, your HN.
Yeah. Last year, this was your theory on this.
Go for the gusto. Yeah. But I will say...
McCaffrey and Shanahan lied to our faces last year about like...
What he was going to be in, which obviously, whatever, that's their prerogative.
But from a fantasy point of view, it's easier to do this when coaches and players are honest. about kind of like where they are.
So I don't trust that team. And then the worst part, and this is something I experienced is, trying to figure out the handcuff situation to McCaffrey.
Like with a lot of players, it's like, Oh, if I, if I get, this guy, I'll just grab his backup.
And then that way I'm insured against this injury or whatever.
I could still get this team's run game. But now you're spending $7 on his backup.
Yeah, but the end, the 49ers are the most cursed team I've ever seen in my life when it comes to running back injuries.
Every one of their running backs just constantly gets hurt.
So you're like playing whack-a-mole. trying to figure out who to play week in and week out.
Is it Isaac Garendo? Is it Jordan James?
Is it Jeff Wilson, who I think they just re-signed?
It's like, And then who knows who's going to be in Shanahan's doghouse this week.
So I think it's... Obviously, the upside of hitting on McCaffrey and getting the... He's literally... like an RB1 and a wide receiver two or three in one spot in your roster, which is immensely valuable.
So the upside is worth, I think, worth betting on, but it's going to be a miserable experience for you.
You're going to probably... Every time a little red cross is next to his name on the app, it's just going to stress you out.
So it just depends on how much risk you want to take on.
The problem is there's no value for it because you're overpaying while being worried about the red flag, which is the worst place to be in fantasy.
Yeah. Let's do a couple quick ones. But before we do that, I just want to say Shador is off the table.
Okay. We're not talking about it or what?
Who knows? I'm rooting for it. It would be fun if the Browns had a good QB, but the people going nuts about week one preseason, like...
It's fine just to not have an opinion sometimes.
It's like, that's cool. He wasn't a disaster.
Right. Okay. It doesn't mean anything. You know, I don't know.
I hope it happens for him. I'm in the camp of, I thought he should have gone in the first two rounds.
It's hard for me to believe he's not a starter.
It's hard for me to believe New Orleans couldn't have used him.
But I'm not going to be like, well, see what he did in week one preseason.
Like, just stop. yeah also it's funny because the only reason he started that game is several three guys got hurt right it was just like man so what's your next one I actually just want to get your take on this.
I'm selling the Aaron Rodgers Steelers thing, but I want to know what you think about it.
Oh, not only have I sold it. I knocked down the house.
I not only did I sell the house, I knocked it down for the new owner.
I couldn't be more out. She'll made the key point.
Brady's the only one over 42 who even played 10 games.
I thought Rogers sucked last year. I don't think he wants to get hit anymore.
I don't love their offensive line. I don't think the team, I'm very nervous about that team in general.
And I think it would be shocking if he was good in the Steelers.
With all the evidence we have following football, For him, for what we saw last year, to him all of a sudden being good for the Steelers and them going 12 and five, like honestly, what are the odds in that?
Like seven to one? 8-1? He's just going to be good?
He's going to like getting hit again? Last year was an aberration?
I will say there's like, and I'm completely with you on this, but there are, I've seen stories and I've listened and I've heard a few on podcasts like Aaron Rodgers kind of feels like a different guy this year.
You know, he's coming there and like all his teammates love him, all this stuff.
And I'm just like, I don't know. It's over.
He's 42. It's over. Even if you lose like a split second of your reaction time on stuff...
Combined with that, the lower half of his body had this traumatic injury that it would be one thing if he was 27, but he's got a repaired Achilles.
He's 42. Yeah. He's not the biggest guy in the world.
Him and DK Metcalf is a very funny combo too.
Like from a... schematic and stylistic.
How about him and Tomlin? What about the first time he says something stupid?
Or Arthur Smith? Yeah. I just think there's so many ways to go wrong.
I'll give you my last one. All right. I've already talked about that multiple times in the pod.
To my horror, I was listening to the Ringer Gambling Show, the excellent East Coast bias show, as they did the AFC West. and all three of them got excited about this team.
And it feels like there's too many people on the bandwagon.
I'm getting nervous, but the Broncos were my favorite team.
Uh, I actually think they're underrated.
I think they are a live chance for them to buy the, to win the AFC West.
Um, I just think they're going to be really good.
I think they're an actual contender. I really think that.
And now it feels like people are coming on the bandwagon because nobody can figure out another, another team.
That's like this year's basically lions of like, oh, this team was good last year.
Now they're going to be this. and they're the most obvious candidate.
Then Slater goes down for the Chargers. And you're like, well, there's another reason the Broncos are going to be better than the Chargers.
And now I'm worried it looks too obvious.
So I'm not selling the hype. I just wish that, I wish I could calm down the hype.
I wish I could create like a fake news story to get people out the scent.
Like, hey, Bo Nix. Might not be able to start the season.
Mystery injury. I almost want to throw people off the scent.
I yeah, I've the contrarian in me that like the the Broncos hype.
That is like maybe the top one where I'm just like the contrarian in me for whatever reason.
Everybody's one is that. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Like everybody loves the Broncos and I have kind of a long running bit of I'm anti Sean Payton, but that's like fantasy wise.
Like he's actually a good. He's a good real-life coach.
He just annoys me in fantasy because he, you know, platoons every position and it's really hard to guess, like, whoever he's going to like that week.
But... I don't know. To me, it's just, you know, we saw CJ Stroud have a huge slump in his second year as teams start to kind of figure out what your fastball is and some of the best things that you're doing.
I don't think... I'm not fading Knicks by any means, but I think there's a chance... he could be a little worse than he was as a rookie, and that wouldn't be super surprising.
Their defense obviously is really good. Way harder to schedule.
Yeah, really hard schedule. Their defense, I mean, their defense is great, but with everything, you know, how healthy can they stay?
Can they continue to do what they're doing? and then, you know, I think defense is harder to predict year in and year out.
Like, it's less consistent year in and year out.
So... I don't know. To me, I'm like, I don't have a real argument against the Broncos, but the contrarian in me, it's just like that...
That's like the bells are going off. Like everybody loves the Broncos this year.
And so like, that's just kind of my reaction to it.
They check the most boxes I've seen for a leap team in a while, including week one, home, Tennessee Titans.
Week two, at the Colts, who are already probably changed QBs.
Right. Week three, at the Chargers. Week four, home Bengals, Monday night.
Mm. And then week five at Eagles, which could be a 4-0 against 4-0.
I'm already ready for it. I like it too much.
I want it to calm down. I need to like...
And if this is a relationship in college, I want them to like be mean to me for a day.
So I don't like them as much. Right. your spidey sense is tingling right now.
I think you're, you're feeling the, you, you want to say too many checks, too many check marks.
Um, And I was trying to think what another Zag team would be because we do this every year.
And that's what I'm going to try to figure out.
Is it going to be bad that we'll be good or the vice versa? that there's always a team.
There's always a team. It's going to be like the Giants.
I'm not saying it's going to be the Giants.
Right. That's what I really want to figure out.
Who is the team everyone thinks is going to be shitty?
I'm telling you they're going to make the playoffs.
Last year was Washington. Even the Patriots, I think people are expecting they're going to be pretty good.
It's a team like the Panthers. Yeah. No, because I think there's cases for Falcons.
It's like Panthers, Jags, Giants. The Titans.
The Titans is a great one. The Titans is the one.
Vegas, the Jets. It's those kind of teams.
One of them is going to make the playoffs.
Just how the league goes. Not the Browns.
Not the Browns. I've crossed off the Browns and the Saints all over the place.
Those are my two cross-off... I think, you know what?
I'm not saying the Saints are going to win the division, but the Saints have been my... surprisingly competent team because just everyone like for whatever reason, again, it's a contrarian thing where everyone says the Saints are going to suck.
Everyone thinks the Saints are. It's like a fact.
The Saints suck. And that's the way that we've talked about them this offseason.
And for whatever reason, that just, you know, it like ignites my contrarian-ness.
And I just want, like the Saints, for whatever reason, they always kind of figure out a way to be competitive. especially in that division.
The quarterback situation is obviously very concerning.
But, you know, I don't know. Maybe Kellen Moore goes in there and they kind of just run this... funky offense that people don't know what to do with and they eke out some wins.
Are we even sure Calamore is good? No. To me, like the QB coach combo, which is the easiest way to figure all this stuff out.
Right. They've got to be one of the lowest.
Even the Browns, because Stefanski's better than Kellen Moore, even they might have a higher number I'm not saying it makes any sense.
It just, that's the team that I've been contrarian on because it just feels like everyone is stating as a fact that the Saints are awful.
Well, there's one thing I have noticed. The people covering the team are talking about how it's way more professional this year.
We are going from Dennis Allen And whoever the guy was that Cam Jordan annihilated on the podcast.
You see that? But the defensive line coach, it was the worst coach he's ever had.
Oh my gosh. No, I didn't see that. But anyway, their over is five and a half and it's already plus 125.
The last thing and then we'll go because I already kept you a half hour longer than I thought we were going to go.
I think Seattle is in the mix for a, I didn't realize that they were going to be good because you think last year they hit their draft a year ago, as you know.
Yeah. The reasons people are off the scent this year are basically like they downgraded at Receiver.
And they changed QBs. You could argue Darnold's better than Geno Smith.
In fact, I'll make the argument right now.
It's year two McDonald's. They had another good draft.
And they're in a division that I'm not sure anyone in the division is good because this Matthew Stafford, who...
Matthew Stafford wasn't that good for most of the season last year and then got better as it went along and then was really good in the playoff game.
But for the Entirety of the season, we were wondering what was going on with him.
The Niners, who knows? I don't like Arizona at all.
And could Seattle just be like, oh shit, I guess it's Seattle.
Their odds are... They're plus 550 for the division.
That's crazy. Nobody should have odds like that in that division.
I mean, they almost won the division last year.
Yeah. So I think logically and on paper...
I would say they downgraded going from Gino Smith and DK Metcalf to Sam Darnold and Cooper Cupp.
No question. However... The scheme, the change in scheme is like the big X factor for the Seahawks this year.
It could be a force multiplier for them on offense because they're going from what was one of the past heaviest offenses in the NFL last year in terms of expected pass rate.
Two, I'm sure they're going to run the hell out of the ball this year.
That's why they brought Clint Kubiak in, this wide zone offense.
I think in theory it fits Kenneth Walker really well.
It could help their offensive line. um, start to get some continuity in terms of like they, they drafted gray's able, he's got rave reviews out of training camp and he looked good in his first preseason game.
Um, looks like Abraham Lucas, their right tackle is going to be right now.
He's like looking like he will be healthy and able to start Charles, Charles cross, um, can be a good left tackle.
I think there's some pieces there that they're working with that could emerge on the offensive line to make it a not bottom five unit, which is kind of what they've been the last few years.
Yeah, I had you as a minus one before the season, but I might take the minus one off.
Because the offensive line people seem to think, eh, it might be actually fairly competent.
It's like a scheme thing. Can the scheme hide some of the rewards that they had last year in terms of like... maybe this just works better where they're attacking, running the football, you know, all that stuff.
And then defensively, I'm trying hard not to buy too much into the hype because this is another one that's gotten tons of press around where I live it's like the Seahawks could have a top five defense like a lot of people a lot of smart people who know what they're talking about are looking at this scheme with Mike McDonald and some of the talent they've amassed on defense.
Well, you have two big motherfuckers in the middle. that maybe five teams have two guys like that.
I mean, Leonard Williams was one of the most unsung... elite players I think last year on defense and then Byron Murphy they drafted last year in the first round and I think he had a good rookie season could have a really good you know second season and He got hurt and he played hurt.
I think so. Yeah. And he was one of my favorite players coming in.
I like him. I think the Seattle defense and the Pats defense are very similar for me in that I actually think the ceiling of each defense could be top five.
Yeah. Especially because your secondary is really good.
Yeah. I mean, they have so much talent in their secondary.
Yeah. Devin Witherspoon, another draft pick from a couple years ago.
Um, so I dunno, they, they have the pieces.
I think like you could make an argument.
Certainly this year. The other one I wanted to bring up was Tori Hart.
And this is like too much of a deep cut.
But their fifth round receiver is another one of those guys that's in the category of just making two or three big plays every day.
You got to send me some of the quotes. You keep hearing everything about him, man.
Maybe I'll sleuth it tonight. I want to find for myself.
Look up Torrey Horton. And look, I'm obviously in the Seahawks text thread. you know, streets where it's people really into the Seahawks.
But I mean, I got so many messages and texts about Tory Horton when they drafted him.
When the Seahawks drafted him, they were like, This guy is so much better than a fifth rounder.
You're going to love this guy. He was my favorite player at Colorado State You know, I got a ton of people telling me this, like, you're going to love this guy.
And then everything that we've seen since then is like, he's been really good at practice.
He had a couple of big catches in this last game. in the preseason game.
So, I don't know. Again, this is, like, way too deep cut for probably the national side of things, but...
People are really excited about Tori Horton here in Seahawks land.
Pat's excitement, Seattle excitement. We're back, Danny Kelly.
Yeah. Thanks for hyping it up with me. Good to see you.
And don't forget, Ringer Fantasy. So what...
When's the big, we're doing our draft on August 25th.
Yeah, I think it's in a couple of weeks here.
Yeah, we're less than two weeks away. Yeah, August 25th.
All right. I'm going to be in LA soon. Yeah, I'll see you in LA.
All right. Thanks, Danny Kelly. Thank you.
Boston, New York, New York boss. All right, let's go.
Also, I'd like to say thank you for having me on and let's have some fun.
Yeah, you do the intro for me. I don't even do that.
I wore my Celtic shirt. We're a little wounded these days.
I got the car. Well, you made this movie.
You put like 17 slanderous Boston things in there.
Eh, maybe 15. Nine? Rick Fox took a Larry Bird shot.
He played with Larry Bird. Author liked to say, Quick story.
Yeah. I've done several commercials for and one of these spots.
Yeah. It's Larry Bird. Which one? McDonald's?
I do it with Sam and Magic, you know, and Charles.
Oh, the bank ones. Yeah, yeah. And so...
I was really scared. Larry Bird. I mean, if you saw any of the movies from the 80s, She's got to have it.
John Savage. John Savage. It's a two-minute scene.
The Gentifier is where... So I was really scared.
I knocked on the door. I said, who is that?
I said, Spike. Can I come in? Come on in, Spike.
Sit down, sit down. And I said, because, I mean, we have a commercial together.
I know this is all. So he says, he says, Spike, look, we're good.
That means so much to me. Because I never, anything, I love Larry Bird.
But the thing for me was that he was positioned in the press as being the great white hope.
And Larry, that wasn't him. He just wanted to bust your ass.
Right. So he didn't know all this. I mean, he knew, but he wasn't all this mythology was put up behind him.
So that's what I was talking about. We had nothing to do with Blackbird.
We tried to hit that in the Celtics documentary we did for HBO about He's positioned as this great white hope.
But meanwhile, he's way more talented than that.
And he wanted no part of it at all. Yes.
I got nothing but love for Larry. I mean, he just wanted to bust your ass.
And that's it. It wasn't his fault. He was put in that position.
Yeah. I remember like going to Old Garden with the...
Lai Bird was at the Boston Garden at 6 a.m. and took 10,000 shots.
And like, we come out of the womb, but dunk it.
Right. No hard work, no expertise, you know.
But anyway, how you doing? I want to talk basketball first and then go into movies.
This is our year! Well, I haven't seen you.
The last time we did a pod was pre-COVID. at our two studios ago.
And then you got to set up here. Yeah. Now I got, now I brought you in and, but I haven't seen you since the Knicks got good again.
And then we had a little passing of the torch.
They beat the Celtics. Did you go to all... weren't you promoting a movie at some point during that series, right?
Nah, I just didn't go to Boston. You didn't go to Boston?
Nah. You won't go to Boston? You know, me and Coach are really good friends.
He came to my office. There's a picture on Instagram that you can use, you know, in front of my I'm pointing at him.
He's pointed at me. We've got the Nick team behind on the front of my office, but he, I love him as a coach.
And, uh, I'd like to say this. A couple weeks ago, I was invited to a mama's birthday party, a mama's venue, and Jason was there.
Yeah. So I just gave him a hug and say, you know, wish him a speed.
I don't want to see nobody get hurt. Were you at that game?
You were, right? Yeah. Did you know right away?
I knew it was bad. It was pretty close to where you were sitting.
Yeah, I mean, I knew it was bad and also...
Halliburton and Dame, you know, they all wear the number zero.
You know that? I know. I don't know if that's a coincidence or something.
I told Jason, I laid it down, what it was, and he said, Are you going to wear a number zero?
He said he's going to keep it. I'm trying to figure out why all these young guys are getting hurt.
And I'm wearing high tops. Well, you think that's it?
Because I've heard the high tops theory.
That's definitely one of them. I also feel like there's way more running in basketball now than there used to be with the three-point line.
Well, a lot of like sprinting out, trying to hedge over, flying over this way.
I just think that... There's a reason why players wore chucks.
Right. Converse. Well, they would just have knee injuries back then.
Now it's like, it seems like everything's moved toward the feet and the ankles.
Somebody should do a study because... this seems like a wave of this type of injury.
And, you know, when you get that, you're out for a year.
Yeah. Well, the Tatum thing was interesting because he gets hurt.
He's in New York. The best Achilles doctor is in New York.
He's on the operating table 10 hours later.
The operation was in New York? Yeah, and they were saying that actually might have been good for him that he was able to get it because that's what Kobe did too.
And Kobe actually came back pretty fast.
But then had a different injury. Colby was inhuman.
So let's push him to the side. But that's Tatum's work ethic idol though.
I haven't seen you since Kobe died either.
You were actually like legit friends with him because...
Well, we weren't great friends, but I had to be there.
And we did this thing called Kobe doing work.
I remember at ESPN. And listen to this though.
So we didn't want to put it out until we could do commentary.
And he looked down the scale and he said, Spike, let's do it after we kick the next ass.
And that's the game we set the record for the Garden.
I had the stat sheet. He signed it and said, Spike, this shit was all your fault.
Is that story true that he almost backed out at the 11th hour, Kobe doing work, the day of the game, and you had to go to the house and convince him to do it?
I always heard like an urban legend. I never knew what was true and wasn't true.
We were ready. And for some reason, he says, I'm not doing it.
And you had the 24 cameras or whatever it was.
You're ready to go. I was freaking out. And then... lay a blind on something.
He gave me like the thumbs up. That was close.
You think he was like just testing you? I don't know.
But it didn't matter what it was. It will be.
It would not be what it intended if... Oh, this... What do you got?
A 50th anniversary of... I know. I know.
But... I have a house I'm always living in.
Anyway, thank God. that Kobe said, gave me the thumbs up and we did it.
You know, everyone talks about the GOAT stuff and basketballs against basketball players.
And yet with directors and actors, we don't do it that way.
It's just like you basically either make some list.
I like we don't do it like that. I think it's better.
And I'm partially probably responsible for the goat, the rank.
You started it. Well, I definitely was involved.
But with actors and with directors, it's more like you move into this... this kind of area but nobody cares about the ranking of the area it's more like you kind of know who's there and who's not i think there's uh i don't know what the word is but I'm so tired of this LeBron.
This GOAT. thing that's going on forever and then you say this, well, Kareem's not in there.
It's just, I don't think it's What's the purpose?
If you think LeBron is, or you think Michael is, you think Wilt or whoever you, you know, Kareem?
Good, but why do we have to spend time like discussing this?
Yeah, and plus, people are going to have their opinion on it.
They're not going to change their opinion.
I'm going to tell you this, though. This is not new.
I grew up in Brooklyn. So it was always a Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle thing.
Right. So it's not new. But it's just with the internet, it's out of control.
For me. For me. Yeah, we've had good ones over the years.
Manny vs. Brady was good. Mike don't give a fuck about that.
He said, what are you talking about? I mean, LeBron probably say the same thing.
What is it good that comes out of that? I'm asking you.
Well, I think LeBron probably cares a little bit more because after Last Dance...
You know, Last Dance comes out. It's during COVID.
There's no sports. It's like this five-week MJ extravaganza.
Everybody's in it. There's this whole generation of people who didn't know how good he was.
And a lot of people were... Let's not talk about Scottie Pippen, you know.
I know, but the thing is, he becomes a hero at the end of that, Scottie Pippen, because it goes into game six when he's playing with the bad back and Jordan...
It is what it is. What's the guy that Phil Jackson...
When he ran the play for KU coach. Yeah.
Well, but that's like, that's a part of Scotty's legacy.
Unfortunately, that and the migraine, that's just how it goes.
You know, Ewing has the finger roll and it doesn't go in.
Hey, hey, hey, hey. But that becomes part of his legacy.
Why you bring a nick into it? And don't talk about game seven against Houston.
Well, you did you go to game one Pacers? this year the Halliburton the Neesmith hitting threes and then Halliburton so you were at that game right yeah So that game was on recently.
And I just started watching it. And I was like, I just forget what happened.
And I just couldn't believe... I couldn't believe it as it was happening.
It's actually three times crazier than I thought it was.
In person, you must have been going nuts.
Let me ask you this. Were you at the two games, one and two, where the Knicks were behind 20 points both games against the Celtics?
Were you there? Oh, you missed that one, huh?
You missed those two, huh? I was fortunately on the West Coast.
Up by 20! I know. I felt like we blew it. in those games because of the style we were playing.
The Indiana thing, Neisman's making fall-away threes They're making some of the craziest shots and they're all in a row.
And it wasn't even like the Knicks did anything that bad.
They missed like two shots. They missed a free throw.
Yeah. But for the most part, and he's just making like literally everything for 10 minutes.
So what are we talking about? Well, did you feel like that was a fluke or did you feel like, cause you, you guys were really good.
Here's the thing though. I'm gonna leave it at this.
And Knicks led the league, the starting five for Knicks led the league in minutes.
Yeah. I'll leave it at that. Oh, so you were a supporter.
Of what? Of the change. No, look, I got nothing but respect for my brother, Tibbs.
So why'd you say the minutes thing? It's a tough business.
Is that the closest you felt like the Knicks were to winning a title since 94?
Was that team the best team last 30 years?
Look, we were up 3-2 going to Houston in games 6 and 7.
Yeah, it's 94. Yeah, okay. This is our year.
I'm not even talking about the past. This is the year.
We're coming out of the East. What's lined up?
Because you got you guys in Cleveland. We got a bench, too, now.
You got Giannis, and basically he's the best player in the conference but doesn't have the best team.
My team's not going to be there this year.
Probably Orlando's a year away. Don't stay right this year off.
It's a write-off, as you can tell by the two trades we made.
Poor Zigginson Holiday for nothing. Plus, you got Were you in the third tier or something like that?
We got out of that. You got out of it? Thank God they don't have that for movies.
Second apron, third apron. Actually, that might be good for movies.
Maybe we'd start making more original movies and less superhero movies.
Could be, could be, could be. Although that's starting to change now.
I feel like this has been a nice renaissance year for movies with original voices, There's been original IP movies that people have gone to the theater to see.
You guys are back. Directors are back. From where?
No, you feeling it, though? I have to think about what you just said.
But there's a strange thing between... studio films and streaming.
You know, there's still kind of wonky. So, you know, they were trying to figure it out.
When you say strange, what does that mean?
You mean trying to get people to actually see a movie in the theater versus being home?
It's People, with the price of tickets and some other thing, they'd rather just stay home.
And I think that this stay home thing, as you stated, as you talked about, COVID, you know, there's still, COVID's not over as far as the mentality, I think.
You know, and there's just a thing where I'm going to stay home.
I got a big ass TV on the wall. Yeah. I don't have to drive.
I don't have to get in the subway. I'm just going to stay home.
I don't have people next to me in my seat on their phone during the movie.
That drives me crazy. I don't have to see somebody's phone light during a big scene.
Exactly. But even with that, There's nothing I remember as a kid waiting three hours in line to see The Exorcist or Alien or Jaws.
The fifth anniversary and there's nothing.
I mean, when the film is hidden and the theater's packed... is wonderful it's so funny like doing we do that movie podcast rewatchables and there's movies where they weren't number one until like the sixth week like these slow builds that just now it's completely different.
You have to hit in the first weekend. Yeah.
First weekend. That's it. It's, it's, uh, I'm way more optimistic than I was a couple years ago because I'm with you.
I thought COVID screwed everything up. I thought it changed habits.
Well, but beyond that, I'm just saying, well, Stand for it.
For movies, stand for it. Now, if you had a relative died of COVID, you wouldn't be talking like that.
Well, but you know what I mean, though. No, I don't.
I'm saying like the structure of the movie business, how they were made, what the prices for them were, what the goal trying to get people into a theater.
It felt like it shifted over the last five years.
And now it feels like it's a little more like the 2010s.
Well, let's do some of this. I'm a cinephile.
First it was silent movies. When sound came.
Yeah. Then when TV came, you know, it was going to kill the theater.
So all this thing is like... But say cuckoo.
Yeah, that's the word, my brother. So I think it's... I think the biggest thing is we just need... it's almost like basketball or basketball.
There'll be some years where there's like eight great players and there's other years where there's like 16. you have little classes.
Like you had your director class way back when of the up and comers.
Then it shifts. And right now it seems like we're in a good spot.
There's a lot of good people right now. Well, You got to get in where you can fit in.
What was your favorite movie you saw this year that wasn't yours?
Sinners. My brother Ryan, he did the damn thing.
Let me tell a quick story. He called me up and he says, Spike, do you happen to be in LA?
I said, yeah, why? Well, we're going through the final thing of IMAX.
And if you can get here in an hour, You can see it.
I'm rarely in LA. Yeah. So it wasn't a mistake.
I was there and he took a chance calling me.
So I'm there. I'm on the right. Ryan's in the center and his wonderful wife, Cindy, is there and Me, I know they're not going to want to sit next to me in a movie again because I was acting like I was my courtside seat of the guard and we were killing the sultans.
I was jumping up and down. I was like, my mom was born, especially to see that musical sequence.
With the genres and the eras. Yeah. I mean, I was so happy.
It was like I was, let's leave the Celtics out.
I was just happy. to be there and that he called me out of nowhere and then just took a chance maybe There's a chance Spike is in LA.
Because this is like the final view of the IMAX part.
The IMAX thing of a film. And That film was transforming.
That film took me to another place. And I love movies.
Yeah. And when I see something that's great, it just puts me, it lifts my spirit.
And it's finished me was at film this year.
I felt the same way. I've seen it four times.
We did a rewatchables on it. That's coming Monday, but it just, yeah, I walked out of the theater and the guest, huh?
Has Ryan been a guest? No, no, no. We do like people, fans have been talking about it.
Okay, cool, cool, cool. Well, you need to get him.
But I saw it on a Thursday before it had really come out.
I had no idea. Yeah. Oh. It was in L.A. where sometimes they premiered early.
And we walked out. So you didn't know... No, I always... I did the same thing with your movie.
I don't want to know anything because...
The only thing I knew about your movie was it was a remake.
And that was it. I didn't want to know anything else.
Well, you know what I mean? A reimagining.
A reimagining. Reimagining. Not a remake.
You know what I mean? but that was because you said that word remake but all I knew was MBJ and vampires and we were in the past and that's it and uh It was just... It's just so original and so creative.
And then the ending... when you just walk out of the theater, like, oh my God, like, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who hasn't seen it, but to land the plane, the way they did with that and the way they use the music,
I thought it was such a great in-theater experience, especially the way he used the IMAX and the cameras.
It's really, and my guy, MPJ. Best film of the year for me so far.
It's really great and it's made a ton of money.
That's the thing. People will come out if the movie's good.
So we've at least gone back to that. Because it felt like the studios were getting a little scared with... well, no, we got to walk, got to hold people's hand.
And it's got to be like, oh, I recognize the superhero.
Now it's like, is the movie good or not?
The word of mouth feels like it's back. We saw it with weapons.
People are going to see weapons because everyone's saying, did you see weapons?
It's good. Here's the thing, though. Even more than in the past, people worry about their jobs.
So very few people in this industry are going to take a risk that might give them their walking papers.
Right. And as history, as cinema, the people that who have pushed the best films over this Who knows how many years that they believed in the talent.
They believed in the story. And they said, fuck it.
You know, we're going to get behind this film and push it out.
Steven Spielberg's got a fire doing jobs, right?
You know, so when you have... Look, this is a business though.
But if you have people in those spaces, in the studios and streamers that have respect to the artist yeah and when they when the whole world is telling them don't do this film And that comes to me personally.
I'm getting choked up now because my brother, Tom Pollack, people told him, do not release do the right thing, especially in the summer because, you know, black folks riot in the summertime.
And that, here's the thing though, people forget about this.
He had just done the... Tom Pollack had just done The Last Temptation of Christ with Marty.
He had death threats. So... He cannot be blamed not doing the right thing, knowing him and his family were targets for death.
But Tom Pollack not listen to anybody. Those haters.
And he put do the right thing. to the world because nobody coming out of can black folks going to riot all this stuff, which has never happened.
And today it's in the canon of a great film.
So you gotta have people like that in the studios who are gonna champion they believe in and not... And look...
No one wants to get killed. But Tom Polly had people forget that he came out of The Last Temptation of Christ.
He had death threats, not just him to his family.
And he believed in me. He believed in the film.
And the rest is history, herstory. It's funny.
That's basically the last 50 years of movies.
Because you read all the books about like... No, about the 70s, right?
You have this huge director boom. And Coppola was one of the ones who was like...
I don't need the studios. I want to fund my own stuff.
And I had one from the heart, which almost bankrupted him.
So we had this little dance, right? I went to see a film.
One from the heart? Opening day was St. Valentine's Day.
Racing musical. Because you were still at NYU, right?
What year was that? 82? Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.
The 82 I finished. Yeah, so you had this.
We go to this new film. Francis. He put all the money in that film.
Right. Lost it too. So you, it's always been this dance with, I want to trust the director.
I don't want to trust them too much. No, I want to trust them.
And you see it in TV too, because all the greatest TV shows were done by one person.
Right? Sopranos, one guy. You know, Succession, one guy.
The Wire, two guys. The thing is not many of those people around know.
Well, that's the thing. And that's what makes people not trust... the actual artist, but I feel like it's happening more in movies.
I think people are starting to understand, like, if I just bet on somebody like Coogler, he's passionate about something, Even if he's only made four movies, it's still a good bet.
Let's talk about this, though. Ryan took this film, the film was the script around town.
Yeah. but no one would make it because he wanted to own the rights in 25 years.
Right, to get it back. And Pam and Mike DeLuca, thank God, they said okay.
At Warner Brothers. Great business deal.
Because they needed a hit. And they've had a string of hits since then.
Yeah. And guess what? They have it for 25 years.
He gets it back. Everybody wins. I mean, I don't think that'll be a new model going forward, but I think for them, I'm glad it happened though.
It's a little like NBA for agency, though.
All you need is one team that really needs somebody and they're willing to pay it.
And that's it. But I mean, for him now, he can...
His next one, he can do whatever he wants.
Yeah, but you should throw you do one just based upon Black Panther.
You would think. Did you ever have fuck you power with one of your, like, did you ever feel like I can make any movie I want and get a green light or no?
Never. Never. Never. I mean, I never made a film of $100 million until the last one. which was 18 years ago.
And I didn't even know it was 18 years ago since me and Denzel and I worked together until the journalists told me that that was 18 years ago.
That's the only thing, only research I did because I just wanted to talk to you and not feel like I was like following some sort of... That was the only thing I was like, how...
When was the last time they worked together?
When was Inside Man? I was like, oh, six?
First of all, that's crazy. You haven't made a movie with them since 06.
Like, that's your fault. You guys should make a movie every 10 years.
Come on. Look. You've only made five. I thought it was like 12.
Only? Coppola, Scorsese, and Leo have been seven.
Yeah, but that's not the same as Scorsese and De Niro.
And they've been 10. You know, that's not this for me.
You know what I mean? I know, I know. I feel like you could have made one every eight, nine years.
Look at the great director. You know, you got St.
Lumet with Pacino. I don't like the politics, but John Ford and John Wayne.
I think they have the record. They made like 21.
Ford and Wayne? Yeah. You have to say at least 20.
Yeah, how many Native Americans got killed?
It was a long time ago. Them savages. Them savages.
Yeah, some of them are tough watches. But yeah, Scorsese and De Niro are probably, from the last 50 years, probably the ones people would think of first because...
They made 10, but they also made them in different decades and they're classics for different ways.
Right. You could have snuck in for one like equalizer or something just to keep the streak alive. no one just snuck in for equalizing too Denzel and I were not thinking about that and I've come to believe as I get old in years yeah that things can happen when they happen.
You're not gonna have force. here's the thing we we saw each other in that interlude you know but we just didn't make a movie you know he has season tickets to the Lakers long walk It won't even happen with the Knicks.
And so we look at the schedules and when the Knicks are going to be in L.A.
But now it looks like the Knicks are in L.A., Same trip.
So I get to see the Lakers and then they have to get to see the Clippers.
You know what's crazy about him? Ooh, Denzel.
So now you figure like he's a lady man really starting late 80s, 1990 range, right?
So it's been 35 years. Mm-hmm. And usually when somebody is an A-plus lister in the face of a movie poster, At some point, you kind of either have to move into the old guy roles or you move into like where Cruise is or is basically just doing Mission Impossible and like franchise things.
Yeah. And Denzel could still play these original characters where I still feel like he can kick somebody's ass if he has to.
And he can do all these other pieces. I know.
Don't give it away. I don't give it away, but.
I just can't believe he's kept that going all these years later.
It's almost like watching LeBron in year 23.
Like, I don't understand how he's still doing this.
Here's the thing for me. And I say this very respectfully.
For me, I feel Denzel is a great actor. Now the escorcese, he's going to say the Nero.
France is going to say Randall. This is back to our previous discussion, though, about...
There's no answer. You just want to be mentioned.
It's not as vicious as LeBlanc Michael. But I think being mentioned is the win.
Why can't we all celebrate? For me, the whole, especially more in sports, and I don't think people go around saying, well, Canaro was this.
I mean, I think it just really has gone off the charts in sports for me.
Yeah. And it's... For me, mine, oh, there goes Dave the Busher.
But for me, it's a waste of time. in me.
And I know Michael thinks that way because we've talked about it.
He's like, man, I got too many things to do.
I got kids. You know, I got to just Plus Michael knows who's the best.
So he didn't talk about it. And where was he born?
He's like, I don't even talk about it. Where was Michael born?
I thought it was North Carolina. No. He's born in Brooklyn.
Oh, there you go. Cumberland Hospital. Mike Tyson was born there and Bernard Albert King.
Jesus. Camilla Hospital is a hospital in my neighborhood.
I grew up in Fort Greene, Brooklyn. Mike...
Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, Vernon Albert King, all born in the same hospital in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York.
Thank you very much. I was upset that you weren't defending Bernard's name a little more vociferously when Brunson had like, and by the way, I love Brunson. but he had a couple of good playoff games.
And then it's like greatest Nick ever. It's like, what?
Who should I say that? No, you didn't say it, but that was out there.
And it was like, Did you guys, you guys got to go on YouTube and watch Bernard in 84 for like two months, two months, just killing everybody.
Like, come on. Brunson was great. He knows his teammate was there in Tennessee.
Bernie Grunfeld. Yeah. The Bernie Ernie show.
Both from Brooklyn. Here's the thing with Denzel, though.
I think he's a one-on-one. There are certain basketball players like this too.
I just… Nobody can be the cool... You can play the role where you're the coolest guy in the movie, but he can also disappear into a character.
He can be like the dad in an ordinary people type movie, but he could also be the guy in Man on Fire.
Or Training Day. Or Training Day. King Kong!
Like, Hanks had that crazy run, right? But Hanks, there's certain roles he just wouldn't do or he just, you wouldn't have bought him in.
Denzel, I feel like is the most malleable of any A-plus lister we've had.
He can really literally put him in anything.
Even in this movie. He's never played a character quite like the guy in this movie.
Yeah, I am not going to argue with you. That would be my case for him.
I understand. He's... It's the blessing of them of the five.
Mo' Better Blues, Malcolm X, He Got Game, Inside Man, which was 18 years ago.
And now this. The last time you were on my podcast, we told the story about when he got the first four points off Ray Allen.
Well, but then I saw Denzel after. I think I did a podcast with him, I think, after you.
And he told his version of the story. And he's clearly more proud of it than just about anything he probably did on a movie set.
You know, Denzel played JV at Fordham. Yeah.
And PJ Carissimo was his coach. So he's, you know, He loves sports.
His season ticket for the Lakers, I mean, way, way- I saw him on ESPN.
You were there, too, killing Jerry Jones.
That was him. So- The script in the script.
Rihanna's supposed to win at 11. Right. He's supposed to kill him.
The dance was like, fuck that. I'm going to leave the basket.
And so Denzel starts throwing up. The throwing up shit is going in.
Yeah. And we had to have an acting coach named Susan Batson.
So... Denzel's throwing his baskets and then she's yelling at him.
What are you doing? What are you doing? And then Ray starts yelling at me.
He says, time out. you say cut he's saying with the technical because he was like was he like embarrassed yes Well, Denzel was doing the old guy bang against you.
I know, but here's the thing, though. He's looking at me.
I said, Ray's looking at me like, what the fuck's going on?
I just showed up like this. And then Ray said, oh.
And here's the thing, though. The point is that Denzel, him...
Nixon Vasquez made that scene better. Because I wrote it as 11 zips.
It's one of the best sports. It's one of my favorite, favorite sports movies.
And then you also go wide on it. And then also you got... It feels like you're watching a game.
The great musical election of Aaron Copland for that, too.
And think about that. That film, the musical film, was Public Enemy. and the great American composer, Aaron Copland.
So then, I mean, his story is amazing. He made the movie better.
I wrote Ray's character when he lived in Zipf.
But D was like, nah, he didn't tell me he's gonna do that, though.
That's the thing, though. He just did it.
And... The shots we were making were lucky.
And they were going in. We did that movie a couple years ago for rewatchables.
And it's aged... in this awesome way. And it's stuff I didn't realize when I saw it in the theater in 97.
Some of the stuff that's in there is where basketball is going, which you saw pretty early.
And I don't think I saw you. What was that?
Just how fast things were moving for fame for high school kids.
Oh, yeah. The system, all the money that was in place.
My brother Rick Fox takes him down, bro.
Take some to UNC, yeah, for the trip. Get a couple porn stars there.
But you know what's funny though? Now, you know, I sit in the garden.
So when teens or visiting teens would come in, they'd be going by me like, Spike, man, you gave way too much.
Seriously. You spilled the beans. We thought we had it on lock, man.
You put out there for the world to see. This is a joke.
Come on. You put two months in a two months in there.
Well, you had so you had Marbury was your access into that world, right?
Because you you were friendly with them.
Not really. It's just Abraham Lincoln. That was the school.
I mean, a lot of players... Oh, I thought...
I thought Jesus was modeled a little bit.
Is that an old way of saying it? That's what Stefan said, but really, Coney Island, historically, no.
Abraham Lincoln, that's the school for basketball.
Okay. And of course, Stefan went there, but it was not a biographical film.
Because something shifted over the course of the 90s as more money goes into basketball.
What do you call it? What do you call it?
Which one? And I. Oh, the NIL. Well, now it's like now you got to make he got game two and you just do an NIL.
You wait. Oh, so many people. First of all, you know, you want a hundred million dollar movie.
Do that. Well, you know, I sit the garden.
So if anybody wants to say something to them, and the Knicks, they come over.
People at the foul line, the guys over here, it's a spike.
Oh, because they want to be in it. Yeah, and then also Skylar, what's her name?
Diggs? She's the person that says, by God, do it again.
Flip it. She said that she was the first one to say that.
That's a great idea. Why wouldn't you do that?
I haven't done any remakes yet. It's not a remake.
It's a continuation. It's a reinterpretation like on Duma Kurosawa.
You know, reimagining him. I use the word reinterpretation.
Reinterpretation. This is a continuation.
This is like Top Gun Maverick. You get Jesus.
You get Ray Allen in it now. And it's his daughter.
Ray Allen said that. He's saying that every year.
He's available. He's ready to be in it. I actually think he's good in that movie.
Like, when you think of the legacy, I mean, obviously, you know this, the best basketball player performance ever is Bernard King in Fast Break as Hustler. like ripping off lines.
Like he's the most natural actor we've ever had.
You're not buying that one? I'm not comparing.
I mean, I haven't seen it in a long time.
Bernard's good in that movie. Bernard was in A Miami Vice with Bill Russell.
Bill Russell and Bernard were father and son in an episode.
I missed that one. Bernard was a good actor.
I thought Ray was good. It's not a long list of good.
Anthony Edwards was good in the Ed Up Sandler movie.
The what? Adam Sandler made a movie called Hustle on Netflix and Anthony Edwards is in it.
He's good. What's the one that... That Kevin Garnett was uncut gems.
Kevin Garnett was good. Yeah, he was good.
Or Boston Sultan. And I thought, even though Eddie was not a good movie, which I'm sure you probably hated.
I thought Malik Sealy was good in that movie.
I thought Rick Fox was good too. We've had some good ones.
Rick is an actor. Rick's an actor. You put him in this movie.
And Coach playing himself. Coach Fox. Coach Fox.
I don't know why he took the Larry Bird shot, though.
It's not a shot. That's what a policeman would say.
The guy was a Celtic fan, so why wouldn't he get at Rick Fox?
Larry Bird, and now you're taking shots at him.
I'm not taking any shots. I said before, ladies and gentlemen, those listening at home.
I have the utmost respect for Larry Bird.
We have to, there's a big thing before we talk about your movie.
I feel like Chalamet is on your corner a little bit and I want to make sure you guys are good because he's become a signature Knicks fan.
He's kind of It's kind of in your real estate.
Have you hashed this out? What's going on here?
No, no, no. My daughter... And my son, they all grew up together in New York City.
So I got, man. You condone this. We want to do a film together.
Oh, so you're in. Okay. I mean, all right.
He's on your corner a little bit. You're sharing it.
It's a big corner now. There's no competition at all.
He's wearing Chrome Hearts, Nick's wardrobe.
He's really stepped it up. Look, there's no robbery there.
This is like LeBron Jordan. He's a great actor.
I'm just trying to start shit. He's a great actor and one day we're going to work together.
I'm just trying to start dissension in Nick's Island.
There's no shit to be started. I don't know.
I heard he was telling people it's my team now.
No, he was. Spike's day was Patrick Ewing.
Why they lying on it? Why they lying on it?
Now, here's the thing. I know you do a kid, but people trying to start something.
Me and him are good. It's all good. Do people actually try to start stuff?
Interesting. Yeah, he's a hair parent, you know.
I'm going to hand him the baton. But it's not...
We just love the Knicks. Also, where are you going?
You have plenty of good Knicks years ahead of you.
Well, God willing. Look, he's a good guy.
He's a real fan. He's a real fan. He's a great actor.
And we've talked about doing a film together.
Once this schedule clears up the next four or five years.
Yeah, I was going to say, he's kind of in demand.
Mm-hmm. Well, maybe it could be a Knicks.
Knicks related. Nah, it's going to have nothing to do with sports.
He's a W fan sports radio host. I'm trying to think of something.
You had to think long and hard. Let me get back to the workshop on that.
Yeah, so it's you two. Who else was going on the road for those games?
You guys were the two big ones, right? It seemed like there was a little celebrity posse traveling around.
Yes. And that guy, Al Poligoni, you know, he sits next to me, you know, he has a, Apollo Jet, so we're all on his plane.
And a lot of the players, too. You must be so excited, though, that they're good again.
I mean, you talk about sticking through the lean years.
It's like... There's two fucking decades.
Look, we have not won a world championship since the 72, 73 season.
I know. How many years is that? How many years is that, my brother?
52. I was three years old. It's not 52. It's going to be 53 this year.
Yeah. This is the glory year. I don't want anybody to get hurt.
But with Tatum and Halliburton, I'm not scared of Cleveland.
They went out the first round last year.
Right. You should probably be scared of OKC.
I would be scared of them. Look, well, that means we're in the finals.
Yeah, that means you're in the finals. Let's get out and win the Eastern Division first.
That's why I said Boston and Indiana. Indiana put us out the last two years in the playoffs.
Your guy, if you look at the book there, Goldman's staring at you.
He missed all of it. Wait, Maya. Great writer.
Had his seats right behind the baseline, way before me.
He went to all of them in the last 15 years.
There was no good memories, but now... And the Brunson thing, I don't know how sustainable it is with small guards. to be like, to just do this for seven, eight years.
Cause the pounding he takes, like Isaiah was retired when he was like 32.
Isaiah Thomas, the Celtics version, he was...
Last, in 2017, he got hurt. I just, he takes a lot of hits.
That would be my one favorite. Well, I don't think this would happen with Mr. Brooks.
What do you mean? You just think he's just built different.
And he's a crazy worker. He's built like that.
He's built for it. And so he's going to be the one to lead us to the glory land.
You get along with his dad. Rick? His dad's running the team, apparently.
One of the team. No, he's not even a lead assistant coach now.
I know. That was a rumor that was going around.
No, it's true. No, I know it's Leon and World Wide West.
No, I'm saying Mike Brown is hiring his own assistant coaches.
Is Rick Brunson, I thought he was on the bench.
He's not? He's the only one left. Everybody else is gone.
And you like Mike Brown? Yeah, I think that, look, I love Tim.
You seem very confident. Last time I saw you, you were not confident at all.
Yeah, how many years ago was that? That was like 2019-18 range.
We're in 2025 now. I think you just traded Porzingis.
You ever heard that soap opera, As the World Turns?
Yeah. I think you just traded Porzingis and you were down in the dumps.
Or you're about to trade Porzingis. What happened?
The Knicks. That was the last time I saw you.
Well, that's... Shoot, you guys got rid of him.
Well, we had to. They changed the rules on us.
Oh, that rule is just for the Boston Celtics.
Change the rules. I'm sorry we built an awesome team of assets.
Now you have to take assets away from us. happen in the Knicks yeah yeah yeah you can't keep this team together I don't mind the Knicks when we get a ring yeah Well, so he got game two as a gender flip, I think is great.
This movie you did... which I saw last night, which was exhilarating.
You saw last night? I did. You had a screener?
I did. No, I went to one of those screening theaters.
I would have liked a bigger theater, but it did the job.
And I didn't read anything. I didn't know where it was going.
I just had a great time. I had a great time.
You know what? Denzel Washington, he's been in my life now.
I mean, you have to go back to Sin Elsewhere because I saw him on that show.
But as a reliable, I'm going to go see Denzel in a movie theater.
This is now 35 years. It's atypical. And then you two together.
He's consistent too. Yeah. You two together.
Like, of course, I'm going to enjoy that.
D and Lee. So you're doing the reinterpretation.
Yes, of the Kurosawa film, which is made from American novel written by Ed McBain.
So United States, Japan, and also that was Japan post-war, 1963.
And that was shoes. Yeah, and I mean, Denzel to be owner of a shoe company, you know, I think you have to bring him back to the culture.
He's the founder and head of a record label, Stacking Hits.
Yeah. And he's come to this point where that music is hard to stay on top, you know, for decades.
And the thing for me that really drew me to this part behind work with Denzel again is that And what makes the novel and also Kurosawa's film highest, lowest, is that when you're an audience, this is the right thing, when you're an audience watching this film,
You put yourself in the shoes of Denzel Washington with this morality.
What will you do? I love what will you do movies.
This is just one of them. Yeah. You're sitting in your seat going, fuck, I know what the right choice is, but I do it.
And that's, that's, and then when you have an actor, esteemed actor on the level of Denzel Washington, I'm sure everybody who sees this film in the theater or at home will feel the same way asking themselves, what will they do if they were in a situation Denzel's character David King is in?
So you've known him for so long, because I do this now, because I'm a little younger than you, but I'm still in my mid-50s.
But you started- What year were you born?
I was 69. So you go back- In the years past.
Yeah, a little- The amazing 69 Mets. Well, Russell's last title.
I like to think of 69 in the moon. But managed by Gil Hodges.
Ed Crane pulled it first. And that was a great game.
Ken Boswell at second. Bud Harrelson is short.
Did you like that team? I love that team.
Cleon Jones in left. Tommy Agee in center.
Ron Shraboda. And right, Tom Sievert, Jerry Kuzman, Gary Gentry, Nolan.
There's a famous card, baseball card, Gary Gentry and Nolan.
Nolan Ryan shared the same rookie card. Yeah.
So, and also, sometime first baseman Don Clendenin and Don Clendenin went to my college Morehouse College Done with two N's.
Yeah. The reason I brought up 69 was I have friends that I've had since 1988.
Things we did together, they just blend in with each other.
You've known Denzel since the 80s. The first one was Mo' Better Blues.
Yeah, yeah. I knew him before that, though.
So when you think of like this relationship you have with them, does the ship blend in together?
Do you remember specific things or what, what is it at this point?
Here's the thing though. Me and Denzel are friends.
We trust each other, but we might see each other When the lake, when the lake, when Nick's in LA, I'm sitting next to him.
What's the new, what's the new place called?
Arena. Into a dome. No, that's the Clippers.
Yeah. Anyway. And then he might, he's in New York.
He lives in New York too. You know, we come to the net game.
So it's not like we're best friends. talk all the time but we're doing a film is rock south so when you've done a film when you've done four other movies with somebody and then you're doing the fifth with them Is there like a shorthand or like, is it new every time?
We did not, have to have a deep conversation about the other force we've done.
No, we work. It's like we work together.
Yeah. Insight Man was yesterday. Right.
That's that what we have. And our wives are close and our children, Denzel's son was a leading black Klansman, John David, right?
Washington. So, it's you have to be up in somebody's face every single minute, you know, because if the bond is there and it's on solid grounds, on trust and love, That's all you need.
You have to see him every day. When I did a pod with him, I was all excited to go backwards and talk about different movies he made.
And he's the opposite. He just is like, I made the movie.
It happened. I don't think about it anymore.
That's what Denzel is. Yeah. I'm going to say this.
Denzel doesn't even look at his films. He didn't want to talk about it.
He wanted to talk about the Knicks and the Lakers.
Who's this? Denzel. Yeah. That's what I mean.
He moves on. Moves on. What's next? What about Man on Fire?
It's like, yeah, Tony Scott. He just doesn't care.
Well, he cares, but I think it's just his process.
Right. He's just on to the next one. He doesn't...
He's in the moment, he's in the future, and he's not in the past, he's gone, and you can't bring him back.
It's like Tom Brady. What's your favorite Super Bowl?
The next one. That stands out. What's your favorite movie?
The next one. Now you bring up Tom Brady.
I'm sorry. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What about this?
Who's this? Who's this? What's that? You know what that is.
Are you talking to me? Oh, come on. What's this?
Manningham. So that one bothered me more.
Why? Because you were undefeated that year?
Because they outplayed us in 07. The Giants were better that game.
They kicked our ass that game. That 2011 Giants team stunk.
We gave them that game. going to get in the car right now?
How do we make the Super Bowl stink? Well, the Lambeau game, that was a good one, but I think we were better than them in 11.
Why aren't you winning it? We stunk. We choked away the game.
So why are you undefeated? Eli made one throw.
If you're undefeated, you're undefeated.
No, that was 07. So you choose the soup bowl to stink?
No, that was 07. You guys beat us in 07.
Like that front four dominated the game.
They were better. I'm fine with 07. Yeah, 07, we lost.
We couldn't run the ball, and the front four killed us.
So Tom Brady was courtside in that game.
Yeah. And they gave him a ball signed. He has to throw up in the stands during a timeout.
Yeah. So Tom says, come here, Spike. When this thing happens, I'm going to throw the ball to you first.
And you throw it back to me. He throws me a bullet like I'm Gronk.
Right. I'm 5'6". The bullet flies over my head.
And lucky it hit me. Right. In the head.
Right. So the ball goal here, I run back and get it to him.
And he threw up. But that was funny. Do you fit?
Like you've been around. I'd also like to say this.
Yeah. I got the, Utmost respect for Brady.
Great guy. Thank you. Great guy. Great guy.
You've been around a lot of cool actors, people with charisma, and a lot of cool athletes with charisma.
Is there some sort of common... There's some sort of common DNA trait that you notice.
Confidence. Right. Not every athlete's... great actor, but I'm talking about the greats and the ones that really thrive in front of the camera.
Conference also they take direction to. So the athletes, the great ones, they got to listen to the coach.
Coach may call on the fucked up play and they say, fuck that, I'm not doing that.
But in general, that they listen, listen.
They didn't start listening to coaches when they're in the major.
That shit starts early. Pop Warner, whatever it is, you know, And the great ones had the blessing of having a coach that could put them on a straight path. lay down stuff you got to do to get there.
Because you always hear these guys talk about, not necessarily their pro coach, but...
Especially a high school coach. High school coach who made the path... smooth weather world you wanted, but those high school coaches laid down the foundation.
Do you agree with that? I think coaches, especially at the elementary high school level, are like seven times more important than people give it credit for.
They can make you either not like sports or they can make you love it.
With this travel squad and all, it's crazy.
They were at a great reckoning with basketball right now.
Where's that? Tell me. The specialization, the AAU stuff, the flying everywhere, the plane.
It's horrible. eight games and two weekends.
And it's all for the, there's pressure on these parents that if you don't do it, your kid's going to fall behind.
And they lost in the sauce. They fucked up everything.
Well, doesn't money usually do that? Well, that's for damn sure.
But the specialization, you talk to some of these, some of the best athletes I've ever had.
Like even LeBron played football in high school.
Like he was playing multiple sports. But something has shifted.
Multiple sports helps. Whatever sport. Really.
And it also helps if you're an awesome athlete that could play multiple sports.
The confidence thing though, was there another actor other than like Denzel, obviously, but were there other people you remember where you're like, man, that guy really...
Or that lady really, really knows what they're doing.
Because you've had 40 years of movies now.
John Turturro. John Turturro. Edward Norton.
Oh, you got, that's my favorite. That's my favorite Spike Lee movie.
25th Hour? Yeah. Philip Seymour Hoffman.
I mean, that movie is incredible. We talked about it last time, but it's basically the the right after 9-11 movie that people didn't realize was the right after 9-11 movie but it is yeah nobody went to see that movie when it came out and uh I'm a New Yorker, and the thing about, I wasn't even in New York for,
9-11. Where were you? I was in L.A. I was trying to get Arnold Schwarzenegger in a film I was doing.
What? To do a film called Save Us, Joe Louis.
I wrote with the great Bud Schulberg. And he was going to play Max Schmeling.
Really? So I was on our left, and we had a meeting that morning, and we weren't even talking.
We were just looking at the TV screen. So you sprinkled the...
You sprinkled some serious New York in this new movie.
I don't want to spoil it for the people that haven't listened, but there's an action sequence.
I'm a New Yorker! You got Yankee Stadium.
You have a parade. You got all kinds of stuff happening.
And I'd like to say, if I can right now...
We're all saddened by the loss of the great, great, great Eddie Palmieri who passed.
I mean, his scene. where he performs the anthem, not anthem, but the great song, Puerto Rico, that holds that scene together.
And he just died last week. Damn. You know that?
Yeah, he died. So I was thinking I was your first movie was 86.
She's going to have it. it's now 2000 you've this is your 40th year of making movies yeah yeah 48 years?
40. Oh, 40. 4-0. This is your 40th Spike Lee movie year.
That's 40 for 40 acres and a mule. Would you have guessed that in 86?
I will make 40 years of movies. No, I mean, I barely making shit had practically killed me.
So everything after that, my brother's been a blessing.
Because I say this all the time. I hope that people don't get mad.
Don't get mad at me saying this if they heard it more than once.
On this God's earth, if you can make a living doing what you love, you won.
The joyous people in this gospel, for their grave, haven't worked at a job they hated.
But they're not going to let their kids starve. closing kids back and food and a roof over your head but That's not their dream.
But when you get there, to do what your dream is, you won.
You won. I don't think you could say that enough.
Because it's true. It's true. I mean, you talk to a lot of college kids and stuff, but that must be one of your big messages, right?
Well... My brother, I know I said the term many times, but I mean it, is truthful.
The thing that brings me joy, besides making films, I'm a cinephile.
And I'm a tenured professor of film in Wayne Grady Film School.
Ernest Dick is my great-teacher in those early years.
And Ang Lee, we're classmates. Ang Lee?
Yes. And Jim, same class. And Jim Jarmusch was two years ahead of us.
So Jim Jarmusch had white hair even back then.
So when Jim Jarmusch's Strange in Paradise hit, we were like, that was, we were so happy because look, Oliver Stone was before us at NYU.
Marty was before us at NYU. So we loved them, but we didn't, they weren't in our class.
They weren't in the building when we were there.
You know, So when Jarmusch, I always give my love to Jim Jarmusch because he made it possible that independence was the way to go.
So everything Jim did with Stranger Parallels, I did with She's Gonna Have It.
I followed the festival thing like that.
So I'm a teacher. I've been teaching for 30 years. every Thursday.
But when I'm shooting a film, I take the semester off.
But I love teaching class. I love it. I'm not going to name people several, more than several people working today.
I was a professor. Not that I was only a professor.
But I helped them. And it's gratifying to see young people.
Win. You know. And that. Even for a class.
I have class. I have one from one to two, from two to five or six, depending upon the film we're showing.
A lot of times we have guests. And from seven to 12, I have advisement where, 30-minute slots.
Students come in. I look at their films.
I read their scripts, stuff like that. We had one... So we watched...
What was the film? Close Encounters. So lights go up.
Oh, I just watched that movie. Lights come up and then Steven Spielberg walks down the aisle behind him.
Come on. They said, because he was gracious enough to come to my class.
Oh, my God. People... went motherfucking crazy.
Just saw the great, you know, close, close accounts of lights come up and he's there looking down.
So anytime we have guests, we surprise them.
Same thing happened with Edward Norton. with your film, 25th Hour.
So when I can, I have guests because... I just don't want to hear one voice.
Spike said, you're bringing the person that wrote the script, the person that wrote it, the star of it, the producer of it.
It just makes it a, you know. I mean, Spielberg walking in, they're probably just so stunned, it's not even a reaction.
No, they started cheering. They started cheering and clapping and they were happy.
And, and, and, uh, Steven, he, he told me real like that, that, that he had a chance to speak to, uh, young filmmakers how are you feeling about the state of black filmmakers these days especially the younger ones Well, I mean, you can't... Look, everybody's excited about what Ryan's done.
But He's not the only one. And so it's still a struggle.
And so... Got to keep on keeping on. That's just the nature of the business.
The one thing that's changed, I think, the most severely in a good way.
What's that? Well, think about when you did Malcolm X, it was initially going to go to a white director, Norman Jewison, who's one of the you know one of the best directors several films with yeah hurricane would then yeah But in that case, the way Hollywood thought about that stuff, they never even occurred to people like, yeah, maybe... maybe we should have a black director for this.
And now it feels like that's shifted. But here's the thing though.
Like with all types of- If I may add this, here's the thing though, and not too many people know about this.
That film was Norman Jordan's film. Yeah, he developed it, right?
With some of his last name. Anyway, he... I made it known that, you know, I had a certain type of feeling about that.
And so... Martin worked, he arranged the meeting between Norman Jewison, the late, great Norman Jewison and I, and I just explained to Norman why I thought I should be directing a film.
And normally we had a talk back and forth and, you know, excuse me, He bowed out gracefully.
He didn't have to do that. The film was his.
The film was Norman's. He chose Denzel. Denzel's part I've filmed even before me.
Also, Denzel had done an off-Broadway play that called When Chickens Come Home to Roost, but I got to give Shout out to Noah Drewson because he, if he could have said, Spike, you know, F you, I'm directing it.
But he didn't do that. Yeah. in the early 90s, probably wouldn't have been a big deal.
In fact, you probably would have been like, who's Spike Lee?
Why does he think he should direct this?
It's definitely shifted a little. for what that was.
No, I know, but you don't even... No, but I'm just saying, I'm getting a shot on.
I'm complimenting The late great Norman Jewelers.
What's the biggest movie that you thought you were going to do that you're the most excited to do and then you didn't do?
Was there one that was like your big kahuna?
There's two. It was a Jackie Robinson movie, which I was going to do with Ted Turner.
But my approach was I did not want to do a film just about 1947.
Yeah. I want to do a biopic. And they chose not to, but Chad did a great job.
And the other script, which I've mentioned, is called Save Us, Joe Louis.
Yeah. was I wrote with the great, great Bud Shulbrook.
Bud Shulbrook was inducted. He's in the boxing hall of fame.
Uh, But wrote Oscar on the waterfront. And through Cassandra, I got the meat button.
We came very close. We wrote the script together. about the relationship between Joe Louis and Max Schmel and all the stuff that's happening.
Yeah, it's actually a fascinating... story that they became friends after and all of it.
And, you know, she was not a Nazi. Yeah.
But it didn't happen. The first fight...
In Yankee Stadium, Jordan trained, got knocked out of the second fight, trained, knocked Schmeling out.
But the thing about this, the second fight, For the second fight, FDR summoned Joe Louis to the White House and said, come here, Joe.
FDR was in a wheelchair and he said... These are the muscles that we're gonna beat the Nazis with.
People thought that the winner of the Shmuel and Lewis fight, the second fight, 938, would determine the winner of World War II.
Jesus. And it went like Joe's here and post-war Germany, Coca-Cola, America, all America wanted to get business in Germany.
The war's over. And Coca-Cola needs a president, so they elect Max Schmelen to be president of Coca-Cola in Germany.
Joe gets involved in drugs and stuff and he's a greeter at Caesar's Palace some place you know some Hotel and up.
Las Vegas. And so, it shifted. And it broke.
And Schmell was the president of... Coca-Cola.
Jesus. It's an epic film. yeah Joe became like a casino greeter right he just was yeah and you know he got into drugs you know cocaine stuff like that but The fact that me and Bud came really tight.
Yeah. And this is a guy that wrote, you know, What Makes Sammy Run.
Facing the Crowd, the film after Waterfront.
And there were several times where You call me up, Spike, did you get the money yet?
Yeah, he has a very particular voice. Yeah.
And I made a promise to the great Buzz Schulberg that on his deathbed, literally, I would get this film made.
It never happened. Not yet! I'm not going to lie.
I'm not going to lie. We're getting to Bud.
Bud, we're getting this film made. Could there be a Michael Jordan movie?
Because I feel like the documentaries are so good now.
I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. I don't think Mike would want to do it either.
I'm like, I can't speak to him, but. Right now, in my opinion, Mike just wants me left the fuck alone.
Right. Just leave me alone. I got my boat.
I got this. I got my car thing going. You know, just let me live my life.
That's what I think I get from Mike. Cause I think the last dance is almost like the movie.
Like if you're going to do Michael Jordan movie, just watch the last dance.
And I don't know if you can make a movie that's, You know, I thought Ali, I know you were interested in doing the Ali movie at some point.
It's got some... With Will Smith. It's got some interesting stretches, but ultimately like Ali was such a one-on-one.
It's hard to even play. How do you play him?
There's nobody like him. We've never had a human being like him before or since.
You know, but look, everybody makes their choices.
And so, again, I know I'm repeating myself, but I made the promise that the great Bud Schulberg.
Yeah. I'm gonna get this filming. For me, On the Waterfront is my favorite movie of all time.
Of all time. Brando I mean, look, what actor has done what Brando did on the waterfront?
I could have been a contender. There's a funny scene where, in your favorite, one of your favorite films of mine, Twin Earth Hour, where Barry Peppers accidentally broke Edward Norton's nose.
For real. Yeah. For real. And so the ambulance is there.
The camera's here. And the ambulance turned the alarm off, whatever it is, the siren off.
So Cameron is in front of The ambulance.
I said, Edward, give me one more take. Not one, just give me one take.
Remember how Brando walked? I think I beat up.
Yeah. He's walking up the steps from the thing.
That's why they want you to walk to the museum.
Yeah. I mean, to pass the camera. Yeah.
And as soon as you pass the camera, I'll call a cut.
Get your nose fixed. Jesus. You remember when Brandon, he got beat up in the shed?
Brando had a weird hold over all the actors from like 1970 probably through Ed Norton right but now it's That's one of the things I always think about with movies and sports, like enough time passes.
And then if you're in that film, like, do you think like Chalamet played a boxer?
Right. I watched a boxer in that film. Yeah.
I had a Delroy Lindo thing I wanted to bring up before we go yeah yeah yeah because he's really good in Sinners, but he was also really good in your movie.
I feel like he's having- Five Bloods also.
I think he's having a renaissance. Also.
He played my father. And Crooklyn, right?
Alfie Woodard played my mother. That film is semi-autobiographical about the leaves growing up In Brooklyn.
I was trying to think of the sports equivalent of somebody having the run he's having right now in movies.
I'm happy for him. It's great. I'm happy for him.
Yeah, because you've... He should have won an Oscar for a supporting actor for...
The Five Bloods. That one scene in the film where he's speaking to the camera, going through the jungle and stuff like that.
He was awesome in that movie. So what's your next movie?
Do you know yet? Don't know yet. And also, to be honest...
I know, but I don't talk about stuff before it happens.
For me, personally, I think that's a jinx.
Oh I see what you mean. So there might be a next movie.
Oh I'm not done yet. Are you at the point now where you're like, eh, mid April, May, June.
Oh yeah. Probably not filming. I pick dates.
Yeah. Like we gotta be going by this date.
We're done by like March 29th. I have business.
Well, here's the thing, though, because I'm still teaching.
Yeah. So it let me off. You know, you have the fall semester and the spring semester.
So they got to know. Well, I'm not going to be teaching.
So 40 years of Spike movies. What was the one that came out in a way that you look back now and you think, That's the closest to what I wanted the movie to be.
Now looking back, the most things went right.
I feel the best about this. I did my job the best I possibly could have But I would say I've done the best I could. that time.
So you don't think of it that way. There's not one looking back years later where you're like, Man, a lot of things went right for that one.
You need like 20 things to go right, right?
You're absolutely right. To make a movie... is one of the hardest things known to humankind.
I didn't say mankind, I said humankind. And there's so many things that are out of your control.
So you've won one actor that you cast wrong.
One, one scene that something got screwed up and the take wasn't what you wanted.
Like, That's why I said it's the hardest thing known to humankind.
I think as far as you're in the art form, So I'm not saying it's hard as digging a ditch in a coal mine in West Virginia.
I'm not saying that. Well, the hardest thing now is going to be to win four straight NBA titles in a row with the second apron.
That's the single hardest thing right now.
We'll never see it again. As a person, as a Knick fan, and we had it once this season, We don't have that luxury of having... How many rings do you got?
17? We have 17. Unlike the Lakers who lie.
They count the five Minneapolis ones. It's bullshit.
Come on now. Can't count those. That was a great rivalry.
It really was. We'll see what happens now with the Lakers because they stumbled into one of the five best guys in the league.
That was not a stumble. Well, what's your conspiracy theory?
I know stumble on stumble, but... What are you trying to tell us, Spike?
Who was that? Was that Hogan's hero? I know nothing.
I know nothing. You didn't like Hogan's Hero growing up?
It was a little, it was five years before.
I was Brady Bunch Partridge family was my era.
Oof. Those were the sitcoms. You know what's funny, though?
In Crooklyn, there's a scene where we used to have... four siblings.
So we had to vote. And the Partridge family and the Gordy Bunch were back-to-back.
And it came on the same time as the Knicks.
Oh, really? On WT Channel 9. So it always got outvoted.
That scene is in the movie. I'm trying to think like, so what time would that have been? what, what time would that?
So the Knicks came on at seven, seven, Brady bunch run at seven o'clock at night. seven yeah seven thirty eight o'clock eight o'clock we really didn't have a lot of tv options back then in new york channel two Four, five, seven, nine, 11.
That was it. Yeah. That was it. We had the same.
We had six in Boston. And that was all we had.
All right, Spike. Look, I want to thank you.
And also you do a great, great job, man.
I mean, you know sports. I try. Even though you're from Boston.
You don't try. What did Yoda say about the word try?
I try. He didn't say that. Yoda did not say that.
You know, my brother, what do Yoda say? Yoda?
Yoda from Star Wars. What'd he say? There's no tribe, dude.
Anytime one of my students, I have a stack, a zero, a stack of piles.
Picture Yoda and the quote. Anytime one of my students in class says the word try, I slap my fingers, my TA plops that piece of tape in front of him.
Boom. That's it. Don't try. Try. Gotta go.
And, and thank you, Mr. Lucas. I also want to point out you did this entire podcast with me with the 1986 Celtics finger behind your head.
You got me. I got you. Hey, any sport Boston and New York is great.
Spike, I hope I see you in the playoffs with a healthy Jason Tatum.
You think he's coming back? I don't know.
Well, I don't, as you said, this year's a write-off for us.
If he comes back, I'm just hoping to come back too soon and hurt it again.
That's the thing. We've all written off this year, but I think these guys are really competitive.
And if you tell them... May, they're going to want to come back in April.
Let me ask you a question. I don't think I got to go with my next thing, but what do you think about the Knicks this year?
Go, New York. Go, New York. Go. Coming out the east.
I think if it's a bet your life situation, they're the safest bet.
I'm not sure I would do the bet though. You think the Cavaliers?
I still feel like Milwaukee is going to be heard from.
I know everybody thinks that's crazy. Who's on that team, to be honest?
The name's not even there anymore. They're going to go.
Having the best guy in the conference, I still value.
So I have to mention them. And then I really want to see Orlando, what those guys look together would be the other one.
But you have the best chance. Coming out of the East, right?
I don't trust the Cleveland thing at all, but you could argue... that they just had a dumb playoff series.
Garland was hurt. Indiana made a couple crazy shots and all of a sudden they got bounced.
But that team won 64 games. So maybe they'll have the eye of the tiger now.
Maybe that was like their Clubber Lane moment.
Let me ask a question. When New York wins the... mid-champion.
It's not a jinx. I'm just saying. We win next year I want to be on the show.
I'm flying the next day. Spike, you're always invited on the show.
I want to come on a... Not all the time.
I'm talking about, we haven't won since the 72-73 season.
And I want to see, I want to be in this scene looking at you.
You're always invited. I want to be here the day after we win.
So help me God. That sounds great. You bring Chalamet.
What? We can bring Chalamet. We'll figure out your W fan movie.
Good. All right. Good to see you. Thank you.
Oh, we left us on slow. Well, we got to keep going.
Last thing. Yeah. You're watching the film.
Yeah. And how many times has Boston mentioned this film?
I'm asking, were you laughing when those things happened in the film?
First of all, I know going into it, there's going to be ship shots fired at Boston and the movie set in New York.
So I'm just waiting. So you knew it. I'm waiting.
So I see Rick Fox. Can I just say this? You knew those shotguns were coming, right?
I knew it was coming, so I had my bow professed on.
Double barrel. Well, I knew it was coming, but then I saw Rick Fox and I was like, friendly face, played with the Celtics for seven years, played with Larry Bird.
He won't be part of this Boston anti-propaganda.
Nope. Boom. You had him. Then you had Turturro.
Channing, this Boston sucks in the subway with 50 people.
He did a third thing too. There was three different anti-Boston things in there.
I noticed all of them. Well, look, all I can say is... Listen, you stay true to yourself.
That's what makes you you. All I can say is I love Martha's Vineyard.
Thank you. All right. Thanks so much to Spike Lee.
Thanks to Danny Kelly. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Saruti as well.
Good to have Saruti back. Don't forget. Rewatchables, Rollerball last Monday and then Sinners coming up next Monday.
So you have the whole weekend to watch. It's free on HBO Max.
If you get HBO Max, just knock it out. A classic, an immediate classic.
Anyway, enjoy the weekend and I will see you next week.
I want to see them on a way so I can understand.
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