Negotiating with Confidence: Knowing When to Walk Away | Negotiate Anything

Today's episode of Negotiate Anything.

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Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.

With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone.

And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

Henry, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thank you so much for having me.

Hey, man, it's my pleasure.

So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, my name is Henry Oregon.

I'm the founder and NFLPA certified agent here at Disruptive Sports Agency.

We run a fully minority-owned sports agency that specializes in representing NFL athletes, coaches and NBA players.

This is great.

And listeners, Henry is a man of great discipline and restraint.

He is in Las Vegas, Nevada, and he told me he was doing nothing fun.

Very impressed.

Absolutely, man.

Got to be focused.

It's game time.

The clients aren't partying right now.

Why would I be partying?

There you go.

This is great.

And listen, I always want to make sure I give you the opportunity to shout out.

You got a new book, man.

That's really exciting.

I appreciate that.

The book is called The Information Interview Playbook.

And it's just really it's all about mastering the information interview.

It's the book that I wish that I had when I was coming out in undergraduate and graduate school.

So it just gives over goes over some of my tips and tricks of how to conduct information interview.

It really it helps you figure out what you're trying to do in life.

Right.

When you go to college.

Unless you're a doctor, a lawyer or an accountant, college is not very linear exactly what the next path is to getting a job right, and so in order to figure out what you want to do, what you're passionate about and how to do that, you need to go to the person that's done what you're trying to do, and you need to talk to a lot of people and figure out how they got there.

So this book just discusses the strategies to master an information review and the tactics i used to get to where i'm at today.

This is great.

And I think one of the cool things about the way that you're approaching it is because it's not just the standard informational interview book.

You're coming at it with a perspective that is very business focused because of your experience your extensive experience negotiating high level deals.

Absolutely.

Yeah, man.

I mean, this is great.

Yeah.

I mean negotiating high level deals.

For me is it was landing those conversations to get those clients and converting those into opportunities to be able to negotiate and make money was all a negotiation itself in the first place.

So you're always negotiating, no matter what it is.

Whether it's to get on your podcast, whether it's to go have coffee with somebody, take a girl on a date, take a guy on a date.

Whatever that may be, you're always negotiating.

This is great.

This is an awesome place to start Henry, because you negotiate high-level deals, but I love the fact that you still have this negotiator's mindset permeating throughout your life.

Because you're right, every single conversation we have, we can look at it through the lens of negotiation and it helps us to be a lot more intentional.

And I think it would be really cool to give the audience an idea of kind, of the life cycle of the negotiations that you have.

So, for example, you have to negotiate to get the client.

And then, once you get the client, what types of negotiations are you doing on behalf of the client?

Yeah, you're negotiating for football clients, basketball clients let's just start their coaches clients.

You're negotiating marketing deals.

You know what their brand endorsements looks like, how much they're getting paid, just for simple simple, simplicity terms.

You know how much you're getting paid per signature for memorabilia.

Then you're negotiating their split language and their contracts.

If they're rookies or draft rookies, you know when they get paid as far as the lump sum payment and their signing bonus.

There's a tons of different nuances that you're negotiating.

You're negotiating with the client's parents.

You know what he's going to get them, what he's not going to get them.

You're negotiating with his brothers, his siblings, his girlfriend, his wife, and i think that negotiations at time has a negative connotation right, because people associate negotiations with oh, he's going to get over on me, but no, it's always negotiation.

You know hey, if i get two pieces of pizza, it's usually cheaper than getting one slice of pizza, and so everything is always negotiation.

So it's just understanding that and just for the client, just negotiating everything for them.

Now, when you think about all of these types of negotiations you're having day to day, we have personal life, we have business life, we have the throughout the entire life cycle of your clients.

What would you say for you are the most challenging negotiations that you have to do?

I mean, they're all challenging.

None of them are easy.

It's just about how many reps you've had maybe at that specific conversation.

And then the ones that are the toughest are the ones that you don't have leverage, or you don't have it out, or you don't have another option to select.

And so when you have no leverage, you really can't negotiate.

You have to just take what is given and not continue to try to push.

I see people push a lot and they have nothing to stand on.

Well, you want this amount of money, but nobody else wants to give it to you.

So if nobody else wants to give it to you, that person is not going to give it to you.

Absolutely.

It's just really simple.

Like, why would I give you $10 when everybody else only wants to give you one?

You're right, man.

And I think we could do a big societal deep dive on this.

When we think about hey, participation trophies everybody kind of feels entitled to, whatever it happens to be, because they are special and the only version of themselves.

But what if nobody else wants that version of you?

Then you don't have leverage because you don't have options.

And I think that it's interesting because I've seen in the negotiation world just the concept of power and leverage almost falling out of favor and focusing more on the interpersonal aspect of it and the empathetic aspect.

And I think those are really important.

I mean, I talk about in the books and everything like that, it's critically important.

But I think sometimes the pendulum has swung so far to the other side that we feel like we can almost empathize our way to an incredible deal, even if we don't have leverage.

And that's just not the case.

Well, in some instances, people don't even use empathy.

People just come in there and just... demand this.

And I mean, sometimes they get laughed out the door respectfully.

Oftentimes in my space, they get laughed out the door disrespectfully.

And they're telling you, hey, you're an idiot and great.

Have a good one.

Exactly.

Yeah, man.

Let's get deeper into leverage.

So let's just start off with the fundamentals.

When you think about leverage, how do you define it?

And then let's talk about how we can actually use it.

Oh, that's great.

Okay.

When I think about leverage, it's having something that if one person does this on a very simplistic level, it's this one person I'm in talks with about getting something done.

This person also wants what this person has.

The goal is to keep both of them, not knowing which either side it has or is offering, and to leverage the two to make the market value go up.

Just like, let's say an auction, right?

$2,500 here.

Do I got three?

Do I have three?

Going once, going twice.

I got three over here.

And they just keep going up and up and up and up, right?

But each side, who's bidding on?

Whatever they're bidding on, they have a number in their mind that they're going to stop at.

Absolutely.

And your goal is still to get them to exceed that.

Bingo.

So this is really good.

This is really good because I was doing a presentation, a LinkedIn live event yesterday, talking about when, knowing when to walk away.

And I know that's one of the things that you cover.

So we'll get to that in a second.

And one of the questions that somebody asked is it was hey, should I be?

I've always only negotiated with one person, one entity, one organization at one time.

Is that a bad decision?

And based on the way that you're describing it, one of the major sources of leverage is the competitive market that you can create for yourself, your product, your service, whatever it happens to be.

And if you can create that bidding war, then you can leverage one party against another to increase the value of the deal.

Correct.

And just as we're talking about leverage and that's the main focus point right now we're talking about in my space at least you have to create marketability right.

If nobody knows your name, well, then you may not have leverage because nobody knows who you are.

So I think from my background, being a marketer, working at Nike, working at Coca-Cola, working at Procter & Gamble, marketing is something that is extremely important to increase somebody's value, right?

We see people all the time get jobs that are not qualified enough or they don't know what they're talking about.

Or people say that even about me or you, right?

But I market myself.

Therefore, you know who I am.

Therefore, we're able to have a conversation.

But if nobody knows you, you can be the best person in Idaho, right?

But if nobody knows you, nobody's calling you for that service.

So you have to market yourself and market your clients in order to create leverage.

Absolutely.

And I think this is something that people often miss, right?

Because they can fundamentally, conceptually understand the concept of leverage the way they were describing it.

But then when you say, oh, well, I have a marketing background, you have to market yourself.

And they say, well, Henry is working with these high class athletes.

Of course, they have a big brand.

But we don't recognize how we as everyday professionals and individuals can start to create more leverage just by leveraging our personal brand, and because we don't think of ourselves as maybe a celebrity or a thought leader, a lot of people don't take the time to build their personal brand.

So can you go deeper into this and how we can kind of blend those concepts of marketing and personal branding?

Yeah yeah, it's going to be difficult, something i've never seen anybody talk about before.

But right, your brand is what introduces yourself before you even walk in the room right, so that's important, and there can be negative and positive stigmas based on your brand, and the negatives can help you just as much as the positives at times.

So, doing it in an authentic way.

You know, i am from the bay area and we're not a very uh, we don't like to do, we're not very showy, we like to get things done and let people talk about it.

We're not really like self braggers, you know.

So Marketing yourself can be difficult, but for me, marketing yourself and creating your brand is just putting yourself in uncomfortable situations, which puts you in rooms, or allowing people to hear you that may never have heard you or talked about you at all.

Agreed.

That helps create your brand.

For sure, man.

This is great.

Let's now talk about walking away because you're in these high stakes negotiations.

Not all deals are meant to be made.

And so first I want to talk to you about how you come to that conclusion.

When do you know it's time to walk away?

Well, I mean, rejection is God's protection at times, right?

So I live on that.

I've been rejected by many clients or many clients and many deals haven't worked out.

And When it becomes something that you're just not going to take or you're comfortable with or okay with walking away from it, then you walk away.

I mean, I think it's very hard to go into it and make it so that everybody can understand it or it can be applied to everybody in any situation, because every situation is different, right.

I wasn't willing to walk away from creating this book, right?

I got rejected by 26 publishing companies and I did not want to do self-publish.

So I found a way to walk away from self-publishing completely.

That was off the table.

That wasn't an option.

And the publishers told me this would never work.

I said, I'm going to make this work.

I'm going to prove you wrong.

I'm going to send you a copy and I'll make sure all your managers get it because you're stupid.

Right.

I talk like that.

I do.

And it's not always the most greatest, but we all have a little bit of underdog and sometimes it's good.

So I found a hybrid publishing company that believed in the concept, and I put my own money behind it.

I wanted to put it out how I want people to be able to take that knowledge and be able to use it to the best of their ability so that they can succeed.

So I was that you can walk away from things in many different facets.

Absolutely.

And first of all, I love that story because as a fellow author, I know how hard it is.

And kudos to you because I didn't even try to go traditional publishing the first time around.

So kudos to you.

And I love the hybrid route because I've had a number of friends who have been successful with that.

And seeing that dog you have in you, I have no doubt you're going to be successful with it too.

And you bring up a really, really good point too, because There's no way for us to sit here on this podcast as negotiation experts and tell people this is how you know when to walk away with precision in your precise scenario.

It's not possible because we don't know exactly who you are as a listener.

And the thing is, what might be a good deal for one person could be a bad deal for another person.

And so you have to really take the time to look within yourself, to figure out what it is you want and need, and why, and then stand firm in your convictions, in your values, your beliefs, and recognize when it's time to walk.

Yeah, absolutely.

But, and to come to the next segment, trying to like, Help people, give them the tools in whatever facet of life that they're in, and trying to figure out how to walk away from a deal, right.

You have to manage expectations with yourself and you have to figure out what the number is, what's the you know ultimatum is of.

You know when you're going to walk away, what you're just not going to tolerate, what you're going to work with,

That is the most important thing is managing expectations with yourself and those deals.

100, and i want to talk about that too, because we understand that we need to manage our expectations, and i think it's a lot easier for us to see it in other people like hey listen man, what you're thinking is possible, that's ridiculous.

We can see it really easily, but for us, inside of ourselves, we have this self-serving by it, right.

So we're saying, oh no, i deserve something that might be astronomical.

And so, when we're thinking about managing our own expectations, How can we do that in a way that is objective and firmly rooted in reality?

Because a lot of people struggle with that.

Yeah.

It's knowing your comps, knowing what the competition is and going to the person that's done what you're trying to do and seek advice from them.

You know, if you've never seen somebody get a 50 million deal for this specific position group, and it's 80 higher than the closest paid person, well then you're not managing expectations correctly.

And I'll give credit right now to all of my competitors and counterparts in the running back market.

I think all those agents are doing a phenomenal job.

Right now there's a holdout, not a holdout.

There's a gang of running backs that are really really good players, that are not accepting deals that are not fair to their position, the beating that their bodies are taking.

So they're attempting to hold out on the deals they've been offered and take the franchise tag that they've been offered and just play with that and better themselves to increase the value of the overall market.

So some of them may have been offered let's say, four for 40 million with 20 or 30 million guaranteed and they're accepting only the 10 million right now, that they're going to get this season, or 10, 10 million, some change and they're just they're doing i mean they're doing something that's very risky but it's very necessary for change.

That's so cool for a number of reasons because we think about the relationship you have with your clients, but then you also have to think about the relationship that you and your client have with each individual franchise.

And then, especially when you think about the concept of leverage, we recognize that a lot of times we're competing with other franchises and other individuals, so we often look at them as competitors.

But now we're seeing how those same negotiation skills could be utilized even with competitors to say hey listen, I'm being treated unfairly.

Are you being treated unfairly?

Yeah, you are too.

We should gather our resources because independently, we're not strong enough to create this change.

But if we come together, we can.

And so they created their own leverage.

Bingo.

Oh, that's great.

So it all ties back into one another.

There's multiple ways to skin a cat.

So in this scenario, there's numerous ways to create leverage.

And they're creating it through a different, you know, unique way.

Absolutely.

And I think that gives us a great segue to this next point, talking about creating a framework for the deal.

And so, when you're thinking about the way that you're approaching these big negotiations, what type of frameworks do you put into place?

Yeah.

For a lot of people, right, it's what is the... the client's expectations right what is like before we talk about framework i'm sorry i'm bouncing right here a little bit but before you're talking about framework right and what are the confines of the deal you have to manage the expectations hey what are you guys look what is the client looking for right what are me as the agent what am i looking for and why am i looking for what is the team looking for and what are they looking for And then you create that pot and you see if everybody's on the same page or have the same or in the same vicinity of what we're talking about.

Then you create the framework of the deal.

Okay.

You guys want to do no signing bonus. but you want to increase the guaranteed dollar value.

Okay, this is the amount of years we're looking for.

This is between the ballpark of range of the amount of money you want the deal to look like.

These are the things we're not willing to accept.

These are some of the things we're willing to accept.

And then you come up with the framework of the actual confines of the different buckets you're placing money into or that you're coming up with for the deal.

Then you're trying to increase that and they're trying to decrease that, right?

And so that's how you're creating framework and managing the process of a deal.

It is an art.

Absolutely.

Because it starts with the internal conversation internal within your team, you and your clients.

They might have astronomical expectations that you need to manage.

And so you need to negotiate with them to get on the same page with regard to those expectations.

And then you need to figure out what is a type of deal within which framework we can offer to the other side and start the negotiations, while understanding That they're going to try to chip away at that value and you're going to be trying to hold your own keeping that value together.

But you don't just come to the table with the franchise and say, so what are you thinking?

And then let the conversation meander without some direction.

I think it's really important for people to understand like we're getting an understanding of what the topics are, what are our upper and lower bounds on those topics, and then you use that preparation to guide your negotiation.

100%.

So, I mean, you continually prepare.

So once you kind of figure out what you and the client want and what the team's expectations are I mean for me we're always gathering numbers and data and different statistics to figure out where our clients are kind of at at any given point in time as far as their trajectory to get paid.

I mean it starts from when they get drafted and where they get drafted or where they get placed as free agents or where they don't.

I mean, you're always...

Creating leverage and then going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out the framework of what that next deal will look like or what the team may be coming to you with to try to either get you to restructure.

And oftentimes a restructure is going down.

You're being paid less.

And why?

So you need to combat that and always be ready for, okay, this client's not doing well.

This could potentially happen, but here are some of the things, the clauses in the contract that we have to enable them to restructure, or we could walk away and just take the guaranteed money that we already have.

Yeah.

All right.

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It's time to turn those what-ifs into...

That makes sense.

And I want to wrap up with when we are walking away.

What does that conversation look like with the other side?

It can be very, very positive.

Hey, I really appreciate your time.

I don't think we can get a deal down at this price, always still closing.

Let's recircle back at this date or a later time to try to figure out if we can come closer to grips with a fair number that we both can agree upon, so that that's one way to walk away.

That's, you know, one of the better ways to keep the conversation.

Keep the door always open.

Or it could be hey, I we're going to move on to another team.

Thank you so much for your time.

We have another deal on the table.

This is your last and final chance to match this, this number we're talking about or beat it, or it could be.

Sometimes it can get a lot more emotional than that, depending on the situation.

I've been in a number of, you know, pfa or free agency conversations.

When a player goes undrafted and there's not a lot of rules, they can get very heated at times and they can try to use some um very tough or brash for negotiation tactics, but those usually only work on people that lie or that don't another leverage or are affected by emotion.

I'm going to see you again.

I'm going to be here and if i have a player you want to well, you're going to call me.

So there's no need to necessarily walk away from the deal with anger towards one another, because you're going to see each other again every year.

So I wish I had a great soundbite for you to finish this off with.

But I think that your podcast is amazing.

And I think what you're providing us is you are interviewing people that have been to where other people want to go, and they're providing that information and giving those messages for free to others, which is amazing, right.

Something I wish I had when I was a kid before technology got to where it's at today.

Thanks, man.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, that's what we're trying to do.

Just pay it forward.

And that's what you've been doing with the work that you do with your clients.

But now you're putting it out into the world with this new book.

I'm pumped for you, man.

It's so important.

And listeners.

We're going to put a link to Henry's company, to the book and everything else, and LinkedIn as well.

You're active on that too.

So you can keep in touch and get the book.

But Henry, man, really, really appreciate you coming on the show today.

Out from Vegas, making time for us.

Man, it means a lot.

Thank you.

I appreciate you, brother.

Have a blessed one.

I got to go catch a flight.

You crushed it, man.

Thank you.

That was the first part of today's masterclass.

Up.

Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.

Let's keep it rolling.

Sam, thanks for joining us today.

It's good to be here.

Thanks for having me, Kwame.

It is my pleasure.

So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, absolutely.

So my name is Sam Struan.

I'm a talent acquisition or recruitment professional.

I've been in the industry for about 10 years, working in both executive search environments or leading internal talent acquisition teams.

And now most of my focus is working with individuals, job seekers in particular, or individuals that are looking to make significant changes to their career in terms of compensation.

So my two main focuses are resume writing and being a salary negotiation coach.

I love it.

And everybody make sure you follow Sam, because this is the first ever installment of People You Should Follow on LinkedIn.

So that's how I found Sam, just dropping incredibly high quality content on LinkedIn.

So we're going to link to his profile in the description of this episode.

And we're going to change it up a little bit with this episode.

We're going to start off by talking about two of Sam's most popular posts and just kind of analyzing why it resonated with the audience.

And then we're going to talk about counter proposals in salary negotiation, a very narrow element of the compensation negotiation that is often overlooked.

So I'm super excited to get into this.

So Sam, how would you set the stage with this first viral post that you made that was, let's say, replicated by many people in the industry afterwards?

And when people start doing what you just did, that's a good sign.

So can you set the stage with that post?

Yeah, absolutely.

I say that in hoping that the main person to come up with it and hopefully I've not plagiarized it, but it seems like nothing's new nowadays.

But yeah, the post that you're referring to was a very short post, but I think it resonated with people because the essence of the post was putting the candidate in the driving seat.

And I think that's often not the case when it comes to the recruitment and hiring process is we're very much subject to how companies and recruiters and hireers

The post.

In essence, the main thing was when it comes to answering early stage salary questions, which there are multiple options.

But this in particular was when you decide to give a range.

And it basically said you know, the key point was never say I'm looking to make 150 to 170000 or whatever your number is.

Instead, say I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 170,000.

And that's when you're asked you know what's your salary requirement and if you decide to give a range,

And the reason being is when you say something like hey, I'm looking to make 150 to 170000, that's a very aspirational statement.

I want, I hope, I'm looking.

And it can be interpreted as I'm hoping to make 150, but I'm currently earning less.

Whereas when you say something like I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 170000, this is situational saying I'm currently interviewing.

And it also tells the interviewer that the market is saying that you're worth 150 to 170 or again, whatever your number is, but also that you're in demand from other companies.

And that is human nature to want what others want.

But also by putting in early in the conversation that you are having multiple discussions.

This will actually help you when it comes to negotiating your offer and is a key component in the counteroffer process.

This is a gem and we're at almost a thousand episodes of the podcast.

This is something I'm into this, right?

I've never heard this one before.

It's so powerful.

It is really powerful.

And so I want you to dig deeper into the psychology of this.

What is the impact that it has on the person who's saying it, but also the person who is hearing it?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'll actually share.

No one really knows this, but this actually came from.

This was a throwaway post that came from a conversation with a friend.

A friend of mine was really uncomfortable talking salary to numbers and was in the middle of a job search.

And I very casually asked him.

I said when you were speaking with this company, and they said what's your salary requirement?

What did you say?

And he said, oh, I said, I'm looking to make A to X to Y salary.

And my immediate thought was, oh, like, dude, that sounds like aspirational.

It sounds like I know you're earning less and it sounds like you're earning less.

And I coached him and I said, look, I need you to cut that out of your vocabulary.

You're not looking for anything.

You're currently interviewing for positions X to Y. So he used that then moving forward.

And I thought, I'll just throw that up on LinkedIn.

Again, throw away post, thinking it wouldn't get too much interest, but it obviously struck a chord with individuals.

Now I think you mentioned the psychology or how it changes things for the individual is.

Many people have told me they feel more confident saying that statement when asked that question.

It gives them confidence to answer the question.

It gives them clarity.

But also, I think, when it comes to salary and answering questions, A lot of it is communication is obviously what you say, but it's how you say it, how someone sees what they're actually looking at.

So I think there's all those unspoken forms of communication that can come through when you have a statement like that behind you.

Bingo.

You're spot on.

And the thing is, it sounds stronger.

It sounds more confident.

And we have to remember, just at the end of the day, we are social primates and we are designed to look for higher

And we are constantly evaluating situations and individuals for strength versus weakness status prestige, those type of things.

And it sounds shallow and it is.

And at the same time, it is just a reality of our psychology.

So we have to be mindful of not just what we say, but how we say it.

The presentation is part of the persuasive process.

And if we miss out on these little nuances, then the person isn't going to have that same level of regard for you.

And as a result, they might say, that sounds cute.

I hope you eventually get to that number.

But I know you seem like the kind of person who would accept less.

And a lot of times, just because of the way that we approach the negotiation, we can inadvertently invite more aggressive negotiation tactics from the other person because they feel they can get away with it.

What you said oh, that's cute, i hope you get that.

That might be the reaction of someone you know.

That may be someone's internal reaction if you say oh well, i'm looking to make 150 to 170 versus.

Yeah sure, i'm actually currently interviewing for positions that pay 150 to 70 total, different delivery and anything.

Part of the reason that I write so much on LinkedIn is I want to really empower as many people as possible to feel confident in the job search.

But I also feel like organizations, corporations, there's always been this long standing imbalance of power where candidates are really at the mercy of what a company wants to offer, how someone wants to behave and anything that I can do to kind of balance that or make people feel a little bit more empowered or in control of their search.

Take my stuff, you know, go earn the most that you can make a difference to your family, make a difference to your earning trajectory, your income.

Like I'm all for that.

Absolutely.

And this gives us an opportunity to revisit one of the things you said at the beginning, because you said, a response like this puts the candidate in the driver's seat.

And then just now you said a lot of times, because of the imbalance, we're at the mercy of these corporations.

And this is one of those little things that allows us to rebalance that.

So I want to explore that term, that phrase, put the candidate in the driver's seat.

I think this is so powerful and I don't want people to overlook this too.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think throughout the many stages of the interview process or the hiring process or job seeking process from initially writing your resume, applying for a job, waiting on interviews, multiple interviews, counter offers, like i mentioned, there's a real imbalance there at times, but i do think that with each step there are things that job seekers and candidates can do to really control the narrative and control the outcome of their search.

And this is just an example of a very small tweak that can have significant differences and i find that throughout the search process but does sometimes come down to just small tweaks.

How you say something, how you reword something on your resume or your LinkedIn profile or later on, when we talk about counter offers.

At the end of the day, we're just asking for more money.

That's what it can be brought down to.

How you do it, the nuances and the little tweaks can make a significant difference And anything that can do to kind of share those like minor tweaks or little differences that make, that will kind of move the needle for someone or give an element of like empowerment or confidence to someone.

I think that's really important.

Absolutely.

And a lot of it comes down to preparation, too.

So we shouldn't be surprised when these types of questions come up.

And the more prepared we are, the more confident we'll sound in our response.

And I think that gives us an opportunity to revisit that other post.

The second post that I wanted to highlight, where the person asks the question

What are your salary expectations?

So let's break down that question.

First of all, let's just talk about the game behind the game that the person asking the question is.

If the company hasn't posted the job salary range in the job advert.

Usually when someone asks what are your salary expectations,

There's a few reasons.

Number one is they want to know how well do you know your professional worth?

They just want to know how well.

If a new graduate is asking for 200000, there's maybe a misalignment there, where they're not asking for a realistic salary based on their experience.

How well do you know your worth? kind of roughly are you at appropriate professional level?

And obviously they want to know if they can afford you.

A recruiter is unlikely going to move forward with a candidate who is asking for 60000 more than what they've been given as a budget.

But if it's within 5000 to 10000, there might be wiggle room.

Unfortunately, this conversation, i would say, is the predominant thing that happens when it comes to interviews is candidates don't have salary information at the time of applying and then, you know, a hiring manager or recruiter will ask what are your salary expectations.

So i would say that's the most common scenario when it comes to asking for money.

There's a lot of advice on how you should respond to this, ranging from give a range, give a number Deflect, ask them what their budget is.

And a lot of people will say this is the only route you should take.

But my argument would be you actually have multiple options when you're asked what are your salary expectations.

And it could be any one of those aforementioned paths.

But it also all depends on your profession.

I love it.

And now this is both empowering and then for some it might also be overwhelming recognizing that there are even more options than we originally thought when it comes to this really crucial question.

So, as people are determining how to respond to this, given their specific, specific situation, what are some of the things that people should keep in mind as they're going through this analysis and their preparation?

Sure thing.

What I can do is maybe share the path that I would potentially take, depending on the situation that I'm in.

So you're right.

What are your salary expectations?

There are multiple options and it can be overwhelming to decide which path should I take and which is appropriate.

But sharing maybe on some personal experiences from myself and working with clients.

Here's just a few examples that might be useful to anyone listening.

So I mentioned there's a few options and that was give a range, give a number or deflecting and potentially asking for the company's budget.

And you can essentially do all three.

But my own approach would depend kind of where I am in terms of leverage and the situation that I'm in.

So quick example is I would give a range if I knew what the position paid and I was trying to maximize my salary.

So let's say the job advert said the range is $130,000 to $150,000.

Then in that scenario, if I was asked what are your salary expectations, I would say something like I'm currently interviewing for positions that pay 145000 to 165000.

I would basically want my bottom number to come in just below their top number, and then my top number would exceed their budget.

And that would ensure and signal to them that they're going to have to offer at the top end of their budget in order to meet my salary requirements.

So you're still falling within their budget, but you're narrowing the gap that they can offer you to ensure that you get the top end of the budget.

I would do that typically.

I say I would take that route because I feel confident negotiating.

I feel confident that even if I didn't meet all the requirements, I would be able to address those through thorough interview preparation.

And I would take that bet on myself.

You might not be able to do that if you don't meet all the requirements and you feel like you might be up against other candidates that have a lot more experience or maybe you're not fully confident in, or a bit more junior in your career, in which case you can modify that range to still fall with their range.

But typically most people that i work with are like i want to maximize my earning capacity.

I want to be able to do what i can.

So that is an example of when i would give a range is if i knew what the position paid, or i knew I'm not earning less than 130 to 150.

$130 is my absolute minimum, so I'm going to go above.

So that is one option.

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This is great.

I love that one because it gives you an opportunity to be flexible.

It gives you a little bit of wiggle room, but it sends a strong signal to the other side of what it is that you are willing to accept.

So don't try that lower range type of stuff or with me in this situation.

But it requires you to know the numbers and do your research.

You can negotiate more confidently and more assertively when you have a more realistic expectation of what those numbers are.

So sometimes when you're applying for a job, you can see it.

You can see the pay band.

It's very clear.

What do you think people could do to try to get that information in their research process so they could make this more assertive?

Type of initial offer.

Absolutely.

And you touched upon the key thing, which is research.

Typically, if I was to give a range, I've definitely conducted market research on what similar roles might pay at similar sized organizations.

If we're talking in the US market.

Given that quite a few states have salary transparency regulations where employers have to post a range, it's really helpful.

If you're in a state where there is no requirement, then you could look at jobs in other states to find out.

Okay, this is roughly what they're paying.

That's real market data because a software engineer in X states, the range is this.

So you can use that as a data point.

Obviously, the average cost of a home varies per state, but it's still a valid data point.

It's within the country, it's the same currency, similar organizations.

I guess the key components of giving a range is what if you gave a range of 130 to 150 but their budget was 160 to 180?

So they might offer you 160, but you've actually like 150.

Sorry, but you've actually left 30000 on the table because they were their budget.

Now, that's obviously a risk.

It's an even higher risk if you don't know how to negotiate.

And usually you can determine if you think you've left money on the table or if their budget is higher when you go through multiple interview rounds, because you truly understand the size of the scope and you get more information that you don't have early on in the process.

So in that scenario which I've been in, where I've given a range and then later on they definitely have more budget,

And also the role is much larger in scope than I originally thought.

You can negotiate more.

You just need to discuss what's changed.

And we can talk about that later on, when it comes to a counteroffer as well is how to ask for more money when you've already given a range.

Oh, that's great.

That is great.

And now I need to establish a little bit of restraint because I really want to jump to that now.

But there's one other element.

I want to talk about the times where it might be more strategic or ask for their budget.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So that was the other great option.

One of the other options that someone can take is to deflect and ask what the company's budget is.

But if you take this route, you have to do it quite sensitively or delicately or strategically.

So, and I would typically say that people who can ask for a number more easily are ones that are happily employed, or perhaps the organization has approached them, has headhunted or directly approached them.

Or perhaps you know that there's just absolutely no way that you're going to go below a number.

Yeah, sure.

Kwame, you mentioned about deflecting and asking what the company's budget is.

And I would perhaps take that route if I knew that I was in high demand, or perhaps I knew that I fit what they were looking for.

And I would definitely deflect and ask if I was earlier on in the stage or given very few details about the role.

And perhaps I haven't had time to do market research or I've not found the market research that I'm looking for.

So in this situation where someone says, what are your salary requirements or expectations?

I don't want to give an answer.

I want to find out what their budget is.

I'd say something like, thank you for asking.

I would be happy to discuss compensation after I've learned a little bit more about the position and conduct some additional market research.

Alternatively, can you share what has been preliminary budgeted for the role?

So that's just the polite way to deflect.

If I was unemployed, I didn't want to give a range, then I would tweak my messaging.

Because when you're unemployed and when you get asked about salary, your biggest fear is either coming in too low or coming in too high, pricing yourself out of the conversation or leaving significant amount of money on the table.

So in that situation, I would deflect and ask, but I would say something like, thanks for asking.

I would be open to a range that reflects the market rate for positions like this.

From my initial research, I've noticed this range can be anywhere from 90,000 to 120,000.

How does this align with what the company has budgeted for the role?

Now, the key thing about an answer like this, Kwame, is...

You're saying that you're open to a range that reflects market research or market rate.

You're saying, I still want to be paid fairly.

And then you're not saying my range is 90 to 120.

You're saying from the research I've conducted I've noticed it can range from X to Y.

So you yourself are not committing to a range.

You're saying the range I've noticed is over here.

How does yours compare to that?

So I think that is better than kind of saying...

I'm open to anything and my range is 90 to 120, which is quite a wide range.

That can signal to someone that you'll go as low as 90, but you're really hoping for 120.

It makes a lot of sense.

And I love the fact that we are tweaking the messaging for the circumstance.

So there are going to be some times where you have a little bit more leverage and security.

So if I'm happily employed and I'm not looking for something and you're trying to court me, you need to give me more information in order for me to feel interested in this, because the status quo works for me.

But there's something in you that makes you want me.

So give me the information first.

Right.

And of course, you're saying it in a more diplomatic way than that.

But that's essentially the ethos behind it.

But then if we're unemployed, recognizing that our position isn't as strong because our alternative isn't as strong,

So we can utilize the same approach, but in a more deferential type of way.

So you're not saying, hey, this isn't me asking for this.

I've just seen other people get.

So where are you on that?

And I think that would be more well received by the party on the other side.

So I love the fact that we are still utilizing the same fundamental negotiation principles and strategies, but just acknowledging that, given the circumstances and given your position and the power dynamics at play, it will flex as necessary for the circumstances.

Definitely.

I think that's what's missed out in a lot of advice.

When it comes to answering that question is the routes that you take really does depend on your leverage and exactly what you said your alternative situation.

Yeah.

Oh, this is good.

And now, with the time we have left, I want to make sure that we can talk about negotiation counter proposition, critical part of the compensation negotiation process but often overlooked.

So, first of all, let's start off by just talking about what it is that we're talking about with negotiation counter proposals and why this element is so important.

Sure thing Kwame.

So what we've done is we've spent a lot of time talking about early stage salary questions, questions and how to navigate those.

And the reason I wanted to bring that up is because that's really when salary negotiation begins is early on in the process.

As soon as you're asked what your salary expectations, you need to set the stage for you to allow yourself to negotiate down the line.

So that's why it's really important to start focusing on those questions.

But where we are and what the topic is today, or what we're moving on to, is the counteroffer or the counteroffer process, where a company has provided you with a job offer, either verbally, in writing and

You want to negotiate that offer.

And that is what we're going to be discussing is how to put together a strategic counteroffer to hopefully either maximize your earnings or give you the best kind of working relationship that you're looking for.

I love it.

And let's start off by having a little bit of fun, Sam.

And I know what you're thinking, but Kwame, I've been having so much fun.

Exactly.

I have been having so much fun.

Let's start off by talking about some of the biggest mistakes people make at this point, before we start talking about the best practices.

Sure thing.

I think the biggest mistakes that I see this is usually when someone has tried to negotiate an offer and it's not gone well.

And then they come to me and say, like, I didn't get what I wanted.

What do I do from here?

Not a great situation for me.

It's kind of like when someone builds something in your home and someone does a really bad job and like coming in builders they hate fixing other people's mistakes.

But usually the biggest mistakes that I see are individuals not having a structure, of a proper structure to their counteroffer, whether it's in writing or verbally, or bringing in personal feelings or circumstances, personal feeling like I feel after 10 years of X Y, Z.

I am worth this.

Or I am looking to save up for a down payment and buy a home.

I feel I am, you know, can we can I have more?

These are personal feelings or situations which, quite frankly, are not the organization's problem.

It's not the company's problem.

It's not the company's responsibility to help you buy a house.

So those are some of the biggest mistakes is removing anything personal, any feelings or situations or partners or spouses, husbands and wives, their personal opinions.

Don't bring any of that to the table.

A counter offer and negotiation should always be about the value that you bring to the organization from your skill sets and your experience.

This is so strong because a lot of times we have to recognize that there is a difference between a strategic thought and emotional thought.

Emotional thoughts are often going to be louder in our head, because sometimes people are in this position where they're negotiating salary, especially when they haven't done it before, where they're at their wits end.

They're like, you know what?

I deserve this.

I haven't been paid the right way.

Jerry over in accounting is making more than me.

Are you kidding me?

And now my wife is telling me I should be making at least as much as Jerry.

And so we bring all of that baggage in and then we make that offer to the other side, focused on those feelings.

And the person is like, you know what?

That sounds like a you problem, because that doesn't help us make any money, which is the core function of this business.

And so it takes a lot of emotional restraint withhold something that is really, really key to what is bringing you to the negotiation table to make sure that we are persuading from their perspective.

What is it that would actually be meaningful for them in this conversation?

And a lot of the things that are most central to us coming to the negotiation table don't matter as much to the other side.

And so we have to temper that enthusiasm with a little bit of restraint and think a little bit more strategically and speak a little bit more strategically as well.

Definitely.

I think I always have to remind people that the negotiation isn't between you and the person.

It's between you and the company, and think about what the company as a separate entity wants.

So that's one of the key things.

And what I can discuss as well is so that your audience and anyone listening has an actual structure to go away with is a five step counteroffer structure which has helped one of my clients negotiate an extra 50000 in salary.

That's actually my record is helping someone get an extra 50K on top of an offer.

I'm really proud of that.

But the recommendation that I have and the final one, the final step in this five step counteroffer structure that I'm about to share, I'd say the final step is what 99 of people fail to do.

So the recommendation if someone gets an offer that they want to negotiate and they want to respond via counteroffer, These are the five steps that I recommend.

The first is to confirm interest and gratitude.

You want to show that you're still very interested in this role and gratitude can counter kind of perceptions of greed.

You're asking for more money, more vacation, more bonus.

You don't want to come across as greedy.

So gratitude is a great counter to that.

So that's step one is confirm interest and gratitude.

And then what you want to do is recall some of the company's pain points.

You want to reframe their pain points as goals to achieve.

And you will know this from the interview process.

So an example is if I'm interviewing and the company says we're struggling to get candidates and we need to grow 30 percent over this year.

We can't find enough staff to fulfill our service.

Then you want to reframe those pain points pain points as goals that you're going to achieve by saying something like throughout the interview process I was really interested in learning that the company is looking to grow and source more skilled candidates for this line of business.

So you want to reframe those pain points.

Your third step is reiterating your experience, fixing those pain points or showing you as the solution by reiterating some of your key experiences that help alleviate those company problems.

Then obviously you want to make the ask whether it's salary bonus, vacation.

Quick tip is if you want to negotiate three points, negotiate all three points at once.

Don't negotiate one, get a yes.

Then bring up another point, get a yes, bring up another point.

That will result in negotiation fatigue on both parts.

So if you have multiple asks, ask for one.

So steps one to four.

Just a quick summary before i give you.

Step five is number one was confirmed interesting gratitude.

Number two was reframe their pain points as goals that you are excited about meeting.

Three was reiterating your experience fixing those pain points.

Number four was making the ask for what you want.

And then number five, which I would say is one of the most key things, is closing the employer.

A lot of people will make the ask and say, would you consider an increase to 180,000?

Thanks, I look for your response.

But you need to close the employer.

And closing involves you've made an ask for something. more salary, more vacation, more bonus.

You have to offer something in return, something to sweeten the deal or to incentivize them to really offer what you want.

And one of the things that candidates can offer is assurance.

An example of this is once you've gone through steps one to four and said would company consider 180000?

You know, an extra week of vacation.

Here's my market research that reflects this.

I would say if Company, consider this.

I would feel more comfortable withdrawing from other interview processes and also prepare to provide notice at my current company.

So what you're saying is, if you can come close of this number, consider this number.

Whatever this package is, what I'm going to give you in return is I'm going to pull out of other interviews.

I'm also going to start to give notice at my current company.

So you're putting the offer in your shoes of like, oh, OK, like this person's serious.

They're going to give notice.

If you're unemployed then you can say I would feel more comfortable formally withdrawing from other interview processes.

Now, if anyone's been listening from the start of this podcast, one of the earliest things that I mentioned was always saying I am currently interviewing for positions that pay X to Y, And the reason that statement is doubly powerful is because now in the negotiation, that is your bargaining chip, that you are saying I will formally withdraw from other interview processes, which you referenced at the start of the interview process.

So that is a powerful closer.

Wow.

This is some high level stuff, man.

And you even brought in a little bit of Inception referencing one of my favorite movies there.

Incepted them at the beginning by confidently stating your range and the fact that you're exploring other offers.

Oh man, this is a masterclass.

I really appreciate this.

And again, I just really want to make sure the listeners really feel on a visceral level how powerful this is, because 50000 that you helped this person earn is It was salary that they could have claimed.

And if they didn't, the company would have just given them a lower offer and they would have been performing at that level.

But there's money on the table that we deserve, that we should go for.

So you should ask for it.

And then when you think about compound interest, it's $50,000 increased and then on into perpetuity.

And then when you consider that every ceiling is a new floor, which means that you're going to negotiate from that level onward, we're talking about Over the course of somebody's life, this is millions of dollars, right?

Especially when you consider investment opportunities and things like that.

So I just want to reiterate that for the listeners out there who are negotiating the salary.

Now you have a framework.

No more excuses.

It's time to get moving.

And then, of course, if you need more inspiration, follow Sam on LinkedIn, because he's constantly dropping these gems.

So Sam, I want to give you the floor to say any parting words and let listeners know how they can connect.

Yeah, a huge thank you, Kwame, for inviting me on this.

I really appreciate it and hope those points that have been brought up in the podcast really help any listeners.

And the reason I'm so passionate about this area is because when I learned to properly negotiate an offer and got what I felt I deserved but also it was a significant increase and that led to a lot of positive lifestyle changes or the ability.

It wasn't about buying fancy things and two main things that i invested in.

Number one was i was able to like upgrade my mom's kitchen, which brought me so much joy, to be able to like express gratitude and pay someone back or help someone and personal note was able to invest in counseling.

Those are the things that I think earning more or being able to tap into additional resources can really elevate someone's life.

So it's not necessarily about money buying more happiness, but money enabling as opportunities to find more happiness.

So thank you again for having me on your podcast.

I appreciate it.

Hey, my pleasure.

Thanks again for joining us.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.

Let's dive in.

Anjali, thanks for joining us today.

Hi, thank you very much.

I'm very honoured.

I hear so much about you and I'm very lucky that you've asked me to talk to you today.

You can see what I was doing.

I'm doing the praising, the celebrating of Kwame.

Thank you.

No, this is great.

And I've heard so many good things about you too.

And that's because we have our incredible friend Mark between us, just floating compliments both ways.

So shout out to Mark Davis for this connection.

Indeed.

How would you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Well, so I work in the negotiation field and I've done so for the last 15 years.

Previous to that, I won't bore everyone.

I was in consultancy and recruitment.

No, I'm not the devil.

I truly did believe in helping people get jobs that they wanted and helping clients find the right people.

I started New Beginnings, our business.

As you can well imagine, that was quite a scary time for everybody.

But I was thinking, why?

Why have I done this and why now?

What we do is we deliver negotiation training and leadership training and sales, but we focus very much around the collaboration part of negotiation, very much around out with the old and in with collaboration.

Now no more thumping chests, egos in the room and deals being lost because people come to deadlocks.

A little bit about me.

I live in the UK.

You know typical, actually typical English person dog cat, horse and typical right.

I actually am a typical English person.

When I say it out loud, I realize I am that.

And yeah, I still don't mind him living in the house.

And I haven't decided that he needs to go to university yet.

I love it.

This is great.

I'm super excited about this episode.

And listeners, if you've listened to the show before, you know that I love to ask this question.

So I give guests the option.

Hey, we could either go with what you paired or we can go with surprise door number two.

Angelique went with surprise door number two.

So we'll just start off with the same question.

What is it about human interaction in general that's giving you the most energy right now?

What I love is seeing and I know this sounds cheesy and twee, but what gives me the energy that makes me bounce around the room is actually seeing people learn and change their behaviours and have confidence.

Not just talk at them and hope that by osmosis they learn something through our negotiation, but actually seeing them grow and develop themselves personally, for me, is what gets me out of bed.

And I did say to you earlier on, the first one really is my son.

I have to say it is.

I'm going to be the mum that does do that.

He is.

But second is I love seeing change in people.

It's just a great feeling when you see someone coming scared worried upset annoyed angry bewildered, don't know how to do many things in their workplace.

And then you see the massive change when I do the one to one coaching.

What better feeling can you have than that?

And it makes it worth all those the sales calls that you have.

Where say, someone's saying no, we're not interested, or pushing the business forward when we do have the work that we get.

It's just an amazing feeling.

So yeah, got a serious face there Kwame.

I was just thinking.

I was like it sounds so familiar because I talk about this all the time and listeners who are listening in the audio version of this just notes talking about being stereotypically British.

I believe Anjali just sipped on some tea.

So yeah.

Point that one out for you.

But it's so important.

And I think again, sometimes we can get lost in the weeds, especially if we're negotiation experts who teach this all the time.

And we can teach people negotiation skills.

We can talk at them and all that stuff.

And they might leave and understand it.

But if we are not able to give them that core element of confidence and belief, they won't put the tools into action.

Absolutely.

100%.

And they all look at negotiation in particular.

As you well know.

They do think it's a process, that there's a magic to the end of it.

If I follow this process, if I follow it one two three four five, I'm going to get my end result.

They take out the human side of it, the building relationships, the building trust, understanding how important it is to collaborate, even if it is just a transactional negotiation.

It's a small world.

And if you're rude and arrogant with that one person because it's just a one-off transaction, you never know you might meet them one day later on, when you're pitching to somebody and they go.

Oh, I remember you, Kwame.

I remember how rude you were.

You were rude.

No matter what, I'm not giving you my business and I'm certainly not going to negotiate.

And if I do, I'm going to make it really hard for you.

So it's about interaction there as well, not just giving a full process.

Definitely.

In your experience, when you see those people who are afraid of difficult conversations, who are shying away from those interactions, what is it that shakes their confidence and hurts their belief?

The majority of the time where it's the shake the confidence, it comes twofold.

It's the line manager or the person behind saying, why didn't you get me the deal?

And then they're worrying about A, their job and A, their KPIs.

Didn't they hit them?

Did they get the margin that they need to do it?

So the confidence is not there.

That's devastating. definitely one that we come across all the time.

And the other one is that they've come across somebody who possibly is being really bullish and has left them feeling pretty bad about themselves because it came personal, not just a communication, in a business environment.

So they're the two I see the most of.

Mark will say the same.

We bring the lovely Mr. Mark and he says the same.

We do see that.

The whole team see that a lot.

But it comes to fame.

Someone being rude and arrogant and they've lost that deal because they've been off so much by the rudeness of the interaction.

And then obviously the line manager understanding what's happened and how they got to that.

And that's key is that the support from the line manager.

And so the confidence is not completely lost, which they need to then rebuild up to realise that they've got to work for somebody who's going to support them, and understand that something may have gone wrong or timing was not right, or there could have been a new variable that was brought in that wasn't discussed with the leadership team, or et cetera, et cetera.

So it's a bigger picture than just the negotiation we talk about.

It's around having the right leaders supporting decisions and then having people to support through when they're actually negotiating.

What I love the importance of the managers and the leaders in this process of developing the negotiators.

So it's not just the skill set, but also the mindset.

And that can have an impact on both.

The way that the manager leads can have an impact on both.

If they're not supported, they don't feel supported, then they're not going to feel confident at the negotiation table.

And if you don't take the time to empathize and understand the pressures they're going through, then you can't even coach them effectively through the negotiation either.

Absolutely.

You've got a manager who's not looking after you.

They realize that you're going into a negotiation or a sales pitch and they're not supporting you and all it is about the KPI.

Or, for instance, you must come across this, where some clients will just do a tick box exercise and put through people through the programs.

Everyone feels like they've got this amazing gift.

And they go running back into their workplace all excited to use this new experience and gift that they've got.

Then they get sat to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

But can you just go back to what you, because that's what we really wanted.

We just ticked it off there for L&D HR purposes.

And when we work with our clients, we always talk to the line managers and directors to say this is not just for you to then for them to come back and say well, we'd like to change.

We'd like to do something different.

We'd like to use our new skills for them to turn around and say actually no, just carry on doing what you were doing for the last six months.

But hey, you had training.

So that's where we closely with the clients very much.

So that doesn't happen.

There's nothing worse.

It's that open up a gift that you can't play with it.

Now what do I do with it?

I'm not allowed to play with it.

I can't do anything with it.

So it's like having this like great thing in front of you, but you can't do anything with it.

Yeah.

That's powerful because it even goes beyond too, because even if the leader is saying yeah, we'll do training.

That's leadership is just the inescapable difficulty of leading.

There's no way to get away from the fact that that you need to do as a leader just takes time.

So you can't just throw your people into a training.

It's great.

It's your responsibility to encourage them to actually use what they've learned and actually start to develop these new habits.

Otherwise, you're just wasting money and time.

Absolutely.

And it's false hope as well, isn't it?

Because then the employer coming in full of excitement and looking for empathy and a great leader.

And you know what it's like?

I could talk about this for hours regarding leadership around then, building an environment where it's toxic, getting the best out of somebody.

But that's another conversation for another day.

Yes, yes.

One of the other things that you said that I thought was really interesting is that people have interactions with people who are rude disrespectful, maybe bullying or aggressive, and then that turns them off from negotiations that in the moment at the actual negotiation table.

But for a lot of people it could create a little bit of small t trauma where they're saying you know what?

I remember that jerk, I don't want this, I don't want to do this, I'm afraid I might get hurt in that same type of way.

So can you address that fear first and then let's continue to explore how to deal with these tough negotiators too?

So addressing that fear is, when we're coaching, what we do is we just simply talk to them about the fact that they might have had the worst day ever.

OK, think of it that way.

Someone's been really, really rude.

You've got to think about if they're rude all the time, that's just their nature.

There's nothing you can do about that.

You can't.

If they're consistently rude, they're arrogant, that's just their way.

You can't change that.

But what you can do is not change your way and just think well sorry, that's just unfortunate for you that you behave in that way.

Because nobody wants to be arrogant and rude by birth, do they?

You know, we'll wake up and go, do you know what?

Hey.

When I'm five, I'm just going to be going an arrogant git.

So no one actually, no one, oh, we don't have to say git.

So something's happened to that person along the way that's made them that way.

We get our people to start, the people that we work with, to start thinking, do you know what?

That's their problem.

You don't have to behave that way yourself as well.

You don't have to mirror how they're behaving.

Just understand something's gone wrong with them somewhere.

For them to start behaving that way and they've behaved that way, something along that line, whether it be they could have worked for a toxic manager or they had a bad experience, but they haven't had anyone that's helped them through, to actually go back to who they really are.

We're all born good at the end of the day.

It's the circumstance that changes us.

We're herd animals.

It's just different things that happen in our lives that change the way that we behave.

We're all born good.

Wonderful.

So good.

I want to highlight two points here.

You said somebody is rude, disrespectful, mean at that moment.

They might be having a bad day.

If they're always like that, it's their nature.

And neither of those things is necessarily about you.

And I think we take that behavior and we take it personally.

Absolutely.

Why are you doing this to me?

Absolutely.

If you can take a step back and recognize that their behavior is their problem and your job is to just do the best you can.

Yeah.

It really makes it easier for you to perform under that pressure.

Absolutely.

One hundred percent.

They could have woken up, had the most steaming row with their partner and they've gone into the workplace.

They've had a row with them and they have a line manager saying yeah, I want you to cut that margin as well.

At the same time,

I don't care.

You're just going to do it.

And of course, they pick up the phone to somebody or they're in the Zoom teams or whatever.

And then of course, they're just like, just get rid of it.

And then they're like, oh my gosh, what's just happened?

And they're like, oh my, oh my God.

And it's just taking a deep breath and going, right.

Oh, hi.

So call me.

You're not feeling right today.

Are you okay?

Is everything all right?

Fuse the situation by asking, are you okay?

Because actually that does work.

If somebody does that suddenly and they switch, if you've got a good, trusted, collaborative relationship with a supplier buyer and you know them well enough and you've worked with them long enough, you know if they're in a bad mood and something bad's happened, then you know something's afoot.

So you have to just take, it's not about you, it's about what's happening to them at the time.

But if they're consistently angry, then obviously that's just something's happened to them in their past that makes them that way.

But you can't change that.

Yes, find a way around it.

This is really good.

Okay.

So let's actually explore this with specificity, because I don't want people to miss it, because I think it can be a really powerful tactic.

So you're saying if somebody is coming into the meeting and they are atypically upset, so you understand, you have a good relationship with them.

You have an understanding of their baseline and you say this behavior deviates from the baseline.

Let's say somebody just yelled at you.

They exploded.

What do you say to them?

Let's just do the play by play a bit.

All right.

So you just yelled at me, just said right for crying out loud.

You didn't have the right ear.

Oh my God, I'm sorry.

I thought I bought the right headset.

I'm so sorry.

What you do is you take a deep breath.

You'd have to centre yourself, because there's nothing worse than having someone yelling at you, because it really does.

It's upsetting when people shout and yell at you or you have anger towards you.

You feel the heat of it, right?

You centre yourself, deep breaths, take time. and then just say, call me.

Are you okay today?

Is there anything going on?

Do you want to talk about it?

Because we can just part this conversation now.

We can come back to this meeting another time and have another conversation around.

Are you sure you're okay?

And then turn it.

And do you know what happens?

Everyone has always said once I've said that to them and people that behave they said, oh my God, they've just turned around and gone.

Yeah, do you know what?

I've had a really shit day today.

It's been awful.

Do you know what?

It's a Let's do it another day.

Don't force it.

If you've got time, do not force it.

And if that's that situation where someone's come barking at you, unless you've taken 16 planes and a boat ride and everything else.

Do you know what?

Let's go to a bar.

I know it's only 10 in the morning.

Would you like...

A stiff whiskey.

And then let's come back to this two hours later and then let's have that conversation then.

But always to disarm it.

If you respond by like for like, all that happens is it creates even worse atmosphere.

Your negotiation yourselves can forget it.

It won't be a brilliant relationship and it won't be a good outcome in your negotiation.

This is so good.

I think, in addition to the clarity and practicality of the approach, everybody knows exactly what to do, which is great.

It also illuminates a really important strategy in negotiation that often isn't utilized, which is pausing and taking a break.

Think about toddlers.

You have a 17 year old son.

I have a seven year old and a two year old.

Gosh.

Two.

Unbelievable.

The boy cries and screams at me when he does.

He's getting what he wants.

I'm giving you what you want and you're still yelling.

Anyways, this is not me venting.

I'm a podcast host.

Back together.

No, I get it though.

What does he want?

Sweets.

It doesn't matter if it's four in the morning.

It doesn't matter.

Goodness.

But when you're in that situation, you can just take a break.

I'm trying to talk to Dominic, my two-year-old, when he is having a tantrum.

We have to understand that, psychologically speaking, he cannot process what I'm saying.

He's not cognitively capable.

And a lot of times we struggle in these difficult conversations because we're trying to accomplish psychological impossibility.

This person is having such a bad day right now that they are just looking for reasons to attack everyone.

You can't be successful right now, nor could anyone. just because of the barrier.

So if you could inject a little bit of time, just like you said, just two hours or maybe two days, even better.

If you have that luxury of time, take it, because that could be the difference between getting a deal and not getting it.

100%.

And also what it would do.

It gives the person who had the person barking at them angrily, gives them actually confidence that they've controlled the negotiation, they've controlled the climate and they've reset.

And so it's just resetting, isn't it?

Yeah reset exactly, just resetting.

And again, it's almost too simple.

And that's i know, right.

Simple is always good, right?

I think simple is always good.

People try to over complicate things.

They everyone talks about negotiation.

It's just like magical oh, negotiation.

I know only certain people can negotiate.

It's not, it's a conversation.

It's a conversation for you to come to an end that you both agree to.

If you take it literally to that basic, then is a great segue to one of the programs you and Mark are putting together, because one of the many reasons why people in general struggle in negotiations and difficult conversations is because they have never been properly trained in negotiations or difficult conversations.

I would assume I'm a poor pilot because I've never done it or received training.

And I would assume that somebody who's never received training in negotiation would also struggle.

So can you tell us about that program you're creating?

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you.

So actually, it was born because I gave my son and his friend an exercise.

We were doing a fun exercise in negotiation.

I just wanted to see how it works.

And it was a simple one.

It was called spit and steal.

Basically, at the end of it, I looked at both of them and I

I thought, oh my gosh, you're going out into the outside world and you have no idea what's out there.

And you're both going to go and get jobs.

You're both going to go and buy your first student digs.

You're going to be having to negotiate your first salary.

You've got no idea.

And then I looked at it and then we built it and we tested it.

We ran it through some schools.

So it's for ages from 16 to 23, although I still think actually 23 up.

Still people haven't had that.

I think it's not limited to that, but where it started at the moment is that.

So what it does is?

It allows people to understand how to build their LinkedIn, their profile, their social media, and understand that what happens if you do something stupid in your social media, that your boss will Google you, and then there's wandering around on your head forever frat party drinking.

I'm a sensible person.

I would like to be a doctor and then going into I'd like to have this job and then moving into how to interview.

So giving those skills of interaction skills, because it all moves into finally, the negotiation, because once you've got an interview, you're going to negotiate your salary.

And as we well know, that's one of the most important negotiations of your life.

Apart from, you know, when you get married or a partnership or anything else.

The second one is negotiation of salary.

So we've introduced an interactive just like Fortnite, where people can go on and make mistakes and wonderfully they can.

So if they make a mistake, something's on fire behind them or the person moves up and walks away.

But what it does?

It allows them to keep replaying and do different levels until they get to that level where they're confident and they understand everything.

Obviously, there's more to it than just that.

It's engaging because nobody wants, they're in the middle of A-levels, GCSEs, university, and they've already had enough of looking at books, right, and listening to lectures.

They're already fast asleep in the background.

So this actually makes them do something so they can feel it and use it.

So I think if we've got our future being taught in this way, it means that when they go into their corporate lives that means that they're prepared ready, but also it's going to help the corporate world itself by having well-developed, trained people, not just being able to use a calculator where it's got like sine or tanon or linear regression and then go.

I'm never going to use that again unless they're doing economics, but definitely it will help the future without a doubt.

I love this.

This is great.

And I love that it's interactive as well.

And gamifying that is smart because attention spans are shorter than ever.

And the practicality of this is so great because you're teaching them how to build your presence online, interviewing skills, how to negotiate salary.

It's very clear for the students that are going through that that they could say all right, I can see how this has practical benefit for me immediately.

So kudos.

Absolutely.

And they get a qualification at the end of it because we're CPD.

So it means that they actually have got an actual certificate to say, hey, I can negotiate.

Makes their CV look good as well.

Very nice.

Oh, I love it.

Thanks very much.

I love this.

This has been fantastic.

Fantastic, as advertised, of course, before you go remind the listeners again about new beginnings and how they can get in touch with you, of course.

So it's new beginnings consultation, because when we started with the name new beginnings, that was cost like a million pounds to have that as our, Just to get the word New Beginnings.

So we had to add something and we were consulting.

So newbeginningsconsultationcom, or you can just Angelique at New Beginnings or Mark at New Beginnings.

But follow us on our website and you can look on our LinkedIn as well.

Love it.

Again, thank you so much for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

Absolutely.

My pleasure.

It's been great fun.

[Mastering Negotiation: Strategies for Leverage, Salary, and Collaboration]-[Negotiating with Confidence: Knowing When to Walk Away]

📋 Summary

Negotiation Masterclass: Strategies for Professional and Personal Success

1. The Role of Leverage and Personal Branding (Henry Oregon)

2. Strategic Salary Negotiation (Sam Struan)

3. Collaboration and Emotional Intelligence (Angelique)

Conclusion

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Mastering Negotiation: Strategies for Leverage, Salary, and Collaboration]-[Negotiating with Confidence: Knowing When to Walk Away]

📋 Summary

Negotiation Masterclass: Strategies for Professional and Personal Success

1. The Role of Leverage and Personal Branding (Henry Oregon)

2. Strategic Salary Negotiation (Sam Struan)

3. Collaboration and Emotional Intelligence (Angelique)

Conclusion

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🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

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