An NBA Holiday Mailbag and the Jokic Scare With Rob Mahoney | The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night.

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I made a list of my 50 most rewatchable movies of the 21st century.

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I could do a long monologue about why Drake May is the MVP, but maybe I'll save that for Thursday so Joe House can make fun of me.

But As you're debating this over the next couple of days, just remember that Drake May has run for 400 plus yards and 35 TDs.

On top of everything else he's done and all the advanced metrics and the fact that there could be a one or a two or, worst case scenario, a three seed and Matt Stafford is going to be a six seed.

Not to sound like a Pats homer, but I just can't believe after last night that Drake May is not the prohibitive favorite.

I guess he's like minus 350 on FanDuel, but come on, what are we doing?

Sorry, Drake, my schedule wasn't quite tough enough.

You're the MVP or the MVP.

Coming up next, Rob Mahoney is going to join me.

We're going to talk a little NBA stuff at the top, like Joker getting injured.

A little topical stuff, but we're really going to go right into an NBA mailbag.

I had a bunch of really good questions from everybody.

As always, you can send me an email at bspodcast33 at gmail.com.

So Rob's coming up.

We're going to do a mailbag.

And it's going to keep going and going.

A couple of really good questions in there.

So stay tuned for that.

We're going to bring in Pearl Jam right after we take this break.

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All right, Rob Mahoney is here.

We are taping this Tuesday early afternoon Pacific time.

There are some NBA games tonight.

So if anything that gets mentioned over the next hour, plus if it becomes seemingly stupid about 10 hours from now, don't blame us.

That could be the only reason, you know?

Yeah, we're never going to be stupid ever.

We're going to do a mailbag.

You have no idea what questions are coming.

I want to hit some topical stuff really soon.

First, Joker gets hurt. it, I, it's pretty sad.

I feel like I'm a, I'm internet doctor guy.

But when I saw it, I'm like, looks like a hyperextension.

We're fine.

Like I didn't really totally panic, but you just never know with the ACL.

I did realize he's my number one.

Oh no.

So-and-so got hurt guy in any sport.

Who's not a Boston guy.

Just the most upset I could possibly be for a non Boston guy, potentially being injured.

I was like, I, I, I went through the death spiral of, oh my God, no more league pass with the Joker.

No more playoffs with the Joker.

I don't get the random nights where he might put a 50, 15, 17 up.

And I just got really sad.

I just couldn't, I didn't realize how much he meant to me, Rob.

I mean, this time of year, there's always a little despair in the air.

You know, we've gotten through the thick of the holidays.

We're rounding the corner into New Year's.

But I agree with you.

Losing him as a league pass entity, losing him as it seemed like he was kind of stampeding, maybe into the forefront of the MVP race with how well he's played lately.

Yeah.

Plus, the Nuggets, despite all their other injuries, seemed like they were going to be competing for the title.

And I assume still will when he comes back.

But yeah, they've just been amazing. getting absolutely smacked with this stuff.

And he and Jamal Murray were already doing about as much as two humans in their positions could like reasonably be asked to do.

And yeah, now I guess it's just Jamal Murray and Jonas Valanciunas.

Congratulations, Jonas Valanciunas.

You now have to carry the Denver Nuggets.

Oh my God.

I am excited for his little renaissance that we're going to have here.

So they're 22 and 10 heading into tonight's game.

They're the three seed Houston's 20 and 10 LA's 20 and 10 in Minnesota is 1911.

Realistically, if he misses, let's say they said four weeks, maybe that's five.

Let's let's say he misses 16 games and let's say they get smacked in those games.

We're going to actually find out how truly valuable he is.

And we already know the answer.

So let's say they go five and 11.

Um, I think they could fall as low as six and they're fine.

I don't want to see any part of the playing game.

I don't need the extra miles.

So I think they stay in the top six.

I think his MVP case gets hurt because now his games will be in the mid-60s and that's going to be a little tough to compete against Shea.

The biggest thing to me out of all of this is that it feels like the Spurs now could get a death grip on the two-seed.

Yeah.

And I think that matters, because after we get past the six and even I'm including the Lakers in the six, a team I don't even really like

But once you get in that 7, 8, 9, 10, that's going to be a relatively easy first round series.

Phoenix will be frisky if they're in there.

But is there a 7, 8, 9, 10 team you'd be afraid of in a 2-7?

Not particularly.

I would say Phoenix is the team that, as you were kind of penciling in the top six and whether Denver is going to be safe there.

Denver's lead on the Suns is not so solid.

I would feel great about them not being in that mix when Jokic comes back.

So I think it's completely in the cards that the Suns could catch up and worm their way into the top six during this stretch.

You would think when Jokic comes back, the ship gets right at a bit.

But you're right.

It does throw everything for a loop a little bit.

It's going to mess up the standings.

I mean, forget the MVP part of that conversation as far as Jokic gaining ground or losing ground.

He just might not be eligible by the time he comes back for the award at all.

And so the conversation might be functionally over.

It's such a loss to miss out on all of that stuff amid everything else going on in the NBA.

The Nuggets have been one of the most enjoyable teams, one of the most enjoyable stories.

As you said, Jokic, just a joy to watch.

And now we don't get that.

Yeah, and especially coming off the Christmas night game, which was one of his opuses.

Good Lord.

Just an all-timer.

Here's with Phoenix.

Listen, they've been a great story.

They've certainly surprised me.

I thought that their over-under was 31.

I thought they'd go under.

Their schedule is about to ramp up.

They really haven't had to go to the East, I don't think, at all.

I'm not even positive they played an Eastern Conference team on the road yet.

Yeah.

We'll see in January when they get through.

They have Miami, Detroit, New York, Brooklyn, Philly, Atlanta all in a row in mid-January.

They basically play all of the good East teams in January.

So we'll have, I think, a little bit better feel.

So anyway, the Spurs being able to potentially lock down a two-seed.

I thought they were going to be good.

I did not have that one on my bingo card.

Quick other stuff before we get to the mailbag.

Kawhi, since I disparaged the Clippers last week and said they were beyond hope, there was no fix.

Kawhi was like, actually, there's one fix.

What if I turned into Kawhi Leonard again?

Was not expecting that.

I don't know if you saw any of what he did to Detroit on Saturday, but it was out of control and really kind of made me rethink Detroit, which I want to get to in a second.

I'm going to take this game to game.

I'm not going to say we've turned the corner with the Clippers.

But they are like 100 to 1 to win the division.

And I don't think it can be ruled out.

They're like 10 games back.

That division's so wonky.

I don't trust a single team in that division.

So I was like, all right, what if Kawhi just is healthy the rest of the year?

Maybe.

But I would kind of bet against the opposite.

What do you think?

Yeah, I take your point.

I mean, betting the Clippers 100 to 1 to win anything is some real sicko shit.

And I salute you for it.

But it's been nice for just to have a pulse for that team.

And if it has to be Kawhi, defibrillating 55 points into them in order to get the team breathing again, so be it.

That's wonderful.

I'm with you that that's not exactly the kind of thing that can be easily just repeated over and, over and over.

The good news is, i mean, they're on a nice little winning streak right now and he's doing that sometimes, but they're also still missing.

Guys like they've.

They've still been short-handed and they're figuring it out in ways that they just weren't a month ago, and so i will take any version of the clippers that feels mildly competitive after the completely lethargic start to the season they've had.

Yeah, it looked like they had completely quit on themselves, on tyloo, on everything, and now on each other.

They look like they were just having a miserable time out there together.

And that seems to be changing, if nothing else.

The other thing that happened.

It's a small one, but Brooke Lopez just looking like an NBA player again.

He was completely washed.

And now all of a sudden has unwashed himself.

So worst case scenario is at least a trade asset to them.

There's some moves they could make too.

They could There's contracts they could patch together if they wanted to go get somebody.

We might need the unwashed all-stars, the unwashed Mount Rushmore.

How do you turn back those particular hands on the clock?

I don't know.

I mean, Al Horford's trying to play his way under the list right now.

And it's like, we don't admit your application yet.

Lopez is the best example this year of that.

All right, next quick thing.

Cleveland.

Another team that just seemed like they had no outs, no answers, and no fixes.

The only fix was, well, what if everyone's just healthy?

We just got to see everybody playing together.

What would that look like?

And they're not even 100% healthy yet, but they had their four guys against the Spurs.

And they had a really nice win.

And actually kind of looked like the Cavs again.

So I'm just marking that.

This might be my greater skepticism.

Everything else we've talked about, it's like, okay, I can see the Clippers winning.

A win over the Spurs is a huge deal for any team at this point, which is really a testament to San Antonio.

It's just been so bleak, such a drag in Cleveland all season.

And you're right that they haven't been healthy, and getting guys back will, of course, help them naturally.

But I don't know.

I think there just might be something a little busted there that's never going to be quite right again.

And the sooner maybe we acknowledge and accept that, the better.

So I was 97% there with you on that.

And I'm probably still in the 90s.

I thought it was a good sign they played well against the Spurs.

Because that's the kind of team that four weeks ago would have killed them.

I'm just kind of monitoring it.

Next one.

LeBron, the all-star voting came out.

LeBron was seventh.

And I was trying to figure out is the league trying to rig this so he's not in the top five, so they can officially move into a new generation?

Or...

Will the league now have to rig this to make sure he's in the top five, because they don't want to have a game without LeBron in the All-Star game, because he's not going to get in as a reserve?

What would be your bet if you had – those are your two options.

Those are the two options.

Is it rigged or is it rigged?

The league's secretly excited this can happen and they can move some new people into the limelight or – the league's like holy shit, we can't have the All-Star game without LeBron.

We got to fix this.

I mean, from a league standpoint, an All-Star game with LeBron is better than not, right?

It's not really that important for the NBA as a league body to have the most representative sample.

Everyone hates the game, I guess, is the most important thing.

So at least have LeBron James in it, the spotlight on him at all times.

I think that would be a net positive.

So if there is tampering afoot, If there is some funny business happening, I would think it would be putting the thumb on the scale as far as getting LeBron into the game.

Mike Baskin has sent me an email now.

Did you think it was weird?

I think you were kidding, but just wanted to make sure you know we don't tamper with the all-star ballots.

Tell that to Zaza Pachulia, okay?

Like we've all been here.

We've been seeing this happen in real time.

I did think it was interesting not funny business, but just interesting that Shea who is maybe this like, not maybe consensus top two player in the world.

Fourth in the Western Conference in all-star balloting and kind of feeds into the larger conversation we are having, have been having about Thunder dominance, about the appeal of that team, about Shea as a star and kind of like what he can be in terms of, you know, a face of the league or representative of the league.

Like, I love Shea.

The idea that you would vote for anyone over him this season feels dicey.

But I guess if you're going to vote anyone, it would be Stefan Luka.

So maybe it's not so crazy.

Yeah, Steph and Luca seem like just penciled in by casuals and everyone else alike.

Shea should be penciled in, small market.

Jokic should be penciled in, but maybe people are a little tired of him.

And then Wemby is the oddity.

It would just seem like those would be the five guys if you're just doing a ballot.

All right, last thing really quick.

Pistons.

And I've been watching them lately, trying to study them and see what they're missing.

Getting a little competitive with the Celtics in the East too, like with the Jason Tatum comeback, who we might be going against.

To me, we're talking about all these different trades with teams.

This is clearly the team where there's one easy fix for them that would make them go up a level.

You felt it in that Clippers game.

They had nobody who could guard Kawhi.

It's really like, all right, I guess...

Ron Holland, I know you're only 20, but you might be our last hope here.

And it's the same thing when the Celtics played them, when Jalen Brown was somebody that gave them a lot of trouble too.

These bigger physical forwards, I just don't think they have matchups for.

They're playing Tobias Harris, 28.4 minutes a game, Javante Green, 18.3, and Holland, 20.8.

Those three guys, 33%, 34%, 24% from three.

So 70% missing basically.

They're 27th to made threes, 24th in percentage.

There's just a Michael Porter Jr thing looming here now for me when I think, like what do they need?

Well, they need a bigger physical forward who can also take some pressure off Cade, because when you watch them it's all Cade every play.

Like he's the only.

So it's like well, what if you just replace Tobias Harris with whatever this version of Michael Porter Jr is?

Are they a better team?

Also, he's been in big games.

My answer would be yes.

And I just thought there's something there.

Do you see it?

I mean, they're definitely a better team with Michael Porter Jr.

I just want to stop down hard right now.

If the problem is that they don't have someone to guard Kawhi Leonard and Jalen Brown, the answer is not Michael Porter Jr.

Well, but this is the problem, though.

I don't think the guy exists to trade for him.

I went through all the things and it's like, all right, who's the stopper, the veteran?

That guy's not in the league unless they want to roll the dice with J-Mon Green.

Yeah, I'm also less concerned about that particular kind of stopper, because I do think, against most people, the combination of Asar and Ron Holland can fake it.

And I want the shooting more.

I want the stretch more.

I want the dynamism if it's Lowry Markkinen or if it's, in Michael Porter Jr.'

's case, someone who can plausibly guard not even bigger wings so much, but has power forward.

Size, and when at his most motivated, can be a factor on the glass can be a factor as a second rotation guy defensively.

All that stuff is really important and just gives you wrinkles beyond what you would ever get from Tobias Harris.

And so it's like the more you can kind of expand on that role versus a guy who stands in the corner and kind of kind of spaces things for you, but even then not really the better off they're going to be.

It's just a matter of like, how aggressive that detroit wants to be this season and the more that they get pressure from teams like the knicks, i think, the more inclined they're going to be to to make a move this season.

Yeah, right now there are no man's land in that position because they're not getting enough offense from it, but they also can't stop the other wing.

So either they have to trade for somebody who can stop the wings but I don't think that person exists or you try to upgrade the offense.

I did come up with a fake trade, and this ties into the mailbag.

A guy named Jake Colley wrote in.

I had a dream that my Pistons traded Jaden Ivory to the Timberwolves for Dante DiVincenzo.

I view this move akin to the Giddy for Caruso trade. and made a whole case for it.

And I was like, oh, that's a fun trade.

Well, you can even take it a step further and give the Wolves get Ivy, Detroit gets MPJ and DiFincenzo and Brooklyn gets Harris' expiring and Rob Dillingham and a bunch of picks.

It would have to be a bunch at this point.

Maybe two firsts.

Yeah, like two firsts?

I don't know.

MPJ's been really good.

And I think-

To the larger point of this conversation.

He's the kind of player who is useful to a pretty wide variety of teams like the state.

Absolutely.

And so you could see a bunch of contenders thinking they are a Michael Porter Jr away, or would be contenders thinking they're a Michael Porter Jr away.

And so I would think the market on him could get pretty interesting if Brooklyn wants it to be.

Yeah.

And they should want it to be because he's playing a little too well for them.

They're a little too frisky today.

It's amazing, though.

I thought he was, and I said this, I hated the trade when they did it.

I thought he was a negative trade asset last year because of the contract and his health.

Just didn't trust it.

But he's morphed into this different person.

And now it's like he's got this year, expiring contract next year.

He's playing great.

$40 million is tradable in this new apron era for you can patch some stuff together.

Crazy to think about, but true.

All right, we'll take a quick break and then we're going to do the mailbag.

Hey, in case you didn't hear, the video from this podcast will still be on Spotify in 2026.

We love having video podcasts on Spotify, but we were also running video on YouTube.

And that is going to change starting on January 11th for this podcast, because we are moving the video from YouTube to Netflix.

So, starting January 11th, Sunday night, Right after the three NFL games, that third playoff game's going to end on Sunday night.

Cousin Sal and I will be going live.

It will be on Netflix, and you'll be able to watch it as a video podcast on Spotify.

We have a bunch of sports podcasts going that week and then a bunch of other podcasts going at the end of the month, including the rewatchables which will be on Netflix by the end of January.

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So stay tuned.

Netflix, January 11th.

This podcast, the video will be there live.

All right, Rob, NBA Mailbag, got some good questions.

These are more on the serious side.

I only have a couple of wonky ones for you.

These are more just pure basketball stuff.

This first one's from Jody Zink, who listened to Legs and I discussing the Most Improved Player Award and what the purpose of that is.

He said What if we made it the breakthrough award for best performance by a player who averaged less than 15 minutes per game the previous season?

My counter to that is, why can't we have both?

Because the breakthrough award is basically the where the fuck did you come from guy.

Yes.

Right?

Most improved, I think, is different.

Where I think that's like Michael Porter Jr., Jalen Duren.

It's guys like that who are at one level, and then They showed up the next season and we're just at a completely different level.

It's like, whoa.

Whereas like, I don't know, is A.J.

Mitchell most improved?

Like he didn't play last year.

But see, I would say maybe Michael Porter Jr. is not most improved.

Like he's in a role.

Well, I'm just saying guys like that.

Yeah.

I see what your point, though, like he just got more shots, more minutes.

He's kind of weirdly enough for a guy who's already been a champion and been around for a while, kind of on his own AJ.

Mitchell trajectory.

It's just like in a spot with a role with the kind of usage he's never quite had before.

And he's making the most of it.

So is Durin more of your type for that award?

What do you go for?

What's your fancy for the most improved?

I mean, I go back and forth because there's so many things that are weirdly off limits.

It's like we can't pick players who were drafted too high because they're supposed to be good.

We can't pick guys who are just kind of progressing along naturally because that's assumed.

And so we end up just giving it to like, okay, who's scoring more points this year?

You give it to like Jalen Johnson.

Yeah.

Oh, he's five points higher.

He's averaging a 25, 10 and nine.

That's it.

Yes.

I would say the argument for someone like Jalen Johnson is he's doing things that go above and beyond that kind of expectation, right?

The jump he's made as a playmaker.

The jump he's made kind of tying the team together, albeit a pretty broken team at the moment.

But the role he's filled for them, I wasn't sure he was ever going to get to that level.

And so that's been kind of an exciting turn.

I like the idea of splitting the award, though.

And the NBA used to have comeback players.

So why can't we just have breakthrough player instead?

I like more awards, while also simultaneously getting rid of the clutch player award, which is the dumbest award anyone's created in this sport.

Breakthrough this year, Nemeus Keita, Reed Shepard, Cam Spencer and A.J.

Mitchell. all guys who did not play 15 minutes a game last year.

And we're actually under 10.

Yeah.

And this year have jumped up.

Like Kate is playing 25 minutes a game is 10 and eight.

He's got a 20 PR Shepard's 25 minutes a game.

He's been, been huge for Houston.

Cam Spencer has been a revelation.

He's shooting almost 50% from three.

And then AJ Mitchell, like there should be an award for a guy for the where the fuck did you come from guys?

Yes.

Um, Can I raise you Colin Gillespie in that mix?

Colin Gillespie could absolutely be raised in that mix.

And I apologize to Colin for leaving him out.

I'm sorry.

I created another word too while we're here.

Please.

The Powerball Ticket Award for the non-lottery pick rookie, who looks like he's been an awesome steal.

Okay.

I like awards.

And as you know, I love all NBA.

I love all this stuff.

I really cherish my vote.

Because it's a snapshot of everything that happened in the season.

And when we're looking back 30 years later, I want the snapshot to be accurate.

And one thing that would be cool is like when Desmond Bain is the 30th pick and is just kind of awesome right away.

And it's like, whoa, they really struck oil with this.

So the Powerball Ticket Award, Hugo Gonzalez with just a massive lead right now.

I don't even think, was he 31st or 30th?

I can't even remember if he was end of the first round or what, but.

Out of all the non-lottery guys, he's the one that, if there was a redraft, I just feel like he'd be a top 10 pick.

I don't know.

Is there anybody else you'd have outside the lottery?

Yeah.

You like the Powerball ticket.

I can tell.

I mean, look, you're speaking my language.

My only argument is don't we give this award multiple times every week on the podcasts that we create?

Isn't this what we do is just honor these guys constantly all the time?

Podcast content award?

Yeah, maybe.

I mean, Ugo is definitely a great pick.

I'm trying to think if there's anyone else even in the running this year.

Ryan Kalkbrenner's definitely had his moments.

Kalkbrenner's in there.

He's kind of faded a little bit, honestly, as far as his contention for this hypothetical award.

Will Richard in Another World might have been in contention, but also has sort of faded.

I think it might be Ugo's to lose at this point.

Ugo's like minus 650 on FanDuel.

Last award I would have is the...

And I don't know who to name this award after, so maybe you'll have to help me.

The We're Sorry We Mocked Your Seemingly Horrific Trade, Our Bad Award.

And the nominees would be Brooklyn traded for Michael Porter Jr.

The Getty Caruso trade, I think there was a lot of people with Chicago, like, what are you doing?

Maybe the Derrick Queen trade?

He's tailed off a little lately.

That's still going to end up being a top three pick.

I don't think anyone was really bagging on him so much as just the parameters of the deal.

And then finishing last in the vote in the Luka trade.

I think that's the last one in this.

Yes.

Okay.

That's fair.

Because we're still mocking it.

As we should be.

But I think that Porter Jr. trade is the leader in the clubhouse.

So I don't know what GM we named that after.

Like a GM that did something nuts and then all of a sudden it wasn't nuts a couple years later accidentally struck some gold, or i mean honestly in, in fairness to them.

Yes, i mean that's turned out to be quite a nice deal for brooklyn, honestly with, not just with the way porter is played, but with the pick that they're getting in in exchange.

Like, cam johnson's been good but hasn't exactly blown the doors off when he's been healthy in denver so far.

So i think it's worked out pretty nicely for the nets all things considered.

Is it weird that I still hate the trade, even though it's been a good trade?

I still just completely disagree with the logic behind it.

I still feel like Cam Johnson was worth first rounders on himself.

And I feel like Denver would have traded Michael Porter Jr.'

's contract and attached a first rounder to get rid of it for the flexibility.

And I still don't think they got enough, but it turned out to be a great trade.

There is a kind of nobility in you being the person like holding on to the pipe under the bridge as the tornado comes through and twisters.

Like just holding on.

Please continue to hold on, Bill.

I still feel like... All right, next one's from Gray Zabel in Denver.

You keep missing the actual most appalling part of the Luca trade.

The Mavericks, all caps, gave up a second round pick in the deal.

Palenka had the balls to say, actually, this isn't a fair deal.

We're going to need more.

And Nico thought that made sense.

It's a great point.

How did he get a second round pick on top of everything else?

I mean, how does that conversation even start?

Because it can't be that, right?

It can't be...

Polinka coming up and being like, okay, we really got to even this out for both sides.

I would think it had to have started from some other hybrid deal.

Like he wanted a first and they were like, all right, we'll settle for a second.

Like he's trying to Jedi mind trick Nico into thinking I still don't feel like I'm getting enough back.

Honestly, good negotiating tactic if that's the case.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it was some other deal that Frankensteined its way into this deal.

And so they're like, okay, let's just copy paste these terms that include a second round pick.

And maybe no one will notice.

I wrote down, it's the fuck you touchdown at the end of the 50 to three blowout.

When you're just supposed to be running the ball and kneeling and they're like, fuck it.

Let's throw another 50 yard bomb here.

Give us a second round pick too.

Nico's like, fine.

Just wait until that second rounder wins the Powerball Award.

Then they can really take their victory lap on it.

If Nico, if he gave him a truth serum right now, does he feel like he's still in it with this Luka trade?

With the way Luka's looked on defense lately?

Do you think, after three drinks over the holidays with his friends, he's like?

You'll see, with Luca he's never going to win a title there.

Like, I'm sure he goes into that mode, right?

First of all, I don't think it takes the three drinks.

I think he just, but you think he goes right away.

I think he, look, you wouldn't have done it in the first place if you didn't believe it.

And so I would like to think that Nico Harrison is out there with a Bill Simmons level of confidence in the Michael Porter trade, being bad about his own resolution for the Luca trade.

Yeah.

The part that really falls apart for him is the Anthony Davis piece where he was like we needed somebody more reliable from a conditioning and health standpoint.

I present to you Anthony Davis.

That's the part that I can't believe.

Nobody was in the room like.

All right, I get all the logic with the Lucas side, but all right, next one.

Do you have one more point on that?

I was going to say just the fact that the way that's set up now every, for example, Anthony Davis groin injury just feels like such an indictment on the process, on every step that led to this.

We should be over it.

I can't be over it.

It's a ridiculous trade.

It will always be a ridiculous trade.

This is a long one from Mike from Williamsburg, which I assume is Brooklyn.

Simmons.

I like when the people, they start the email with the Simmons.

How do you like to be addressed?

Is Simmons your preferred?

It's a last name.

I mean, you don't even need to mention my name.

You're sending the email to me.

But he gave me the Simmons comma.

You love the overrated, underrated, properly rated gimmick.

Dating back to pre-Grantland before your stubby fingers stopped working.

Another instance.

So we went from Simmons and then we had the stubby fingers.

I think the overreaction, underreaction, proper reaction gimmick works just as good.

And I presented 2025-26 Spurs as an example.

So timely email here.

San Antonio beat the champs three times in two weeks.

I get it, it was impressive.

First game, OKC shot 24% from three in the NBA Cup semis and lost by two.

It happens, they did.

It is true, OKC couldn't make a shot.

Second game, Spurs rolled by 20 at home.

Good win, and they kicked ass.

Way to go.

You have Wemby and two other top three lottery picks, plus you got Fox for free.

Weird dig at the Spurs there.

I don't know.

All they did was win by 20.

Christmas Day, OKC goes 11 for 44 from three and loses by 15.

I hope you watch this game because every OKC three was wide open.

So in two of those three losses, OKC couldn't hit any threes.

Now he brings in the media.

But if you follow the media, the champions, who have just won 108 of 130 games heading into mid-December, now need to pray that they don't see the Spurs in the 2026 playoffs.

I am going with overreaction, which he wrote in all caps.

That was from Mike from Williamsburg.

Was that scrawled on a paper?

Was that sent in with like clippings of a magazine?

It was like in Times New Roman 10 point font.

That's real Wingdings vibes, to be honest with you.

All right, let's talk this out.

Because I did feel like there was a slight overreaction.

But I also felt like something meaningful happened.

Because when OKC, if OKC's just gonna make 24 of their threes, I think there's probably eight teams that could beat them night to night.

Like if they're just gonna shoot like shit.

You already talked about this game on your pod.

I have not talked about the game.

The things I noticed, which other people have mentioned, was the multiple guards at once.

Just good ball handling seems like the right kind of kryptonite for dorton caruso, where it's like you can do that crazy defense thing on us, but not really this time, because we have three guys who can handle the ball, or two at all times.

It's kind of what indiana did last year and their guys are better than indiana's guys right yeah, does that make sense?

I think what was interesting about it is it flipped the door caruso thing against okc, because if their defense isn't going to matter now, it's like they have to make shots.

They didn't.

Yes, The next thing was a bigger thing to me and really jumped out because I watched those last two games.

The Wemby in the paint against SGA's mid-range, I think, is a real thing.

Did you notice that?

Absolutely.

Okay.

That felt like a real like how do you stop SGA, the most efficient mid-range guy we've had in a long time.

What would be the best way to stop him?

What if we had a 7'7 guy with his hand up all the time?

Yeah.

Well, especially Shea is so good at all of the various step throughs and step backs.

Like his footwork is impeccable.

He's so good at drawing fouls.

If you can even take away that fraction of a second when he does get open by making him think that when he could get there, I think that changes a lot of OKC's offense.

And yeah, it felt like it tilted it just enough that they felt uncomfortable, which I thought You could feel.

That is the difference.

And like that to me is why it's not so much of an overreaction.

Like the Thunder shouldn't really be afraid of anybody at this point.

They still are the championship favorites.

They're still the best team in the league.

I don't think anyone should budge on that opinion.

But the Spurs showed like if you are going to beat them, what it takes, and it takes making them uncomfortable by tilting them off balance in exactly that way.

And in particular, you kind of alluded to the way those factors change. influence each other.

Like, if you aren't forcing turnovers, if you're the thunder, then all of a sudden those Caruso shots, those door shots, like they really really have to hit.

And same thing with your office.

If the balance of your offense is always like a little back footed or a little reliant on three positions in a row being swung to the weak side corner and Alex Caruso bricking all of them.

Then all of a sudden, you have a little bit of a crisis of confidence.

Then all of a sudden, you're out of your flow.

You're second-guessing things.

You're not playing dominant, dynastic Oklahoma City Thunder basketball.

And that is what it takes.

And the Spurs, like it or not, seem to be one of the very few teams in the league capable of even nudging the Thunder anything remotely close to that point.

The Dork Caruso thing is the thing I would be worried about if I was OKC.

Because...

That whole team shot threes.

A little bit better last year, but I actually liked the shots they got in the Christmas Day game.

I mean, they're good.

They were wide open.

SGA was definitely more effective, but they were getting wide open threes everywhere and they just weren't going in.

And it made me wonder do you overreact to this or not before the trade deadline, where you have Dort, Caruso and Wallace and none of those guys are knocked down?

I totally trust these guys.

Wild card scoring thing.

Or do they need to play A.J.

Mitchell more?

Is there some sort of offensive wrinkle they would have to... fix that so well aj missed those second two games so he he missed the right i'm saying what they see them in a series or would he play more over one of those guys i think it's a huge variable because that is the exact person you would go to if caruso or dort or whoever in the like case and wallace like whoever you want to point to on the wing isn't fulfilling their offensive duties and you need a little bit more juice and the second side creation like you you would Pulled a lever and put A.J.

Mitchell into the game and he would give you a lot of those exact things without giving up a ton defensively.

He's a good defender in his own right.

So that is the kind of role player they would have off the bench that I think could change those games.

Yeah, Presti's always been careful with trades during this season.

And I don't think he would do a trade.

I do think if Murphy became available on the Pelicans, that's the kind of guy that they would have to really think about, with all the assets they have, the tradable contracts they have.

And you think about like, all right, we're going against the Spurs.

We're in a series now.

We're down 3-2 in San Antonio in game six.

And I need somebody who can get a fucking shot.

Do I trust these guys I have?

What was interesting about the three games and why I don't think it was an overreaction is it was the first time You started looking at OKC, who seemed like this potential dynasty going huh, how could this go wrong?

Right.

And I hadn't thought about that for a while.

The other things that jumped out to me Wemby off the bench, which won't be replicable in the playoffs because he'd be starting.

But Wemby off the bench was such a massive fucking monkey wrench.

Like you're hanging with your team with the starters.

Then it's like, now we're going to bring in Wemby.

Look, I was there.

You probably don't remember the 86 Rockets Lakers series.

You know what, somehow I don't.

Yeah, somehow you missed that one.

Are you over 40 yet?

Not over 40 yet.

Yeah, so that happened before you were born.

So you missed that one.

Rockets Lakers was the all-time kryptonite series in NBA history where the Lakers had won in 85.

They'd won in 82.

They'd won in 80.

They were kicking ass in 86.

They were still doing their Showtime Lakers stuff.

And then they just go against this fluke Rockets team, and they got their ass kicked.

And Kareem all of a sudden looked like he was a million years old.

I wrote about it in my book.

Samson and Olajuwon, they just ran them over.

And it was like, if they had played 20 times, I think the Rockets would have beaten them 18.

And it was this real moment where they had to go out and get Michael Thompson next year.

It was just a bad matchup.

I'm not ready to go there with this yet, but I did think of it.

I did think of like, oh shit, could this just be the wrong team?

I think what it introduced is not that the Spurs are that yet, but that they could be that.

That over the next two or three years, when we're all assuming the Thunder are going to be in contention because they're so loaded, what if they do have just the perfect foil sitting right there with a generational player, plus all this depth, plus two all-star level guards, I guess three all-star level guards.

That could be the exact design you need.

And that would be an incredible turn of events, I think, for all of us, just in terms of watching what the next five to 10 years of basketball look like.

Yeah, and the Wemby-Samson parallels are there.

Like Samson was Wemby before Wemby.

And if you go back and watch him on YouTube, I was showing my son, I was like, watch Samson.

He's like very Wemby-ish.

Wemby was taller, but they were doing a lot of the same stuff.

All right, next question.

This is from Brad Atkins.

One of my favorite showrunners.

Six seasons into his career, what's the most important game LaMelo Ball has played in the NBA?

Not how he performed, but how important the game was going into it.

So I got this email and I tried to think of it and I couldn't think of it.

I had to look it up.

But off the top of your head, do you know?

It would have to be one of the play-in games.

I would guess that Charlotte got absolutely smoked by.

I want to say the Pacers both times somehow.

You're just, your brain's working better than mine.

Yeah, he was in two playing games, neither of which I remembered.

They lost in 2021 to the.

They were on 30 and 39 Hornets made the play-in and lost to Indianapolis 144 to 117.

LaMelo was four for 14 and he was a minus 35.

And then the year later, they played another playing game for the 43 and 39 Hornets.

I somehow forgot that they had a winning record that year.

They lost to Atlanta by 29.

LaMelo was 7 for 25.

And he was a minus 13.

Tough.

So I'm going to say those are his two biggest games so far.

As a LaMelo ball apologist, I have no defense.

He has simply dug his grave to this point and it is his fault, both by his play but, i think, more importantly, just his inability to stay healthy to this point in his career for the most part.

That has really doomed him on both fronts as far as playing actual meaningful games.

It's a weird one for nba teams where and i think they're in this position with him atlanta's in it with trey, new orleans is in it with zion and probably memphis is in it with ja too sure, which is why those four guys have been mentioned a lot of times.

But how long do you stick with this asset as it's declining?

Because I think you could argue Atlanta now has stuck with Trey for too long.

And I don't think he has trade value anymore.

I just don't.

I think you're basically looking at Vivek.

You're going around the league and you just keep coming back to Vivek and be like man.

Maybe he'll do it.

But other than that, I just think he's been in the league too long.

I think we know what he is.

That's such a weird collection of potential home run swings too, because they all have something to recommend about them, not just the vision and the creativity, but remains like one of the preeminent draws in the league, one of the very few players who actually get people and not just people but young people watching nba basketball.

That is a huge and powerful thing, especially for a small market franchise, and i would guess is a huge reason why a team like charlotte would be so loath to give him up because they're better off keeping them.

If it does work, it will work in a way that will be more important than even a better player, but who's less of a draw would be.

And then jaw has some of that too, but has just about the biggest question marks in terms of conduct and decision making off the court and on the court in the league, to say nothing of the fact of the way his game is deteriorating.

Trey is probably the most accomplished of those players from a postseason standpoint um, and yet people seem to really dislike playing with him a lot of the time.

And just like the reviews are not glowing as far as the trey young experience as a co-worker and zion i just has been awesome when he's on the floor.

Usually I just have zero faith that he's ever going to be a high leverage star basically ever again.

And I would love for that not to be the case, but I don't really see a reason to believe it.

So if you had to rank those four for who you would be the the most afraid to trade for, I'd actually have Ja first.

Because the combo of the off the field, decision making, but also just physically, he doesn't seem the same.

And I don't think he's as explosive and reckless as he was a couple of years ago.

And if he's not as reckless, I don't really know what's left.

It's Ja or Zion for sure.

I think Trey and LaMelo, for all of their faults, are in a slightly different category of challenging in their various ways.

Like you, want to build around them and see them grow, but they're just not bringing the baggage to the table.

That Ja, is.

I'm still in on Zion.

Based on what i'm trying to think, what actor or actress zion's like?

We're like oh, maybe this will be the one for them, sydney sweeney.

And it's just like no, but she's been a couple, it's true.

It's true, like she was in white lotus, she was in uh, that was.

That was like like 13 good games of a season.

You know, when he's healthy, sydney sweeney is pretty good.

Um trey, i.

I still feel like we've at least seen him succeed, which is more than two of those guys can say right um All right, so long email about tanking from Christie that I'll try to cut through.

But he basically says the true drivers of tanking are general managers and owners and they do it for different self-interested reasons.

GMs tank to save their jobs and basically prolong the illusion of hope which Sean Marks has been the best at.

Keep my job.

Three years from now, we're going to have all this stuff, and you just kind of hope people buy it.

And then he said owners tank to save money, which I don't 100 agree with.

But he said losing becomes profitable, especially with revenue sharing.

He did write, the NBA is a cartel with guaranteed asset appreciation.

Yikes.

But he suggested if the NBA wants to eliminate tanking, what if we had an eight-year ownership rule?

If an owner's team fails to finish in the top six in its conference even once over an eight-year period, that owner should be required to immediately sell.

Eight years seems low, but I was trying to think like what's the right?

Basically we'd call this the Vivek rule, right?

But he did make the playoffs two years ago.

Yeah.

Eight years seems like maybe it's the right number.

If your team can't make the top six for eight years, maybe you should be required to sell.

Now there's probably all these legalities why you can't force an owner to sell, but I didn't mind the rule.

I mean, it's encouraging regular season competitiveness, which we're all for.

But does it matter if they're just doing it one time every eight years?

If they just take the majority of it and then spend on a bunch of veterans for one last ride, just so they don't have to sell their team, is that worth it for anybody?

And frankly, say you are a fan of one of these long-suffering franchises.

Say, you've been waiting for the Utah Jazz to turn the corner and they have refused to, in part because they have mistimed their trades or held on to Lowry, or whatever you think the sins of the Jazz are.

If you've been waiting all this time and then they just go trade for a bunch of Tobias Harris's, does that make you feel happy?

Does that help anybody if they just have one season where they win 42 games?

You're the Stan Van Gundy mid-2010s Pistons.

You're like, oh, we made round one.

I think there is a lot of good reason and dignity and competitive basketball to be played in the middle of these conferences.

I'm not trying to poo-poo being... fourth fifth sixth seventh in a really competitive conference i'm saying when you go all out and that's all you can do that's when it gets really bad if it's we're kind of building something stably in the middle here and we're waiting for our pascal siakam to show up for example and then all of a sudden we're you know the eastern conference champion indiana pacers that's very different than one of these teams just like trying to go out to satisfy an arbitrary rule like The reason I am cautious about this is because we're seeing the 65 game rule for superstars just feel so meaningless.

Like, why would that be the benchmark?

And the fact that Nikola Jokic is going to be out for a couple of weeks and might be ineligible, that Victor Webinyama might not be the defensive player of the year, even though we all know he's the defensive player of the year.

The fewer arbitrary rules, the better, I think, in terms of those kinds of like cutoffs.

Yeah, I almost feel like we could go back to the 55, but you can only have like 10 things where you miss one game and that's it.

Where you're basically like just resting or skipping.

But I don't even know how they litigate that.

You want a doctor's note.

Excused absences only.

Yeah, excused absences.

That sounds great.

Here's my tanking thing.

And I've mentioned this before.

I think even going back to Greenland.

And I don't know whether it's top three, top four or top five, but I just think they should have a rule where you can't be in top three, top four, top five two years in a row.

Even if it was top five, like here's the things that need to stop.

There's really only three things that were bad.

Because people talk about tanking, it's ruining everything.

It's really only ruined it three times.

The process in Philly was outrageous.

They picked third third, first and first, or they ended up with those picks for four straight years.

That should never happen.

I think we should all agree that that was a complete disgrace.

Let's never have that again.

San Antonio had Wemby.

They got Castle number four, and they got Harper number two.

I'm not sure that should happen either.

So even if you had the top four lottery pick rule, they win with Wemby, they get the fourth pick, but now it goes back to five because you're not allowed to have a top four pick two years in a row.

Now you don't get Castle.

That changes them a little bit.

And then Houston goes two, three, four, three, four straight years.

And it's just ironic that Houston and San Antonio are two of the three teams you'd want to be now, but They threw away multiple seasons to do it.

You know, OKC tried for two years.

Yes.

It worked out once with Chet.

Didn't work out as well the year before when they got giddy.

But that seems like an OK fix.

Are you OK with that?

I'm OK.

You can't be in the top four two years in a row.

I am okay with it, but the sound you just heard is every small market GM calling us frantically, trying to get this rule banned from all possible existence right.

Because if your argument is the only way your team can get better is through the draft, then you want the dedicated, consolidated two- to three-year window to make that happen.

Yeah.

I wonder, if we did have a rule like this, would the penalty for it just be the tanking teams just end up tanking for seven straight years because they need the every other year cadence in order to make it possible to get a couple of top five picks together.

I mean, we've already benefited the small market teams a lot with some of this apron stuff.

Not untrue.

I think they've been really helped out.

Let's take one more break and then we'll finish the mailbag.

So we don't just have readers in America, Rob.

We go as far as Singapore with Tony.

If the Lakers offered Austin Reeves plus every pick they can legally come up with, how many imaginary bonus picks would they need to even get the Bucks to stop laughing in a Giannis trade call?

Would they have to have time travel picks?

He just keeps going.

You know I looked at this because nobody.

There's a really interesting thing that's happened with Giannis that I have not mentioned on our podcast and I want to throw this at you.

Because on the one hand, you would think he's one of the best trade value guys we have.

On the other hand, he's been basically available for the last two months and we've seen multiple contenders be like we're good.

We don't want him.

And I was trying to think like when KG became available in 07 and he's right around the same age miles in his career that Giannis is.

He might have even been two years older.

Like, Everybody wanted KG.

It was like you add KG and this is like the perfect guy to have on your team.

He fits with everything.

He doesn't need a lot of shots.

He just, he's a culture guy.

It makes you better.

Everybody wanted him.

If the Spurs had made Duncan available at any point from like 08 to 13.

I just feel, like everybody maybe, maybe 13 is too late.

Maybe let's say 08 to 2010.

They're like, you know what?

We've won enough titles with Tim Duncan.

He's now available.

I think everybody who lost their minds, people would be like, we're getting Tim Duncan.

We were winning titles with him.

There's something about Giannis that I think holds people off, because there's a perception that if you bring Giannis in, you have to fit the team around him.

He's not a fit into the team guy, which I haven't really heard discussed.

Do you see it that way?

I think there is some of that.

It's not even like that he doesn't fit into the team.

It's he wants to play a pretty specific way.

That's what I mean.

Yes.

Whatever you may say about Kevin Garnett, I think you're right that hyper competitive, but also the mid range jumper was there.

The facilitation was there, like there was really no question that he would find a way to fit into most offensive systems with most offensive stars.

Giannis, like we've seen, we saw with Dame, like it's not always quite that easy, even when we think it will be, even when it seems like these pieces should fit together, like Dame and Giannis would, or like Luca and Giannis might, there's a little bit of hesitation because he is a guy who wants the ball in his hands.

He wants to be the creative superstar.

And if you don't have the pieces to make that work, then I think you have to- Then why would you trade for him?

Exactly.

What are the teams that are close enough to think that they should trade for him, but not so committed already that they would have to tear down or compromise part of who they are already in order to accommodate everything that he wants to do?

Which makes him Just a fascinating trade asset, because I think he's one of the best 20 players of all time.

I can't remember where I have him on my list, but I have him somewhere between 15 and 17.

He clearly is.

He's 30 and 12 every year.

The stuff he's done is all-time, all-time stuff.

He's one of the generational superstars of this century.

And yet, I think a team like San Antonio would look at it and be like, yeah, he might screw us up.

We have a good thing with all these guards.

We have Wemby.

He doesn't really make sense with Wemby.

Whereas if you had somebody like KG and it's like we could turn Keldon Johnson and some picks and Luke Cornett into KG, of course we're doing that.

We could fit him right in.

Sure.

I just think it's more like how unique Giannis is as a player and how much the team needs to revolve around the stuff he's good at.

So that brings me to the Lakers.

I think him and Luke are a weird fit.

I'm not sure I like it.

Because there's like look, they could trade Reeves and LeBron, assuming LeBron would sign off for Giannis and Kuzma.

And Milwaukee's like, we'll do that.

We'll buy out LeBron.

Give us all your picks.

LeBron would get to go somewhere else.

There's a world where that's like a conceivable trade.

I don't think it would happen.

But then I have my future as Luka and Giannis, which on paper, of course you're doing it.

If I'm playing a video game, I'm doing it.

But I don't, in real life, is that a weird team?

So the guy you want with Luca is somebody who's really comfortable screening and rescreening, with the patience to play in space when they catch in the middle, who can either give him the option as a pop player to attack the basket or be such a dedicated force on the role that you have to pay attention to him at all times.

So it's like Davis five years ago.

Davis five years ago, or Giannis earlier in his career, frankly.

Or Giannis even at times during the Bucs championship run.

He tilted in that direction enough for that team to... to show us that he can do it.

And obviously he's one of the best in the world at doing it when he wants to.

The question is like, how much does he really want to sign up for that?

Because when you play with Luca, you're doing it all the time.

Like ask DeAndre and ask every big Luca has ever played with.

Like that is the job is how much do you want to be rolling to the rim?

Even when you may never see the ball.

And Giannis would be the world's most overqualified role man playing with Luka.

And that may come with a championship.

But does he want to do that?

It may come with incredible results, but it's not what top 20 players all time usually do.

Yeah, and same thing for Houston.

Like yeah, on paper it would make sense to trade for Giannis and they have the right assets.

But I'm not sure what you're compromising by doing that.

It's just a weird one.

That's why I still feel like a team like Atlanta made the most sense.

But there's another team coming up later in this.

This question is a long one from Tom D. I'm going to try to skim through it.

But I picked it just because I know you'll love it.

He writes on Amy Poehler's podcast great podcast, by the way.

She called Julia Louis-Dreyfus the LeBron of television.

Julia rejected this comparison.

And then instead of listing other basketball comps like a normal ringer employee, Amy just moved on.

That is true.

We would have just kept going and badgering Julia Louis-Dreyfus on that one.

But he writes, if you were going to make a JLD basketball comp, isn't it clearly Kobe?

Seinfeld is the Shaq-Kobe years.

They're both all-time great number twos on an all-time great show team, but they're also beloved by a segment of the fans who claim they were actually the star of the team.

New Adventures of Old Christine carried a mediocre supporting cast to mediocre results in individual glory.

The 2006 Emmy is her 2006 scoring title.

Wow.

Interesting.

Same year.

Veep is the Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Lakers.

Two Lakers titles, three Emmys.

Neither team or show was quite as good as the Shaq, Kobe Lakers or Seinfeld, but HBO made it feel newer and fresher.

Mm-hmm.

Then he said whatever Apple show she's going to end up on soon will be the Steve Nash Dwight Howard era.

Her co-stars will probably be Sheldon from Bing Bang Theory and Sofia Vergara.

Jesus Christ.

He really went deep on this.

He said, bonus, her year on SNL is Kobe versus Jordan, the all-star game.

And he said, her arrested development guest role is the 08 Olympics.

And he's like, I'm staying away from Colorado.

Good idea.

I really like this.

JLD is the Kobe of television with the multiple errors.

You seem just confused.

I love the longevity argument.

I love the parallels.

It falls apart in one critical way, which is JLD is way better at what she does than Kobe ever was at what he does.

Right.

She is in all.

She is the Jordan or LeBron, or I mean, if you absolutely need to stretch it, I guess Kareem at three.

But just really...

I don't know that anyone has ever been a better TV comedian, either gender, any presentation.

She's the greatest TV comedy star of our time.

Yeah, it's like her, you, Lucille Ball are in the final two.

What's interesting is, I think a lot of the Kobe fans would think that was totally justified, that they were in the same swimming pool.

Well, I mean, that is life as a Kobe fan.

That's what that particular that particular fandom subscribes to.

The problem is, like, I am a Julia Louis-Dreyfus super fan.

I guess, if I want to poke holes in one other aspect, if Seinfeld is the Kobe Shaq Lakers, who is the Shaq

Who is the bigger star or the bigger presence on that show than her?

The reason I like the Shaq Kobe was because Seinfeld was allegedly the Shaq.

The show was named Seinfeld.

He was the franchise guy.

They built the show around him.

He showed up in LA and was the free agent.

Then he needed Kobe to to actually win anything, which is the same thing with her role, with Elaine's role in that show.

Because I think Elaine's one of the great TV characters of all time.

I was thinking George was.

So I don't know who George, George is basically like Robert Horry and Rick Fox and Derek Fisher.

He's the entire supporting cast.

Yeah, maybe him and Kramer.

Yes.

Everybody.

And then Phil Jackson's clearly Larry David.

Yes, that makes sense.

So I liked all the Kobe and her career, the way it moved.

But it would be almost like if LeBron had Kobe's career.

Yeah, because if you mapped her career onto LeBron's career.

Or Jordan had Kobe's career.

Oh, interesting.

That might be it, honestly.

If Kobe were actually Michael Jordan and not just wanting to be Michael Jordan.

Jordan had all of Kobe's moves and the way the supporting cast moved around him, but it was Michael Jordan.

Yep.

All right, I'm glad we talked this out.

I have another TV.

I had to get one weird one for you.

And it's funny because you didn't ever watch this show, but you'll have an opinion on the question.

I can't wait.

You didn't watch The Sopranos.

I've seen two episodes of The Sopranos.

Is Meadows' boyfriend catching Vito blowing the security guard at the Esplanade construction site.

The most holy shit moment in the history of television.

A brief power rankings on the topic would be great.

This is from PJ Cantwell.

So this got me thinking.

What was my number one holy shit moment ever watching a television show?

Okay.

Which I figured you could come up with three off the top of your head.

Here are my five.

Yep.

And I'll go from five to one.

Bernthal getting killed in Walking Dead, I still can't believe they did that.

I felt like Bernthal was becoming a major star, and then he was just shot.

I didn't know about the comic books.

Quick question.

How do we want to handle spoilers with these potential reveals?

Spoilers are... Yeah, come on.

Jump ahead if you don't want any great TV shows spoiled for you.

You should be watching these shows.

Fair.

Or you should have already watched them.

Number four for me is jack.

We have to go back and lost.

I think that's a good one.

Number three before your time, but kimberly pulling her wig off in melrose place and it turned out she had a giant alien scar.

It was in all.

Yeah, she came back, she was, she died in a car accident, yeah.

But then she came back, she seemed a little off and then at the end of an episode she went to go to the bathroom, was looking in the mirror and then just pulled off this red wig and had this giant scar and it was like, oh my god, it's on.

It was amazing.

Number two Omar dying on the wire.

Number one, the red wedding on Game of Thrones.

Which I think that has to be number one, right?

I was worried you were going to leave it off the list because I know you're not a huge Thrones head.

But that felt like, at least in terms of the last 20 years of TV or so, has to be it, I think.

Any others that you would have?

I feel like we hit the biggest possible ones.

Does this example from The Sopranos actually stack up to this billing?

It was a key part of season five or six.

I can't remember.

It was the key swing thing that determined like six episodes.

Wow.

I guess I got to get caught up.

It was more that one, unlike Red Wedding, which was like massively consequential.

This was more like a, wait, what just happened?

It was like one of those.

The ending of The Sopranos, I think, was the more controversial.

But everybody knew going into the ending of The Sopranos that something huge was gonna happen.

To me, it's more like, I can't believe they just did that.

I can't believe that just happened.

That's where The Red Wedding has that DNA, and I think a lot of TV has been chasing it ever since, to be honest with you, to pretty diminished results.

We're so jaded to expecting those sorts of reveals now that I think it's really hard to actually pull the rug on people.

Mad Men, I was trying to think of the Mad Men ones, and the only one is when that guy got eaten up by the equipment in the office.

The riding lawnmower might be the only truly shocking moment in that exact kind of way.

And then Breaking Bad had some good ones, but nothing like Red Wedding.

I mean, they had some good, but you always were on your toes with Breaking Bad.

It was never like, I don't know.

The Wire had multiple ones.

Yes.

Even Stringer actually dying was surprising.

Also true.

Yeah, for Breaking Bad, I wonder if it's something like the way jane dies and like walt's being kind of responsible for it or just like the seeded like poison kind of reveal slow burn over the season there's there's a lot of stuff like that but breaking bad loves showing you the clue and then playing it out over like three years and so is it yeah is it as shocking as even a guy getting his foot run over by a lawnmower i would say kind of not red wedding clearly number one gotta be i mean There's some Miami Vice stuff when Crockett got amnesia and went bad and he shot Tubbs.

But they kind of gave it away in the commercial, so I was expecting it.

But Crockett shooting Tubbs was way up there.

All right.

Glad we talked about this.

Mitch from Michigan says he's been listening to the pod since 2018 and appreciates my knowledge of NBA history.

Thanks, Mitch.

My brother and I are Pistons fans.

I told him that Andre Drummond was the worst multi-time all-star in the 21st century.

My brother pushed back with Roy Herbert or Brad Miller.

We need your take.

Who's the least deserving multi-time all-star in the 21st century?

Just shots fired at everybody.

So Drummond was a replacement selection in 2018, which that even makes it worse, right?

Yeah.

Because you're electing him specifically for that spot.

Yeah.

So you're right about the shots fired.

We're going to be unkind to all of these guys, but Andre Drummond even had his absolute best.

Getting your all-star berth off rebounding is kind of a tough beat, I think, overall.

A couple other nominees.

Karam Butler won two.

But I really like Karam Butler and he was 20 a game and tough juice, but I was surprised he had two.

Vucevic had two.

Zach Levine had two.

I think this is the answer, and it was not mentioned in the question.

I think it's Zydrunas Elgoskis.

You're throwing Z under the bus like this?

I am and I love Z, and I thought he was a huge part of those later caps.

But can I give you the resume though?

Please.

2003, he averages 17 and 7.5 rebounds on a 17-win Cavs team and makes 44% of his shots.

2005, They were 42 and 40, 17 and 8.6, 47% field goal, 2.1 blocks.

The stats just aren't good.

The 47% kind of numbers, he's shooting exclusively long twos.

It's not like he's getting easy stuff around the basket to pad the stats.

He's just shooting mid-range jumpers at this point and also somehow managing to be effective.

Granted, a different league.

I love how you really, you're thrown off by the Sogoskis.

Well, I'm just thinking.

I love it.

I'm thinking about the grand tradition of guys who snuck into the All-Star team a couple times.

And again in the spirit of throwing guys under the bus, Antoine Jamison seems like a very nice human being.

Antoine Jamison is.

20,000 points too.

I mean.

And Zach Levine is going to be in this category.

I'm sure we can have a fun conversation about him at some point.

I just think there are other good candidates beyond the big Z's and the Brad Miller's.

The reason I went with big Z is my answer was because I was trying to time it to that really weird time for talent which was in the league from basically 03 to 06, because so many of the expensive guys flamed out.

We missed a couple of drafts, but they were also like demanding you pick the center every year.

And there was always two centers on each team.

And we didn't have enough centers for a few years there.

That's how Jamal McGlory got in.

The worst one of all time was, rest in peace, but Kevin Duckworth, two times in the 90s.

Still trying to figure out how that happened.

Anyway.

David Lee, too.

Two-time All-Star David Lee.

It's fine.

David Lee.

Very productive.

It's funny, though.

I went back and looked at his stats, and they were legitimately good.

He was a huge part of that 2013 Warriors.

Yes.

He was 20 and 10 and getting to the line.

All right.

Next question from Bob Madsen in Milwaukee.

Basically, are the Celtics qualifying for the ewing theory this year with jason tatum out and them still playing well?

And the answer is just a just flat out no.

They won the title with jason tatum.

If you win the title, you are automatically ineligible for the ewing theory, so you can't be mentioned.

The whole point of the ewing theory is they never you never won a title.

The team played better without you.

They won the title with jason tatum.

They're also not playing better without him, but lots of guys are playing well, Above and beyond, I think, what we would have expected.

Having the second-rated offense has been confusing.

Shocking.

I don't understand that at all.

And I watch this team, and I actually really love watching this team.

Yeah.

But I don't understand how they have the second-rated offense.

Even in watching in real time, I'm not usually sure how it's happening.

It's like offensive rebounds and weird threes and pull-up contested threes.

Yeah. clearly those things alone go a long way.

It looks like the energy of the team goes a long way, but I am worried about you and what your attachment to this group is going to be like.

Are you?

Do you want Jason Tatum to come back?

I know you keep pushing for him eventually in order to come back.

It's happening.

I'm sure he will, but you're good, but you're going to miss this version of the team.

You know, like you're, you're, I'm, I'm so much deeper.

It's so much darker.

How into this team means some of the other, like I was creating Fanspo trade threads, was the Simon's contract and trying to figure out the best one and finally came up with Malik Monk and just any sort of thing where it would save them 6 million bucks.

As you know, I've always liked Malik.

Simon's expiring.

The Kings can get out of that.

They get Malik Monk.

We try to rejuvenate him.

Former six man of the year.

Save like 6 million bucks.

Gets them closer to the under the first apron.

I'm at that level.

I'm making up like, The King Celtics trades.

Absolutely insane.

I can apologize for it either.

I mean, nor should you.

I just I think look if you, if you were standing on the edge of a cliff and Ugo Gonzalez and Jordan Walsh and one of your children were dangling on the edge and you can only save.

Which child?

I guess.

Well, I'm going to leave that to you.

I'm saying if you can only choose one, I think you would at least think about it.

It's gotten to the point where Missoula has been amazing, but he kind of blew the Portland game.

He took Kate out with three minutes left to go small for reasons that remain unclear, and Klingon ended up getting the biggest rebound of the game put back and they ended up losing.

They had a couple of dumb turnovers but just texting angrily with my dad that they blew the Portland game.

I'm like, this is great.

What a great place to be.

Just furious that they lost to Portland.

Another Boston question, quick, from Scotty.

Ironically, he starts it off.

I know you're a Boston homer, but I also think you take your NBA vote seriously.

Thank you, Scotty.

Do you think Jalen has been a first team all NBA guy so far?

So I'm slightly the wrong person to ask, not because of the Boston Homer thing, but because I'm not the.

I'll put five guards on my team as first team.

Right.

You want actual positions or some semblance of it.

I want to have a team that looks at least something like a team.

And for me, he's been the best forward in the league.

And I think for me it would be Jokic SGA Jalen, and then we could fight about Maxie Ant Brunson, Cade and Luka two of those five.

I personally would have Luka on the second team despite the stats.

I have Jokic, SGA, Jalen, Maxie, and Ant as my first two-mile NBA right now.

Maxie, because of the minutes he's playing and all the stuff he does for that team and the stats and I just think he's been unbelievable.

Ant's, just Ant's.

At the point now where he it's kind of like prove to me he shouldn't be on the first team.

Like, he's just awesome.

He's so good.

Like I just I remember where Durant and I were arguing about this once, when we did all our pods together and I was talking about somebody who was second team and first team.

And he's like, but what's the point of the team if I'm one of the best five players in the league?

And I'm like, yeah, I guess that's right.

And I just don't know how he's not on the team.

So if you had to knock out any of those guys, who would you knock out?

Well, let me start with this.

Are you treating Giannis as basically ineligible?

Because he's not technically ineligible yet.

I don't have him on any of the teams yet.

Yeah, because he's... If Giannis is going to be eligible, then that screws this up.

Yeah.

Then maybe Jalen gets bumped.

And you had Jokic on the team.

Yes.

I mean so there may be openings just from Giannis and Jokic being off of it, like not being eligible with the 65 game threshold.

And that would, that would create some room.

Although do you have to have a big man on your, on each team or you don't care?

I don't care.

I'm just going to take the five.

Like I.

I don't like it because the parameters of how we vote now makes to me the MVP ballot look a lot like your first-team All-NBA.

And I would like them to feel different.

I just think with what we're asked to do, it's basically the same thing.

I wish we had one big and one true wing and one true guard.

And then you can do whatever you want with the other two spots.

Yeah.

I just think it should look something like a real team.

And I also think it's like, to me, right now I have your coach first team.

I have Schengen second team and I have Jalen during third team.

And I think all those guys deserve to be recognized as all NBA guys.

Yeah.

Whether Luca can play his way on there.

We'll see.

But Jalen Johnson.

I have as a second team all NBA guy right now, even though they have a slightly a losing record, like they're three down.

Um, and then for 13. you know, Murray, Murray, Mitchell, and Curry, I think all have to be in there.

We kind of know who the best 15 guys if you're, if you're talking bubble guys.

The bubble guys right now are Booker and Duran and marketing.

Um, and I have towns as a third team for now.

Yeah.

And where did you have Brunson second team at Brunson second team.

But I honestly, if you wanted to do a five minute argument about Brunson versus Maxie or Brunson versus and I don't, And you can make the case right.

Yes.

I really go back and forth all the time between specifically Brunson, Maxie and Kate Cunningham, like all, all three of whom influenced the game in slightly different ways wildly productive.

It really is just kind of like a matter of taste.

And do you want Brunson's ability to gut out points or Maxie's ability to be like purely athletic, or Cade's kind of combination of offense and defense?

I honestly waffle with those guys a lot.

And I think right now I would probably favor Brunson among the three of them.

But ask me again in a week and I might feel differently.

Yeah, the Cade, I'm ready to move Cade up to one.

If they stay a one seed or a two seed, that's going to change the conversation for me.

Ant's like a six seed and New York and Detroit are the one and the two seed.

I think maybe you think about it differently.

Do you think any other Thunder guys will make it?

Do you have Chet anywhere near the conversation?

Didn't, i didn't, i had, i mean, wimpy's the wild card, whether he can play enough games.

Yeah, the team, my team, sucks too much guys avdi and porter, i think are the two, but their teams just aren't good enough.

And there's some guys lingering like i have my eye on, like ahmed thompson honestly fox, I think has at least played his way close to the bubble with how important he's been for them.

He carried them when Wemby was out.

I think he's been huge in these OKC games.

And Ananobi's, another one that I think, as a two-way guy, at least has to be thrown into the bubble section.

Yeah.

See, I'm trying to think, would I take Fox over Castle?

And I'm not saying Castle should be in the mix.

I think they're both probably a little further down.

I'll add Castle to my list.

That's a good one.

I mean Castle.

Like The energy he plays with is transformative, and I think that's worth noting for sure.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Well, we'll see.

But the bigger point is Jalen's been a 30-point game scorer all year.

I've talked about this before in the pod.

He's gone toe-to-toe with the other team's best guy every game.

I just think he went up a level, and I don't really fully understand it.

I've never seen a guy go up a level in year 10.

I didn't think NBA, you kind of know who guys are by year seven, year eight.

Year 10 is unusual.

To be this productive again for a team that is a top five offense and this successful in the standings.

You can't discount that anymore.

Those are all NBA credentials.

There's no doubt about it.

Mike from DC wants to know why don't we live in a world where Derrick Queen's spin move is called the DQ blizzard?

Oh my God.

Let's just put that into the world right now.

Fucking mint it.

First of all, we need to get the consult.

Who was the emailer who suggested this?

Mike from DC.

Mike needs a consult fee.

We got to get it connected on the deal somehow, but this has to happen.

The DQ Blizzard is great.

Outstanding.

I remember once upon a time I was pushing hard for Paul George to change his uniform number to 13.

He was doing NBA columns about it.

Just change to 13 and your nickname can be PG-13.

And then he did it.

And his nickname became PG-13.

Now I give the world the DQ Blizzard, courtesy of Mike from DC.

It's honestly beautiful.

And we need to be able to just change his name on the jersey.

Obviously, there's no 13.

There's no AK-47 possibility here.

But just put Blizzard on the back of Derek Queen's jersey.

Yeah, you could even nickname it.

Come on.

All right.

We're near the end here.

Andrew Z wants to know.

So I had the McKeskey Award for the best American white guy that I've been joking about since I had my column at ESPN that we needed a best American white guy award.

One year we made a McKeskey plaque for it.

I've been thinking American white guys just aren't getting enough credit for things.

We really do need another trophy to hand them.

Hold on to your hats.

He wants to know why DeMontis Sabonis is not eligible for the McKeskey Award.

It's a complicated case.

Born in Portland, Oregon.

Yep.

Lived there until he was eight.

Played center at Gonzaga.

Basically was gone for 10 years.

And if he was eligible, then does he retroactively get like six McKeskey's?

So I went through this.

He went to high school in Spain.

And he plays for Lithuania in the Olympics.

I don't think he's eligible.

So the Olympic qualification does matter to you?

I think it does.

The combo of that.

So I think two of the things that have to happen are high school in America.

And you have to be eligible for the American Olympic team.

Or at least that's who you play for.

Marc Gasol also vetoed out.

Yeah, I just think.

So then the other thing is, could we expand to North America?

Because then that brings in Nash.

But it's like we play Canada in the Olympics.

Now I'm changing to McKeskey.

I don't want to change to McKeskey.

McKeskey is what it is.

But it does lead to an email from Matt from Des Moines.

I mean, it would, first of all, lead to an email from Des Moines.

Are white guys having a moment in the NBA right now?

Is this the best white American talent pool since the merger?

And I was like, you know what?

This is interesting.

So we're not including the foreign guys.

Okay.

Kalkbrenner, Huff, Filipowski, Herter, Podzemski, Quint Post, Laravia, and Grady Dick.

Not even on the final team.

Okay, good.

They're like, we're inviting them to the 100-person tryout.

Yeah.

Donovan Klingin, Reed Shepard, Luke Cornett, Jaime Jaquez, Alex Caruso, Sam Houser Gillespie, Zach Eady, TJ McConnell, Dave Vincenzo, Duncan Robinson, not even starting.

Christian Braun, Tyler Hero, Reeves, Holmgren, Knipple, Flagg.

It is a lot.

I was surprised when I saw all of it down.

I don't, what do you, Is it the shooting?

Is it the spacing?

What's going on, Rob?

Well, it's always the shooting.

You know, it's the shooting.

It's the surprising athleticism.

It's the feel for the game.

It's the competitive savvy.

You know, it is all of these things.

I will say the one part of this that has been striking is the con Cooper rookie of the year.

Race is now really heating up.

And those guys are just like these are real deal, star level prospects and where they separate themselves from a lot of the guys you listed who are, you know, nice shooters or nice bigs.

It's like, they can do everything.

Like these are guys you want to put the ball on their hands and see just how far it can go.

I don't know that we've seen many white American players with that kind of profile in a long time.

It's been a lot of supporting stars, role guys.

Cooper and con can nipple feel like something pretty different from what we've had lately.

I went back and looked at some of the old McKessie's, like Chris came in one one year.

A true legend in the game.

Mike Miller one, like this is a Renaissance.

Okay.

Uh, Gabe Halperin Goldstein wants to know why we're barely hearing Philly in the honest trade rumors.

Is Daryl just asleep at the wheel?

So what's the package?

He's he wonders, could it be Embiid and all their picks?

And then you hope Embiid could just get scratched.

Could it be Paul George with Edgecombe?

You throw in a bunch of picks like they they do have the big contract to put with the honest.

Yeah.

They do have the edge cone piece, and they do have a bunch of picks.

And it is weird that they haven't been mentioned at all.

If your ultimate goal is, could we just end up with Maxine Giannis, we'll figure out the rest later.

Yeah, I would guess.

Probably the reason is because the salary that would be going back.

Whether it's Paul George or Embiid, those are heavy contracts, not just in terms of the number but the implications that come with them.

And so if you are Milwaukee, you would need a third team to take those contracts, or you would just be saddling yourself with that experience.

But As far as Giannis on the Sixers, Tyrese Maxey is kind of exactly the sort of player I would want playing with Giannis.

I got excited about it.

Maybe we do have to gin up the conversation.

Well, you also, Daryl.

As I've talked about many times the classic, I just want to have three stars.

I'll figure out the rest.

So if he could figure out, I just think Edgecombe has to be in it.

I don't know how you get Giannis.

I thought we were just treating Dominic Barlow as the third star.

Maybe Quentin Grimes is the third star.

I don't know.

But I just feel like, if he could be, I have Giannis, I have Max, I have two first team or second team NBA guys.

I'll figure out the rest of the team later.

All right, last question.

I thought this was a great question.

I'm glad you're here for it.

And it's from somebody whose name is Owl Pacino in Boston.

I don't know if that's like his Gmail name or whatever it is.

He said, it seems like a near certainty we're going to name an award after Steph when he retires.

And it's probably going to be something boring like the three-point contest.

I propose something convoluted instead.

Steph is the absolute undisputed goat of shooting.

You could argue, nobody would ever argue Ray Allen was a better shooter than Steph.

So why wouldn't the Steph Curry Award go to the player who was the most dominant at a certain skill that season?

So what player was the best at their skill versus all of the other guys at that skill?

He says this season would probably come down to Steph shooting, Wemby shot blocking or Jokic passing.

And then you bet on who had the best skill.

He said most memorable winners would include 1958, Bill Russell, 1987 Michael Jordan, who was eight points higher than the next guy's scoring.

And 93, Dennis Rodman, who had 18.3 boards.

Shaq was next at 13.9.

It would get the general public to appreciate certain skills more.

I think it would be fun.

Keep up the good work.

I kind of love this.

I kind of loved it too.

What a great idea.

What was the best, most dominant skill of the year?

Would it be a really fun thing to figure out?

I don't even know.

This year, I would say Jokic is playmaking, but I don't know if playmaking is a skill.

Might just be a scoring, to be honest with you.

He could be in the running in a couple of different ways.

Right.

So could like SGA's mid-range game, that would be out.

So I guess they would have to tell us.

Here are the 10 things that are eligible this year for this award.

And it's like Curry's shooting.

SGA's mid-range game, Jalen Brown's mid-range game, Jokic's passing, Wemby's shot blocking.

Cason Wallace in the passing lanes.

Let's get weird with it.

I think there's some real potential here.

I also to tie the convoluted awards together in the spirit of the Sopranos.

Whatever moment that I haven't seen, is that truly surprised you?

I think the Steph double bang against OKC might be the closest thing that the NBA has had to the red wedding.

I guess maybe LeBron chased down in game seven might actually be that, but Steph on both sides of it, unfortunately.

Wow, that's a good one.

What was the red wedding?

It's not the Ray Allen shot. actually that's a great one i feel like it would have to be the stakes it's the last 28.2 seconds of the 2013 game six it's the red wedding phenomenal red wedding for spurs fans and much like in game of thrones the family bounced back look at that came back a year later all right so you like this the steph curry award i'm i'm very much in favor of it and i like the long list idea of let's get five or ten honest nominees just truly elite at whatever it is they do and it can be big or small but naturally the award i think is going to go to which of these things like mattered the most and so what's your what's your number one elite skill right now 30 games in so he's the leader for the steph curry are we treating shot creation as one skill or is it broken up into scoring or passing or whatever I think it would have to be a little more minute.

Yeah.

Where it's like shot blocking, rim protection, that's one.

Passing, mid-range game, long-range shooting, rebounding would be the other one.

Yeah.

If somebody's, like I, averaged 20 rebounds a game this year and nobody else had 12, you're probably winning the Steph Curry that year.

For the sake of full circling this thing and bring it back to Nikola Jokic being out for the next four weeks.

I think it is his playmaking.

I think that is the single most irreplaceable and valuable skill that is happening for any team at any level right now.

And some of that is because the things that make the Thunder great, for example, are so balanced out between five and six and eight different stakeholders who are all really good at what they do.

Nobody does what Jokic does.

Nobody has that impact on the game.

And so if you're pointing at the guy who is most like Steph in terms of warping everything around him, I think it's Nikola Jokic.

So playmaking would be a skill.

I agree.

That should be a skill.

Yeah.

It would be funny if rim running finishes like somebody just won one year because they had like 377 rim run finishes compared to like 100 for the next person.

But I like this.

I think there's something here.

Congratulations, Al Pacino.

Rob Mahoney, thanks for sticking with us for the mailbag.

Thanks, Bill.

This was fun.

I had a good time.

Good to see you.

Happy holidays.

All right, that's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Gahal.

Thanks to Isaiah.

Thanks to Mahoney.

And I hope you have an awesome New Year's Eve.

Please stay safe.

I am excited to get to 2026.

This is an interesting year to say the least, but 2026 is looming.

Can't wait.

Thanks for everything.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for supporting everything we're doing here at The Ringer.

Thanks for supporting this podcast and Rewatchables.

I will see you in 2026.

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[The Bill Simmons Podcast: NBA Mailbag, Jokic’s Injury, and the Future of League Awards]-[An NBA Holiday Mailbag and the Jokic Scare With Rob Mahoney]

📋 Summary

NBA Landscape: The Jokic Impact and the Nuggets' Crisis

The Clippers and Cavaliers: Searching for Stability

Mailbag: Reimagining NBA Awards

The Thunder, the Spurs, and Defensive Kryptonite

The "Steph Curry Award" and Future Visions

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[The Bill Simmons Podcast: NBA Mailbag, Jokic’s Injury, and the Future of League Awards]-[An NBA Holiday Mailbag and the Jokic Scare With Rob Mahoney]

📋 Summary

NBA Landscape: The Jokic Impact and the Nuggets' Crisis

The Clippers and Cavaliers: Searching for Stability

Mailbag: Reimagining NBA Awards

The Thunder, the Spurs, and Defensive Kryptonite

The "Steph Curry Award" and Future Visions

Deep Learning with ListenLeap

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ListenLeap Brings You Into Real Context Learning