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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
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I'm a big magazine publisher in New York, which I ultimately did.
And entrepreneurship found me when I was about 25 years old.
It just sort of knocked on my door and presented an opportunity.
And I took it. And I have to be honest with you.
I didn't think it was going to work.
In my head, I'm very rational.
I was like, 98 % of startups fail.
So statistically, this will fail.
And then I was one of those 2 % lucky shots that it didn't fail.
And that was 10 years ago.
So I am an accidental entrepreneur.
I have an amazing marketing agency called Bright Ideas Only.
We help do fan engagement strategies for music acts, sports teams, live events, big brands.
It's super fun. And then I also am what I like to call an edutainer, which is an educator and entertainer.
And so I have a couple of courses on LinkedIn learning.
And I'm launching my first live learning cohort in the fall.
So a little bit of founder life, a little bit of edutainer life.
And I feel like I have the best of both worlds.
That's great. And before we get into it, tell the listeners about that course.
I'm really excited for the course that's going to launch in the fall.
It's called Career Capital.
And it's all about in today's busy world, how you can boost your career capital so that you can be recognized for promotions, awards, honors, opportunities.
And in today's quick glance world, you really have to make sure that you're standing out and showing up and raising your hand to be recognized because if you're waiting for people to call on you, holy moly, you are going to be waiting a long time.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.
So listeners, check that out.
We're going to have a link in the description for easy access.
And Kim, this is going to be a fun episode because we're talking about entrepreneurship and the difficult conversations that you have to have in your journey as an entrepreneur.
And yes, everybody listening who you might not be an entrepreneur, there's still stuff that you can get from this.
So we're going to focus on three specific difficult conversations that you have to have.
So number one, if you're having a co -founder, those difficult conversations.
And you can see me smiling already as a lawyer.
I've had a few of those situations with my clients there.
And then the next one, negotiating with friends and family, having those difficult conversations.
And then lastly, when things inevitably go wrong, how to handle those conversations.
So let's start off with the co -founder situation.
What do we need to know about that?
I would say for me, the biggest, if I could get in a time machine and go back in time to when I first started my business, it would be to think of the divorce first.
I think we all have this fairy tale image of everything's going to work out and everything's going to be amazing.
But let's think about the worst case scenario before that comes to pass.
And so it sounds a little grim or a little gruesome, but what happens if a co -worker is hit by a car?
What happens if your co -founder is not able to make decisions about the business?
What happens? What if your co -worker wants to get out?
What if your co -worker wants to go do something else?
What happens then? Sort of these topics that we don't really like to talk about, who wants to talk about their co -founder getting hit by a bus?
No one. But it's sort of, I call it the burpees of business.
Nobody wants to do a burpee.
Workouts suck. When you hear a trainer tell you to do burpees, you're like, oh, the last thing I want to do is burpees.
But you know it's going to make you better.
And so those hard conversations about what happens if somebody wants to leave, what happens if, God forbid, there's an accident?
What happens if a co -founder gets married?
You know, marriage also changes the dynamics with a co -founder.
So you really need to have these conversations right off the bat when times are good, when things are good.
I always tell people, get a nice bottle of wine or get your favorite snack and sort of get confident and dig into these issues that might not be so fun.
Yeah, it has to happen because it's going to happen one way or another.
So let's say if you decide not to have it now, then it's going to happen at a time where you're already legally bound to this person in a way that gets things really messy.
And one of the things that I would do as a lawyer when I was practicing is that people would come and say, hey, I want to have a business partner.
And we're going to start this partnership.
And I want you to draft the operating agreement.
I said, I can certainly do that.
I can do that. But before we do that, we should go through a little bit of a process.
And so I called it premarital cast for business partners.
And my goal was to break them up.
I'm like, I want you to break up now, if you're going to break up at all.
And the majority of people who went through it, they didn't go through with the partnership.
Now, the business still happened.
It didn't happen as partners.
And I think that's really important to recognize because there's usually one person who's in it a little bit more than the other.
We have to figure that out.
And it takes asking a lot of hard questions and having a lot of hard conversations.
But it pays off because you don't want to have that conversation when it's too late.
Well, and I think it's really what's also helpful is to think about the longevity.
I like to think about, OK, yes, you might be making this decision like I was at 25.
But when you wake up at 30, how are you going to feel?
Or when you wake up at 35, how are you going to feel?
So I think it's such a good, important thing to remember that you're not only thinking of yourself today, you're thinking of the future you.
And so you might say, well, of course, I would never want to leave the business.
Of course, this would never happen.
And you kind of say, well, you don't know what future you would want.
So don't necessarily discount that conversation.
Exactly. And in your experience and based on what you've seen working with other entrepreneurs, what is it that really holds people back from having these important conversations up front?
I would say fear of rocking the boat.
I think obviously in entrepreneurship, there is already so much just volatile times.
You know, you're not sure if you're going to get customers.
You're not sure if you're going to get a line of credit.
You're not sure if the investors are going to come.
There's so much that seems to be an upheaval that you want to hold on to something that seems steady on the ship.
And for a lot of people, that's their business partner or that's their co -founder.
And the thought of that thing that they've been holding onto is steady.
The thought of that possibly moving is almost like too much.
And so they just say, well, I don't want to rock the boat because I can't have something else that's shifting, but it's a stress test.
And you're absolutely right.
Like you need to have those conversations.
You need to think about what if this starts wobbling?
What if we do break up?
Because I need to experience that now, you know, not when we're in the middle of a hurricane.
Then what's going to happen?
You're absolutely right.
And I think it's important to recognize that because if we're able to take the time and do a little bit of introspection and recognize what it is that's pushing us to make certain decisions, then we can make better decisions.
Because if we recognize, oh, this is just an emotional thing holding me back.
I'm not thinking rationally or thoroughly about the decision.
I'm saying, no, I don't want to have this conversation because I don't feel like having the conversation.
I'm afraid of having the conversation.
That might be legitimate in terms of the reality of the emotions, but it's not legitimate in terms of the quality of the decision that you're making.
A hundred percent. And tell me if you've seen this too, because we often focus so much on the impact of negative emotions on these difficult conversations that we fail to recognize the impact of positive emotions on these conversations, because we have these situations where the emotions, they come
from the same place.
It's always going to come from the amygdala, positive and negative.
But when you're emotional, you're not thinking clearly, regardless of whether it's positive or negative.
And so you see these entrepreneurs who are essentially in the infatuation stage of their budding partnership and they can't see what's wrong with their partner or what's wrong going forward.
And because of that, they just merrily prance into this business relationship long term.
And then it's like a year later, it's like, who am I with?
Why did I do this? Exactly.
And I will say that is definitely the case more times than not.
And I will say that's definitely the case.
And if it's not that case spread away after a year, it will surely be the case after five years, 10 years.
It just, it's what happens.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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Absolutely. And I think one tip to keep in mind is that sometimes you have to recognize when you're too close to be objective in the conversation.
It might be helpful to bring in somebody.
So for me as a lawyer, I do that.
Most lawyers don't do that.
They just write down the contracts.
But you could talk to a like a maybe a business coach, right?
Do you do coaching or just courses?
I just do courses and sort of like sprints.
So you might think of it like a business coach, but I might work exclusively with someone for like two months.
But it's not an ongoing, you know, year plus thing.
For me, it's really about getting people in a good spot and sending them on their way.
Gotcha. Okay. That's good.
That's good. Because I was thinking a business coach, a mentor, a friend, somebody else, to help you to stay objective in your analysis.
And frankly, somebody else who could be the bad guy.
I tell my clients all the time, I can just, you know, you have to be with this person.
I let me be the bad guy for you.
But yeah, I think recognizing your limits is important too.
And now let's talk about friends and family.
So when we're thinking about the difficult conversations with friends and family that surround entrepreneurship, what comes to mind for you?
I always tell people, and if you're multitasking, come back to me, because this is like the most important thing I'll probably say in this whole podcast, which is you chose entrepreneurship, your friends and your family did not.
Okay. So you chose entrepreneurship, but your friends and your family are basically getting dragged on a ride that they did not stand in line for.
They did not decide to get on.
So when you start missing birthdays, going late to vacations, not being able to do some of the things that you would normally do because either funds are tight or you're spending all your time working on the business, that affects your loved ones.
And that affects the people that are around you the most.
That affects your family, your spouse, your friends, your boyfriend, your girlfriend.
And so when you don't have those hard conversations with them, that can lead to them feeling ignored.
It can lead them to feeling hurt, sad, angry, confused, frustrated.
I don't understand.
Billy used to be able to come to our Tuesday night baseball games every night, and now he hasn't showed up for the last three out of four.
That really hurts my feelings.
Those types of situations where if you don't have those conversations with people that, I'm going to be starting this new business or I'm going to be starting this new product or service or whatever it is, I might not be as available for blank.
I might not be as available for activities, family dinners, vacations, alone time, whatever it is.
And really having those conversations and saying to your friends and family, we need to come up with a system where you can help me prioritize.
So I'm not going to come to the next 10 family events, but what are the two family events that I really need to be at?
I'm not going to make everybody's birthday party, but who are the two that okay, you really got to make these and including your friends and family as part of that conversation.
That is a huge mistake I made.
I didn't include a lot of people.
I kind of put my head down, work, work, work on the business because that's what we do as entrepreneurs.
But I ended up hurting a lot of people around me who were just confused or were taking it personally thinking I didn't want to hang out with them or they had done something to make me angry when in reality, I was just super excited to work on my business.
So I think you really need to have those important conversations with those closest to you because if not, there's a lot of room for confusion.
That's so true. And I want to focus in on two words that you said, confused.
I guess this one is a term or a phrase, taking it personally, those two things.
A lot of times that comes from the lack of setting expectations.
If we fail to set expectations and clearly communicate what is going to happen and why it needs to happen that way, then people are going to come up with the worst possible interpretation for your behavior and your actions.
And so it sounds like we really have to get ahead of it to make sure that we can identify some potential conflicts before they happen and address them before they become bigger issues.
Exactly. And expectations, I really encourage entrepreneurs to take a look at their day -to -day life.
If it helps, go back and look at your calendar and see are there some activities that just sort of naturally happen.
So I'll use an example from my own book.
When I first started my business naturally, a lot of my girlfriends would always go to brunch on Sundays.
It was never something that was explicitly talked about.
It was just, well, it's Sunday and we kind of all text each other and we all go to brunch.
And that's what happens on Sundays.
And what I realized when I first started my business is, because I took a pay cut, because I didn't have a salary as I was trying to get this business off the ground, you know, those $40, $50 lunches or brunches rather, those were no longer an option.
You know, I was on a really tight budget and I couldn't do it.
So I would just say no, but I said no without an explanation.
And so people kind of were like, wow, Kim's kind of blowing us off.
And, you know, she's not coming to brunch anymore.
And what the heck? And it wasn't until I finally said to them, hey, guys, listen, you know, without going into details about finances.
But I just, you know, these these brunches are really expensive.
And when I had my cushy corporate job, that was no problem.
But now I don't have my corporate job anymore.
So I'm trying to be tighter with my money.
And I have to say, my friends were so sweet, so nice.
And they said, hey, instead of going out to brunch every single Sunday, why don't we pick a couple of brunches and all make pancakes at home?
And so they found a way to include me in a way that didn't make me feel uncomfortable or feel like I was putting anybody out.
And so I always encourage entrepreneurs to think about, even if it's not something explicit, is there something that you do every week?
Is there something that happens every week that all of a sudden if you stopped, people might be like, hey, where did they go?
Why aren't they here anymore?
What's going on there?
I think that's a great example, a great example, because on from both sides, you can see how the decision was completely rational.
And the interpretation, it just makes complete sense.
Yeah, this is more expensive.
Now I need to pull back.
Whoa, she's she's ghosting us.
What in the world? And a lot of conflicts come about because of that.
That's real. That's real.
And honestly, when I think about it in my life and within the lives of other people that I've worked with and talked to about it, it's the relationship side that's almost harder.
Because for me, I say, all right, yeah, failure is part of the process.
I know I'm going to have to sit here and work a lot of hours.
I know rejection is going to happen.
I know growth is going to take time.
I'm OK with that. It's, you know, it'll make good stories down the road when it works.
That's my mentality.
But then for our families, it's a little bit different, right?
They didn't, like you said, they didn't sign up for that.
And when that that pressure from them keeps on coming and these conversations keep happening, that endless reservoir of energy that I once had starts to become depleted very quickly.
It's like, oh, yeah, I could pull like 12 hour days pretty consistently.
My passion. I'm running on passion.
This is great. And then one difficult conversation.
I'm like, I'm broken.
I have nothing left to offer anybody.
So if for nothing else, managing these conversations with your friends and family and doing it in a healthy way and staying ahead of it makes it a lot easier for you to be your best self in your entrepreneurial journey.
Exactly. You want everybody to show up and feel comfortable and to feel like they're being heard and listened to and to know what to expect.
Absolutely. Well, great.
Now let's talk about our favorite thing about entrepreneurship when things go wrong.
And so there's so many options, so many different things we could talk about here, but I want to focus on for you the things, the challenges that came up and the conversations that surrounded them.
Like what comes to mind the most for you when you think about that?
I mean, so many situations come to mind where things went sideways, whether it was with the client, whether it was with vendors we were working with.
And I feel like I've learned a lot of hard lessons in the last 10 years of entrepreneurship.
But I think the two that stick out the most are number one, to communicate with people, not in the way that you communicate, but in the way that they communicate.
So I'll give you an example.
I have a client who is absolutely atrocious with emails, just isn't good, can't stay on top of them, not great.
But if you call them or text them, they're fabulous.
They're happy to jump on the phone right away.
And so when things went wrong, my team and I were very used to emailing, hey, this is being delayed.
And all of a sudden, because that person maybe wasn't the best at checking their email, two or three days would go by and they would say, well, what's happening?
Why is there no movement here?
And we would say, oh, we sent an email three days ago, this was being delayed.
And it would lead to friction and conflict and people being upset.
And so we had to quickly realize not how we communicate or even how the industry normalizes communication, but how does that specific person communicate?
And for them, it was picking up the phone and calling them.
Once we switched into that method, it made things much easier.
So I would say communicate with people in the way that they communicate best is going to be a huge key into getting through those hard conversations and negotiations.
And the second thing would be to really figure out before you go into any negotiation or before you get put on the spot to know that you are allowed to say, let me get back to you.
That was a lesson that it took me a long time to figure out.
I am a recovering people pleaser.
I love saying yes. I love making people happy.
I love keeping everybody in a good spot.
But I had to realize sometimes it's really powerful to take a pause and say, let me get back to you on that.
Not a yes, not no, not even maybe, but just let me get back to you on that.
Let me think on that for a second or a night or an hour or an afternoon, whatever it is, because there's power in the pause.
So if I could also leave everybody with something, it would just be remember that there is power in the pause and it is okay to pause.
Sometimes when you're negotiating or things are getting heated or people are elevating or getting excited, it's just always come back to the fact that you can always pause at any point and circle back.
These tips are so clear and simple that people might say, well, that's obvious.
And then you get into the situation and it is not.
It is anything but obvious.
And I think to your first point, understanding how people communicate, I think also being explicit about having that conversation too, because we go in with our assumptions and it's not entirely clear.
And then also recognizing that under pressure, when the people are stressed, they will revert back to their natural habits.
So you might have somebody who says, I don't like email, but you know what?
I'm going to email you, Kim, you're special.
I'll email you. And then things go sideways and now you're not hearing from them.
And so we're running into problems there.
And then also to that other point where you say, all right, I'll get back to you on that.
We have to remember that it's much easier to turn a no into a yes than a yes into a no.
And I'm the same way as a recovering people pleaser.
I know now that under pressure, my natural tendency is to say yes.
And now that I understand that that is an emotional drive that I have, oh, when I feel that probably not a legitimate thought, let me run this by people who are a little bit more objective after this conversation.
And then I'll give you my response.
And then people often ask, well, hey, what if they're pressuring me to give an answer right now?
Simple response. If you need an answer right now, the answer is no.
But if you give me some time, it might be something different.
People find just a miraculous amount of patience when they're confronted with that one.
Absolutely. It's such a powerful statement.
And I know all those fellow people pleasers, they want to say yes.
They went, okay, sure.
And I would say that that honestly bleeds into your personal life as well.
I can't tell you how many times I've woken up completely overwhelmed because not only do I have a full day of work, but I've signed up to volunteer.
I've signed up to staff the event.
And before I realized it, I'm like, oh my God, I have said yes to so many worthy causes or great things or mentoring somebody or helping somebody that it really ended up damaging myself and my goals and the work that I had wanted to accomplish for the week or the day.
So I would say you also have to guard your own goals, guard your own time.
So be very careful with your yeses.
Absolutely. No, this is great.
And before you go, what would you say is one thing that those budding entrepreneurs out there can do to find a little bit more confidence when it comes to having these difficult conversations?
Honestly, for me, confidence comes with community.
When I am surrounded by other founders who are going through the same things or leaders that are going through the same challenges as me, it gives me assurance and confidence that I can get through it too.
So one thing that I personally started to help myself with that and thankfully has ended up helping so many others as well is we meet every single Wednesday at 1 p .m.
Eastern on LinkedIn.
It's called Coffee with Kim, and it's a time where we can get that quick boost of confidence, tips, tricks from fellow founders or leaders or experts.
And I find that with that community aspect, that the confidence and being able to voice those concerns or questions that I have, it makes me feel so much better when I'm in those hard conversations.
That's great. We will put a link to your LinkedIn in the description as well, as well as with your upcoming course.
That's going to be exciting too.
So best of luck on that.
Best of skill. I stopped wishing people luck.
I wish you skill. You got it.
You're good. But Kim, really appreciate it.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited, and I'm excited to hear from all the listeners.
If you guys have questions or comments, I'm here for you.
I joke that you can always find me on Instagram.
I'm the other Kim K.
So if you start searching K -I -M -K -A, there's going to be Kim Kardashian, and then right under her is going to be me.
So I joke that I'm the Kim K with her clothes on.
There's going to be a Kim K, and there's going to be a Kim K, and that's me.
So I'm the one with the clothes on, but I'd love to hang, whether it's on Instagram or LinkedIn and help you any way I can.
Fantastic. Thanks again.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.
Just kidding. I've told you before about it.
You should listen to it again.
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I'll catch you later.
